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[thelastcrusader]

I really don't understand the confusion. Games look and run better whether you're on a 1080p or 4k display and now there's hdr. <-- I want one.

 

[DreadfulOmen]

I watched the live stream and pretty much understood what sony said. I didn't think it was that confusing. With that said, i'm not buying a one.

 

[gigantor21]

I watched the live stream and pretty much understood what sony said. I didn't think it was that confusing. With that said, i'm not buying a one.

This. The concept is very straightforward--it's a more powerful PS4 designed for 4K screens--and Sony made that point clear enough.

The execution is what I'm worried about. I was fully on board at first, but I've cooled on it a bit.

 

[kyser73]

You should've addressed my larger point. Infamous: First Light was specifically shown to demonstrate HDR and I suspect that both I:SS and I:FL being patched because they are games that will explicitly and obviously demonstrate HDR and they're already built. But the fact remains that if I buy a PS4Pro and put in I:SS and put the patch on the backburner, the game should not be run as if it was on an OG PS4.

My understanding of this situation is:

To ensure 100% compatibility with all games, PS4P uses what amounts to an emulation mode of the base PS4, because any games that use low level coding may not work correctly with the up clocked CPU and new GFX chipset. There may be other reasons as well (e.g. Memory addressing) but IIRC from dev comments on here about why Siny have done this, here's the reason.

Tl:dr Sony are more worried about people not being able to play their existing games on PS4P than giving them automatic performance improvements.

OT: Abdiel's comment pretty much sums it up - casuals& consumers find it all less confusing than forum dwellers.

 

[Ricky Ricardo]

I'm not a hardware engineer nor do I have access to a PS4Pro development kit, so attempting to address your larger point is above my pay grade. I try to stick to speaking about what I know. Ostensibly, there is a significant technical hurdle in attempting to provide the same results using different clock frequencies and differing GPU architectures.

I wonder if some insight might be gained from reading Cerny's recent patent application regarding spoofing older hardware via reduced clocks? https://patents.google.com/patent/US20160246323A1

The background alludes to the general problems faced:


XB1S' ability to run games at higher framerates by taking advantage of its higher clocks begs the obvious question as to why the same cannot be accomplished on PS4Pro. On that I've little idea.

Does XB1S' silicon utilize an updated revision of the GCN architecture? Or is it merely OG Bone's GPU shrunk down to 14nm?

Edit: Reading a bit further into the patent application, my possible suspicion and what I alluded to above in the comments about the Bone's GPU is addressed. I imagined there may be operations dependent on timings between both the GPU and CPU, and that Pro's updated GPU architecture could make synchronization all that more complicated, much moreso than a mere upclock. There may be some credence to this if XB1S's GPU is merely upclocked, as the barrier to re-synchronizing might be lower. If it is updated GCN, I'll toss my theory out the window.

My understanding of this situation is:

To ensure 100% compatibility with all games, PS4P uses what amounts to an emulation mode of the base PS4, because any games that use low level coding may not work correctly with the up clocked CPU and new GFX chipset. There may be other reasons as well (e.g. Memory addressing) but IIRC from dev comments on here about why Siny have done this, here's the reason.

Tl:dr Sony are more worried about people not being able to play their existing games on PS4P than giving them automatic performance improvements.

OT: Abdiel's comment pretty much sums it up - casuals& consumers find it all less confusing than forum dwellers.

Cheers gentlemen, I've gained some clarity on the subject now.

 

[U_Know_Me]

I got all the info I needed. All games from October on will have pro settings with higher resolutions and or more stable framerates was enough for me to pre order. Any old games that get a patch is a bonus.

 

[kyser73]

Cheers gentlemen, I've gained some clarity on the subject now.

It may well be something that Sony can address at a later stage, but it will still be more on devs to patch rather than Sony to fix via future FW updates.

 

[cakely]

Concern posting: The thread.

I changed it because yikes felt like a bigger deal.

I've been quite enjoying the more stable fps on the S, it's a great feature &#128077;

...

So you're enjoying the more stable fps of a 1.4TF console, but you're concerned that a 4.2TF console won't be a big upgrade from a 1.8TF console.

Ok.

 

[Brad Grenz]

It's truly impressive the way so many here, on Twitter and in the media have tied themselves into knots to deliberately misunderstand everything Sony has said about the Pro. How these people managed to forget everything Sony said during the PlayStation Meeting as soon as it was over beggars belief. And it has been a trying few weeks hearing people on so many games podcast claim Sony never mentioned VR benefits or what it would do for regular HDTV owners.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Asking questions that already have answers is being willfully obtuse.

You're acting like you're a victim if someone asks a question despite it having an answer out there somewhere. Damn, console shit is serious. Fuck.

 

[Mushroomer25]

Their press conference was confused, and the messaging from third parties has been pretty muted. It'll be interesting to see how it does at retail, and how Sony sells it to yhe mainstream.

 

[kyser73]

It's truly impressive the way so many here, on Twitter and in the media have tied themselves into knots to deliberately misunderstand everything Sony has said about the Pro. How these people managed to forget everything Sony said during the PlayStation Meeting as soon as it was over beggars belief. And it has been a trying few weeks hearing people on so many games podcast claim Sony never mentioned VR benefits or what it would do for regular HDTV owners.

Given how frequently I see the same thing happen in movie or TV show topics in OT I can only put it down to people not paying attention or deliberately being obtuse. I would imagine many missed the HDTV segment, for example, because they were busy posting about the HDR announcement, despite the HDTV section showing 3 examples of improved detail, IW & resolution on the screen,

 

[Head.spawn]

No Tretton, no soul.

 

[RedAssedApe]

seems like its more confusing to the hardcore than casuals lol

 

[clintar]

Wait, it downclocks itself to match ~1.84TF on unpatched games??
So you don't even get the benefit of more stable fps like you do with the Xbox One S??

Daaaamn.

I can see how you might be confused about this point. Your Xbox One S OT still says it has SATA III.

 

[platocplx]

They have a MASSIVE FAQ for People:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2016/09/08/ps4-pro-the-ultimate-faq/

They posted 4k sourced material on youtube.

Tons of impressions from people who were at the event. At this point you either get it or you are being willfully obtuse or have some agenda. Its mind-blowing how people are still acting confused.

 

[Slangblade]

So my question is since Microsoft is doing the same thing next year will people be confused about that too? lol

 

[Lion Heart]

I like how you decided to change the 'Yikes' for 'Daaaaamn' because that seemed more concerned

Did he actually? Lol shameless.

 

[kyser73]

Their press conference was confused, and the messaging from third parties has been pretty muted. It'll be interesting to see how it does at retail, and how Sony sells it to yhe mainstream.

From the first page:

Not making any difference for us in retail. We've been able to clearly communicate to our customers what so many on here seem to be willingly obtuse about. Preorders have been very solid, our in store Sony rep is already really excited about the response we've had from both new buyers and existing PS4 owners. We've been able to talk to our customers very clearly about what the product is, and there's been a positive response.

It's stunning to me how people on GAF have seemed to be almost deliberately obfuscating things for themselves, when the information has been communicated with almost agonizing specificity by Sony, and then sources like Digital Foundry provide greater clarity and specifics in technical respects.

Seriously. Blows my fucking mind.

 

[Majestic 12]

Seems the only people that are confused are the ones stuck with the much weaker alternative.

 

[bitbydeath]

All the answers are kind of obvious even without Sony saying anything cause it's kind of a 'that's how tech works deal'.

I'm surprised there is any confusion TBH.

 

[platocplx]

So my question is since Microsoft is doing the same thing next year will people be confused about that too? lol

This is the funniest part they are clear as hell on the scorpio and its capabilities a year away but the same time they dont understand hardware thats out in less than 2 months. Really wanna know what reverse psychic powers folks are using to know the distant future well but cant comprehend the near present.

 

[Kenzodielocke]

I am more confused by all the journalists being confused.

In a world with Pluses and Edges, customers wont have a tough time understanding this concept.

 

[Head.spawn]

So my question is since Microsoft is doing the same thing next year will people be confused about that too? lol

MS is going to deliver a confusing message on their hardware next year?

They were pretty clear about what Xbox One S did, launched without any issues. They were straight to the point with the Scorpio preview.

I don't see that happening.

 

[border]

The PS4 Pro is such a mild upgrade that it's difficult to come up with compelling messaging. Most people aren't going to appreciate or visually discern slightly higher resolution settings or more stable framerates. Those that can will question spending another $400 for mild-to-moderate visual upgrades.

I think most consumers will come away with the message that "This console is not for me if I don't own a 4K television."

 

[BattleMonkey]

seems like its more confusing to the hardcore than casuals lol

Exactly.

 

[icespide]

The PS4 Pro is such a mild upgrade that it's difficult to come up with compelling messaging. Most people aren't going to appreciate or visually discern slightly higher resolution settings or more stable framerates. Those that can will question spending another $400 for mild-to-moderate visual upgrades.

I think most consumers will come away with the message that "This console is not for me if I don't own a 4K television."

I think that's okay tbh

 

[Slangblade]

MS is going to deliver a confusing message on their hardware next year?

They were pretty clear about what Xbox One S did, launched without any issues. They were straight to the point with the Scorpio preview.

I don't see that happening.

Again what's so confusing about Sonys messaging? Did you understand it?

 

[kaching]

If the OP really has this much trouble understanding the PS4 Pro upsell, he must be completely flabbergasted by how PCs manage to sell for gaming. Or smartphone gaming.

 

[border]

I think that's okay tbh

The cell phone tick-tock upgrade model tends to work because cell phone manufacturers can show pretty demonstrable upgrades on a bi-annual or annual basis. If 3 years is not enough time to really produce impressive hardware with significant performance and feature upgrades, then that model might not be particularly useful for consoles.

 

[ethomaz]

I can see how you might be confused about this point. Your Xbox One S OT still says it has SATA III.

lol even after I posted saying the mistake they did.

 

[kyser73]

The cell phone tick-tock upgrade model tends to work because cell phone manufacturers can show pretty demonstrable upgrades on a bi-annual or annual basis. If 3 years is not enough time to really produce impressive hardware with significant performance and feature upgrades, then that model might not be particularly useful for consoles.

'This year's phone is twice as powerful for $100 more than the old phone' said no phone company ever.

Improvements in smartphones are even more incremental- bigger/higher res screen, improved camera, more memory, UI changes.

Do you think the OG PS4 capable of native 4K for TLOU? Pro can, and you'd never see that kind of performance difference between smartphone generations.

 

[Elios83]

Their press conference was confused, and the messaging from third parties has been pretty muted. It'll be interesting to see how it does at retail, and how Sony sells it to yhe mainstream.

The press conference was not confused at all, Mark Cerny explained all the aspects pretty well and with great clarity and no ambiguity.
The only issue was that you can't truly sell the benifts of 4K and HDR if you're not watching them in person (just like you can't sell VR through a stage demo).
About the messaging I'm not sure what you're expecting from third parties besides the fact that they will support it in their new titles and all the biggest games of this upcoming holiday season will be at their best on the Pro (at least on consoles).
They won't sell the Pro for Sony by showcasing how much worse the XB1 and PS4 versions look and run in comparison because these companies don't want to hurt their main business which is on the biggest installed base.
They must be careful about not passing the message that the non Pro version sucks in comparison, just like we don't see developers advertising by themselves how the XB1 version of their games runs at lower resolution and frame rate compared to the PS4 version. Obviously they want to sell that version as well.
We will find out about all the differences at launch also thanks to websites like DF, NXgamer,etc.
And no Sony doesn't want to sell the Pro to the mainstream, this is for the people who bought the PS4 in 2013, core gamers and early adopters, they want these people to upgrade while the mainstream market will pick the Slim up and combining sales and profits of both, they plan to a have a merry christmas LOL.

 

[mckmas8808]

It's so weird watching this 'confusion' narrative while at the same time understanding what Sony has said about the Pro. I get the feeling this is being thrown at the wall in the hope it sticks.

Are people really confused or are they acting this way to troll?

 

[Dr_LucienSanchez]

Wait, it downclocks itself to match ~1.84TF on unpatched games??
So you don't even get the benefit of more stable fps like you do with the Xbox One S??

Daaaamn.

You certainly are a fascinating poster.

 

[nillah]

Nah, the extra layer on the Quad's frame speaks for itself.

 

[mike6467]

Are people really confused or are they acting this way to troll?

I mean, Jeff Gerstmann recently commented that the messaging over the PS4 Pro was a mess. I'm not claiming he's the benchmark, but he is well respected and not stupid. I didn't think the Sony stuff was horribly confusing, but to say it was crystal clear and that anyone who disagrees is trolling is a bit extreme.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

This is the funniest part they are clear as hell on the scorpio and its capabilities a year away but the same time they dont understand hardware thats out in less than 2 months. Really wanna know what reverse psychic powers folks are using to know the distant future well but cant comprehend the near present.

This is what gets me laughing the most honestly

 

[border]

'This year's phone is twice as powerful for $100 more than the old phone' said no phone company ever.

Phone companies iterate annually - of course they can't double computing power in such a short time span. That model works though because there are a billion or more potential smartphone customers, so there's always someone looking for an upgrade (especially since the subsidy model has pushed most people towards a 2 year refresh cycle anyway). The smaller userbase for consoles means there's less room for iterative hardware though.

Do you think the OG PS4 capable of native 4K for TLOU? Pro can, and you'd never see that kind of performance difference between smartphone generations.

TLOU was written to run on hardware designed and manufactured in 2005/2006. It only makes sense that it should see some huge performance boosts, given that it benefits from more than a decade of technological progression. It's entirely unfair to compare it to year-to-year performance gains on cell phones.

Not to mention that upgrades to the PS4 Pro are heavily contingent on customers that have purchased a 4K television. Phone manufacturers have to eat the cost of upgrading the display, rather than deferring that cost to the customer......so it becomes more difficult to deliver cutting-edge silicon when you also have to pay for a cutting-edge display.

 

[leng jai]

Are people really confused or are they acting this way to troll?

It's pretty absurd to dismiss everyone's confusion as trolling.

 

[onanie]

It's pretty absurd to dismiss everyone's confusion as trolling.

But I thought you said you're not confused. Who's confused in here?

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

It's pretty absurd to dismiss everyone's confusion as trolling.

Considering how this place has been since the announcement it's a valid assumption to make

 

[icespide]

I'm confused about who is actually confused

 

[WhiskerFrisker]

You're acting like you're a victim if someone asks a question despite it having an answer out there somewhere. Damn, console shit is serious. Fuck.

Most of the time they go on about "what's the point of a Pro when you can just get a powerful PC." "Sony wasted time and resources on the Pro." This is what I'm referring to as people being full of shit. Not legitimate questions.

 

[Head.spawn]

Again what's so confusing about Sonys messaging? Did you understand it?

Were you 100% sure about what they meant when they clearly stated "4k" over and over during their presentation? Do you think they did a good job clearing it up with the press? Their attempts since then have mentioned "magic" a few times, are you sure what that means? Lots of people assumed checkerboard, but apparently that isn't exactly what is going on and it might be related to a recent Cerny patent.

Cerny has a presentation to clear this up coming soon apparently, but it certainly wasn't in their initial reveal.

You can see how not being direct and possibly misleading can be a bit confusing for some, right? I don't think it's mass hysteria.
........

Anyways the point of my reply, I was just wondering why someone thought the Scorpio stuff next year is anyway related to this. When asked about 4k, MS said "Native 4k" for their Scorpio launch titles. They seem to be trying to keep things simple and clear lately, so next year I expect the same. Hopefully when they do their conference, they release nice quality 4k HDR examples of what they are pushing. Give a clear plan on how they intend on updating existing games, a timeframe and an official list of games coming along for the ride.

 

[Aces&Eights]

I think "better graphics" is all you need to sell people on it. How much of that is universal is moot. It will play all existing PS4 games; it will make some number >zero look better, even for those who haven't bought TVs in the past 5 years.

Not the hardest $100 upsell in gaming.

Lol, people just like to see those numbers go up.

OT I don't see how there is any real confusion. It was made pretty clear what the Pro will do (and not do) for a consumer, be it, a new console buyer, an existing PS4 owner upgrading, those who have 1080p TVs and those who have/will be getting a 4K TV.

I already traded in my launch PS4 and will be getting the Pro day 1. I will enjoy the upscaling on games for a few months on my current Sammy then come Jan of next year I am grabbing a 4K. I plan on making Horizon Zero Dawn the very first game I play on the new 4k TV. I suspect it will be a great experience and a decent upgrade from what I was experiencing this last summer on ole betsy and my 4 year old 1080p.

 

[leng jai]

But I thought you said you're not confused. Who's confused in here?

Do you have issues with reading comprehension?

 

[StrongBlackVine]

It's pretty absurd to dismiss everyone's confusion as trolling.

I just look at the username and avatar to decide who is serious and who is trolling.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

I really don't see where the confusion is. The PS4 pro is a new shiny box that will bring improvements to some of your favourite titles on a case by case basis. It has limited benefits for the 4k owner and is a half step between now and the PS5 which is designed to prolong a successful generation for Sony.

It's not a magic bullet and if you can deal with not having the latest and greatest, it really isn't necessary.

 

[mckmas8808]

I mean, Jeff Gerstmann recently commented that the messaging over the PS4 Pro was a mess. I'm not claiming he's the benchmark, but he is well respected and not stupid. I didn't think the Sony stuff was horribly confusing, but to say it was crystal clear and that anyone who disagrees is trolling is a bit extreme.

And yet at the Sametime Jeff said if people really wanted a graphics upgrade they should get a PC for $1,500 since that's a worthy upgrade.

And said he's not sure who the PS4 Pro is for. As if $400 isn't massively less than $1,500.