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Spain shatters two-party rule, Europe watches as it turns into an ungovernable mess

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Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Thread update 1: New elections will take place in a couple of days, so here's the low-down.
Thread update 2: Results are in. It's still a damn fine mess.

Word of advice: Long post (I didn't think it was going to be this brutal, but politics are complicated).

This Sunday over 30 million of Spanish citizens were called to the polls so they could give continuation to almost 40 years of shit governance and cunty politicians. It was a momentous event --not just because the country is in a sorry state after being ravaged by the crisis, but because the current duocracy born after the dissolution of Franco's regime was meant to come to an abrupt halt as the old parties crumbled apart and new ones rose from the void. Recent news clippings talk about abject screams in the Senate's corridors and mysterious, desperate snorting noises emanating from the restrooms. Chants of "Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Throne of Moncloa!" were reported by the janitors. The remains of a disembowelled goat were found at the steps of the lions outside the Spanish Congress.

A new political party would rise up to claim the presidency after more than three decades of bipartisan alternation.

Or not. Shit happens.

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That's right, the conservatives won the elections again, but this time the political map is the fiercest dumpster fire since the fall of Havana. Conservatives managed to retain the biggest amount of MPs per party, but this pyrrhic victory came at a huge cost as the social democrats got crushed and two new parties came in with enough strength to prevent any group from forming a new government.

Each party hates the fuck out of the rest, and those who wouldn't like to see them drown, would absolutely adore to behead their respective leaders before shaking hands and picking a new president. To put it simply, while the two party rule has been finally crushed in the Congress (not the Senate, where the PP still savours a supermajority), no credible government can be born.

Both the PP and the PSOE know they'll be toast if they agree to a grand neoliberal-social democrat coalition, the new left will only sit at the table if they agree to some extremely (and potentially party-destroying) unpleasant reforms and the new right sneakily asks the social democrats to allow an incredibly fragile conservative government that could collapse in short time. A gigantic leftist coalition could oust the PP, but chances of that happening are slim to none.

While Italians may be familiar with this shit show and require no further explanation, Americans could think of the situation as a far fetched scenario in which Libertarians and Berners carried enough popular support to ruin the GOP and Democrat's plans for getting close to the presidency, yet not enough to reach the White House by themselves.

As of now, the future of Spain is set to auto pilot. We are not quite in Belgian territory yet, but we're trying. Fun times are ahead for both Spain and the EU.


So what's so important about the Spanish general elections?

Spain is the fourth biggest economy in the Eurozone and thus holds significant sway in the EU. Also, Germans and Cameron enjoy vacationing here. This means that the Prime Ministers of the 28 member states, plus Dijsselbloem and his wretched minions were paying extra attention to whatever fuckery just happened here. Because you know, the country is kind of in a bin after 8 years of galloping crisis and people in other member states could get ideas.

I'm not going to bother explaining how it came to this since that would be ponderous -and pissing- enterprise, so I'll just refer you to Aleix Saló's Apecracy and Spainistan animated short films, which are funny, easy to understand and don't indulge too much in the usual scapegoating.

The thing is, although the situation in Spain has stabilised, shit is Rough with a capital R. Unemployment rate is somewhat (nominally) improving but remains over 20%, with close to 50% of the young (>25 years old) population jobless, 1/3 of children living in poverty and salaries cut so thinly many people are barely making ends.


The current administration has managed to stop the bleeding by engaging in an oddly interpreted version of austerity consisting in trashing public services while increasing public borrowing up the wazoo, which coupled with the softening of the real estate crisis has allowed Spain not to crash and burn like Greece. Structural problems remain the same if not bigger, however, which means that a new financial downturn would send Spain to the pits. And you can bet your sweet butt cheeks there's not enough money in the EU to bail us out. If Greece was Hiroshima, Spain would be the Tsar Bomb.


A not so brief summary of the situation

Anyway, Spain's politics more or less dictate that two parties disputed the government: the conservative PP and the social democrat PSOE. Both of them are corrupt to the core and accumulate enough dirt to keep this low rent version of House of Cards going on for ages. For decades, the population has been kicking one out to enthrone the other in a wonderful exercise of cutting the nose to spite the face, as if that could fix things in any meaningful way. Then, the 15M happened.

Out of nowhere, people pissed off of corruption and political incompetence rushed to the biggest squares and organised massive protests that took the establishment by surprise. It kind of died out over the following months (and boy, its deflation was such a lame sight), but fresh political seeds were planted. The disenfranchised and the pissed off resolved that voting the same assholes every four years wasn't the solution. There was a problem, however: there were no credible alternatives at the time. To make things more difficult, the PSOE basically committed political suicide by embracing austerity and left the conservatives to run the country with a rolling supermajority which allowed them to do as they pleased. And turns out that what pleases the conservatives pisses off the commoners like you couldn't imagine. Tax amnesties for the rich and corrupt at the same time taxes were being increased across the board, regressive laws an horrifyingly poor management of the banking crisis, pro-big business labour reforms... the works.

But then something magical happened. Decades of political dirt nurtured the seeds planted by the disenfranchised a few years ago, which soiled by the pissing contest that is Spanish politics, blossomed into new political contenders. Where there were two now there are four, and thus the duopoly of Spanish politics comes to a fiery end. So the polls say.


The Parties

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Right now there are four main political parties as opposed to the old two, plus a number of smaller ones which are expected to get only a tiny fraction of the votes.

PP (Partido Popular)

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Factoids: Born from the ashes of AP, which was formed by the "liberal" wing of the late Franco regime itself. Neoconservative, adscribed to the European People's Party. Corporate friendly. Styled itself after the GOP when Aznar became president and realized that nationalcatholicism was no longer hip. Mostly concerned with the economy and keeping Spain together. Proclaim the gospel of trickle down economics and austerity. Currently in power.

They curbstomped the social democrats at the last elections, obtaining a supermajority that used to great effect. Alas, they have managed to piss off so many people in the process that their MP count has received a veritable trashing, going from 186 MPs to 123; their worst result since 1989.

The good: Spain didn't fully collapse under their administration and roving gangs of cannibals don't rule the streets. So there's that.
The bad: We could use a new thread for that. Their corporations/banks-first approach to the economy managed to avoid a complete collapse of the country, but further eroded the middle and lower classes. They've been involved in more political and financial scandals that you can count.
The stereotype: Love foetuses, hate homos. They care about the economy, just not your economy. Most of them have a seat lined up at a massive corporation (probably an energy-related one) by the time their political careers end. They may or may have not have a father who used to order executions after the Civil War. Real Madrid fans.


PSOE (Partido Socialista Obrero Español)

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Factoids: Former socialists turned social democrats turned third way social democrats, turned full time jackasses. Repped in Europe by the Party of European Socialists. Embroiled in as many political and financial scandals as the PP. Genetically predisposed to turncoating. Claim to be for the people, but tend to put business interest first when push comes to shove. They claim they will try to fix the Catalonian issue by moving Spain's regional organization towards a barely explained federalist model. Socially progressive (helps with branding!).

The PSOE got absolutely savaged during the 2012 elections but you can always trust them to make even a bigger mess at difficult times, so they managed to embarrass themselves even further by achieving their WORST RESULT EVER with a 110 to 90 MPs drop. And it could have been much, much worse had not been for the peculiar way in which votes are translated to MPs.

The good: Legalised same-sex marriage. Very strongly pro-choice. They were cool back when bell-bottoms were popular.
The bad: The crisis exploded right under their feet and didn't notice it until one year later, when they did a 180 turn and embraced austerity. Massively corrupt, unsurpassedly inept. Rife with internal disputes. They are still undecided on Catalonia after four decades of skull bashing.
The stereotype: That lazy high school principal that can't fund a new computer lab because he keeps siphoning money away so he can coke himself to high heaven when nobody is looking. Most of them have a seat lined up at a massive corporation (probably an energy-related one) by the time their political careers end. Used to love subsidies, but now they are down with austerity. Half of them are lazy andalusians, the other half are lazy extremeños. They really like to talk about the Civil War for some reason. Part of the Gay Agenda.


C's (Ciudadanos)

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Factoids: C's is one of the new parties that has come to mess the whole picture by bringing a whole lot of new, younger faces to the political arena. It started as a plucky, somewhat progressive Catalonian party with both leftist and neoliberal tendencies staunchly opposed to Catalonian separatism until the neoliberal wing quickly purged the leftist one and turned the party into its current self. It stumbled around for a bit (actually, it predates the 15M) before going turbo and pillaging the PP's base. It's part of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe.

C's is very much about the economy and the sacrosanct unity of Spain. It styles itself as some kind third way liberal party in the European fashion, whereas the PP is old, moldy and reeks of creepy Catholic priest. It is more or less liberal on social issues, although more recently it has had a number of high profile snafus in its quest to reach to the conservative voter, particularly when addressing domestic violence and reproductive rights. C's has excellent connections to the biggest Spanish corporations, which has led to be known among leftist circles as the IBEX 35 party. The media is in love with them, though. Some journalists claim that certain power players in the economy are propping them as the inevitable replacement of the PP.

The good: Strong focus on education and science. Fresh new faces. Secular-ish. Non hysterical brand of liberal-progressiveness, which is unheard of in Spain.
The bad: Their unambiguously neoliberal economic policies have been written with the help of a FAES fellow, which casts a lot of shadows over the party's real allegiances. Politically untested in the big leagues. Nobody knows where they really stand on social issues. Already involved in some minor scandals.
The stereotype: Ciudadanos' candidates are not born, but manufactured in bulk. They are all young, pretty, well dressed and identical, probably the result of a PP's secret experiment to create pod people and perpetuate their rule under different, more attractive bodies. They also know the best yayo dealers in town.


Podemos

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Factoids: Oh boy, this is a fun one. Founded in 2014 by a bunch of academics of some note (as wild as it may sound, it's actually a party started by university teachers) Podemos is the youngest mainstream political faction and the New Left Sensation that seduces Europe™. It's kind of a meta-party in the sense that there's Spain-wide Podemos and a number of smaller affiliates with similar and inspiring names that are backing Podemos Proper along some local parties with overlapping aims. At some point IU was meant to join them (see bonus track) but they were laughed off/told each other to GTFO depending on who you ask.

Of all the aspiring parties, Podemos is the one who have managed to capitalize the current anti-establishment feeling the most. This has put them in a bit of a pickle. They began as a borderline neocommunist party with some REALLY funny friends (some of their higher ups worked as foreign consultants for Chavez and similar luminaries) with some wildly anti-NATO rhetoric, but quickly realised that they needed to temper their spiel if they really wanted to be other than another joke party. This path towards political moderation nearly turned into political disaster when the hardest, nuttiest leftist elements (buh-bye) accused them of being capitalist plants, but after a short period of upheaval and some totally moderate, absolutely democratic purges (I haven't heard anything against them, but maybe that's because dissenters were sent to the gulag, I mean UP), Podemos transitioned to its current form and began seducing more moderate politicians and voters, which evened their former revolutionary temper. They used to be BFF with Greece's Syriza, but they no longer want to talk about it. On the Catalonian issue, Podemos is the only mainstream party that supports a referendum -the official line is one of adhesion to Spain with increased levels of autonomy.

Podemos has managed to amass a surprising amount of votes and big names during the past few months. What started as the FU response to the PP and PSOE telling 15-M demonstrators "lol, get a party, you hippies" has taken conservatives by surprise and come scarily close to roll over the PSOE to become the second biggest party in Spain. They started as a bit of a post-modern joke. Now they are a force to be reckoned.

The good: Super strong focus on social issues and education, strong focus on science*, transparency and separation of powers. Strongly secular. As socially liberal as they come.
The bad: Terrible friends (seemingly forgotten, but you'd never know). Highly personalistic. Some certifiable members who cannot be purged (shout out to Monedero). *Silly positions on things such as GMO crops. Politically untested. Dear Owen Jones, shut the fuck up already.
The stereotype: That insufferable teacher you had at the uni who couldn't stop yapping about Engels and Chomsky but probably drove an Audi paid with the money he earned under the table working in secret for North Korea. Hate ties, love cheap button shirts. CUT YOUR HAIR, HIPPIES.



Bonus track

UP (Unidad Popular)

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Factoids: Hard left party mostly composed of decrepit communists, career politicians and a few well meaning but ultimately lost left wingers coming from IU (Izquierda Unida) and other smaller, even more insignificant groups. They've been worthless for the past decades. The party became comfortable acting as third wheel in PSOE-ruled regions, so when Podemos came in, they got the Nacho Vidal-graded butt fuck they were aching for. They walked away from the elections with two miserious MPs (although in all fairness, they got fucked over in second instance by a highly politicised electoral system).

The good: Super strong focus on social issues and education and separation of powers. Strongly secular. As socially liberal as they come.
The bad: Inept. Massively disconnected from their target. Unwilling to compromise (unless they get their cut). Some significant political scandals. Ridden with career politicians who've been huffing and puffing about BRINGING THE REAL CHANGE since May 1968.
The stereotype: All the imaginable tropes from old timey eurocommunists. All of them.

---post will continue in #2---
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
The Candidates

Welcome to the Spanish version of the Thunderdome, where five men enter and nobody leaves.

Mariano Rajoy (PP)

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At 60 years old, the current president of Spain is the oldest of all the candidates. A confessed social darwinist back in the 80's, he got into politics out of pure luck and kind of kept falling upwards until today. His presidency has been surrounded by countless high-profile scandals, including him being at the receiving end of over a million euros coming from a slush fund financed by corporations. He addresses the press corps from flat screen displays when confronted with bad news and his recipe to deal with the crisis (blaming the PSOE, putting corrupt banks before the people, cutting social services while borrowing like mad and being socially regressive as fuck) has accrued to him Torquemada-levels of affection among most Spaniards. His pyrrhic victory is the result of the PP dominating the +65 voting base and an electoral system designed to empower the two parties with the largest amounts of votes.
Probably heard saying: "I have a modest proposal".


Pedro Sánchez (PSOE)

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Look at this sexy hunk. Look at him. That's the face of a loser about to be drawn and quartered by his own party. Picked to represent the PSOE due to his good looks and TV-friendly persona (and because his rivals just plain sucked), he was paraded around TV programmes in order to grab the homemaker vote and at some point styled himself as Pdro Snchz so the Int3rn3t K1dz would take him seriously. That went well. He had a chance to sign a Faustian bargain with Rajoy and work a two-party government, but he blew it during the debate. Now not only the PP hates the fuck out of him, but also his own party. He only got where he got due to the electoral system and his significant sway among people in their 50s and some rural regions. Whatever happens, he's probably gone from the leadership.
Probably heard saying: "This is fine".


Albert Rivera (C's)

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He's young, he's charming, he's the media's darling. First and foremost anti-separatist and pro-business, he managed to take Ciudadano's leadership after the inner purges that evicted the more progressive members of the party. Until the elections, his entire political career was reduced to counter Catalonian separatism with a homegrown unionist alternative that earned him massive cred in much of Spain and turned him into some kind of cartoon villain among separatist circles. Rivera has been playing a coy game trying his best to portray Ciudadanos as a moderate version of the PP, which has worked to a not insignificant degree by surgically removing much of their younger vote and seducing large numbers of business owners. Alas, his amateur hour approach to issues such as healthcare financing and violence against women fucked him over near the end of the sprint. But he'll get better at it with some more coaching. He's so dreamy~
Probably heard saying: "Single corporate tax rate, infinite revenue!".


Pablo Iglesias (Podemos)

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Named after the founder of the Spanish Socialist Party himself, "the pony-tailed one" is one of the most polarising figures in Spanish politics. As one of the founders of Podemos, he exercises impressive (some would say possessive) control over the party as he made sure to neuter any internal opposition so he could run a well oiled political machine surrounded only by a group of similar thinking persons. Former teacher of Political Science at the UCM and fellow of the non-partisan anticapitalist think tank Fundación CEPS, which worked as advisor to Hugo Chavez's government (but also the Spanish government itself, as Podemos' secretariat is quick to point), Iglesias has replaced his old virulent and inflammatory rhetoric with a cheery and refreshingly positive discourse with mass appeal in dire times. Although undeniably arrogant and full of himself (I mean, he's a university teacher), he's also a very quick thinker ready to evolve his discourse to a borderline insincere degree. The hero the 15M deserves.
Probably heard saying: "You sound like a Trotskyist".

Alberto Garzón (UP)

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Young, soft spoken and probably the most sincere man of the bunch. He's almost universally on point when it comes to social issues and the structural weakness of Spain, but he's also being remote controlled by a bunch of decrepit and morally bankrupt eurocommunists with negative mainstream appeal. Weak. He's the the main reason UP still exists, but also the main reason it got rolled.
Probably heard saying: "Please understand".



------------------------------------------------

What a mess. So what now?

Now we wait. This time the new players managed to get enough popular support to break though an electoral system characterised by unfair counting methods and regional demarcation that amount to a soft form of gerrymandering, which is an enormous feat, but not enough to erect a new status quo from the ruins of the old one. The Congress will have two months to find a new president and if that doesn't happen, Spaniards will be called to the polls one more time. This will be one of the rare occasions in which the King will have to work to earn his lobster and state-subsidised philandering escapades.

Nobody knows what the heck could happen if Spain goes for a second round, but this is a high stakes game and all parties are risking a lot. The smallest mistake could annihilate whatever support they have left (maybe with the exception of the PP due to their dying but still rock-solid support). The current theory is that PP and PSOE could sacrify their leadership in order to replace Rajoy with a less polarising conservative, but that could spend the PSOE's political capital and reinforce the current notion of both parties being different sides of the same coin. A minority government would be fairly stable, but also neutered and could change the political discourse in ugly ways. Numbers would make a vote of no confidence very unlikely, which could force some parties to be louder and angrier in order to keep their numbers high during the next four years.

This is going to end in tears no matter what (and I love it).


But Funky, you sound so bitter. Y U SO MAD?

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TLDR version: Sorry, this is an EuroGAF/PoliGAF mashup. Look for a different thread.

---This thread will be revisited in the following two months for the amusement of the rest of Euro-GAF.
 
Same just happened in Portugal in October

the Center-Right and Right coalition where unable to win a majority and got awarded a minority.

All the other parties to the Left banded together Socialists (Center-Left), Left Block (far left), Commies (far left) to make a Left Coalition


*the Socialists in Portugal of today are just vanilla establishment like many of Europe's standard establishment Socialist parties. But the Left Block and the Commies are hardlined Lefto nut jobs.
 

obin_gam

Member
Coming from a country that already have several big parties in government (Sweden), I dont see what the big issue is.
The more different opinions the better. Two-party-systems are horrible.
 

Mael

Member
Ungovernable mess?
Coalition is a better way than just 1 party doing whatever the fuck it wants.
Compromises should be the way to rule instead of rule from above.
 
Ungovernable mess?
Coalition is a better way than just 1 party doing whatever the fuck it wants.
Compromises should be the way to rule instead of rule from above.

I disagree, because coalitions think "short term"

a strong majority government does decision "long term" some times you got get the ball moving forwards

my opinions is not about Right vs Left. It's about getting things done.

Coalition governments do lots of pandering, and toss short term candy around thinking it solves anything
 

Leonsito

Member
Great thread!

The only way out of this mess is PSOE abstence for Rajoy, that would destroy PSOE, and with UP integrating in Podemos would create finally a real leftist force in Spain.

But to be honest I'm prepared to vote again in March.

Also, Fuck Ciudadanos and Fuck liberalism, it's a cancer for the people.
 

Nabbis

Member
Coming from a country that already have several big parties in government (Sweden), I dont see what the big issue is.
The more different opinions the better. Two-party-systems are horrible.

Different opinions yet the result is a clusterfuck that serves no one? Multi-party-systems are horrible as well. Pick your poison.
 

Ledhead

Member
Oh man what an OT. I have little to no knowledge of Spain's political scene, and this was a really entertaining read. Good job OP
 

Mael

Member
I disagree, because coalitions think "short term"

a strong majority government does decision "long term" some times you got get the ball moving forwards

my opinions is not about Right vs Left. It's about getting things done.

Coalition governments do lots of pandering, and toss short term candy around thinking it solves anything
That also happens with a 2 party system.
Politician never think "long term", they think "next election".
Last time anyone here thought "long term" they were punished with the Senate going to the opposition especially BECAUSE they thought "long term".
This "Fuck compromise" let me do whatever the fuck I want is even more harmful than trying to make everyone happy and failing.
On top of that, coalition usually means we avoid having only 1 guy being the face of the party and basically being unopposed to push his/her agenda.
2 party system barely works in the US, it sure as hell haven't proven to work in the EU.

As far as France goes, for example, 2 party system doesn't work and is clearly not something that the population is happy to have.
 
I used to be partial to Podemos until a Venezuelan expat I know said that the party seems to be disturbingly like Hugo Chavez's party. "Same roles, different actors" was an exact line he said. How true is this?
 
I don't know any Spanish politics, so I was expecting some young, loud far-right "we're totally not nazis, really" party to show up. It seems to me that ideologically, some of those parties could cooperate, but pride and stupidity seems to be a problem.
 
That also happens with a 2 party system.
Politician never think "long term", they think "next election".
Last time anyone here thought "long term" they were punished with the Senate going to the opposition especially BECAUSE they thought "long term".
This "Fuck compromise" let me do whatever the fuck I want is even more harmful than trying to make everyone happy and failing.
On top of that, coalition usually means we avoid having only 1 guy being the face of the party and basically being unopposed to push his/her agenda.
2 party system barely works in the US, it sure as hell haven't proven to work in the EU.
as a dual citizen of Canada and Portugal; (Portugal is living the same political scenario as Spain):
I have very little trust in the Left Bloc and the Commies.

1st, they award candy to Public Service Workers, 2nd they award candy to Public Service Workers, 3rd they award candy again to Public Service Workers.

eeeeeshhh, aaahh while regular folks who are not the public serctor get the shaft.


Poor Portugal

Poor Spain.

Both neighboring countries are so fucked
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Ungovernable mess?
Coalition is a better way than just 1 party doing whatever the fuck it wants.
Compromises should be the way to rule instead of rule from above.

Coming from a country that already have several big parties in government (Sweden), I dont see what the big issue is.
The more different opinions the better. Two-party-systems are horrible.

Coalitions are super common in Spain, but this time the rules are different. PSOE+PP would mean political suicide for one (or both) of the parties, and you just can't mathematically put together a leftist front capable of ruling the country.

The country may find its foot in just a few days (I'm being generous here), but lots of heads are going to roll before and after that. It is going to be a bloodbath that will change the political landscape for decades to come.

Also, you seem to believe that parties could set their own interest aside and work together for the betterment of the country. That's a huge mistake. But it's easy to see why French and Swedes would think that way. Italians will probably empathize more.
 
Over dramatic tittle :p

I just love how Ciudadanos was overhyped by polls and the media. It felt really short of being anything more than UPyD on stereroids.

This a good sign for Spain´s democracy, anyway. Adjusments were necessary.

I used to be partial to Podemos until a Venezuelan expat I know said that the party seems to be disturbingly like Hugo Chavez's party. "Same roles, different actors" was an exact line he said. How true is this?

Like it or not, Chavez improved the life of millions of poor people who were neglected during decades. It fucked a part of the high middle class, yes, but the overall quality of life in the country improved, or at least the UN believes so.
 

Alrus

Member
I mean, Belgium managed to scramble together seemingly working governments that haven't imploded yet after that long messy period of fuckery, so this might not be as hopeless as you make it seem. Multi-party coalition from various ends of the spectrum aren't always a bad thing.

Mind you I'm not very familiar with Spanish politics :/
 

Mugsy

Member
Pedro Sánchez (PSOE)

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He had a chance to work a Faustian bargain with Rajoy and work a two-party government, but he blew it during the debate. Now not only the PP hates the fuck out of him now, but also his own party. He only got where he got due to the electoral system and his significant sway among people in their 50s and some rural regions. Whatever happens, he's probably gone from the leadership.

What exactly happened during the debate that made everyone hate him?
 

Cynar

Member
I disagree, because coalitions think "short term"

a strong majority government does decision "long term" some times you got get the ball moving forwards

my opinions is not about Right vs Left. It's about getting things done.

Coalition governments do lots of pandering, and toss short term candy around thinking it solves anything
As a Canadian some of our best laws and practices have come from coalition governments. Those have been long term. You know this. :p
 

barnone

Member
Also, Fuck Ciudadanos and Fuck liberalism, it's a cancer for the people.

What's wrong with the liberalism in Spain? genuinely curious. I read a lot of the post and it seems like politicians and corruption are more the problem. I've never read about Spanish politics btw.
 
Coming from a country that already have several big parties in government (Sweden), I dont see what the big issue is.
The more different opinions the better. Two-party-systems are horrible.

I agree but if the two party system turns into something like germany (none of the coalition option works so the two big parties work together as the grand coalition) it becomes really horrible.
Coalitions are super common in Spain, but this time the rules are different. PSOE+PP would mean political suicide for one (or both) of the parties, and you just can't mathematically put together a leftist front capable of ruling the country.
germany is already doing it. i think in the long term its really hurting democracy.
 
Ciudadanos sounds like the best option to me if it comes to another vote. Socially liberal and economically neoliberal is exactly what I would want in a party.
 

Mael

Member
as a dual citizen of Canada and Portugal; (Portugal is living the same political scenario as Spain):
I have very little trust in the Left Bloc and the Commies.

1st, they award candy to Public Service Workers, 2nd they award candy to Public Service Workers, 3rd they award candy again to Public Service Workers.

eeeeeshhh, aaahh while regular folks who are not the public serctor get the shaft.


Poor Portugal

Poor Spain.

Both neighboring countries are so fucked

And that have nothing to do with a 2 party system working or not.
The Left does the same in France and that's pretty much how they won last time (well actually it was more because the candidate's name didn't start with S but you get the point).
Clientelism is a very real problem and is made even worse when it's a 2 party system, because then you're left with either vote for them, against them or stay home.
But as last election showed in France, we don't like 2 party system.
Our constitution isn't made for it, our political system isn't tailored for it either (it's made for and by De Gaulle but that's another can I don't want to open).
The opposition is really everyone that is not the majority and that is never going to be just 1 party.

Coalitions are super common in Spain, but this time the rules are different. PSOE+PP would mean political suicide for one (or both) of the parties, and you just can't mathematically put together a leftist front capable of ruling the country.

The country may find its foot in just a few days (I'm being generous here), but lots of heads are going to roll before and after that. It is going to be a bloodbath that will change the political landscape for decades to come.

Also, you seem to believe that parties could set their own interest aside and work together for the betterment of the country. That's a huge mistake. But it's easy to see why French and Swedes would think that way. Italians will probably empathize more.

We will see, worst case we end up in a situation like Belgium a few years ago.
If they're politician by trade they'll work out a compromise.
Forcing a 2 party system in a country not "ready" for it would be worse than a coalition system, that's for sure.
I don't see what's bad about the bold really.
 
Like it or not, Chavez improved the life of millions of poor people who were neglected during decades. It fucked a part of the high middle class, yes, but the overall quality of life in the country improved, or at least the UN believes so.

I'm sorry but no. While this may have been true during the previous decade, it isn't anymore. Mass food and basic good shortages, a crashed economy, and now 73% of the nation lives in poverty rather than 27%. Not to mention the parties mass authoritarian tendencies. Those are the things the person I was talking about referred to.
 
What's wrong with the liberalism in Spain? genuinely curious. I read a lot of the post and it seems like politicians and corruption are more the problem. I've never read about Spanish politics btw.

Outside of US politics liberalism / neoliberalism means "fiscally liberal" as in corpo lovers. Or at least thats what I think the person you quoted means by liberalism.
 

TeddyBoy

Member
This is a great OP.

So is there a chance Partido Popular runs a minority government? They still have a majority so can put through laws in a case by case basis (apologies if this was covered, I wasn't very familiar with the political landscape in Spain until this very thread).
 
Outside of US politics liberalism / neoliberalism means "fiscally liberal" as in corpo lovers. Or at least thats what I think the person you quoted means by liberalism.
Liberalism is a dirty word among the Far-Left in Europe. (Economic Liberalism and or neoliberalism)

Liberalism is a dirty word among the Right in USA (Social Liberalism)
 
I'm sorry but no. While this may have been true during the previous decade, it isn't anymore. Mass food and basic good shortages, a crashed economy, and now 73% of the nation lives in poverty rather than 27%. Not to mention the parties mass authoritarian tendencies. Those are the things the person I was talking about referred to.

Thats why I said Chavez, not Maduro. And the single study you refer to back that number is faulty at best. And well, the UN and their HDI thinks otherwise. I doubt Venezuela would get a higher HDI number than Brazil or Mexico if 73% of its population was in poverty.
 

KEKOXP

Neo Member
What's wrong with the liberalism in Spain? genuinely curious. I read a lot of the post and it seems like politicians and corruption are more the problem. I've never read about Spanish politics btw.

Liberalism is normally used here in Spain as a euphemism for privatize public hospitals, schools and thing like that. Selling them to their friends and doing "dark" business.
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I used to be partial to Podemos until a Venezuelan expat I know said that the party seems to be disturbingly like Hugo Chavez's party. "Same roles, different actors" was an exact line he said. How true is this?

There's some truth to that. Podemos' founders worked as advisors for Venezuela, IIRC mostly dealing with some social reform aspects of his rule. The party was RAH-RAH-RAH Chavez mad at some initial point, but they learned to STFU about it when they realised that would bring them nowhere. Monedero in particular is still crazier than a bag of wet cats, although he has become a bit of a mascot these days.

With that said, Podemos has changed a lot in record time. Just as the party swole, more people with a range of different opinions filled the ranks, meaning that crazy levels were eveneed. Also, the most ardent anticapitalist elements left the party after Iglesias decided to take a turn towards moderate positions. It also helps that most of their initial beliefs were straight up infeasible and they needed to present a proper, actuable platform for the elections. Still, they have more skeletons than a Cambodian killing field.

EG: Podemos was furiously anti-NATO at first, but calmed down at record speed and enlisted a highly decorated former Chief of the Defence Staff as potential Defence Minister when they realised that they just can't break away. Their current platform calls for a strong European army in order to reduce Spain and Europe's reliance on NATO while respecting the current agreements until an exit strategy is found.


Over dramatic tittle :p

I mean, Belgium managed to scramble together seemingly working governments that haven't imploded yet after that long messy period of fuckery, so this might not be as hopeless as you make it seem.
Well, I am playing it for the lulz ;) I tried to make the thread as humorous as I could not to bore Euro/PoliGAF too much.

I don't see what's bad about the bold really.
Oh, I actually yearn for it. I just don't want the political discourse getting crazier than it already is. Things are going to get really bad (or at least remain terrible) before they get better.

What exactly happened during the debate that made everyone hate him?
He went in with accusations of corruption and resorted to personal insults in a harsh and unexpected way. That ruined any chances the PSOE had to stablish a grand coalition with the PP without looking like a bunch of servile idiots. His performance was also terrible and reinforced the notion of his party being just the same dog with a different leash.

What's wrong with the liberalism in Spain? genuinely curious. I read a lot of the post and it seems like politicians and corruption are more the problem. I've never read about Spanish politics btw.
Communism leads to totalitarianism just like exacerbated economic liberalism leads to crony capitalism. Both require societies with finely aligned ideals in order to operate without going terrible, and that doesn't seem possible. Spanish corruption exacerbates the issue.
 

Tiops

Member

Mael

Member
Why would Spain be ungovernable just because it has more than 2 parties in the parliament?

Reread the OP.
they're fucked.
More than 2 parties shouldn't be an issue but with the parties they have now it's pretty much impossible.
It seems like trying to make a coalition with Donald Trump, Hugo Chavez, a history teacher and King Charles Xth of France.
I have no idea who would even start to compromise here.

Have you seen recent Venezuelan news? Have you followed Machado's thread here on GAF? If not, read a little bit: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1113196

Title:
Tomorrow is my turn to buy food and I may get arrested for it

Welp.
 
Why would Spain be ungovernable just because it has more than 2 parties in the parliament?

Because none of them will work with the other ones to form a functioning government.

At least, that's what it says in the OP, which I trust implicitly because I'm an ignorant American and Funky's a pretty cool dude.
 

X-chema

Neo Member
As spanish I can't help to be amazed by your post Funky Papa, as great as usual. In the political arena we're gonna get exciting times in Spain in the next months. By the way, it's just my imagination or the situation seems like the catalonian mess?

I mean, a president no one wants (in the other parties) of the most voted party and no solution in the horizon, it's like the groundhog day on the spanish polytics.
 

Cerium

Member
Both the PP and the PSOE know they'll be toast if they agree to a grand neoliberal-social democrat coalition, the new left will only sit at the table if they agree to some extremely (and potentially party-destroying) unpleasant reforms and the new right sneakily asks the social democrats to allow an incredibly fragile conservative government that could collapse in short time. A gigantic leftist coalition could oust the PP, but chances of that happening are slim to none.
The British people may never fully appreciate the sacrifice that Nick Clegg made for the sake of having an actual government.
 
Reread the OP.
they're fucked.
More than 2 parties shouldn't be an issue but with the parties they have now it's pretty much impossible.
It seems like trying to make a coalition with Donald Trump, Hugo Chavez, a history teacher and King Charles Xth of France.
I have no idea who would even start to compromise here.

Somehow the US as a country still works (more or less), although a significant part of the Republican party is - from my perspective that is - batshit insane. If that worked and still works, Spain will be fine.
 

Cerium

Member
Somehow the US as a country still works (more or less), although a significant part of the Republican party is - from my perspective that is - batshit insane. If that worked and still works, Spain will be fine.
They have proportional representation and a parliamentary system, completely different from what we have in the US.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
I wish you luck Funky Papa on the rocky road ahead.

Back here in the United States we are watching a similar "dumpster fire" (I love that phrase) within a political party.

Is your media a steaming pile of shit, where the renewed attention by the population will go wasted, or could perhaps there be a silver lining?

Edit; Also do you elect politicians based on looks?
 
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