I don't want to dissapoint you, but your politicians (basque, catalonian or any provincian ones) are as bad as the ones found in Madrid, different colours, but same breed. They try to inspire fear, confrontation instead of cooperation and only looks after themselves and their party, not the citizens nor their voters
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Spain shatters two-party rule, Europe watches as it turns into an ungovernable mess
- Thread starter Funky Papa
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I don't want to dissapoint you, but your politicians (basque, catalonian or any provincian ones) are as bad as the ones found in Madrid, different colours, but same breed. They try to inspire fear, confrontation instead of cooperation and only looks after themselves and their party, not the citizens nor their voters
TanookiTom
Member
A disappointing result for all of Europe indeed. Seems like left-wing parties don't stand a chance all across the continent at the moment. Sad times indeed!
Well don't give up Spain!
Edit: On a more positive note, at least Spain is one of the few countries where far-right parties don't seem to stand a chance!
Well don't give up Spain!
Edit: On a more positive note, at least Spain is one of the few countries where far-right parties don't seem to stand a chance!
MARLUXIA93
Neo Member
You are so right about this that is scary. I don't even concieve how people in my own country are this blind and ignorant about the consequence of their stupid vote.
Each day that passes i'm happier to be studying in another country.
Again, it's not about the politicians, it's about the people. All of the fucking country, ALL voted PP in a majority except Catalunya and Basque country. All. This tells you everything you need to know.
I can't live in a country where most of the people either don't care or vote for corruption and cuts in social services. I just can't. Enough of this shit.
Many people vote Podemos there because it's the only national party that it promises referendum. If PP would have promised referendum, they had won many more votes there.
No way, even with a referendum no one here would vote PP, the hate on PP with a lot of Catalonians (especially independentist) goes beyond the referendum. PP is a lost cause on Catalonia.
I´m Basque too, though I no longer live in the Basque Country. I sincerely wish you luck with that, I have always housed a lot of doubts about indepence being something good because of the globalised world we live in now, but it can´t be worse than continuing to be part of the shitshow Spain has turned into. Hope at least I can get the double nationality so I can still go back to Donosti whenever I want
And even so they have won one seat since the last elections in catalonia
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
*clears throat*
For those of you just joining us...
...fuck
The PP not only won again the elections, but it managed to regain a significant number of votes and came at a stone's throw from achieving a supermajority in alliance with Ciudadanos, sending chills down the spine of every left leaning voter in a country ravaged first by the crisis and then by austerity. But what is more important, it's still ways from forming a stable government, which means the situation remains thoroughly fucked. How the hell this happened? I think pollsters, academics and politicians are going to be scratching their heads for a good while.
Now that dust has settled...
PP: Despite being hit with what could easily amount to the worst political scandal since the GAL, the Popular Party miraculously overperformed, won back most of the votes lost to Ciudadanos, crushed the PSOE nationwide and made a mockery of Unidos Podemos, who still don't know what hit them. And not only that, but they have the Senate on lock. It looks like the PP hit its electoral bottom during the previous election, meaning that it could only grow from there. The strategy of fear worked wonders, with the PP positioning itself as the only defence against an united pseudocommunist front and becoming the sole receiver of the so called "useful vote", who flew back from Ciudadanos after the party outed itself as a low cost, rebranded version of the PP. It turns out that people prefer the original to the copy.
What is incredibly disconcerting is that the PP improved their previous results in Catalonia (where they are complicit in destroying the healthcare system as made apparent by the wiretap scandal) and Valencia (which was pillaged to bankruptcy by the PP) of all the possible places. This makes no sense at all. Then there's also that should be said about the hidden PP voter, who never shows up until the day after.
PSOE: Here's the party that is trying to portray their worst result ever and a loss of five seats as a resounding triumph because Unidos Podemos didn't fuck them over. What else needs to be said? They lost at Extremadura and Andalucía, wasted a large amount of political capital during the elections and may now probably abstain so the PP can lord over while they lick their wounds.
Unidos Podemos: They may be the biggest losers in this mess despite the appearances. Although Unidos Podemos "kept" the previous 71 seats left by Podemos and Unidad Popular, they lost over a million votes compared to the previous numbers held by Podemos + Unidad Popular as separate parties, which could have accrued them a total of 85 seats to equal those of the PSOE. Polls grotesquely oversold their prospects. This makes me believe that either a large amount of their voters didn't bother to show up or polls were only conducted in big cities, where UP is extremely strong compared to smaller towns and rural areas. Either case, this is an unmitigated disaster for the party. They lost popular support, left good seats to waste and probably poisoned the well for Izquierda Unida.
At this point I don't know if Unidad Popular/Izquierda Unida will stay latched to Podemos. It looks like the sudden turn of Podemos towards socialdemocracy soured a lot of IU's eurocommunist base (more often than not hell bent on moral purity) while Iglesias' less belligerent tone, so carefully crafted, catastrophically failed at seducing the PSOE's vote and electrify both old time IU followers and a significant mass of left leaning disenfranchised citizens who previously voted for Podemos. They've been left with little political capital to spend and now must pray for the PSOE's implossion. The PP has shown that the strategy of fear works, so they may as well go back to their old and more vitriolic discourse. Podemos will be totally left out of any potential government after believing their own hype and caressing the presidency.
Ciudadanos: Got massively fucked by the PP. Their regenerationist discourse failed in the face of the PP's "let's build a wall against Podemos" one and Rivera went all the way to show himself as an unreliable actor willing to fuck over partners and ideals for a cabinet position. C's will probably mendicate for a new PP-led government, but even if the PSOE sits on its collective ass and allows Rajoy's investment, it remains unsure if the PP will reward their largely unneeded support with a couple of unimportant seats in the government just to they won't bitch too much at the parliament, where they won't pose a huge threat in the face of a broken house.
----
Honestly, at this point I don't know what will happen now. The PSOE is a colossal mess, but Susana Díaz won't be able to safely oust Sánchez from leadership after the beating taken in Andalucía. They *need* to fight back with teeth and nails against the PP, but Podemos' menace remains there and they may even allow a minority government under certain assurances from the PP since their need to regroup is much more pressing than fighting a strong and revitalised enemy that trounces them in terms of seats and popular support. It's either that or going for a third round, which could yield unexpected but probably not dissimilar results.
For those of you just joining us...
...fuck
The PP not only won again the elections, but it managed to regain a significant number of votes and came at a stone's throw from achieving a supermajority in alliance with Ciudadanos, sending chills down the spine of every left leaning voter in a country ravaged first by the crisis and then by austerity. But what is more important, it's still ways from forming a stable government, which means the situation remains thoroughly fucked. How the hell this happened? I think pollsters, academics and politicians are going to be scratching their heads for a good while.
Now that dust has settled...
PP: Despite being hit with what could easily amount to the worst political scandal since the GAL, the Popular Party miraculously overperformed, won back most of the votes lost to Ciudadanos, crushed the PSOE nationwide and made a mockery of Unidos Podemos, who still don't know what hit them. And not only that, but they have the Senate on lock. It looks like the PP hit its electoral bottom during the previous election, meaning that it could only grow from there. The strategy of fear worked wonders, with the PP positioning itself as the only defence against an united pseudocommunist front and becoming the sole receiver of the so called "useful vote", who flew back from Ciudadanos after the party outed itself as a low cost, rebranded version of the PP. It turns out that people prefer the original to the copy.
What is incredibly disconcerting is that the PP improved their previous results in Catalonia (where they are complicit in destroying the healthcare system as made apparent by the wiretap scandal) and Valencia (which was pillaged to bankruptcy by the PP) of all the possible places. This makes no sense at all. Then there's also that should be said about the hidden PP voter, who never shows up until the day after.
PSOE: Here's the party that is trying to portray their worst result ever and a loss of five seats as a resounding triumph because Unidos Podemos didn't fuck them over. What else needs to be said? They lost at Extremadura and Andalucía, wasted a large amount of political capital during the elections and may now probably abstain so the PP can lord over while they lick their wounds.
Unidos Podemos: They may be the biggest losers in this mess despite the appearances. Although Unidos Podemos "kept" the previous 71 seats left by Podemos and Unidad Popular, they lost over a million votes compared to the previous numbers held by Podemos + Unidad Popular as separate parties, which could have accrued them a total of 85 seats to equal those of the PSOE. Polls grotesquely oversold their prospects. This makes me believe that either a large amount of their voters didn't bother to show up or polls were only conducted in big cities, where UP is extremely strong compared to smaller towns and rural areas. Either case, this is an unmitigated disaster for the party. They lost popular support, left good seats to waste and probably poisoned the well for Izquierda Unida.
At this point I don't know if Unidad Popular/Izquierda Unida will stay latched to Podemos. It looks like the sudden turn of Podemos towards socialdemocracy soured a lot of IU's eurocommunist base (more often than not hell bent on moral purity) while Iglesias' less belligerent tone, so carefully crafted, catastrophically failed at seducing the PSOE's vote and electrify both old time IU followers and a significant mass of left leaning disenfranchised citizens who previously voted for Podemos. They've been left with little political capital to spend and now must pray for the PSOE's implossion. The PP has shown that the strategy of fear works, so they may as well go back to their old and more vitriolic discourse. Podemos will be totally left out of any potential government after believing their own hype and caressing the presidency.
Ciudadanos: Got massively fucked by the PP. Their regenerationist discourse failed in the face of the PP's "let's build a wall against Podemos" one and Rivera went all the way to show himself as an unreliable actor willing to fuck over partners and ideals for a cabinet position. C's will probably mendicate for a new PP-led government, but even if the PSOE sits on its collective ass and allows Rajoy's investment, it remains unsure if the PP will reward their largely unneeded support with a couple of unimportant seats in the government just to they won't bitch too much at the parliament, where they won't pose a huge threat in the face of a broken house.
----
Honestly, at this point I don't know what will happen now. The PSOE is a colossal mess, but Susana Díaz won't be able to safely oust Sánchez from leadership after the beating taken in Andalucía. They *need* to fight back with teeth and nails against the PP, but Podemos' menace remains there and they may even allow a minority government under certain assurances from the PP since their need to regroup is much more pressing than fighting a strong and revitalised enemy that trounces them in terms of seats and popular support. It's either that or going for a third round, which could yield unexpected but probably not dissimilar results.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Look on the bright side: at least you're not the UK.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I mean, who would anybody want to move to the UK from a country with massive underemployment and poverty encroachment among the old middle class.
But there's a lot ot be said about the Brexit vote and Spain's elections, really.
His Majesty
Banned
What are the odds of PP+Ciudadanos obtaining a majority with some of the smaller parties? Or are they all Basque and Catalonian independence parties?
Only I see they could convince PNV (Basque) and CC (Canarian). Total would be 175. It misses one seat.
Belgium, here we go. Record is closer.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Yes, it's the same demographic in both votes. Europe's old industrial class is going out with bile and fury.
Business
Member
True but that's most probably C's vote that PP got back. PP + C's vote is down in Catalunya compared to 2015 and up in the whole of Spain.
If they can convince CDC, sure, they are far right wing like them, with the difference that now they say they are pro-independence (hint: they are not, they are just huge opportunists riding the Independence wave), but in the economic and social they are the same or even worse. With the Basque people it's impossible, PNV are more or less right-wing but they don't have enough seats and Bildu of course will say no to everything PP-C's can say.
It's an impasse, it's either PSOE lets PP rule or a third round. Either way PSOE is totally fucked right now, no matter what they choose the voters will take it wrong because there is no good solution for them. They got themselves into this corner with their failed alliance with C's, no matter how they say it was Podemos' fault it was THEIR fault for allying with those cunts.
I think they will just let PP rule and then the party will implode while everybody laughs.
The only good thing about PP ruling again is that they will eat the full round of cuts the EU imposes again and Catalunya will probably do a UDI or something to escape this clusterfuck. Everytime someone from PP speaks, a new pro-independence is born, so there is that...
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
CDC, ERC and Bildu will *never* agree to a PP-led government. Adding the PNV+Coalición Canaria+some rando to the mix is incredibly unlikely for similar reasons (Ciudadanos would glitch out if they found themselves in the company of the PNV). Banding together an all leftist coalition with the support of Basque and Catalonian nationalists is also out of the question since the PSOE will never agree to a referendum in Catalonia (and maybe the Basque Country) as they'll probably demand.
The only possible outcomes are:
-New elections in a few months (oh, the joy)
-A PP+PSOE coalition (watch the PSOE crash and burn within four years)
-A PP-led minority government facilitated by the PSOE not voting against it, which may be unstable and could damage the PSOE (watch the parliament turn into a warzone each time the PP tries to pass a law)
Business
Member
Are you sure you are not exagerating one bit when saying CDC is far right?
I haven't followed Spain's politics since I moved out of country almost 10 years ago.. what the hell are all these parties! Anyway, I've actually been checking this thread for a couple months now, and damn this is such a mess...
I'm going back to Spain during Christmas to see the family, wonder how the situation will be by then.
Funky Papa, I know (or assume) you're from Spain, do you also live in Spain?
I'm going back to Spain during Christmas to see the family, wonder how the situation will be by then.
Funky Papa, I know (or assume) you're from Spain, do you also live in Spain?
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
There's a joke to be made about CDC not being far right (it isn't at all), but CDC being whatever CDC needs to be.
I live in Spain. There are times I wish that weren't the case, but such is my penance.
Oh no. They were worse with Unió, sure, but the economic politics of CDC are an absolute nightmare: privatize everything even when it works, for example, they privatized the water company of Llobregat? (I don't remember exactly) when it was actually producing benefits, and now it functions worse and it only generates losses. But of course the company who got the job is getting public money for their managers to live like kings. They are the friends of the banks and the big companies, fucking with the workers, cutting all they can in education and social services and saying the Spanish state is to blame (they have some responsability, of course, but not all as they sell). A recent example too, with those tapes they got form the Spanish minister of interior (I don't know the equivalence in other countries :S) they said they took down the Health network when that Referendum a couple of years ago took place. They could not defend from the attack of the State (now we know it was the PP government who did this, we just suspected until this week) because they are literally 4 people managing all the servers, they just can't do shit. This is the result of all the cutting and the movement of public funds to private companies so their friends can be rich and they can retire with golden benefits. They are to blame for the state of things too.
They are horrible and I hope they crash and burn in the next elections. ERC is not my dream party but I think they can do a bit better.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
CDC is just a corrupt neoliberal party. They are closer in the spectrum to Ciudadanos, only replacing Spanish nationalism with Catalonian one and with the kind of internal fuckery that comes from holding public office for decades.
With that said, it is time we finally do something with the electoral system. I make fun of PACMA for sport, but it's outrageous that the PNV got five seats with just 286.215 votes while PACMA's 284.848 accrued them fuck all.
The way the electoral system prioritizes the vote from podunk towns over urban ones is all kinds of messed up. Of course, PP and PSOE will never agree to that. Otherwise they'd get rolled.
Edit: Ciudadanos also got a pretty rough deal out of this election compared to Unidos Podemos.
That is simply unfair. I don't like Ciudadanos, but I can't defend this fuckery neither. At this rate Ciudadanos is set to become the new UPyD.
With that said, it is time we finally do something with the electoral system. I make fun of PACMA for sport, but it's outrageous that the PNV got five seats with just 286.215 votes while PACMA's 284.848 accrued them fuck all.
The way the electoral system prioritizes the vote from podunk towns over urban ones is all kinds of messed up. Of course, PP and PSOE will never agree to that. Otherwise they'd get rolled.
Edit: Ciudadanos also got a pretty rough deal out of this election compared to Unidos Podemos.
That is simply unfair. I don't like Ciudadanos, but I can't defend this fuckery neither. At this rate Ciudadanos is set to become the new UPyD.
I can imagine. I talk with my mom via Skype pretty much weekly and sometimes when she talks about the situation there, she starts by saying "Buenoo.. madre mia...", lol. I wouldn't mind going back to Spain if the situation at least went back to how it was around 2004 or so, and more game companies existed (need a job!). Miss the food and weather
Anyway, I'll kee an eye on this thread. Thanks for all the detailed write-ups!
Yeah, he is right... Fear has won. I don't remember any time where the results were soooo different from predictions.
But hey, I'm learning lenguages and I'm studying Translation. Hopefully I can jump ship too.
I feel part of the problem is how weird our electoral system is. It's made in order to avoid big cities dictating who wins the elections. Which is an stupid premise, because there is much more people people living in big cities.
But, is forming a government with PP and C's better than keeping their pro-independent image? The Catalonian government is as weak as it can get and changing their stance will be the end of their alliance with left wing independent ERC.
I still can't believe they kept Pedro Sanchez as their candidate for the second round. He isn't even well liked among a good part of PSOE's voters. Their alliance with Cs was, in my opinion, a move he made hoping Podemos would change their conditions. But Podemos, wanted a second round, since they hoped Izquierda Unida 1 million votes will be enough to suprass PSOE.
At this point I don't even know what he is thinking. It doesn't matter what he does, his political career is dead. That makes him quite unpredictable IMO.
Yeah, they are taking a horrible route with the whole Catalonia problem. Just saying "nope" everytime they are asked is not going to work. They should allow the referendum to happen, but say that two thirds of the votes must be pro-independence in order for it to happen. If the "Yes" gets a simple majority, then they would negociate with Catalonian parties in order to find a middle ground that can be accepted by most of the catalonian citizens, while allowing for a new referendum in 10 or 20 years in case there is any change as fresher blood is allowed to vote.
Or they could just change the Constitution so it reflects the opinions of the vast majority of Spain inhabitants...
I could see new elections unless PSOE doesn't vote against PP. Which would be the best option for stability, considering they Rajoy would always be in danger of suffering a censor motion. He wouldn't be able to do as he wish like he did before December elections.
At this point, I would take it. Such an unstable situation wouldn't probably last more than 2 years, but it would take new elections in 30 months rather than 6...
I'm absolutely sick of political parties playing Game of Thrones,
His Majesty
Banned
Hands off please. We fought long and hard for that record.
Being buddies with almost every left wing partially that isn't Bildu and ERC has probably helped them.
Their strategy has been making alliances with regional parties like Compromis. It makes sense, it's their way to not be completely screwed over like Ciudadanos due to the electoral law.
Currently living in Spain OP. Just observing as a foreigner the current political situation makes me think that democracy (in some cases) once again is proven to be a very fragile system. There is no difference between an informed vote compared to an uninformed vote. Propaganda matters more and this is the way things will continue to be. Here's what you have in return.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
PSOE fucked up inmensely by making a deal with Ciudadanos, which is nothing but a strong neoliberal front. They thrown themselves into the arms of the enemy and people saw through it.
Podemos fucked up inmensely by making the Catalonian referendum a top concern, which is not something most Spaniards can agree on. They abandoned the plight of countless disenfranchised to put at the front something that is seen by many as a political farce.
Correct in both statements but understandable too, the Ciudadanos agreement was done in order to show Podemos that PSOE don't need them (they did) and the Catalonian referendum was a captive electoral promise to unite the nationalist and left voters to reach enough votes to compete with the PSOE.
Coriolanus
Banned
Man, Rajoy's got a bit of an ego prob.
odds of dude stepping down this time as an olive branch? would it even work?
odds of dude stepping down this time as an olive branch? would it even work?
It sure is happy day for Spain :|
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