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Special edition of Charlie Hebdo will feauture caricatures of Mohammed
- Thread starter RandyBobandy
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I didn't think you meant to assign blame to Charlie Hebdo, but the language you used is full of hedging.
Petty? These people were murdered for making a joke.
'Improving the situation' is not possible. May as well keep mocking these loonies.
Denigrating a religion gives extremists power, but giving in to their whims doesn't?
Mammoth Jones
Member
Pretty much. No one has a right to not be offended. I'm tired of some of us forgetting this.
DevelopmentArrested
Banned
Yeah, it's not like it could be the religion's fault or anything
No and nobody finds the Interview funny either but they have found a better life as symbols against terrorism. We've successfully created shining beacons out of piles of shit and dammit if we don't celebrate it.
ComputerMKII
Banned
Anyone is free to call Charlie Hebdo crap, bad taste, unfunny, offensive etc. It's not even such a bad opinion (I don't feel offended but I can see why people could). Or people can just ignore them. That works, too.
Free speech is great and works for everyone!
i'm not sure if I'm ignorant of the general news but i haven't heard anybody actually talk about them being funny..
imo there are some clever ones here and there but i don't think many people are really pretending to think that Charlie Hebdo is funny if they don't.. the discussion usually is about their basic rights
Templar Wizard
Member
Tough luck if you are offended? its only your religion, grow up?
Hmmmmmmmm, I think GG was right on the nose with his latest article on The Intercept:
'But this weeks defense of free speech rights was so spirited that it gave rise to a brand new principle: to defend free speech, one not only defends the right to disseminate the speech, but embraces the content of the speech itself.'
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/01/09/solidarity-charlie-hebdo-cartoons/
If CH is really are "equal opportunity offenders., they wont just fill their pages with the pictures of Mohammad, but could actually use this run to make an actual statement about satire and not against one target.
Interesting to see what it contains.
Hmmmmmmmm, I think GG was right on the nose with his latest article on The Intercept:
'But this weeks defense of free speech rights was so spirited that it gave rise to a brand new principle: to defend free speech, one not only defends the right to disseminate the speech, but embraces the content of the speech itself.'
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/01/09/solidarity-charlie-hebdo-cartoons/
If CH is really are "equal opportunity offenders., they wont just fill their pages with the pictures of Mohammad, but could actually use this run to make an actual statement about satire and not against one target.
Interesting to see what it contains.
Your analogy is a very poor one. And frankly the amount of defense you're going to go to make sure a bunch of murderers don't have their feelings hurt is poor too.
giga-ganon
Banned
They have the right to do what they wnat, i don't care if some people are offended! If you're offended, they just ignore this, it doesn't change your life
It's mainly about showing that it's normal that a religion will be criticized the same as any other religion and they don't get out of it by killing other people.
A statement in the same vein as always. And a particularly strong one at this time.
ComputerMKII
Banned
Charlie Hebdo's offices got firebombed in 2011. They got countless lawsuits and some of their journalists got killed. They didn't resist for that long only to give up after what happened last week. All they've suffered through would be a waste and the victims would have died in vain.
No.
Both are groups that, if you even so much as look at them at the wrong time, will kill you and make a spectacle of your body. Especially against the media when it comes to making an example of someone. They're both the exact same.
I am not defending the murderers, but feel free to keep imagining it.
gutter_trash
Banned
I have no objections to their practice of freedom of speech but I'm not gonna pretend to like their cartoons either or jump on the bandwagon to subscribe to their newspaper.
Nobody should die for drawing a cartoon, no matter how good or how bad is.
true dat.
France fought for 200 years to separate the clutches of the clergy and the church from the state. I understand fully their pro-secular way of life and not wanting to return to the middle-ages of religious dogma
I'm an atheist, so the idea that drawing the prophet is offensive seems silly to me. But I also understand it does mean something important to a religion. That it's in their belief system that specifically drawing the prophet is disrespectful. Because of this, I would not draw the prophet as I know it means something to others.
That said, everyone has a right to say what they want and not be killed for it. That means people not of that faith can draw their prophet if they so please. Personally I don't see the point in offensive satire if there isn't some point to it being made. So I feel torn on those wanting to lampoon the prophet if the only end goal is to offend. If someone drew the prophet to show something (a criticism of the religions actions) then okay. Simply drawing him just to piss people off. Yeah it's your right, but okay.
That said, everyone has a right to say what they want and not be killed for it. That means people not of that faith can draw their prophet if they so please. Personally I don't see the point in offensive satire if there isn't some point to it being made. So I feel torn on those wanting to lampoon the prophet if the only end goal is to offend. If someone drew the prophet to show something (a criticism of the religions actions) then okay. Simply drawing him just to piss people off. Yeah it's your right, but okay.
Stereogatari
Banned
While I agree, people opposite to this view have a damn good argument. It wasn't a cartoon mocking Christianity or Judaism that led to the death of 13 people. It was a cartoon about Islam, so why shouldn't the focus be on Islam?
However of course that makes it difficult to get the free speech message across to normal Muslims who feel like they're being singled out. If the special issue was a religion bashing special that included all religions, then it'd be easier to get a lot of stubborn Muslims to loosen up a bit on the topic, but when it's just focusing on their religion they might feel a bit hard done by and remain closed to the idea of their religion being mocked.
ComputerMKII
Banned
I don't find them very funny but I think that's besides the point. If we don't have free speech for crass humor, what do we have free speech for? Freedom of expression is all the more relevant and necessary for the offensive and unpopular shit (that inludes nazis, islamists and other nutjobs) since, by definition, popular opinions don't need protection.
No no no. I'm not ready for that world to exist.
They get a six month reprieve from dumb Americans being American to them. But if you think I'm going to let some fundamentalist assholes hurt my freedom of speech to insult the French, they've got another thing coming!
THESE COLORS DON'T RUN!
(Coincidentally, France has the same national colors)
Not me. The Interview looked like total garbage. I don't see the connection though.
Templar Wizard
Member
Take a read of the Intercept's article, he makes some good points. I dont agree with everything, but taking direct aim against islam is not satire.
I am sure if you published a cartoon of a naked Jesus Christ in a position designed to offend to the majority of free speech americans... well, they may not like it so much.
They can do what they like of course, but an attack is not free speech.
Don't worry, there isn't one.
Although it's not a magazine or style I'm personally interested in, "featuring caricatures of Muhammad and other religious figures" is what Charlie Hebdo magazine does.
Caricatures of Muhammad is basically the reason why this horrible thing happened to them.
if you're surprised or "torn" that the magazine will feature caricatures of Muhammad, you haven't been paying attention to what this magazine does.
This is business as usual for this magazine. NOT doing this would be surprising.
If you're surprised and torn by this response by the magazine, just continue ignoring the magazine like you've obviously done before.
Caricatures of Muhammad is basically the reason why this horrible thing happened to them.
if you're surprised or "torn" that the magazine will feature caricatures of Muhammad, you haven't been paying attention to what this magazine does.
This is business as usual for this magazine. NOT doing this would be surprising.
If you're surprised and torn by this response by the magazine, just continue ignoring the magazine like you've obviously done before.
Alx
Member
They won't just fill their pages with pictures of Mohammad. They were clear that their next issue would be just another one, and not an homage nor a reaction to the events. So they'll certainly be firing on many things and people, including some of the people who were leading the march yesterday.
I did cause I was bored the day after christmas while visiting my brother, but I don't see what logic you are getting at.
Kind of like Life of Brian did?
How many death threats and murders were carried out in the wake of that movie?
I'm sick of this whatabouttism. It's ridiculous and pointless. CH ridiculed Jews and Christians and Muslims alike. Deal with that equality.
gutter_trash
Banned
aside from free speech. France does have a racism problem and integration problem that has not be dealt with well since post WW2 reconstruction.
Charlie Hebo did make fun of the Portuguese community in one of their cartoons and I as a Portuguese-Canadian taking it from a North American point of view found it to be early 20th Century jab at an ethnic minority. Poor taste.
Even if they tried to be funny, it was still a jab a the Portuguese community in France who in past decades were considered to be just a lower class of immigrant at time.
Charlie Hebo did make fun of the Portuguese community in one of their cartoons and I as a Portuguese-Canadian taking it from a North American point of view found it to be early 20th Century jab at an ethnic minority. Poor taste.
Even if they tried to be funny, it was still a jab a the Portuguese community in France who in past decades were considered to be just a lower class of immigrant at time.
MistakenMobius
Member
Would angry Christian American would raid the journal?
Would the Amish or mormons issue a kill order and train people to that effect?
Then go to a kosher supermarket because they have an issue with Jews?
Mass_Pincup
Banned
Portuguese is a race now?
Stereogatari
Banned
Thanks for pushing me towards reading that article, it was spot on and actually echoed one of my feeling that some of the cartoons "went far beyond maligning violence by extremists acting in the name of Islam, or even merely depicting Mohammed with degrading imagery (above, right), and instead contained a stream of mockery toward Muslims generally, who in France are not remotely powerful but are largely a marginalized and targeted immigrant population."
Also this cartoon was spot on:
Yes? Race doesn't just mean the broad meta-ethnic categories of White, Black, Brown, Yellow etc. It can also refer to ethnic groups as well, in fact treating race as a synonym of ethnicity makes much more sense than the colour coding definition (are blonde and brunette white skinned Turkish people racially white or racially Turkish?).
MistakenMobius
Member
That's kind of stupid
Turks are Caucasian like European
Pyramid head
Banned
Great comparison. Christians sure would hate to see depictions of Jesus being brutally murdered.
who really believes that these moronic fanatics will just hang up their guns and bomb vests if people hung up their pencils? Anyone? They're never going to run out of excuses to commit the murders they love so much.
LegendofLex
Member
I think this attitude might be a pretty significant factor as far as why tensions between the West and the Middle East are bad enough that they've escalated to violence.
Meanwhile, since restoring peace and order obviously isn't possible, we may as well just keep bombing the shit out of them.
Templar Wizard
Member
Lets not give in to Terrorism but there must be another way to communicate that than just generate images that are actually insulting to a huge group of people.
Also, I think Glenn was being facetious when he called the cartoons 'noble'.
Also, I think Glenn was being facetious when he called the cartoons 'noble'.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Great, don't bow down to terrorism.
So they have it coming, right? I don't like this way of thinking at all. They shouldn't get attacked, no matter what they say or draw. I know you're not condoning what the terrorists did, but still, you sound like you're blaming CH for the attacks. And that's not right.
I'm offended when people draw Darwin as a monkey:
(By a french caricaturist, no less! *shakes fist*)
But I would never kill or hurt anyone over it. And for a simple reason, a reason I thought religious people had in common with me:
I know better. When I see someone mocking my faith*, I laugh about it, thinking how they are so wrong. I know better than them, I'm convinced I'm right, silly drawings by people that I know know less than me don't impress me. Their mockery merely show their ignorance, I'm secure in my beliefs.
If you are so unsure of your faith that you have to express anger at a guy drawing funnies, you are actually making his point.
*faith and belief are innacurate words for what could be better described as a lack of belief, but I kept them for the sake of brevity.
(By a french caricaturist, no less! *shakes fist*)
This one has so much subtext it can be difficult to interpret, but it's in fact mocking religion, among other things.
But I would never kill or hurt anyone over it. And for a simple reason, a reason I thought religious people had in common with me:
I know better. When I see someone mocking my faith*, I laugh about it, thinking how they are so wrong. I know better than them, I'm convinced I'm right, silly drawings by people that I know know less than me don't impress me. Their mockery merely show their ignorance, I'm secure in my beliefs.
If you are so unsure of your faith that you have to express anger at a guy drawing funnies, you are actually making his point.
*faith and belief are innacurate words for what could be better described as a lack of belief, but I kept them for the sake of brevity.
That guy that drew Mohammad with a bomb for a hat still gets death threats. It pretty much reinforced the whole drawing.
ComputerMKII
Banned
Count Dookkake
Member
Better them than the bad guys.
You're absolutely right, but islamic extremists don't care about that logic. In fact, islamic extremists think they should be attacked for defiling the prophet.
So when you're dealing with a known quantity (terrorists that give no fucks about moral freedoms, get super murder-y when the prophet is made fun of), you have to expect that when you prod and provoke with incendiary content like cartoons that degrade an entire religion, you might get a response that is outside of normal logic. That isn't fucking victim blaming, it's understanding how the world works.
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