The jobs created for young professionals? Yeah, that sounds great for people who have no money for higher education.
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Spike Lee rails against Gentrification: "We been here. You just cant come and bogart"
- Thread starter RustyNails
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The jobs created for young professionals? Yeah, that sounds great for people who have no money for higher education.
I hate this glorification of the Ghetto.
I live in two areas that went through gentrification.
Brooklyn and New Haven.
I will say thank God for gentrification every time.
I wasn't part of the culture of the neighborhood though.
I grew up in a poor minority immigrant family, a family with 0 assets and a ton of debt from the immigration process. We were probably poorer than most people in the neighborhood.
We lived upstairs of a Chinese Restaurant with like 4 other families. I had to work in the Chinese restaurant at a young age during non-school times to cover boarding cost. I seen my mom have a gun pointed to her head, I had people try to assault me for free chinese food, I've had people try to burn me, I've seen people pee in the corner of the restaurant because I didn't give them more duck sauce, I seen our delivery guys robbed and beaten to near death multiple times. This was all before I was in 4th grade.
I see them now versus what they were. I'll take them now every time.
So yeah, I've sure you all love your culture but to outsiders living in the neighborhood, we rather to safe.
I live in two areas that went through gentrification.
Brooklyn and New Haven.
I will say thank God for gentrification every time.
I wasn't part of the culture of the neighborhood though.
I grew up in a poor minority immigrant family, a family with 0 assets and a ton of debt from the immigration process. We were probably poorer than most people in the neighborhood.
We lived upstairs of a Chinese Restaurant with like 4 other families. I had to work in the Chinese restaurant at a young age during non-school times to cover boarding cost. I seen my mom have a gun pointed to her head, I had people try to assault me for free chinese food, I've had people try to burn me, I've seen people pee in the corner of the restaurant because I didn't give them more duck sauce, I seen our delivery guys robbed and beaten to near death multiple times. This was all before I was in 4th grade.
I see them now versus what they were. I'll take them now every time.
So yeah, I've sure you all love your culture but to outsiders living in the neighborhood, we rather to safe.
I agree with that, though. But going with the attitude "all I can get is a Service-style job because I'm <x>" is... I don't even know what's the word, but it's borderline calling defeat before it even happened.
Again, what's the problem with that ; gentrification or terrible education?
I think it's a result of both, but I feel gentrification happens because of the poor education system. Most places with free or affordable higher education don't deal with that problem as much as the US does. (e.g. : Canada)
Uncle Rupee
Banned
My problem with that is, it isn't the influx of white people that brought about changes and quality in the community services but the influx of wealthy people. He also made references to white people acting like Columbus, calling cops because of noise (as if they don't have a right to do so), and forcing the Jackson tribute party to be moved (as if they shouldn't have a say), etc.. He was pretty clearly making it a white/black issue in those instances. Meanwhile, we just had a thread on a white SanFran hipster being treated unfairly by white cops due to gentrification in that area. It's not about race it's about income inequality, and it affects everyone regardless of race.
entremet
Member
Most educated inner city minorities move to the burbs or nicer neighborhoods. So it makes it a bit difficult.
Again the issue is that many inner city minorities don't own property, so they're at the mercy at market forces with gentrification and not reaping any benefits.
It's reverse white flight all over again.
I live in Canada and gentrification is a huge issue here as well. Neighbourhoods in Toronto that were once affordable for people with less education like Queen West, the Junction, Parkdale and Leslieville are now where young professionals live. The people who lived there before, and even a lot of businesses that had been there for decades are gone in favour of new boutique businesses run by those young professionals.
Now the people who lived there have moved further out of the core and either commute for an hour to get to work or work in neighbourhoods that have to pick up the slack.
The problem is long-term, because now Queen West is falling out of favour with the young professional crowd because it's "too popular" and "too expensive" and they're moving further out of the core into the cheaper places the less educated people have taken as their own.
But what happens to Queen West? The buildings are all brand new and the shops are boutiques, and the older professionals that have established their money can move in.
DoYouEvenLift?
Banned
Not being facetious, but can you point me to a study or something that says state provided services like garbage collection are more "timely" or responsive after the gentrification effect kicks in? The only evidence I have right now is an angry Spike Lee.
entremet
Member
That's a good point. Gentrification happens in stages. It's usually--young and poor artsy types, then yuppies, then older money and expatriates, each displacing the former!
Why do you call it an issue?
I don't know about Queen West... how were the conditions there before? The crime rate?
It's only not an issue if you don't think of things from the perspective of the poor people.
Gentrification is great for rich real estate speculators.
But did those people get evicted? Why did the shop close? Give more details on the story of that neighborhood.
In Montreal, gentrification is happening too, but it's only an issue with the people that are afraid of the changes. New condos are being built in abandoned industries. Strip clubs and massage parlors are being closed, new, fancier restaurant are opening.
I'm not saying there isn't a place for those kind of stuff, but anti-gentrification is hardly defensible in that case. What is happening is a normal, expending and healthy city.
Fenderputty
Banned
Wealth inequality needs to be harped on more because everything you posted is unavoidable. Populations migrate and property values go up and down because of it.
captmcblack
Member
Who is glorifying the ghetto?
Nobody wants the ghetto to be the ghetto. These neighborhoods should've never been the ghetto in the first place, but that's an entire other socioeconomic/racial discussion. Still, nobody wants the ghetto to be the ghetto, and nobody is glorifying it.
What people want is for the ghetto to improve and stop being the ghetto without needing the people that already live there (and especially the people that actually can only afford to live there because of the price of rent) to be forced out or priced out for that to happen. What people want is for there to be faster police and fire response, better schools and transportation, more investment in the community and better facilities in these neighborhoods because they need them, not because enough wealthy (or wealthier, at least) people have moved in to make the place trendy enough to do those things.
Why can't the neighborhood improve without its original residents being there to benefit?
Trust me, I understand about being from a poor immigrant family - I myself am from such a family that settled in Brooklyn in one of these neighborhoods in the 70s. And I definitely want the city to improve and grow and get better and so on.
I just don't want that to also mean that I myself can't afford to live where I grew up because I am not rich, or the kind of person the city or businesses in the city feel is most important to serve.
Mattlikewhoa
Member
Co-signed!
The Faceless Master
Member
the reality of modern day urban America makes it a black / white issue.
i don't have to prepare an alternative menu to tell you that people are eating shit.
Yes, they get evicted. When more affluent people fill an area, property values go up and property taxes rise in turn. Landlords raise the rent to match. The people living there can't afford to stay. An alternative is that landlords sell now that they can get a great price and developers buy up the entire block and turn it into condo buildings.
In other cases, and this isn't that common in Canada, there are literally forced evictions. People who won't leave on their own are terrorized until they do.
In terms of private investment, that's asking too much in the way of morality from amoral actors.
In terms of public investment and public services, I agree one billion percent. It's a god damn shame that politicians only start paying nominal attention once there's some young white agitators and start paying real attention once the money arrives.
User Name Here
Member
As silly as this may sound, I figured Manhattan would actually be for the rich at some point. And with all the hype NYC is getting, maybe half the world will be here soon. I'm looking forward to this:
I'm sorry but this like 50% old-man-yells-at-cloud about how whippersnappers are changing things, 30% caricature of gentrification out of ignorance, and 20% racism. It's kinda offensive. Neighborhoods are becoming more liveable. This is a good thing, Spike. I'm really getting tired of this dude. Go make another "joint" and stop wasting our time with your rants.
Old black people have every reason to dislike white people.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
I haven't seen anyone in this thread glorifying the ghetto, whatever that means. People have presented pretty good arguments on the problem with gentrification and not one has amounted to pining for the good ole days. Everyone wants to be safe, as you mention, but we are wondering what took so long in the first place. That's where the issue lies, aside from financial aspects/being priced out etc.
BlackBanditSho
Member
This is the root of the complex problem right here.
So you have an immigrant that comes in with nothing and is trying hard to achieve the American dream. They open up a small business, desire prosperity, and find that the aggression towards them is unfair and uncalled for. You develop a resentment against the community that you're serving - worst case scenario, and best case scenario - you begin to dislike the community hoping for some kind of sweeping change that would make your life/business more tolerable. Gentrification is AWESOME. Bye-bye crappy and ungrateful community, hello new money and affluence.
So here's the OTHER side: You live in a community and nearly every corner store, hair shop, or restaurant is owned by an immigrant that came into the community. They don't know you, don't know the flavor of the area, and really just want a straight, cold, business transaction. Here's product. Give money. Rinse, repeat. They're not really a part of the community. They attend the community calls only to complain about the crime, never to initiate collaborative relationship building efforts. An extra pack of ketchup? Pay me. We don't take food stamps. No EBT cards here. You look funny shopping the back of the store, are you trying to steal from me? Simple conveniences like water or salt? 60% more expensive because there's not other place to buy this stuff from locally anyway. You begin to HATE these people that move into the community. And why haven't we our own stores ANYWAY? And so goes....
So I'm not saying that either side is right or wrong. Your feelings are TOTALLY justified, and i can understand your anger about being shat upon pre-gentrification.
That said, there's always another side. I remember being in DC in college. Too broke to buy food other than the crappy carry-out junk. Paying extra for condiments when you're wondering how you're going to by BREAD tomorrow? People spending their last dollars on liquor and fries. Money always going out, never coming IN. And who does it go to?
I'm just saying, it's not right. It's complex. But there's always another narrative.
zero shift
Banned
I will assure you that these are the exceptions not the rules. The city RARELY fixes a pothole when people demand them to. Do you really believe that the potholes are there because NOBODY demands to fix them?
AbortedWalrusFetus
Member
You can assure me all you want. There's no evidence saying they are the exceptions rather than rules. I was tossed around between three different departments before I got the potholes fixed, but it got fixed because I took the initiative when I moved in. They'd been there for years.
Regardless, changes in demographics lead to natural changes in crime, litter, cleanliness and schools. It doesn't take some magical reallocation of money from government to happen, it can happen naturally.
Spike Lee says "White people moved into the neighborhood and crime went down and schools got better and trash got picked up." He most likely hasn't even taken the time to sit down and say, "Well are the new residents more invested in the neighborhood? Do they pick up trash on their own that used to sit there? Do they have a "don't snitch" attitude that makes it impossible for the police to do their job effectively in the neighborhood?" His conclusion is not that any of those things take place, nor did he even acknowledge them, and neither has anyone in this thread. The logic in this thread has been "white people move in and the city cleans up the neighborhood, and why didn't the city do it before the white people moved in?" What if the real case is that middle and upper class people moved in and cleaned up the neighborhood themselves? That's what's happening in my neighborhood. Vacant lots that used to be filled with garbage are bought, developed, and sold, people move in, call the cops and tell them who and what did what crime, and pick up the garbage that blows around on trash day. The increased density a new property ownership lead them to have an increased desire to create a good community and they get involved in the schools and after school programs to try and make them better. None of that has to do with race. Some of it has to do with class. The asian gentrifiers do it, the black gentrifiers do it, and the hispanic gentrifiers do it too.
I'm not saying everything is innocent or perfectly clean in city politics. Maybe people are steering stuff to certain neighborhoods. But pretending that is the entire picture, or even most of the picture, without a full blown study of the facts is silly and specious.
he has talked shit about his own industry, criticism of his work and most cockishly, other artist's work for twenty years, nonstop.
on racism: he can be inelegant and simplistic in his arguments period, but I never felt he was racist. If anything his views on race relations are vital and a good conversation starter.
as a person and an ego though - he is sometimes his own worst enemy. And it colors perception of his work and the content of his politics.
BlackBanditSho
Member
Thanks for the link! I'll check that out!
EDIT: Yooooo! this book sounds VERY interesting. Snail Mail copy on the way now. Again, much thanks!
No problem! Book was assigned in a Race Relations seminar I took in undergrad. Fantastic read, you'll enjoy it.
zero shift
Banned
This is seriously ridiculous. You think its a mere coincidence that higher income areas have better funded schools and better taken care of roads by people merely contacting the government? You really believe NOBODY out of the countless people in these areas have contacted the government about these things? Do you realize how many organization exist in these communities to demand better policing and cleaning up the streets?
The best part of this post is that gentrification creates ghettos.
teruterubozu
Member
An old ignorant and racist black dude. Just say it, man.
If you improve the services the neighborhood receives in the way you desire, more people will want to live there and property values will go up.
I don't know what can be done about this problem, and yes, it is a problem. You can call it natural or whatever, but I think as human beings we're a bit above letting people get trampled all over due to natural economic progress. I really don't know what the answer is though. I just know that I feel bad when people get pushed out of areas where they have a lot of family history and emotional attachment.
The problem is that's just not feaseable
You have to remember why it was a Ghetto in the first place.
Business Owner aren't going to invest in an area where they can't profit or feel safe.
Landlords aren't going to improve apartments when the cost of improvements are more expensive than a whole year's rent.
Schools aren't going to get better until the parents of the students and the students themselves start giving a shit. (I'm talking about as a whole)
Police response aren't going to be great when they have to response to more other things.
Even then if all this stuff does happen, the place becomes higher in demand, property values increase, property tax increase, rent increase. BAM Gentrification.
Its unavoidable.
entremet
Member
It's really an issue with the way neighborhoods are funded.
It's based on property taxes. When white flight happened it was also a middle tax base that left, affecting the public services severely.
Maybe untie services from property tax? Incidentally that's the issue with school funding as well.
The best teachers go to the burbs since the pay is better as they have a better tax base.
captmcblack
Member
That's just it; these places were a ghetto in the first place because the more wealthy/well-to-do people (who were, are, and continue to be generally dispoportionately white for reasons you can look up in various history and socioeconomic books) left these neighborhoods to get away from non-white minorities who they thought were taking over the areas and making them worse/unsafe. They moved to the suburbs for more space, bigger homes and safer (read: disproportionately whiter) neighborhoods and took their money with them; once all that was left was non-white minorities, businesses left, real estate values plummeted, and the city's interest in providing services or maintaining its housing stock plummeted with it.
Naturally, those areas fell into disrepair, and they were suddenly more affordable - allowing the poor and working class (who again are disproportionately non-white minorities) to move in and establish themselves. Now property taxes are increasing, the economy is tanking making it less reasonable to own expensive suburban property or have to commute at high gas/toll/public transportation expense to enter the city where their jobs are...so naturally they are returning to the places they left initially and helped fall into disrepair in the first place. Of course, it also has the effect of displacing the non-white minorities they wanted to escape as well...and on top of that, those guys that left their expensive suburb to move to cheap nabes in the city are only creating the new ghettos in the suburbs that they left!
If gentrification is "unavoidable", that's fine. If it occurs because naturally better places are more expensive, that's fine. But it needs to be because people respected the neighborhood and the business owners/landlords/schools/police/etc were always doing their best for the neighborhood, and not for the profit or the facilitation of profit.
HappyBivouac
Member
Everyone should see the movie Crooklyn if they haven't.
This. How people fail to understand this simple fact is beyond me.
This. How people fail to understand this simple fact is beyond me.
Aaron Strife
Banned
This reminds me of the Ask Abby column recently where the writers, a homophobic couple, had just moved into a new neighborhood in FL and excluded their gay neighbors from a weekly event where the households take turns hosting parties, and are now being excluded by the other neighbors for being dicks. Like someone who moved in here a month ago has any right to tell their neighbors how to live their lives.
Yeah, it just creates ghettos in harder to live in areas. I don't know if people imagine that those leaving are going to a happy fun land or what.
One factor in NYC is the establishment of BIDs to develop neighborhoods and provide extra services. They're all funded by money from property owners in their respective districts so poor neighborhoods are pretty much screwed even when they have a BID. Meanwhile, BIDs from up-and-coming areas are suddenly flush with cash and start paying for graffiti removal, private security for busy areas, and daily trash pickup for parks and streets.
It can make a big difference and none of it is directly related to city services.
It can make a big difference and none of it is directly related to city services.
NullPointer
Member
People should be happy about getting evicted from their neighborhoods, I mean, just think about how much better the neighborhood is going to get once you're gone.
RustyNails
Member
I'm not sure what the underlying data is with regards to wealthy people moving in and basic services improving. Basic services (like cops, garbage disposal) are not privy to ethnic makeup of a neighborhood. I think it has more to do with mayors and aldermen coming up ways to "redevelop" neighborhoods which includes establishing mid-tier businesses like Panera and Chipotle which in turn attracts wealthy people and hipsters. So I think the sequence is not that hipsters move into predominantly black neighborhoods and attract businesses. It's mayors zoning old parts of the city (ghettos) and attracting wealthier folks.
Of course there are people who just move in because of proximity to downtown or workplace, but I think they are few and far in between and are not responsible for the de-culturization or what have you of these ethnically strong neighborhoods.
Of course there are people who just move in because of proximity to downtown or workplace, but I think they are few and far in between and are not responsible for the de-culturization or what have you of these ethnically strong neighborhoods.
gutter_trash
Banned
young Gustavo Fring (Gian-Carlo Esposito)
Mr.Wreckless
Banned
Except thats not true. It is the influx of wealthy white people as i have seen numerous "wealthy" minority neighborhoods that dont receive even half the attention a white neighborhood will.
i live in a somewhat diverse part of brooklyn. sometimes i would go visit my friend from a different (and much poorer) neighborhood, i always felt welcomed. a few months ago i came by to help, and there were police officers glaring at me, the security guard in the apartment complex giving me the "make my day" look, and even the new neighbors giving me the evil eye.
i was given the keys to let myself in since my friend was going to be a little late coming home, and who knows....with how much bad things i read on neogaf about cops, i probably would be dead when the neighbors brought the cops to investigate. luckily my friend got off work early enough to be there and diffuse the situation. it was on that day, i noticed how much the place changed.
but it's important to look at the bright side, so i joked with my friend and said something like "hey at least this place is much safer now, and you got neighbors that care."
i was given the keys to let myself in since my friend was going to be a little late coming home, and who knows....with how much bad things i read on neogaf about cops, i probably would be dead when the neighbors brought the cops to investigate. luckily my friend got off work early enough to be there and diffuse the situation. it was on that day, i noticed how much the place changed.
but it's important to look at the bright side, so i joked with my friend and said something like "hey at least this place is much safer now, and you got neighbors that care."
AbortedWalrusFetus
Member
Again, show me the actual better funded schools. I would wager that school funding is determined by policy to distribute an equal amount of funding per student, per school. That doesn't magically change because someone asks for it to. Show me how policing can be effective when the cultural status quo is that if you see someone get shot on the street you don't tell a cop who did it? Disrupting that status quo (ie with new residents who don't have a "don't snitch" attitude) will do far more for cleaning up streets than doubling the police budget for an area will. Or do you mean to tell me that new residents adopt the "don't snitch" mentality when they move in the area?
One thing I WILL say is that gentrifying areas probably receive much more in terms of private donations and non-government organizations to help clean up neighborhoods than non-gentrified areas do. Has nothing to do with the city or politics though, that's private money. I touched on this earlier when I explained the Center City District in Philly, for example.
Lionheart1337
Member
The voice I read this in is funnier than the post itself.
I grew up in Flatbush.....*ahem* Ditmas Park. Gentrification may have it's positives or whatever, but the high prices are exactly why I needed to relocate (went from out of state for a couple years to East NY) and I`m still salty about that. ;_;
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
i knew it was gon be good.
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