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[Mr.Wreckless]

Again, show me the actual better funded schools. I would wager that school funding is determined by policy to distribute an equal amount of funding per student, per school. That doesn't magically change because someone asks for it to. Show me how policing can be effective when the cultural status quo is that if you see someone get shot on the street you don't tell a cop who did it? Disrupting that status quo (ie with new residents who don't have a "don't snitch" attitude) will do far more for cleaning up streets than doubling the police budget for an area will. Or do you mean to tell me that new residents adopt the "don't snitch" mentality when they move in the area?

One thing I WILL say is that gentrifying areas probably receive much more in terms of private donations and non-government organizations to help clean up neighborhoods than non-gentrified areas do. Has nothing to do with the city or politics though, that's private money. I touched on this earlier when I explained the Center City District in Philly, for example.

You think snitching cleans up the streets? Snitching doesnt clean up streets, economic power does. If you snitch on criminals but the area is not changed to one that doesnt create criminals then you haven't dont anything.

School funding isnt determined by giving an equal amount of money to each student. They are funded by property taxes. And when the people in power feel like too much of their property taxes is helping people they dont want helped then they fight for their own school districts and often get them. It happened in Memphis and the residents of North Fulton county in GA have been trying for a while to break off and form their own county because their money is helping the people (minorities) in the southern part of the county even a tiny bit. If you look at a high school in northern Fulton county and looked at one in the southern portion its night and day. In Memphis it is especially blatant as residents of Shelby county voted against a tax to help the schools in the county as a whole but voted for a tax that would help fund their own school district.

 

[remnant]

I hate this glorification of the Ghetto.

I live in two areas that went through gentrification.

Brooklyn and New Haven.

I will say thank God for gentrification every time.

I wasn't part of the culture of the neighborhood though.

I grew up in a poor minority immigrant family, a family with 0 assets and a ton of debt from the immigration process. We were probably poorer than most people in the neighborhood.

We lived upstairs of a Chinese Restaurant with like 4 other families. I had to work in the Chinese restaurant at a young age during non-school times to cover boarding cost. I seen my mom have a gun pointed to her head, I had people try to assault me for free chinese food, I've had people try to burn me, I've seen people pee in the corner of the restaurant because I didn't give them more duck sauce, I seen our delivery guys robbed and beaten to near death multiple times. This was all before I was in 4th grade.

I see them now versus what they were. I'll take them now every time.

So yeah, I've sure you all love your culture but to outsiders living in the neighborhood, we rather to safe.

God bless ya, I agree. It's shocking to me, especially among the black community had much people like to wax nostalgic about living in "the ghetto"

My father kidney failed, and when it did my family went from lower middle class to straight up broke, and I had to move into some pretty run down, ratchet, ghetto, whatever you want to call it places as a child.

It sucked. It sucked knowing your neighbors used and sold drugs. It sucked being afraid of stepping out at night. It sucked living in a neighborhood where everyone is just angry all the damn time.

I'm happy when i see my old haunts "gentrified" or whatever.Yeah, more white people will walk around, more starbucks will open, but the streets will be safer, and their wouldn't be this nauseating sense of dread everywhere.

Spike can go live in the ghetto and keep it real. I'll take his house.

 

[Mr.Wreckless]

God bless ya, I agree. It's shocking to me, especially among the black community had much people like to wax nostalgic about living in "the ghetto"

My father kidney failed, and when it did my family went from lower middle class to straight up broke, and I had to move into some pretty run down, ratchet, ghetto, whatever you want to call it places as a child.

It sucked. It sucked knowing your neighbors used and sold drugs. It sucked being afraid of stepping out at night. It sucked living in a neighborhood where everyone is just angry all the damn time.

I'm happy when i see my old haunts "gentrified" or whatever.Yeah, more white people will walk around, more starbucks will open, but the streets will be safer, and their wouldn't be this nauseating sense of dread everywhere.

Spike can go live in the ghetto and keep it real. I'll take his house.

Gentrification may make your old neighborhood safer but what about the neighborhood all the displaced people move to? All you are doing is shifting the ghetto to a different area. An area that makes it even harder for these people to live due to not having access to many of the services in the city.

 

[SRG01]

It's only not an issue if you don't think of things from the perspective of the poor people.

Gentrification is great for rich real estate speculators.

Totally false. I have seen many older communities in Edmonton that have gentrified into fantastic communities, with the support of local businesses and families. And this is in Edmonton, the murder capital of Canada which also has lots of income inequality. You can say the same about Vancouver East-side, where businesses and local people are trying to clean-up the community, but protesters from other parts of the city are commuting in to protest.

As I said earlier, the fear of gentrification is caused by change. People hate change and are naturally resistant to it.

Insofar as income inequality goes, that's not the fault, cause, or symptom of gentrification. That's a really messed up part of Western society that has to be fixed by other means such as encouraging mixed-income neighbourhoods, not by blocking gentrification.

 

[Arkos]

I'll just throw in my 2 cents, I've seen gentrification move fast. Like, weirdly fast. It's kind of disturbing. How the hell is an entire city supposed to run off of rich people who work elsewhere anyway?

Spoiler

I just displayed my ignorance didn't I

 

[remnant]

Gentrification may make your old neighborhood safer but what about the neighborhood all the displaced people move to? All you are doing is shifting the ghetto to a different area. An area that makes it even harder for these people to live due to not having access to many of the services in the city.

They move to areas that were already ghettoes or they make money off the newfound wealth coming into the community and "move on up." if you will.How this is worse than the status quo I don't see it.

 

[Mr.Wreckless]

They move to areas that were already ghettoes or they make money off the newfound wealth coming into the community and "move on up." if you will.How this is worse than the status quo I don't see it.

Except that they dont. Atlanta is proof of that. The people didnt move to another ghetto, they created new mini ghettos all around the outskirts of the city and none of the businesses that sprung up in their old neighborhoods hired people of their economic background.

 

[MiniBossBattle]

Wait, so gentrification is bad? Gentrification is not just for super wealthy but for new families to find housing closer to their work even if it is in a less desirable neighborhood. Its not easy to invest both time and money to renovate flats or worn down/neglected homes (my brother bought a flat with a hole in the bathroom to the next floor lol). Its about investment not just for monetary reasons but for your children and your family. Funny thing is people know that you are trying your best to make your home and area better. I don't think its the intention of individual families to change the ethnic makeup of an area but to bring a new family from often elderly ones.

 

[remnant]

Except that they dont. Atlanta is proof of that. The people didnt move to another ghetto, they created new mini ghettos all around the outskirts of the city and none of the businesses that sprung up in their old neighborhoods hired people of their economic background.

and oakland is proof opposite. new people came in and whoa, employment grew and everyone benefited. It's a overall nicer city becuase of it.

Atlanta sucked before people started moving in. How is it worse today?

Wait, so gentrification is bad? Gentrification is not just for super wealthy but for new families to find housing closer to their work even if it is in a less desirable neighborhood. Its not easy to invest both time and money to renovate flats or worn down/neglected homes (my brother bought a flat with a hole in the bathroom to the next floor lol). Its about investment not just for monetary reasons but for your children and your family. Funny thing is people know that you are trying your best to make your home and area better. I don't think its the intention of individual families to change the ethnic makeup of an area but to bring a new family from often elderly ones.

It's assumed to be for just the super wealthy

 

[TomServo]

EDIT: Never mind, I really don't give a shit.

 

[Stet]

Totally false. I have seen many older communities in Edmonton that have gentrified into fantastic communities, with the support of local businesses and families. And this is in Edmonton, the murder capital of Canada which also has lots of income inequality. You can say the same about Vancouver East-side, where businesses and local people are trying to clean-up the community, but protesters from other parts of the city are commuting in to protest.

As I said earlier, the fear of gentrification is caused by change. People hate change and are naturally resistant to it.

Insofar as income inequality goes, that's not the fault, cause, or symptom of gentrification. That's a really messed up part of Western society that has to be fixed by other means such as encouraging mixed-income neighbourhoods, not by blocking gentrification.

"Cleaning up" isn't gentrification.

 

[gaugebozo]

You know it's easy for him to bitch but is he putting wealth back into the community?

Gentrification is such a first world problem it's almost insulting to hear people bitch about it. You don't hear anyone in Detroit bitching about it. Know why? Cuz making room for an Applebee's is better than burying your dead kids.

This is very late to reply to this, but I grew up in Detroit, and people most certainly bitched about it. The ugly racial politics of the region produced people who would rather the city die then ask for help from the suburbs (and suburbanites who are suspicious of the city they're so proud of).

For example, a philanthropist wanted to donate $200 million in the early 2000's for new schools with little strings attached. This was shortly after the "we can't afford toilet paper for our schools" fiasco. The city turned him down: http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,526339,00.html, and as the mayor said, " 'You've got a lot of poison in the air,' Mayor Kilpatrick told me. 'People here are sensitive about white people bossing them around.' "

 

[CrocMother]

The thing is, there are plenty of black hipsters.

It's not a race thing, it's a class thing.

If young people didn't come move into some of these buildings they'd be abandoned.

 

[NetMapel]

"Cleaning up" isn't gentrification.

I guess I have a hard time differentiating between the two then ? As a person living in Vancouver, I see small improvements happening to our infamous "Eastside." I personally think it's great and whatever "culture" that was cleaned out is probably for the better. I saw a whole street filled with homeless people stuck in the cycle of drug. Quite frankly, it needs to be cleaned up and "gentrified."

 

[GraveRobberX]

DAFUQ!? IS THIS TRUE!?!?!?!

I hope fucking not!

I live here in NYC, Bushwick will always be Bushwick

I will punch anybody in the throat who says how to get to "East Williamsburg", it will always be Bushwick!

 

[Slavik81]

"Cleaning up" isn't gentrification.

Gentrification will be the ultimate result. By cleaning up the neighbourhood, you increase the desirability of living there, and hence the value of the land.

 

[Furyous]

Ok, I don't disagree. But if you provide better services to a neighborhood, it becomes more desirable and people want to move there. So property values increase. According to some, this result should be avoided. Why?

Here's a real life example of why I don't get it. In Portland, recently, Trader Joe's tried to build a store on a vacant lot in a historically black neighborhood that is already being gentrified. A group of people opposed to gentrification made a lot of noise about the deal (TJ's got a very nice subsidy from the city to buy the lot). So TJ's backed out. So now the lot is still vacant, and the neighborhood doesn't get the additional jobs for building and staffing the store. Congrats? How is a vacant lot better than a Trader Joe's?

It's not that simple in Portland's case. Trader Joe's wanted to purchase the land for less than 1/4 the value. That was one of the main problems.

 

[Mr.Wreckless]

and oakland is proof opposite. new people came in and whoa, employment grew and everyone benefited. It's a overall nicer city becuase of it.

Atlanta sucked before people started moving in. How is it worse today?



It's assumed to be for just the super wealthy

Like I said, don't focus on the area the people left, look at the area they moved to. South Fulton and Clayton counties in particular went straight to the dumps once all the section 8 people were relocated there. What was once a pretty mixed area where middle class blacks and whites lived together is now section 8 central and people with means scrambled to get out. Now the people who lived in the city and were trying to eke out a living have an even harder time because they are much further from the jobs and public services they were depending on. People who could afford to commute to work now don't have to and the people who can't afford the long commute now must. How is that good?

And dont forget that gentrification isnt just happening in the ghetto. There were minority neighborhoods that were fine to us but still "undesirable" to whites that have undergone this process. So our families moved to this area 30-40 years ago because it was affordable and the white people didnt want to live there and now you telling us we need to get out because you want your land back. Thats not going over too well at all. And that situation is the one that brings the most anger. It happened in my Grandma's neighborhood. She was one of the last people to leave. You know what her response is when people tell her that gentrification cleaned up her neighborhood, "It wasnt dirty to begin with!".

 

[Zeus Molecules]

Can we all agree on one thing. Changing the names of historical neighborhoods to try to make it sound trendy is a dick move. If you move to Harlem, be proud of it and say you live in Harlem. There is no real justification for changing names if you just trying to move in a neighborhood to live your life and not gentrify/whitewash its identity.

 

[Dead Man]

Can we all agree on one thing. Changing the names of historical neighborhoods to try to make it sound trendy is a dick move. If you move to Harlem, be proud of it and say you live in Harlem. There is no real justification for changing names if you just trying to move in a neighborhood to live your life and not gentrify/whitewash its identity.

That happens everywhere. In the city I live in there is a well thought of suburb called Prospect. So now that houses are not affordable there any more, the middle classes are moving to the suburbs just north of there, which have rather shithouse reputations (I love living here) and so they are now called Prospect North. It's ridiculous but unstoppable.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

That happens everywhere. In the city I live in there is a well thought of suburb called Prospect. So now that houses are not affordable there any more, the middle classes are moving to the suburbs just north of there, which have rather shithouse reputations (I love living here) and so they are now called Prospect North. It's ridiculous but unstoppable.

Doesn't mean it's not a dick move, and it should be conceded the moment locals complain about it because its relatively easy to ignore when you consider that your attempting to change a name that will likely fail. But that is the main issue at the core of gentrification, the fact there is a lack of communication on either side that makes petty disagreements into grudge worthy issues.

My grandmother lives on 103 on the west side and its been "gentrified" since the 90's and neighbors still don't talk to each mostly. Its like two worlds overlapping and its crazy because I don't see it being any different now even as gentrification becomes the norm in cities around the world. I think that's where the frustration comes from. The lack of negotiation on what life in that neighborhood should be like.

 

[theignoramus]

Spike is a rabble rouser. he's been quite the hypocritical, inflammatory prick over the years. He said he made a point of mean mugging black/white couples in the street (maybe he's mellowed on this, he did say it a long time ago) and made movies like Jungle Fever (which heaps scorn on interracial relationships) and Mo Betta Blues (which has nasty Jewish stereotypes)
alot of what he says is valid, but he's tainted as fuck as the messenger and so everything he says will be seen and examined through the prism of his smelly baggage.

 

[Stet]

I guess I have a hard time differentiating between the two then ? As a person living in Vancouver, I see small improvements happening to our infamous "Eastside." I personally think it's great and whatever "culture" that was cleaned out is probably for the better. I saw a whole street filled with homeless people stuck in the cycle of drug. Quite frankly, it needs to be cleaned up and "gentrified."

Gentrification will be the ultimate result. By cleaning up the neighbourhood, you increase the desirability of living there, and hence the value of the land.

Gentrification is a sociological term that refers to a neighbourhood "cleaning up" only because of wealthy residents moving in, not the other way around.

To that extent, I also don't think that simply reducing the crime rate and removing garbage and helping homeless people will raise property values the same way that building condo buildings and boutique stores to appeal to young artists will. One is a neighbourhood growing property values together reasonably, while the other is a sudden bubble that creates wealth disparity in the area.

 

[gutter_trash]

Spike is a rabble rouser. he's been quite the hypocritical, inflammatory prick over the years. He said he made a point of mean mugging black/white couples in the street (maybe he's mellowed on this, he did say it a long time ago) and made movies like Jungle Fever (which heaps scorn on interracial relationships) and Mo Betta Blues (which has nasty Jewish stereotypes)
alot of what he says is valid, but he's tainted as fuck as the messenger and so everything he says will be seen and examined through the prism of his smelly baggage.

Jungle Fever was a horrible movie; he seems to have a total hate on Italian-Americans.

Like 90% of white family and friend chatterers storied in the movie where written as haters.

 

[teruterubozu]

Gentrification means "the gentry" is taking over. Nothing more, nothing less. It's a terrible term to describe a much more complex phenomenon.

 

[Zabka]

Gentrification means "the gentry" is taking over. Nothing more, nothing less. It's a terrible term to describe a much more complex phenomenon.

That's the origin of the word, not how it's defined or used.

 

[DoktorEvil]

Spike is a rabble rouser. he's been quite the hypocritical, inflammatory prick over the years. He said he made a point of mean mugging black/white couples in the street (maybe he's mellowed on this, he did say it a long time ago) and made movies like Jungle Fever (which heaps scorn on interracial relationships) and Mo Betta Blues (which has nasty Jewish stereotypes)
alot of what he says is valid, but he's tainted as fuck as the messenger and so everything he says will be seen and examined through the prism of his smelly baggage.

I think once a studio found a success in Do The Right Thing, he thought he had carte blanche as to the kind of movies and budgets and dialogue he could shape. I don't think anyone ever saw Spike as an extremely great director, but rather as a director of very polarizing movies. There's a reason that the first movie he came back in to direct was Oldboy. For the longest time since briefly leaving film Spike was teaching film at NYU and he was a draw to the schools' film program.

However, the points he does make about gentrification stand. The people that come in have no respect or regard for the people that spent decades in a neighborhood and raised families there. It's not just brown/black people they push out, they also push out enclaves of Eastern European immigrants that came to America and carved their own neighborhoods.
Williamsburg wasn't just a Hispanic area, it was also Italian and Polish.

 

[richiek]

Vandal strikes Spike Lee's former Fort Greene block

An at-large tagger hit the 165 Washington Park family home that Lee referenced during his tirade on the changing demographics of Brooklyn, neighbors said.

The anemic aerosol artist only wrote half of his famous film title “Do The Right Thing” on the side of the stoop.

“I think that Spike needs to stop mentioning the house in his comments,” Lee’s half-brother Arnold, who lives at the home, told the Daily News. “He can say whatever he wants, but don't mention that.”

You would think that after the George Zimmerman debacle, Spike would learn to stop namedropping addresses. Idiot.

 

[Baby Milo]

they need to send him back to idaho in a body bag

Get Out

 

[MiniBossBattle]

If your family member is still living in the area and requests you stop talking about the place he lives in, you should do the right thing and respect your family's request.

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

I felt the need to throw my two cents in this too because of a situation that some of my close family are currently going through. Also wanted to mention that Its not just poorer areas that this can happen to. My relatives who live in this middle-class neighborhood are going to have to move out of their home of 10+ years because of the area being gentrified. Its literally becoming a well-known area for "hipsters", when just a few years ago it was just an ordinary neighborhood. Even though they have great white-collar jobs and are doing well for themselves, they were telling me houses in the area are now reaching near 7figures and not many can keep up. Almost all of their friends in the neighborhood have already been forced out. Its worse that they are nearing retirement and its eating away at them wondering what they have to do to relocate and where because their jobs are so close by.

I understand the pluses of gentrification and what it can do for an area but being on the side of the displaced is just so disheartening.

 

[Slavik81]

Gentrification is a sociological term that refers to a neighbourhood "cleaning up" only because of wealthy residents moving in, not the other way around.

To that extent, I also don't think that simply reducing the crime rate and removing garbage and helping homeless people will raise property values the same way that building condo buildings and boutique stores to appeal to young artists will. One is a neighbourhood growing property values together reasonably, while the other is a sudden bubble that creates wealth disparity in the area.

Not all definitions of gentrification require causality. I didn't even know any did.

In any case, it's kind of irrelevant, as the end result is the same. It doesn't matter if the chicken came first or the egg.

Wealthier residents will attract businesses targeting wealthier residents. Higher property values will lead to higher property taxes and higher rents. Anyone moving to a neighbourhood will change its culture as they add their own to it.

 

[SRG01]

Not all definitions of gentrification require causality. I didn't even know any did.

In any case, it's kind of irrelevant, as the end result is the same. It doesn't matter if the chicken came first or the egg.

Wealthier residents will attract businesses targeting wealthier residents. Higher property values will lead to higher property taxes and higher rents. Anyone moving to a neighbourhood will change its culture as they add their own to it.

I agree with your previous points too.

I would also posit that any source of new money will change neighbourhoods and increase property value. It doesn't matter whether the buyer is wealthy or not, but the fact that there is a transaction taking place is important.

And, personally, change is good.

 

[airmangataosenai]

So people can't complain about loud noise because the person who's making the noise lived there longer? That's cool.

 

[Sub_Level]

As silly as this may sound, I figured Manhattan would actually be for the rich at some point. And with all the hype NYC is getting, maybe half the world will be here soon. I'm looking forward to this:

I'm still waiting for this.

http://www.businessinsider.com/my-micro-ny-wins-adapt-nyc-competition-2013-1

Never 4get

 

[theignoramus]

So people can't complain about loud noise because the person who's making the noise lived there longer? That's cool.

I do think moving to a community that's had live music as a part of its fabric for decades, then phoning in noise complaints can be construed as obnoxious. Its like moving to some neighborhood in New Orleans steeped in musical heritage, then calling cops on people. If you prefer not to deal with live music pulsating through the walls of your home, then why did you move to a neighbourhood teeming with artists? I think you'd have to have quite the sense of entitlement to do that, even if the law is technically on your side.

 

[gutter_trash]

look, neighborhoods change, societies changes, cities change.

you can't harp onto a neighborhood that used to be predominantly to a certain ethnic group then generations later can settled by a different ethnic group.

you can't say ''oh respect the culture of ''our'' group'' in a way that condescends on another group just trying to find a nest to live.

In Montreal, there was a Jewish neighborhood that then became a Portuguese neighborhood that is now becoming a hipster neighborhood. Shit changes.

 

[Fatalah]

Vandal strikes Spike Lee's former Fort Greene block

You would think that after the George Zimmerman debacle, Spike would learn to stop namedropping addresses. Idiot.

Just read this in the Daily News. "Do the Right Thing". Wowza.

 

[entremet]

Vandal strikes Spike Lee's former Fort Greene block

You would think that after the George Zimmerman debacle, Spike would learn to stop namedropping addresses. Idiot.

How do we know who did that wasn't trying to get back at Spike? Blaming him by association?

Who knows really. People have done worse, so I'm going to need more evidence, especially from the NY Daily News, which is a shit paper.

 

[Fatalah]

How do we know who did that wasn't trying to get back at Spike? Blaming him by association?

Who knows really. People have done worse, so I'm going to need more evidence, especially from the NY Daily News, which is a shit paper.

The D News is the ONLY paper.

 

[kick51]

you're*

And this is all BS. Improving an area and building up the property values is bad?

Didn't blacks want equal treatment all these years?

Now they're getting it,

And complaining about it?

Someone explain this to me.

that's actually for a hispanic neighborhood

and i regret posting that if people are gonna take that poster as me putting forth an argument in favor of gentrification and mocking the locals or something. >_<

 

[MC Safety]

Can we all agree on one thing. Changing the names of historical neighborhoods to try to make it sound trendy is a dick move. If you move to Harlem, be proud of it and say you live in Harlem. There is no real justification for changing names if you just trying to move in a neighborhood to live your life and not gentrify/whitewash its identity.

I don't know if you know it, but Haarlem is Dutch.

And Spike Lee is pretty dumb. According to Lee, neighborhoods should be fixed at a very specific point in time. He's against gentrification but okay with stratification.