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[CapNBritain]

I just want to thank Angelus for his contributions in the last thread and his epic first post. His post and others have given me a lot to think about. As an Asian-American who is very Americanized and basically enjoys white privilege, it's always nice to re-examine my views.

 

[lednerg]

I think the problem with the concept of cultural appropriation is how subjective it is, especially in terms of we deem to be guilty of it. It relies mostly on opinions and interpretations of other people's intentions. Take Elvis, for example. He's always being accused of stealing black music and taking credit for it. Except, that's not what he did. Cultural appropriation is one of those things that can only really be considered on a case by case basis unlike, say, institutionalized racism. And even then, we can totally get it wrong. It's not something to be using a broad brush with.

 

[AfroMW]

You haven't noticed a trend in why certain threads blow up so quickly?

Obviously, if everyone here agrees with the OP, there's not much to say except "Yep." "I agree." "Good post." etc.

There's not even something to gather around and turn into a villain in this thread, yet. If OP posted examples of cultural appropriation, with pictures and click baity titles, or even just specific stuff, then yeah you'd have a rush of people initially reacting to the pictures, and then another few people disagreeing, and then a shouting match of 15 or so pages between those groups.

But, a post like this is more a (very good) lecture, and one of the posts here that MIGHT have been able to troll the thread into emotion just got banned. Little snarky posts, of course, will help discussion along, but it may not pertain to the topic anymore (since there's little to be actually snarked upon there).

Of course, my responding to the post I did, and your quoting me, and my response to you, is moving the thread along, so if it's getting bumped for the sake of people reading the OP that's not a problem at all imo, but it always runs the risk of people focusing on interactions like these and not OP's point.

I read his post in that thread and I re-read it here. There wasn't anything for me to contribute.

Admittedly I'm not on this forum too often so I am catching up on these trends

Thanks for taking the time to answer

 

[Trojita]

Amazing how empty this topic is VS. the white child with braids thread. I wonder if it's because there's no white persecution complex to be had? No drive by rage and condemnation to let off some steam at 'black culture'?

And I'm not even implying that those people weren't wrong. I just think it speaks volumes about this community and further strengthens the OP when it comes to the deafening silence that occurs when it comes to discussing the plight of blacks in American society.

Not looking to derail, just disappointed.

1. This is a topic, relevant and having happened for years, but spawned from another thread discussing these things.

2. It's a bit easier to see that some people may be either responding in particular about the opinions promoted in the tweets or commenting on the girl's hair in general. This topic instead is either going to be short comments agreeing or disagreeing with the thread or heavy posts intended for actual discussion.

There's a reason that people were upset with the tweets. The problem is that there are a lot of people that are now "hearable" from twitter that have terrible opinions, even if their problems with something that may seem benign may be resultant from a societal issue.

@JamilahLemieux
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It's feeling like psychological torture, esp against the backdrop of state-sanctioned murder and the #BlackLivesMatter movement...…our bodies, our music, our fashion, our lips, our hair…everything about us is ripe for the picking by people WHO DO NOT TREAT US WELL.

I can understand what he is saying and it goes along with what AE was saying. Black people feel that a part of their culture that is being shamed by and large by the rest of society is being praised when it is appropriated. At times this feels exploitative especially if it is seen in hollywood or world fashion.. But blaming the girl for psychological torture. It is never good to be of the opinion that something only belongs to your group of people.

@melaninbarbie 15h15 hours ago
There is a deep complex reason why black women do not want white women in hair styles associated with our culture.

There is a reason for those as noted above, but it is never appropriate to say you don't want someone associated with the styles of your culture. It is exclusionary.

@90210lovato 17h17 hours ago (a white gay)
11yo mayo appropriates black culture with corn colored box braids and half of twitter doesn't see an issue i gtg

Obviously people are going to be upset with someone calling a person mayo.

@laurensjauregui 18h18 hours ago
this 14 yo girl wearing box braids and acting like she isnt appropriating black culture GOD whites are so annoying

This is of course going to be inflammatory. They are blaming a whole group of people based on their skin color.

@QueenIdle 19h19 hours ago
"War over some braids" Box braids are black culture. We have almost nothing for ourselves. It matters to us.

One of the least inflammatory if at all.

@vindictivemuse 19h19 hours ago

BLACK CULTURE IS NOT WHITE CULTURE. AS MUCH AS I LOVE BLACK CULTURE I KNOW IT IS NOT MINE TO BE HAD. STOP WITH THE BRAIDS WHITE GIRLS.

I'm not sure if this was directed at the girl or the people complaining about the people complaining. Though again being exclusionary isn't good.

@sanyulukwago 4m4 minutes ago
@pukestagram box braids are black culture and the basis of the arguments were that culturally black hairstyles are considered unprofessional and ghetto on black girls, but praised on white girls. it wasn't about feminism.

Not even inflammatory.

Discussion can and should focus on how society as a whole can change their negative viewpoints on cultural distinctions of less represented groups. Black people do have a right to have a reaction to people who only praise something if done by a white person.

Sorry if this post seems rushed. I didn't have a lot of time.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I just want to thank Angelus for his contributions in the last thread and his epic first post. His post and others have given me a lot to think about. As an Asian-American who is very Americanized and basically enjoys white privilege, it's always nice to re-examine my views.

Glad you took something from it. Though white privilege isn't really what you have. Asian Americans suffer in their own way (painfully low media representation...I'd totally create a movie studio to counter that if I were rich). It's more the "model minority" status (not that I'm trying to insult you or put down Asians). Unfortunately many people will pull the "why don't you people act more like Asians. They came to America and are successful!" type nonsense.

Though it wasn't always sunshine and roses. As an example during the Japanese internment, many upon many Japanese Americans cried out about cultural appropriations. While they were caged like animals, Americans were opening up "sushi" restaurants, Japanese trinkets and nick-knack stores, karate dojos (this happened a lot on the West coast). It wasn't so much that Japanese Americans were trying to say "you guys can't do that, that's ours!" And more of "How can you profit off us while keeping us caged up and treated like we're nothing!?".

I only know this because my HS GF's grandparents had their restaurant taken from them when they were sent to internment camp and it went under new management while claiming to be "authentic Japanese food" but didn't have a single Japanese cook or server. It took the family forever to get it back.

 

[Schlep]

Your logic is: address the symptom and not the cause? How do you think this attraction for straight hair and Eurocentric features came to be? Through magic? Just because?

Again, I never argued that media and society do not affect perceived beauty. I said that if actual change is to be enacted, it has to start somewhere, and that seems like the most logical place. If what you want is to talk about how much it sucks that the 'ideal' in this country for decades has been a blonde haired, blue eyed white girl, that's fine. I agree and can say I don't personally find that ideal at all. If what you want is to say, "how do we fix this?" then you have to ask what's realistic. Is it more realistic that the black community pushes natural hair as the new style, or that the media all of the sudden stops glorifying white girls, especially blonde ones, as the definition of beauty? I have seen a small push among the high school/college aged generation to go natural, but it's nowhere near the norm right now.

Nope because society at large would still force them to get their hair a certain way. When large corporations and military say that only certain styles are permitted it will keep everything as the status quo unfortunately. That and it's reinforced throughout all avenues of American society from the movies to the magazine covers to TV shows.

It's a constant feedback loop, society tells them to wear their hair a certain way, the people internalize it and tell each other that their hair should be a certain way, they believe their hair should be a certain way, society sees their hair is a certain way and hire more people whose hair is the same way to keep the cycle going.

Agree on the feedback loop. I'd argue that a substantial reason behind the large corporations and military holding that view, again, is complete ignorance on the subject.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Agree on the feedback loop. I'd argue that a substantial reason behind the large corporations and military holding that view, again, is complete ignorance on the subject.

It definitely is, and the problem is when people try to voice their issues with it. It's met with handwaving and "Get over it", or even worse "just get it straighten" along with the more subtle "We just want a professional look" or other such nonsense.

It's no coincidence that vast majority of African American men keep a brush cut.

 

[Derwind]

I think the problem with the concept of cultural appropriation is how subjective it is, especially in terms of we deem to be guilty of it. It relies mostly on opinions and interpretations of other people's intentions. Take Elvis, for example. He's always being accused of stealing black music and taking credit for it. Except, that's not what he did. Cultural appropriation is one of those things that can only really be considered on a case by case basis unlike, say, institutionalized racism.

I feel differently (not the Elvis part, I'm honestly not too familiar with the Elvis thing), cultural appropriation is a reflection of institutionalized racism, its also the product born out of it.

I think some get too focused on the idea of "cultural theft" but how I see it and I imagine many others do too, in that its not about that the usage of black culture per se but the reaction towards it.

Like Angelus mentioned in his OP, black people and particularly black women in this case have extremely unfair standards thrown at them and have to conform who they are because their natural look or culture is considered "less" or "ugly" or in modern terms "too urban".

And then you get someone who in this example happens to be white and adopt black culture and are now trendy and cool.

And thats all well and good but despite all that "trendyness", black women still are seen as "ghetto". The status quo doesn't change for the black community.

Thats what cultural appropriation means to me and I imagine many others.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

You haven't noticed a trend in why certain threads blow up so quickly?

Obviously, if everyone here agrees with the OP, there's not much to say except "Yep." "I agree." "Good post." etc.

There's not even something to gather around and turn into a villain in this thread, yet. If OP posted examples of cultural appropriation, with pictures and click baity titles, or even just specific stuff, then yeah you'd have a rush of people initially reacting to the pictures, and then another few people disagreeing, and then a shouting match of 15 or so pages between those groups.

But, a post like this is more a (very good) lecture, and one of the posts here that MIGHT have been able to troll the thread into emotion just got banned. Little snarky posts, of course, will help discussion along, but it may not pertain to the topic anymore (since there's little to be actually snarked upon there).

Of course, my responding to the post I did, and your quoting me, and my response to you, is moving the thread along, so if it's getting bumped for the sake of people reading the OP that's not a problem at all imo, but it always runs the risk of people focusing on interactions like these and not OP's point.

I read his post in that thread and I re-read it here. There wasn't anything for me to contribute.

And yet people are contributing. See Amirox, Trey, Nerfgun, soundahfekz etc.

While I agree with the OP (and it is a very good OP) it's not like there's nothing to discuss.

The reason threads like this usually don't grow as big and as fast as others is because it's a controversial topic and those that do disagree are either too stupid, too racist, or too scared to voice their opinion.

 

[User 73706]

Seems a little cart before the horse to me. I hope we can work through something trivial like white people "discovering" twerking before systemic racial problems are resolved forever.

I didn't take the sentiment at face value, e.g. "we have to do this before we can do that." I got the impression that his point was "without racism - the notion that adopting cultural norms or properties with an air of doubt and/or related controversy - cultural appropriation can not exist [by the confines of its current definition]."

He's not asking for "cultural appropriation" in the most literal sense to disappear, it's more that when racism isn't a thing, it'd simply be "cultural exchange" rather than something implied as being "taken" the way appropriation assumes.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I feel differently (not the Elvis part, I'm honestly not too familiar with the Elvis thing), cultural appropriation is a reflection of institutionalized racism, its also the product born out of it.

It really is, which is why it perplexes me when people try to divorce the two. They're intrinsically linked.

I think some get too focused on the idea of "cultural theft" but how I see it and I imagine many others do too, in that its not about that the usage of black culture per se but the reaction towards it.

Like Angelus mentioned in his OP, black people and particularly black women in this case have extremely unfair standards thrown at them and have to conform who they are because their natural look or culture is considered "less" or "ugly" or in modern terms "too urban".

And then you get someone who in this example happens to be white and adopt black culture and are now trendy and cool.

And thats all well and good but despite all that "trendyness", black women still are seen as "ghetto". The status quo doesn't change for the black community.

Thats what cultural appropriation means to me and I imagine many others.

This.

 

[Valhelm]

I think that one big issue white people take with cultural appropriation is that they don't see races as having their own cultures. White people tend to not be very conscious of their own race, and if you ask them to describe "white culture", they'll be confused.

Because of this, a lot of white people associate hip hop, box braids, jazz, or certain dances with black people without believing them to be "owned" by black people, just as they wouldn't consider Volvos or classical music to be "owned" by white people.

 

[andycapps]

I only read a little bit of the previous thread, but the OP is a good one. Gives me some things to think about. Not much else to say other than that.

 

[CapNBritain]

Glad you took something from it. Though white privilege isn't really what you have. Asian Americans suffer in their own way (painfully low media representation...I'd totally create a movie studio to counter that if I were rich). It's more the "model minority" status (not that I'm trying to insult you or put down Asians). Unfortunately many people will pull the "why don't you people act more like Asians. They came to America and are successful!" type nonsense.

Though it wasn't always sunshine and roses. As an example during the Japanese internment, many upon many Japanese Americans cried out about cultural appropriations. While they were caged like animals, Americans were opening up "sushi" restaurants, Japanese trinkets and nick-knack stores, karate dojos (this happened a lot on the West coast). It wasn't so much that Japanese Americans were trying to say "you guys can't do that, that's ours!" And more of "How can you profit off us while keeping us caged up and treated like we're nothing!?".

I only know this because my HS GF's grandparents had their restaurant taken from them when they were sent to internment camp and it went under new management while claiming to be "authentic Japanese food" but didn't have a single Japanese cook or server. It took the family forever to get it back.

Yeah, I don't really know what to call my circumstance, it's just that in my personal case, it lines up with everything I've heard about white privilege. Model minority status is probably a more accurate description, but I don't think it carries the same meaning that I try to put forth. And while your example about the Japanese internment camps is very true, it doesn't have the same kind of effect on a lot of the Asian community that slavery, segregation, etc. have had on the black community.

I'm a first generation Taiwanese-American, so despite being "Asian", I am really far removed from the Japanese-American experience. I feel like I have never faced serious discrimination in my life and have lived most of my life being "colorblind" both in how I view others. This can be a good thing in many ways, but it also prevented me from seeing that many people didn't have the same luxury I had. And maybe it's keeping me from seeing the truth about my own circumstances.

Regardless of my own situation, posts/threads like these in NeoGaf have definitely been eye-opening. I hope that it helps others re-examine their own viewpoints, and gets those that aren't traditionally included in discussions about the white/black dynamic (Asians, Latinos, etc) to share their own experiences.

 

[Valhelm]

The final post in the other thread basically furthers my point about how many white people aren't race-conscious. The other thread is locked, so I'll post this here.

Maybe I misunderstood the GIF however I don't see why anyone should get upset over someone of a different race using something from their supposed culture. That's stupid. I couldn't care less if somebody started taking aspects associated with my races' "culture" and using it.

Am I missing something?

The thing so many white people (including yourself, assuming you are white) don't realize is that culture and race are very closely tied. Race is not just skin color or ancestry, because race is a socially-constructed idea that associates culture, stereotypes, and history with visual appearance.

While you could argue that the entire "black race" (meaning everybody of African descent who has dark skin) has no specific culture, this specific context is talking about African American culture, which absolutely has a very rich culture and a long history of that culture being denied or commodified.

Cultural bias is the root of pretty much all racism. It's the reason why many white racists will love their Indian neighbors while distrusting black families that move in.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Yeah, I don't really know what to call my circumstance, it's just that in my personal case, it lines up with everything I've heard about white privilege. Model minority status is probably a more accurate description, but I don't think it carries the same meaning that I try to put forth. And while your example about the Japanese internment camps is very true, it doesn't have the same kind of effect on a lot of the Asian community that slavery, segregation, etc. have had on the black community.

I'm a first generation Taiwanese-American, so despite being "Asian", I am really far removed from the Japanese-American experience. I feel like I have never faced serious discrimination in my life and have lived most of my life being "colorblind" both in how I view others. This can be a good thing in many ways, but it also prevented me from seeing that many people didn't have the same luxury I had. And maybe it's keeping me from seeing the truth about my own circumstances.

Regardless of my own situation, posts/threads like these in NeoGaf have definitely been eye-opening. I hope that it helps others re-examine their own viewpoints, and gets those that aren't traditionally included in discussions about the white/black dynamic (Asians, Latinos, etc) to share their own experiences.

Oh yea I agree. I wasn't trying to compare your life to that of Japanese-Americans. I was just trying to show that at one point some Asian Americans had a rough time in the US and because they were being oppressed they retreated inward and became apprehensive of others who would find joy in their culture but effectively didn't want the people that came with it. It was mostly to show why groups yell culture appropriation. It's much less about "you're doing our thing" and more "hey there's this crazy double standard when it comes to this that affects us negatively and you postively and no one refuses to acknowledge it"

Sorry for that tidbit of misunderstanding.

 

[soundahfekz]

Again, I never argued that media and society do not affect perceived beauty. I said that if actual change is to be enacted, it has to start somewhere, and that seems like the most logical place. If what you want is to talk about how much it sucks that the 'ideal' in this country for decades has been a blonde haired, blue eyed white girl, that's fine. I agree and can say I don't personally find that ideal at all. If what you want is to say, "how do we fix this?" then you have to ask what's realistic. Is it more realistic that the black community pushes natural hair as the new style, or that the media all of the sudden stops glorifying white girls, especially blonde ones, as the definition of beauty? I have seen a small push among the high school/college aged generation to go natural, but it's nowhere near the norm right now.

This is almost literally the equivalent of saying black people should hoist up on those ol' bootstraps, except you're applying to slavery and discrimination ingrained self hatred.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

I can understand the harm done by cultural appropriation, but where is the line between appropriation and appreciation/homage to those cultures?

Is it mainly in the way in which wider culture reacts differently to black/white use of cultural markers/goods or is it in the use of those markers? Because I'm sure many young people appropriate culture outside of their own (whatever that might mean) as a means of appreciation or homage to another culture, however clumsy it may end up being.

Is there some relative value in some degree of appropriation in order to facilitate cultural awareness amongst some other groups? Or is the tendency to just appreciate the appropriated form and ignore the original form of it? My thought is that it is generally harmful but depending on the way it is done can be of some use to getting wider culture to appreciate its original form.

Of course, in general, I don't feel like there's much to be gained by yelling at people over Twitter over it.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Again, I never argued that media and society do not affect perceived beauty. I said that if actual change is to be enacted, it has to start somewhere, and that seems like the most logical place. If what you want is to talk about how much it sucks that the 'ideal' in this country for decades has been a blonde haired, blue eyed white girl, that's fine. I agree and can say I don't personally find that ideal at all. If what you want is to say, "how do we fix this?" then you have to ask what's realistic. Is it more realistic that the black community pushes natural hair as the new style, or that the media all of the sudden stops glorifying white girls, especially blonde ones, as the definition of beauty? I have seen a small push among the high school/college aged generation to go natural, but it's nowhere near the norm right now.

Simplest solution would be media can continue to glamorous white women (because there's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all). And instead of always pushing/forcing/requiring their black models to have straight hair, simply allow said models to rock natural hair. Allow actresses to appear on TV with natural hair styles. Young black girls will see that it's okay to not to ruin their scalp in the pursuit of straight hair and some might just adopt natural hair and feel proud. And if some black girls still want to straighten their hair then that's okay to.

 

[Kinitari]

Thanks Angelus.

Reading your post, there's a couple of things I want to highlight.

One, I understand the argument you're making. I get it, in as much as I can as a white dude. Which is to say I can empathize, but probably not really understand. I am not reminded every damn day, as a POC might be.

Two, my view might be coloured somewhat by the fact that I am Canadian, and I live in Toronto, which is one of the most multicultural cities in North America (around 50% white). I do not see a lot of outright racism at all, although i do see a lot of 'soft' racism.

Reading your points, I am still of the opinion that the phrase "cultural appropriation" isn't particularly useful. I say this because I think (I mentioned this in the box braids thread) that this phase attempts to put a negative label on a phenomenon that is both a sympton of racism – it's "better" when white people do it – as well as something that I regard as a positive function of society, which is the intermingling of cultures from many parts of the world.

At the end, I arrive basically at the same place you do Angelus, albeit via a different route; you'd have to get rid of racism altogether for "cultural appropriation" to go away. Where I differ is in thinking that CA is something to get upset about. Now, I don't really get to make that call for other people, in a larger sense. I don't get to say whether or not someone ought to be upset. But I can question the validity of that outrage on simple terms. I think black people (to pick one example, a prominent example in N.A. but hardly exclusive-to) are justifiably upset for historical and modern reasons both. They are still treated as second class in many cases – we have all seen the studies about resumes, names, all that. It sucks. Racism sucks. We agree.

But in terms of body image problems: these are not unique to black people. White teenagers test higher than anyone for bulemia and anorexia. Blonde, thin women are the standard for essentially everyone in western culture. Body dysmorphic disorder is not unique to black people. Mainstream beauty "standards" affect almost everyone.

In terms of other cultural artifacts: I remember this discussion when the Beastie Boys first appeared. I remember this discussion when The Police appeared, a bunch of white british guys playing reggae. I remember when Led Zeppelin was accused of ripping off blues music. And of course, the Beatles with their myriad (and loudly credited) influences, and then probably the original CA "example" which was Elvis dancing like a black guy. Elvis might be the only true example of CA. I see all of these as positive moves. No one accused Hootie and the Blowfish of cultural appropriation. The intermingling and mutual respect for a culture can only be positive, long-run, in my mind. I think it helps race relations tremendously in fact.

Another example I can think of is American sports. I think baseball, basketball and particularly American football have moved the needle significantly on race relations. To be crass for a sec, you just know there were and are a bunch of racist chuckleheads in middle America who have had their insular views of black people rearranged because we turned several black athletes into gigantic heroes and superstars.

Which brings me to this:



You are just talking about racism. Straight racism. There's nothing to do with the culture there. That is a misdirection, in my mind.

Your comic example, the geeks all bent out of shape because comics are 'mainstream' now? I think their anger is misplaced as well. They didn't lose anything. There are simply more forms available. And of course, of course, there are lots of black artists and musicians and fashion designers. Of course, there is money to be made there, of course everyone recognizes where it came from. But it shouldn't matter.

So you see, hopefully, how I arrive where you did – we must get rid of racism – via a different road. But this "cultural appropriation" phrase, which is typically used as a verbal bludgeon to say "you don't get it, you ignorant twit, check your privilege", is not particularly useful. You are yelling at an aspect, and it's all in the eye of the beholder.

Were I really into reggae/rasta culture – say I loved the music and everything about that scene – I would really have no idea how to "tastefully" engage in that culture, as a white person, without potentially pissing someone off. I would probably decide that as long as I wasn't hurting anyone directly, it doesn't matter.

Yeah this is basically exactly how I feel. Heck, I also live in Toronto so I -get- what you mean when you say it's different here. I am not white though, that's the biggest difference.

 

[gerg]

I feel differently (not the Elvis part, I'm honestly not too familiar with the Elvis thing), cultural appropriation is a reflection of institutionalized racism, its also the product born out of it.

I think some get too focused on the idea of "cultural theft" but how I see it and I imagine many others do too, in that its not about that the usage of black culture per se but the reaction towards it.

Like Angelus mentioned in his OP, black people and particularly black women in this case have extremely unfair standards thrown at them and have to conform who they are because their natural look or culture is considered "less" or "ugly" or in modern terms "too urban".

And then you get someone who in this example happens to be white and adopt black culture and are now trendy and cool.

And thats all well and good but despite all that "trendyness", black women still are seen as "ghetto". The status quo doesn't change for the black community.

Thats what cultural appropriation means to me and I imagine many others.

While I think it's important to highlight how cultural appropriation operates in the manner you highlight, I think it's at best unhelpful and at worst disingenuous to frame cultural appropriation as an act that takes place exclusively by an oppressive majority against an oppressed minority. As I've highlighted in other threads, the discourse surrounding British youth subcultures frequently highlights their use of cultural appropriation as acts of cultural resistance; to use an alternative example, is not the reclaiming of terms such as "queer" by the gay community an act of linguistic, and therefore cultural, appropriation?

My personal interest in these discussions is in how it might be possible to highlight the problems associated with an assimilative normative culture (especially within a capitalist, post-modern context) without recourse to cultural essentialism. In an environment where any identity can be adapted, modified and subsumed, is it possible to have any effective cultural resistance? (The life cycle of British subcultures, for example, has AFAIK always led to their assimilation into mainstream culture.) To ask an even broader question, is it possible to have a coherent understanding of multiculturalism that doesn't ultimately support an essentialist conception of culture?

 

[tfur]

I think the problem with the concept of cultural appropriation is how subjective it is, especially in terms of we deem to be guilty of it. It relies mostly on opinions and interpretations of other people's intentions. Take Elvis, for example. He's always being accused of stealing black music and taking credit for it. Except, that's not what he did. Cultural appropriation is one of those things that can only really be considered on a case by case basis unlike, say, institutionalized racism. It's not something to be using a broad brush with.

Everyone is guilty of cultural appropriation.

1) All culture is appropriated upon exposure. From the anthropological level, down to the bacteria and viral level. From genes to gestures, all culture is appropriated in varying degrees. Sometimes if deemed for utility, fashion, entertainment, etc... or even subconsciously.

2) All culture will be appropriated. It will happen with our without our approval or acceptance. It is the nature of humanity, biology and chemistry.

I think the reality of these 2 points "upsets" a bit of the reasoning.

We have historical injustice/grievances projected onto something that is a logical inevitability of cultural exposure and mixing.

We have people upset with something they will never be able to control.

 

[lednerg]

I feel differently (not the Elvis part, I'm honestly not too familiar with the Elvis thing), cultural appropriation is a reflection of institutionalized racism, its also the product born out of it.

I think some get too focused on the idea of "cultural theft" but how I see it and I imagine many others do too, in that its not about that the usage of black culture per se but the reaction towards it.

Like Angelus mentioned in his OP, black people and particularly black women in this case have extremely unfair standards thrown at them and have to conform who they are because their natural look or culture is considered "less" or "ugly" or in modern terms "too urban".

And then you get someone who in this example happens to be white and adopt black culture and are now trendy and cool.

And thats all well and good but despite all that "trendyness", black women still are seen as "ghetto". The status quo doesn't change for the black community.

Thats what cultural appropriation means to me and I imagine many others.

Is the white artist/performer who accepts and adopts a part of black culture to blame, or is it the way mass media is conditioned to belittle black culture in the first place? To me, the former is a form of admiration by an individual, the latter is a systemic problem.

 

[sir_kevith]

It's a good thing to think about and be aware of and I don't see how anyone would think otherwise. I feel like people have a hard time separating when it's an inconsequential thing (simply a product of post-modernism?) vs when it's offensive or harmful. The good thing about all of this is that it gives us an opportunity to learn about cultures and the origins of things we'd otherwise take for granted.

Hip Hop is probably the most recent music movement that depends heavily on appropriated samples from all kinds of cultures. Sure, it's led to a lot of butting of heads in the music world but I've learned a lot from following the sample to an original. The use of some samples is highly offensive to people but it's up to the artist whether they want to use it for that beat or not and deal with the repercussions.

It's important to look at these things and keep an open mind. I'm sure American style yoga studios piss of traditionalists to no end but is it actually harmful? Maybe it should be labeled exercise inspired by yoga but it's so popular I don't know if that's a fight worth having at this point. There's a lot of valid reasons to criticize it though and we should acknowledge that.

 

[CapNBritain]

Oh yea I agree. I wasn't trying to compare your life to that of Japanese-Americans. I was just trying to show that at one point some Asian Americans had a rough time in the US and because they were being oppressed they retreated inward and became apprehensive of others who would find joy in their culture but effectively didn't want the people that came with it. It was mostly to show why groups yell culture appropriation. It's much less about "you're doing our thing" and more "hey there's this crazy double standard when it comes to this that affects us negatively and you postively and no one refuses to acknowledge it"

Sorry for that tidbit of misunderstanding.

Oh, no misunderstanding at all, I get what you were saying. And I actually didn't know about Japanese-American experience. I mean, I knew about the internment camps, but when you juxtapose that with the trend of sushi shops, karate dojos, etc. that were culturally appropriated, it adds a whole new level of injustice that is another interesting example of what this topic is about.

I think it'd be fascinating to hear about how this topic affected different races in the past and whether or not they are still affected. The Asian experience is just so different from the black experience, because Asian covers so many different cultures, and in America, new waves of immigrants are constantly changing attitudes and customs.

 

[Derwind]

It really is, which is why it perplexes me when people try to divorce the two. They're intrinsically linked.

This.

Unless there is a real lynch mob going around attacking black people, there is no such thing as racism in the post-Obama US.

Also people really focus on the words used than trying to understand the message being put across, which is why you see people getting so jumpy around words like "privilige" and "entitlement".

Is the white artist/performer who accepts and adopts a part of black culture to blame, or is it the way mass media is conditioned to belittle black culture in the first place? To me, the former is a form of admiration by an individual, the latter is a systemic problem.

The former I don't quite understand as it sounds fragmented but white artist and performers are allowed to adopt whatever culture they like.

The latter [Bolded] is a part of institutionalized racism.

 

[theignoramus]

Amazing how empty this topic is VS. the white child with braids thread. I wonder if it's because there's no white persecution complex to be had? No drive by rage and condemnation to let off some steam at 'black culture'?

And I'm not even implying that those people weren't wrong. I just think it speaks volumes about this community and further strengthens the OP when it comes to the deafening silence that occurs when it comes to discussing the plight of blacks in American society.

Not looking to derail, just disappointed.

soundafekz stays coming with the ether

 

[soundahfekz]

I can understand the harm done by cultural appropriation, but where is the line between appropriation and appreciation/homage to those cultures?

Is it mainly in the way in which wider culture reacts differently to black/white use of cultural markers/goods or is it in the use of those markers? Because I'm sure many young people appropriate culture outside of their own (whatever that might mean) as a means of appreciation or homage to another culture, however clumsy it may end up being.

Is there some relative value in some degree of appropriation in order to facilitate cultural awareness amongst some other groups? Or is the tendency to just appreciate the appropriated form and ignore the original form of it? My thought is that it is generally harmful but depending on the way it is done can be of some use to getting wider culture to appreciate its original form.

Of course, in general, I don't feel like there's much to be gained by yelling at people over Twitter over it.

Cultural appropriation can be an aggregate, meaning the person who is the focal point of the appropriation accusation may not have had intent to do so. The appropriation occurs when said individual is credited or complimented in ways in others who historically embody a style, fashion, or type of song never experience. In fact, they are criticized or ridiculed for the same exact things.

See Macklemore and Eminem, who have to their credit acknowledged the foundation of their craft is founded by blacks (and hispanics). They've 'paid homage'. In my eyes they are not the initiator of the appropriation, but white America catapults white artists who create the same content as their black counterparts to heights unseen by the latter.

This causes a crossfire in which someone who doesn't intend to offend is both propped up as a savior and crucified as villain by each side alike. The most gross offensive is an Iggy Azalea who refuses to acknowledge the benefits of cultural appropriation, and spits in the face of those who speak on it.

 

[Skyzard]

Does the twerking example work for everyone? Eh, seems like it's not in the OP, maybe I'm getting confused. Like it was too trashy before but now it's not trashy? Or just white people do it more after she did it.

 

[Trojita]

Does the twerking example work for everyone?

I always thought the "Harlem Shake" sensation from a few years ago was worse. First time I saw that thing "The fuck is that? That isn't the Harlem Shake. This is *Imagine Dog doing Harlem Shake*.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Relevant video, watch the evolution. Many of these styles were deemed ugly, tacky and hideous by society at large.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTp9c9bsY_Q

 

[Infinite]

Does the twerking example work for everyone? Eh, seems like it's not in the OP, maybe I'm getting confused. Like it was too trashy before but now it's not trashy? Or just white people do it more after she did it.

Yeah if you're looking at cultural appropriation through the same lens that everyone in this thread is which is to put it simply the majority culture being celebrated for and profiting from things deriving from a marginalized minority culture who were shamed for the doing the same. Although twerking is a rather polluted example of this point because of shitty arguments from both sides that we endured all last year.

 

[Anjin M]

This helped me understand the topic a lot better. Thanks!

 

[Beelzebufo]

I'm not sure I get the "they just want to be given credit where credit is due" thing. I still thought the hair looked really ugly on the twitter girl, what bothered me was the responses she got. Wouldn't wearing your hair like that be the best way to acknowledge that you think it looks good? I'm sure I'm misunderstanding something, because everyone except the child seemed to be acting childish.

 

[radios shipping overview]

As for the issues of appropriation, to me it's akin to hipsters and their "sell-out" musicians and comic book fans upset that they liked Iron Man when he was a B-list superhero. Why should increasing popularity and visibility of the thing you like ruin that thing for you? You can't own culture; like it or not, it's going to mutate, and change, and spread, and sometimes it ends up representing things you don't agree with, or used in ways you didn't intend. C'est la vie.

My problem with this comparison is that it doesn't consider the power differential involved in different types of appropriation. Power differential is the best way to understand whether it's okay to take from a culture or to make jokes about a group. It's why it's not okay for nonblacks to use the N-word and why the best comedy punches up, not down. If the appropriation involves a powerful group taking something from a less powerful group, or if the joke is being made at the expensive of a group that is less fortunate or has no power, then it's not okay.

If I, as a super-wappy weeaboo male, decided to learn Japanese and use chopsticks, it doesn't matter because there is no power differential. It's a sideways transfer. If a mega-selling white pop star takes and uses something of cultural significance (say, a Native American headdress) from an oppressed group, when that cultural item carries value and significance (in this case, religious) for that group, the power differential is large and the act becomes exploitative.

 

[Sir Blaming]

Hmm, well, I got nothing to really contribute due to me staying in Malaysia. It's a really good read, and says alot on what is going on in a different society.

All I can say is that perception is key. If you think that black people are bad, you will try to cement that idea as a right thing. I think education is helping younger generation to understand different cultures and accept them. The only problem I think, is older people and how they percept things; as older one gets, I realised that they have a harder time to admit their wrong, and due to that try everything to prove they are righteous.

Now of course, please read this with the knowledge that I have not seen much of the world yet, and this may be riddled with holes of inexperience. I get there though.

 

[Skyzard]

Yeah if you're looking at cultural appropriation through the same lens that everyone in this thread is which is to put it simply the majority culture being celebrated for and profiting from things deriving from a marginalized minority culture who were shamed for the doing the same. Although tweaking is a rather polluted example at this point because of shitty arguments from both sides that we endured all last year.

I'm just learning about the term cultural appropriation after the last thread tbh, but it seems to me like it's being used as an umbrella term to cover lots of different issues that are somewhat race sensitive.

Like that young white girl with the hairstyle still doesn't look professional in the way I am familiar. She's not getting any credit other than oh that looks interesting on you.
The idea that sharing of culture isn't accepted until all issues are sorted is hostile and backwards.
Embracing the culture helps to make it acceptable. "You don't have permission from our group because of x, y and z" does the opposite.

It's like just lots of different things getting tagged as one thing to me...

Mocking of group traits
Beauty preferences (many parts of the world)
Individual differences
Professional acceptance of hairstyles/different races
Group tensions

What ties them? Not being sensitive enough to different issues? Isn't that just cultural awareness and acceptance. Doesn't seem like reason to find a mimicking/"stealing" of traits as offensive unless you are okay with having an individual take on a large groups' responsibility for negativity or lack of acceptance.

It seems like a term to talk down to someone because of issues out of their control. By a vague general guilt instead of raising awareness of certain issues independently.

 

[soundahfekz]

Everyone is guilty of cultural appropriation.

1) All culture is appropriated upon exposure. From the anthropological level, down to the bacteria and viral level. From genes to gestures, all culture is appropriated in varying degrees. Sometimes if deemed for utility, fashion, entertainment, etc... or even subconsciously.

2) All culture will be appropriated. It will happen with our without our approval or acceptance. It is the nature of humanity, biology and chemistry.

I think the reality of these 2 points "upsets" a bit of the reasoning.

We have historical injustice/grievances projected onto something that is a logical inevitability of cultural exposure and mixing.

We have people upset with something they will never be able to control.

1. This ain't the matrix, bruh.

2. Appropriation in relation to a specific culture is not an inevitability, nor does it have to be. Whether you view it as fair or not, those who thrive due to appropriation should see it as a social responsibility to educate and introduce followers to the source their music(fashion insert category here) is derived from, when that particular group is excluded from the same level of exposure merely due to race or ethnicity.

This is not asking for "permission" from blacks. It is simply the morally correct thing to do given the circumstances and adversity we still face on a race related basis.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

mah boy Angelus is shining bright like a diamond

*tears*

 

[gerg]

1. This ain't the matrix, bruh.

Any culture is necessarily appropriated inasmuch as an intrinsic part of culture is that it is shared within a group. You can't have a culture of one. Arguments about cultural appropriation may focus on how that sharing should be theorised, regulated or discouraged, but ultimately for any culture to thrive it will need to be appropriated among a group of individuals.

 

[wildfire]

I think you misunderstood what I'm saying. There are a lot of influences on black female hair, but one of the bigger points is always going to be how they feel it affects their potential to attract someone. If overnight, the vast majority of black guys decided that wigs and weave were unattractive and preferred a natural hairstyle instead, there'd be a sea change.

Again, I understand the effect of the media and perceived beauty, but at the same time, I think that particular change has to come from within the black community as white people, in general, haven't a single clue about the efforts black women go through for their hair.

The problem isn't with black men. The problem is with white people who will pick out any detail to mark someone as unrespctable for hiring or social clique purposes.

If it was just a social problem, whatever. But there is an economic component as well. Nappy hair shouldn't be the equivicated with tattoos but some people give that impression.

 

[Trojita]

In respect to hair, it should be noted that in America "non-standard" hair was criticized and at times ridiculed in the past routinely. If your hair wasn't cut short and parted to the side (for guys), you weren't seen as a part of "modern civilization" as the industrialized North America would see it. A kid wasn't considered appropriate for school unless their hair was "neat". Going into a job interview with long hair years ago, even if kept well, would be laughed at. A white kid with unbrushed hair would be chastised in school. Native Americans were forced to cut their hair when forced to go to an English school and take a "Christian" name. African Americans were forced to cut their hair basically to nothing to be "acceptable". African American hair is designed different from many other hair types in that it is purposely (through adaptations) built for whisking away heat. The hair in general will always be puffed out when grown out, giving an even bigger disadvantage in this archaic view of hair "appropriateness".

Braids are beautiful if done well, and I've hardly ever seen a bad braid. If your fro is fucked up looking, that's just bad upkeep.

 

[Skyzard]

Some people (quite a lot) are uncomfortable with different things or reminders that people are parts of different groups.

That's an uphill battle that takes non-hostile efforts from both parties if they're interested in a united multicultural society, which not everyone always wants. Sometimes they find excuses to get their way which puts a smaller group in an unfair position. Sometimes things are unbalanced naturally.

I wonder if it's ever been taken to court - like tried for unfair dismissal after changing to a more natural hairstyle that was reasonably maintained.

 

[Oppo]

yeah, box braid girl (not to drag her in again) wouldn't be getting a job any faster than anyone else. they'd figure (we're she working age) she likes to party a little too hard, or something. at a corporate gig anyways. but that just speaks to the unfair negative connotation associated with that hairstyle.

 

[Yaphett Kotto]

Huge props for explaining the situation, AE. You pretty much hit all the points well and I can't do much but to agree as there is really not much to add to what is already there. Its also because I share nearly the exact same perspective as you when it comes to race in America and the subjects within it.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Agreed on most points. Regarding black female hair, though, if the pressure wasn't there from black males for their hair to look a certain way, things would change quickly.

black males are 100% of HR departments now?

 

[-Ryn]

Just wanted to say that's a solid post OP.
You covered a lot of points very well.

I think that one big issue white people take with cultural appropriation is that they don't see races as having their own cultures. White people tend to not be very conscious of their own race, and if you ask them to describe "white culture", they'll be confused.

Because of this, a lot of white people associate hip hop, box braids, jazz, or certain dances with black people without believing them to be "owned" by black people, just as they wouldn't consider Volvos or classical music to be "owned" by white people.

The final post in the other thread basically furthers my point about how many white people aren't race-conscious. The other thread is locked, so I'll post this here.

The thing so many white people (including yourself, assuming you are white) don't realize is that culture and race are very closely tied. Race is not just skin color or ancestry, because race is a socially-constructed idea that associates culture, stereotypes, and history with visual appearance.

While you could argue that the entire "black race" (meaning everybody of African descent who has dark skin) has no specific culture, this specific context is talking about African American culture, which absolutely has a very rich culture and a long history of that culture being denied or commodified.

Cultural bias is the root of pretty much all racism. It's the reason why many white racists will love their Indian neighbors while distrusting black families that move in.

You've brought up a good point that I haven't really thought about (at least not in that way) before. I guess my question is; is it bad to be blind to race?

I've always made a point to ignore race.
Sure there are stereotypes but I've always treated those as jokes (as I've assumed everyone else was supposed to). I don't look at black culture and think they came to be that way because they are black or that he/she is black therefore they are x, y, and z. I don't think any race or group is inherently more likely to be one thing or another. It's the enviornment around them that might influence how they act, grow, or learn. Not their skin.

I apologize if this isn't making much sense. Its simple in my head but hard to put into words. There's a lot of different aspects to it and... blegh.

Basically, I see a person. I'm a person. Therefore I treat them like a person. If they use an idea from a certain culture I don't care and vice versa. That's just my reasoning though. I think everybody should be treated equally (as I know you guys do) and that's how I go about it. Am I misguided?

 

[krazen]

yeah, box braid girl (not to drag her in again) wouldn't be getting a job any faster than anyone else. they'd figure (we're she working age) she likes to party a little too hard, or something. at a corporate gig anyways. but that just speaks to the unfair negative connotation associated with that hairstyle.

But the irony is that over time she will.

Basically one of the problems is that by her rocking it it 'validates' the hairstyle and down the line eventually it becomes commonplace and acceptable except when worn back those that started it.

 

[The Faceless Master]

yeah, box braid girl (not to drag her in again) wouldn't be getting a job any faster than anyone else. they'd figure (we're she working age) she likes to party a little too hard, or something. at a corporate gig anyways. but that just speaks to the unfair negative connotation associated with that hairstyle.

breh, i would be infinity dollars against that outcome.

 

[Necroscope]

Thanks Angelus, the OP is a very articulated argument. I can totally empathize where you are coming from up to the point of cultural appropriation.

First of all, I am an Asian and I wasn't born and raise in NA. My family move to NA when I was in junior high school. I have spent more time in my life living in NA than where I was born. For the past 8 years, I am living in California.

My gut reaction of seeing a white girl with a well done box braid is that she looks different than most of her friends because it is just different than the norm. Nothing racial would come to my mind. It is the same effect of seeing a black man doing really good Wing Chun at a Chinese martial art school or a black lady singing a Chinese song well. Would I be offend in any of this? No. I am sure you can substitute the above Chinese activities with say Japanese or Korean, it wouldn't change how other would perceive such activities.

So my question is this, does black culture appropriation only apply when you are white?