SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion

Yes, I got the achieve on my first run. You definitely have to explore all the side-content.

That's pretty impressive.

I got like 65-70 and I explored a lot!

I'm gonna do Voxophones and Sightseer on my 1999 playthrough.

I can't wait to playthrough again hearing all of the Voxophone and random dialogue and just having an even greater understanding than I do now.
 
That's pretty impressive.

I got like 65-70 and I explored a lot!

I'm gonna do Voxophones and Sightseer on my 1999 playthrough.

I was off by about 5 or 6 on the Sightseeing achievement, though. I think the audiologs are much easier because they're generally in the same areas you're searching for supplies and such.
 
yup

Songbird is there just because he's needed and if anything he's designed the way he is to show the whole Rapture and Columbia are the same thing

always a man always a city always a big-ass genetically modified monster protecting a gurl

I read you post in a very meta like way then said out loud. M.. Metal Gear?!?! Peeps can say what they want about MGS2 but when that penny dropped about what had just happened you could not applaud Kojima.
 
I don't think Lutece (male) meant we have done this (rowing) thousands of times. Remember, in the string theory everything is happening at the same time. I believe he is actually looking - somehow- in real time and seeing that Booker never rows.



String theory (as I understand it, and Im kinda dumb) goes like this:

))))_____
__/
)))\______ <---ignore the )))), i needed them for formatting.

Not:

______ (loop) _______ (loop)



People keep talking about loops but I don't know that they exist in this story. I think the story teller (in this sense, the camera) loops as it shows you things over again, and I think there is time travel happening... but not genuine loops.


I, of course, could be wrong.
 
I was off by about 5 or 6 on the Sightseeing achievement, though. I think the audiologs are much easier because they're generally in the same areas you're searching for supplies and such.

did you get the extra lockpicks with the flash minigame?

because it sure seemed like there wasnt enough to pick those first couple doors
 
Completed the game yesterday on my second play through now and its so well written you can see all the hints Levine drops throughout the game so much more clearly on the second play through.

I need to learn what Vigor/outfit combos work best against which enemies though. Playing on hard trying to gear up for my 1999 play through and the specials are really difficult had a time with a handyman right before Elizabeth kills Viceroy.
 
I think I got about 68-70 Voxophones in total. Gave up on the Telescopes and kinectoscopes after I knew I missed one. Fucking collectables. By the end I had around 25-30 lockpicks left that I obviously could have used somewhere and I think I was missing around 5 Infusions. Still better than using a camera for 'research'.
 
I didn't fully get songbird. I kind of missing the stuff that fink created song bird, I saw the blue prints but still didn't understand the creature fully or what it was.

How did Elizabeth have powers? Like I get that Comstock Booker couldn't have a child so he stole his own child but why and how did Elizabeth have powers? If she was born with powers how did they even find out about them to steal?

How did Comstock know Booker was coming? How did they make shifts without Elizabeth?

This games overall message seemed to be kind of Anti Religion. Some of the messages off the top of my head like even though America was founded on older religions it has become something more, aka not just all white or straight people, so we can't keep old prejudices. Also we must take responsibility for our own sins (or mistakes) not use religion to forgive ourselves. AKA we control our own unique timeline though at any moment there can be many instances that change the direction we go we only live the one (unless u can open up shifts).

Also dat Bioshock 1 scene!! I was so happy to see that. Man graphics have changed, sad, I want a remake of Bio 1 with Bio infinite's art style.
 
People keep talking about loops but I don't know that they exist in this story. I think the story teller (in this sense, the camera) loops as it shows you things over again, and I think there is time travel happening... but not genuine loops.

I, of course, could be wrong.

the loop is not in the sense that once this ends it all begins again, it's a loop in the sense that no matter the circumstance everything happens in the way it already happened. Every Booker tries to go through the tear and get Elizabeth but everytime (or not, depending on wether you think the loop is broken or it was actually always like this) he is killed by the Songbird.

This is not a loop in the common sense that it might not be the same Booker going through this stuff over and over again (unless all Bookers share the same conciousness and thus there's only one of them), but in the sense that people outside of it (the lutece, Elizabeth) can already see it happening over and over, even if it's not always the same universe/same Booker. Everything that happens in the game is also happening/has happened in another place. It's not one single loop of the same universe but rather infinite universes that you can go to in any point in time and the same shit would happen again.


im gonna go ly down now
 
after an hour of discussing it here and thinking about it, the ending isn't so bad. it's interesting and clever, but the presentation and dialogue for it wasn't my cup of tea. i have a few unanswered questions but it's no biggie.
 
Ok, now that we know the story and have played the game, any ideas on how the end could have played out differently and offended that religious Irrational staffer that Ken was talking about?
 
Besides missing the stuff that fink created song bird, I saw the blue prints but still didn't understand the creature fully or what it was.

How did Elizabeth how powers? Like I get that Comstock Booker couldn't have a child so he stole his own child but why and how did Elizabeth have powers? If she was born with powers how did they even find out about them to steal?

How did Comstock know Booker was coming? How did they make shifts without Elizabeth?

This games overall message seemed to be kind of Anti Religion. Some of the messages off the top of my head like even though America was founded on older religions it has become something more, aka not just all white or straight people so we can't keep old prejudices. Also we must take responsibility for our own sins (or mistakes) not use religion to forgive ourselves. AKA we control our own unique timeline though at any moment there can be many instances that change the direction we go we only live the one (unless u can open up shifts).

Also dat Bioshock 1 scene!! I was so happy to see that. Man graphics have changed sad I want a remake of Bio 1 with Bio infinites art style.

It is surmised that Elizabeth gained the ability to tear when she was caught in between two worlds with her pinky being severed.

Comstock knew Booker was coming because he could see the future through tears.
 
did you get the extra lockpicks with the flash minigame?

because it sure seemed like there wasnt enough to pick those first couple doors

Yeah, I did. I THINK there are enough lockpicks in every backtrackable area to get everything, and I was constantly hitting the 30 pick limit by 1/2 way through the game, but obviously I can't be sure.
 
I'm not sure, but it's probably elderly Elizabeth pulling that Booker DeWitt into her reality. She intervenes and gives Booker's Elizabeth the tools necessary to stop the Songbird from killing Booker (Elizabeth suggests that every single time the Songbird manages to kill Booker).

I'm trying to remember what she said, specially, in regards to Songbird killing Booker.
 
I wondered if Fink's audiolog about learning how the make man/machine hybrids from a tear and "that the process couldn't be reversed" was him actually seeing Rapture/Big Daddies, pretty cool callback to Bioshock 1 if true.

Also enjoyed the explanation that Comstock sabotaged the Luteces machine hence why they are "scattered" and always popping up randomly in different dimensions and time-periods.
 
Besides missing the stuff that fink created song bird, I saw the blue prints but still didn't understand the creature fully or what it was.

How did Elizabeth how powers? Like I get that Comstock Booker couldn't have a child so he stole his own child but why and how did Elizabeth have powers? If she was born with powers how did they even find out about them to steal?

How did Comstock know Booker was coming? How did they make shifts without Elizabeth?

This games overall message seemed to be kind of Anti Religion. Some of the messages off the top of my head like even though America was founded on older religions it has become something more, aka not just all white or straight people so we can't keep old prejudices. Also we must take responsibility for our own sins (or mistakes) not use religion to forgive ourselves. AKA we control our own unique timeline though at any moment there can be many instances that change the direction we go we only live the one (unless u can open up shifts).

Also dat Bioshock 1 scene!! I was so happy to see that. Man graphics have changed sad I want a remake of Bio 1 with Bio infinites art style.



Elizabeth got powers because of her finger getting cut off. It made her exist in two dimensions at once - thus giving her the power to create rifts.


My understanding of comstock's powers aren't quite as solid (there may be audio logs that flesh it out but I missed them). My general feeling is that he didn't have powers at all, but he was just looking into rifts using the power of his trapped daughter in the siphon. He used those visions for his "prophecies"
 
Can anyone recommend a good book that explores these sort of quantum theories? Nothing too textbooky, but not like fiction.

There's a few good articles on Dark Matter/Energy kicking around that I was reading around the time of the first Mass Effect that explores a lot of themes Lutece was mentioning in her voxophone messages. There's also a doomsday theory called the Big Rip which has some similarities and Einstein's Gravitational Lens theory (was what P.K. Dick used in Paycheck) has a few things as well. Jumping off points really. I'm sure some guys here can give you some decent books to read,
 
I originally posted the following inquiry in the "Infinite gameplay doesn't live up to what was shown" thread, but have now edited it out because it was potentially spoilerish. My comment was about the image of young Comstock that can be seen in Infinite's 2011 E3 gameplay demo video. From this video it seems like the narrative at one point was not about Comstock being Booker.
 
Besides missing the stuff that fink created song bird, I saw the blue prints but still didn't understand the creature fully or what it was.

How did Elizabeth how powers? Like I get that Comstock Booker couldn't have a child so he stole his own child but why and how did Elizabeth have powers? If she was born with powers how did they even find out about them to steal?

Presumably Elizabeth gets her Tear powers from being bodily harmed by a tear herself.

An early audio diary in the viewing chambers of Monument Island reveals that Rosalind Lutece believes that her powers come from her pinky finger being severed and thus her existence being "stretched" between two dimensions.

However, I would theorize that it's not because she left behind a body part, but because the body part was severed directly by a Tear.

If it's enough to just leave behind parts of your anatomy to develop Tear powers, you'd think being beaten and shot occasionally would mean Booker's left pieces of himself all over the multiverse, but he never develops any strange abilities. Besides, if a baby-sized pinky finger counts, what about all the dead skin we're constantly shedding? What about strands of hair? What would the universe do if you walked into another universe, used the bathroom, then went back to your original?

Also, if it had to do specifically with the pinky, I'd think that Elizabeth would only have the power to open Tears to her original universe, or, unforeseen complications, whatever universe her pinky decides to end up in. Therefore, i think it has less to do with the body part left behind in one specific universe, and more to do with the physical interaction with a dissipating spatial-temporal displacement - this would also line up with the way the Letuce's ended up being "everywhere at once."

Here's something to think about. If Rosalind's original hypothesis is correct, and Elizabeth's abilities come from her pinky finger existing in a different universe, rather than from being "intersected" by a Tear, if Elizabeth were to, by chance, open a tear into her original universe, enter the Tear, and then close it, would she suddenly lose all of her Tear-related powers?
 
what are they?

the significance of rapture, some are suggesting that its another loop of the same story but i cant buy that. i prefer to just think of it a delightful fan service.

i'd also like to know what became of 17 year old elizabeth after she drowned booker.

i think there's some other things that are slipping my mind.
 
Guys explain me something...

I didn't get it on the end when he says he was comstock and booker

i didn't get it can someone explain to me?
There are constants (there is always a lighthouse in each universe, there is always a man, there is always a baptism) and there are variables (what the lighthouse leads to, who the man journeying to and creating the lighthouse is, if Booker chooses to be baptised or not). In every universe, there is a baptism (assuming Booker isn't dead before then I imagine) and Booker makes a choice. If Booker chooses to be baptised he takes on the name Comstock, and he eventually meets the Luteces. Booker founds Columbia (I imagine that because he was a gambler that he used tears to become rich and then because everybody pays 50% of their income in Columbia to Booker he was able to sustain it [or alternatively that was the source]) and continue to use the tears to see the future (although as far as I'm aware, he doesn't see the entire future). He gains cancer due to exposure from the tears and becomes sterile.

Now we revert back to the baptism. If Booker does not become baptised he is unable to forgive himself and becomes an alcoholic and a gambler, getting himself into significant debt. Sometime within this timeframe he has a child named Anna. To absolve him of his debt he agrees to sell his child to the Luteces. He immediately regrets this and tries to reclaim Anna but is unable to do so, Anna being brought successfully into Columbia.

Back to Comstock, Comstock saw that Columbia would only succeed if his child would sit the throne. After being rendered sterile he was unable to naturally acquire his child and thus resorted to getting his child from another universe. After successfully obtaining Anna/Elizabeth he murders his wife who believes he had an affair with the female Lutece (which, according to a Voxaphone, he asked for but was declined) because she could not promise him silence about Elizabeth's origins, only forgiveness. He then sought to murder the Luteces but his efforts failed and they got trapped within the timeline.

At this point, the Luteces met Booker once more (I believe in the female Lutece's desire to try and reset events as they would have been without their interference; this belief stemming from a Voxaphone) to give him the chance to travel to Columbia and get back Anna. After they brought him to Comstock's universe he created his own memories where he had to "bring us the girl and wipe away the debt". Therefore there is two Booker's in one universe (although, if you want to be technical, there is two Booker's in an infinite amount of universes).

Immediately after, and because of the baptism, in half of the infinite set of universes, in which Booker exists, he is Comstock, choosing to be baptised. In the other half, he is Booker.

the significance of rapture, some are suggesting that its another loop of the same story but i cant buy that. i prefer to just think of it a delightful fan service.
It is, kind of. As Elizabeth says, there are constants and variable. In every universe there is always a lighthouse and a man. It isn't necessarily a loop of the story told in Bioshock Infinite though. So for example, in the set of universes in which Columbia exists, Rapture does not/will not exist and vice versa. Likewise in universes where neither Rapture or Columbia exist, there is another lighthouse with another man journeying to it (or creating it, it's never specified whether the man is the creator or the traveller).

Edit: Although as you say, it's probably there just for fan service but it also helps justify having "Bioshock" in the title.
 
the significance of rapture, some are suggesting that its another loop of the same story but i cant buy that. i prefer to just think of it a delightful fan service.

Not of the same story, nor a loop. It's just a place in an alternate reality. It was fan service, like you say, and a way to connect the two games.

Basically, these games won't take place in the same reality, but rather parallel ones. Which also works as some sort of foreshadowing in terms of future Bioshock games should they be made, it's something Ken Levine had hinted at before.
 
Columbia University's Brian Greene has an approachable book that covers Quantum Mechanics and Relativity quite well. Amazon link

There's a few good articles on Dark Matter/Energy kicking around that I was reading around the time of the first Mass Effect that explores a lot of themes Lutece was mentioning in her voxophone messages. There's also a doomsday theory called the Big Rip which has some similarities and Einstein's Gravitational Lens theory (was what P.K. Dick used in Paycheck) has a few things as well. Jumping off points really. I'm sure some guys here can give you some decent books to read,

Thank you both!
 
the significance of rapture, some are suggesting that its another loop of the same story but i cant buy that. i prefer to just think of it a delightful fan service.

i'd also like to know what became of 17 year old elizabeth after she drowned booker.

i think there's some other things that are slipping my mind.

They all winked out of existence since she drowned Booker before the baptism.

If Booker doesn't exist then he can't refuse the baptism and go on to conceive Elizibeth, or he can't go through with the Baptism and go on to create Columbia.
 
What is the connection with Rapture? I didn't get it...

I saw them going to Rapture and didn't understand what is the connection,,,
 
Very early in the game you see a Rosalina statue, which starts out being of Robert, and then morphs into the female version. Is there any logical explanation for this? Booker didn't enter a tear and none where around the statue.
 
What is 'the twist' in the game?

P.S. no need to use spoiler tags if it says 'spoilers' in the thread title.

Comstock is Booker from a different parallel universe. The Comstock version of Booker is sterile, so he kidnaps *our* Booker's daughter through time and space and raises her as "Elizabeth," his own daughter.

The subtitle "Infinite" refers to the countless parallel universes that exist in the Bioshock world.
 
the significance of rapture, some are suggesting that its another loop of the same story but i cant buy that. i prefer to just think of it a delightful fan service.

why dont you buy it?

when it comes to it, it is the same story. It hits all very similar bits. This game is almost a reboot of Bioshock beause it's Bioshock in another universe. It is implied in the game more clearly than anything else dude.

It's not a loop of the same story as much as the doors are meant to represent that the same kind of story gets told everywhere. You could basically have fucking random.. I dont know, Bioshock with a city inside a huge.. tree or something. And it would have a leader, a city, a big-daddy like creature, etc etc. That's the whole thing.

i'd also like to know what became of 17 year old elizabeth after she drowned booker.

that's not an unanswered question, that's how the game ends. You dont even know if she keeps living or even if the universe persists after that.
 
They all winked out of existence since she drowned Booker before the baptism.

If Booker doesn't exist then he can't refuse the baptism and go on to conceive Elizibeth, or he can't go through with the Baptism and go on to create Columbia.

there seemed to be one elizibeth remaining though, if she winked out of existence too then it would be all good.
 
One thing I'm not so sure about.

When Liz tells Booker to kill her if she was to be captured back, she said like it was god awful and worse than death. What was she scared of? I didn't get any sense that the Songbird would do any harm to her. That leaves the experiment.

However, when Booker try to rescue her in Comstock's house, Booker hear her screaming and defying order because she believes Booker will come to get her. This shows that the event in the tear was happening in the universe that Booker couldn't come to get her, and also imply that it happen after she met Booker. Also, if we are thinking back to the moment where Booker first met her in the tower, she was so lively and innocent. She doesn't even know why those people were watching her through the glass for. Did anyone add these up already?
 
there seemed to be one elizibeth remaining though, if she winked out of existence too then it would be all good.

every elizabeth winked out of existence as the piano notes hit. The last piano note hits the moment the screen goes black. What makes you think she remained? she was just the last to go

even the timing of them disappearing suggest that she'd disappear as well

a game ending in a more open way can't be an unanswered question/plothole kinda thing dude, it's just how the game handles the story.
 
there seemed to be one elizibeth remaining though, if she winked out of existence too then it would be all good.

When each Elizabeth disappears, you can hear the ding sound with it. After the screen turn dark you can hear the last ding which should imply that the last Elizabeth is gone as well.
 
One thing I'm not so sure about.

When Liz tells Booker to kill her if she was to be captured back, she said like it was god awful and worse than death. What was she scared of? I didn't get any sense that the Songbird would do any harm to her. That leaves the experiment.

However, when Booker try to rescue her in Comstock's house, Booker hear her screaming and defying order because she believes Booker will come to get her. This shows that the event in the tear was happening in the universe that Booker couldn't come to get her, and also imply that it happen after she met Booker. Also, if we are thinking back to the moment where Booker first met her in the tower, she was so lively and innocent. She doesn't even know why those people were watching her through the glass for. Did anyone add these up already?

I think she was saying that, now that she'd seen the world outside the tower, there was no way that she could go back to being locked up in there.

Before, she apparently wasn't even all that aware that she was being held captive - which is weird to me. What the hell were they telling Elizabeth that she had access to all these books about the world but she never wondered why she wasn't allowed to leave the little apartment she'd been put in.

Plus, with her Tear powers, she could have left anytime she wanted to. Hell, she could have stepped through and gone to Paris right before we met her and there would have been nothing we could have done about it. But, she mentions around the way back from the Hall of Heroes that she "always felt like coming back" and even she only has guesses as to why that was. ("Family?")
 
every elizabeth winked out of existence as the piano notes hit. The last piano note hits the moment the screen goes black. What makes you think she remained? she was just the last to go

even the timing of them disappearing suggest that she'd disappear as well

a game ending in a more open way can't be an unanswered question/plothole kinda thing dude, it's just how the game handles the story.

oh, well done.
 
One thing I'm not so sure about.

When Liz tells Booker to kill her if she was to be captured back, she said like it was god awful and worse than death. What was she scared of? I didn't get any sense that the Songbird would do any harm to her. That leaves the experiment.

However, when Booker try to rescue her in Comstock's house, Booker hear her screaming and defying order because she believes Booker will come to get her. This shows that the event in the tear was happening in the universe that Booker couldn't come to get her, and also imply that it happen after she met Booker. Also, if we are thinking back to the moment where Booker first met her in the tower, she was so lively and innocent. She doesn't even know why those people were watching her through the glass for. Did anyone add these up already?

as anyone else Liz gains memories from her other selves and such once she tears through to another universe. Everyone becomes more aware of the grand scheme of things here because of that.
 
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