[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #2) - One Thumb Up

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The Han and Leia reunited scene highlighted a lot of what I dislike with the writing in this film, and a lot of modern Disney branded films in general, mainly the necessity to painfully spell out entire thematic developments through dialogue rather than let them be told through the actors expressions and subtlety of the narrative.

The moment that really stood out was when Han says to Leia "I saw him". I felt that line was enough, along with the characters expression, to sell the scene. I really liked it, because we already know at that point Kylo is their son. And I think that simple little line, coupled with a silent reaction, helps convey emotion and expression without resorting to spelling it out. But no, immediately after Han and Leia go into a back-and-forth about their son, their relationship, their history, yadda yadda.

I just feel most of the time this shit isn't needed. It's fan-pedia tear of padding, explaining the ins and outs just for the sake of giving people web pages to fill out. Instead of subtly implying that shit went down between the two of them, the tragedy of their son, and maybe exploring the ideas later, we get unnecessary exposition of the entire ordeal.

Leaving some imagination up to the audience works wonders.
 
He's a war hero, Obi-wan sounds too fancy, he liked the name Ben and went by it, he saved their life, they like the name Ben, they name their son Ben.

If you can name your son Charlie because you like the name for less meaningful reasons, you can name your son Ben for more.

Obi-wan sounds too fancy? Wha....

Look, she could have named her kid Fugakachubasticks if she wanted to with the justification 'she just liked it'. But from a story telling perspective, these things are done for specific reasons generally. Luke isn't named "Skywalker" by accident, nor is the "I go my own way" Han SOLO in ANH. Names are generally chosen for specific reasons by the storytellers. In this case, Ben was used as fanservice and nothing else, but that brings up certain associations with the characters within the story you're writing, so there should be an in universe reason, which we can speculate on. The reason we're speculating so hard on it, saying it's because he was a war hero when we have no reason to suspect that Leia would want to honor the people that died vs starting a new beginning with a unique name is because we have no real reason we can reliably infer based on her character.

I don't have any huge objection to the name Ben. It's not a plot hole or an impossibility. Hell, maybe she was just "Hey, Luke, why don't you name my kid because why not" and he named him Ben. It's just one of the more pointless pieces of fanservice that TFA offered us as far as I'm concerned, and that's hardly any kind of breaking point for me.
 
I dont know what a T-16 skyhooper is (and i shouldnt know sbout it when i, snd you saw the film back then) and i have seen the trilogy more than 10 times. I am ofcourse not the huge EU fan, and certainly when You see for the first time ANH, you clearly see Luke as a talented youngster held back by his ucnle and aunt, who wants to escape the life of a farmer and join the resistance.

The film must be judged based on that concept, not what has been revealed/added through the EU.

Now if you really think that Luke being familiarized so quickly with X Wings and being thrown into combat, when in the rest of the film he was presented as a novice in pretty much anything to do with combat (be it blasters, tactics, even discipline) i pass. I for one disagree and never wont try to justify this that way.

All in all i did not mind Rey's piloting skills. Now the Jedi stuff is way too obvioud that was there for a reason to be explained in VIII or IX. If not then yeah it will be ugly.

Again, you seem to be ignoring the fact that everyone and their mother in ANH states that Luke is a crack pilot, including trained fighter pilots. No one ever said he was great with a blaster or lightsaber. As you said, the film must be judged on its own and nothing in the film sets up Rey as a pilot, let alone an amazing one.

Of course it is.

I just don't see even a slight problem that he is wearing a jacket simply reminiscent of the one he used to wear from the trilogy and his smuggling days.

I think people are misunderstanding my initial point, I said the majority of the movie is fan service which you just have to accept thus calling out Kylo being named "Ben" is silly when you have a 70 year old man returning to the same reckless job he had in his youth wearing a jacket similar to one he wore 40 years ago in a ship that looks and operates exactly the same as it did back then as well.
 
The Han and Leia reunited scene highlighted a lot of what I dislike with the writing in this film, and a lot of modern Disney branded films in general, mainly the necessity to painfully spell out entire thematic developments through dialogue rather than let them be told through the actors expressions and subtlety of the narrative.

The moment that really stood out was when Han says to Leia "I saw him". I felt that line was enough, along with the characters expression, to sell the scene. I really liked it, because we already know at that point Kylo is their son. And I think that simple little line, coupled with a silent reaction, helps convey emotion and expression without resorting to spelling it out. But no, immediately after Han and Leia go into a back-and-forth about their son, their relationship, their history, yadda yadda.

I just feel most of the time this shit isn't needed. It's fan-pedia tear of padding, explaining the ins and outs just for the sake of giving people web pages to fill out. Instead of subtly implying that shit went down between the two of them, the tragedy of their son, and maybe exploring the ideas later, we get unnecessary exposition of the entire ordeal.

Leaving some imagination up to the audience works wonders.

In comparison, did you like the scene with Luke and Rey?
 
Rey's parentage and history will obviously be explored in the series. It was an obvious set up. Her early character has an unspoken past and her personality fixates on the rock of waiting for a "family" to return, one she doesn't seem to enjoy thinking about. Her entire motivation to continue forward is to let go of that. But the flashback sequence implies there's more to it, likely that Luke is either her parent (though not necessarily) and more likely that he was the one who took her to Jakku and left her there. I wouldn't be surprised if Luke did some Jedi mind erasing shit, as this force power has now been established, to wipe her memory of the Jedi purge and her training to keep her safe from Kylo and co hunting her down. To bury the Jedi, essentially, as she could very well be the only surviving child. Her arc will probably involve coming to terms with her past, Luke coming to terms with it to, and together moving forward into acceptance of destiny and all that shtick.

In comparison, did you like the scene with Luke and Rey?

I liked it as a nice end to the first movie and bait for the next one, but I thought cinematically it was cut pretty badly. Mainly it went on way too long. Like...weirdly long. Rey hikes up, sees Luke, cut to Rey, cut back to Luke turning around, Luke reveals himself...and it should have ended here. The big reveal, roll credits. Instead it cut back to Rey again for a reaction. Then back to Luke again for a reaction. She pulls out the saber or whatever. Holds it out. They stand there. Wide panning shot circles around the two. Finally roll credits.

Good scene. I personally would have trimmed it down to the first Luke-pulls-off-hood reveal. The rest just seemed like bad editing.
 
The Han and Leia reunited scene highlighted a lot of what I dislike with the writing in this film, and a lot of modern Disney branded films in general, mainly the necessity to painfully spell out entire thematic developments through dialogue rather than let them be told through the actors expressions and subtlety of the narrative.

The moment that really stood out was when Han says to Leia "I saw him". I felt that line was enough, along with the characters expression, to sell the scene. I really liked it, because we already know at that point Kylo is their son. And I think that simple little line, coupled with a silent reaction, helps convey emotion and expression without resorting to spelling it out. But no, immediately after Han and Leia go into a back-and-forth about their son, their relationship, their history, yadda yadda.

I just feel most of the time this shit isn't needed. It's fan-pedia tear of padding, explaining the ins and outs just for the sake of giving people web pages to fill out. Instead of subtly implying that shit went down between the two of them, the tragedy of their son, and maybe exploring the ideas later, we get unnecessary exposition of the entire ordeal.

Leaving some imagination up to the audience works wonders.
Totally agree, but we're not going to see that at all.

Star Wars is going in for the big crowds, scenes with subtlety don't matter, it has to be said and explained. Even people in this thread wish every string and point of the movie included an exposition dump, like on why Han is wearing a goddamn jacket.

At least it isn't like the prequels where we are told things that completely clash against what we are seeing.
I think people are misunderstanding my initial point, I said the majority of the movie is fan service which you just have to accept thus calling out Kylo being named "Ben" is silly when you have a 70 year old man returning to the same reckless job he had in his youth wearing a jacket similar to one he wore 40 years ago in a ship that looks and operates exactly the same as it did back then as well.
It does operate largely off of fan service and story beats similar to the OT, yeah.

But I think accepting that Han goes back to smuggling after his son goes to the First Order or that he wears similar clothes as he did when he used to be a smuggler and in his glory days isn't simply due to fan-service. It's pretty reasonable.

The Ben thing was a bit ridiculous, though I'm fine with it.
 
We know that the Resistance is organization tolerated by the New Republic
Maybe they have a small budget, that's why there is only X-Wings

I think we'll see a part of the New Republic's fleet with much diversity with new model of A-Wing/B-Wing/Y-Wing and others stuff

I hope that all the Republic's fleet haven't been destroyed by the Starkiller base !
 
Nostalgia? I wasn't even born until 13 years after the movie came out, I saw ANH after I saw the prequels, the first time I saw ANH was like in 2010. Nostalgia my ass lol But what's you point? You are coming across as "it doesn't make sense because I don't find it believable." This is the world where Anakin was able to build a racing ship and pilot it at the age of 10 while living in a slave world.

If the movie foreshadows Luke piloting an X wing by repeatedly mentioning that he is a good pilot then it is to be taken as such.

You are pretty much saying the exact thing i am. That it is because the movie says it is, not because it makes sense.

So in similar manner Rey is a talented pilot because the movie "says" so. Just because it misses that line that says to your face "i am a great pilot", that doesnt make it any worse, or better, depending how you see it.

I did not have a problem with Luke being an ace pilot when his background wasnt convincing enough on that front and similarly i dont have an issue with Rey. Jedi stuff is an issue and i am waiting for an explanation though.
 
I liked it as a nice end to the first movie and bait for the next one, but I thought cinematically it was cut pretty badly. Mainly it went on way too long. Like...weirdly long. Rey hikes up, sees Luke, cut to Rey, cut back to Luke turning around, Luke reveals himself...and it should have ended here. The big reveal, roll credits. Instead it cut back to Rey again for a reaction. Then back to Luke again for a reaction. She pulls out the saber or whatever. Holds it out. They stand there. Wide panning shot circles around the two. Finally roll credits.

Good scene. I personally would have trimmed it down to the first Luke-pulls-off-hood reveal. The rest just seemed like bad editing.
yep, it went on for too long, awkwardly long.

Still was hyped as fuck though.
 
I liked it as a nice end to the first movie and bait for the next one, but I thought cinematically it was cut pretty badly. Mainly it went on way too long. Like...weirdly long. Rey hikes up, sees Luke, cut to Rey, cut back to Luke turning around, Luke reveals himself...and it should have ended here. The big reveal, roll credits. Instead it cut back to Rey again for a reaction. Then back to Luke again for a reaction. She pulls out the saber or whatever. Holds it out. They stand there. Wide panning shot circles around the two. Finally roll credits.

Good scene. I personally would have trimmed it down to the first Luke-pulls-off-hood reveal. The rest just seemed like bad editing.

I agree that it went on way too long. And for me, the silence and back-and-forth shots got distractingly goofy.
The Han and Leia moment didn't really bother me both times I saw it, but I'll check it out again.
 
It does operate largely off of fan service and story beats similar to the OT, yeah.

But I think accepting that Han goes back to smuggling after his son goes to the First Order or that he wears similar clothes as he did when he used to be a smuggler and in his glory days isn't simply due to fan-service. It's pretty reasonable.

The Ben thing was a bit ridiculous, though I'm fine with it.

C'mon man, no.

He's wearing a similar jacket and back to being a wry smuggler because that's what we all remember Han from in the OT thus the movie had to make sure he looked and acted exactly as he did when we last saw him decades ago. Honestly, a guy whose a god damn famous legend in the galaxy is not going to be able to operate effectively as a smuggler for long. Like, he couldn't do any other job with his stature in the galaxy?

He's a smuggler because we remembered him as a smuggler and I'm fine with it for the most part. Han Solo stuff is the least offensive fan service in the movie.
 
Again, you seem to be ignoring the fact that everyone and their mother in ANH states that Luke is a crack pilot, including trained fighter pilots. No one ever said he was great with a blaster or lightsaber. As you said, the film must be judged on its own and nothing in the film sets up Rey as a pilot, let alone an amazing one.



I think people are misunderstanding my initial point, I said the majority of the movie is fan service which you just have to accept thus calling out Kylo being named "Ben" is silly when you have a 70 year old man returning to the same reckless job he had in his youth wearing a jacket similar to one he wore 40 years ago in a ship that looks and operates exactly the same as it did back then as well.

So, you are missing the line where they say she is a great pilot then? That would validate the plothole? That would simply make it believable?

Sorry i disagree. I respect your opinion but i disagree. To me, the evidence isnt just a line. If the character doesnt convince me through his actions and interactions regarding his skills and background, i wont hold to a line, to make the whole thing believable.

He got into the X Wing extremely fast and even if he was that amazkng , ffs he should have a briefing or 2 as well as a test run. But we didnt see that and its a good thing we didnt because that would ruin the whole pacing of the movie.

Rey didnt have an opportunity to share convincgly with us her piloting skills, without making it look like she was saying the line to the audience and not the characters.

We know she knows ships from the incide out and when shit hit the fan she told Finn that they need a ship now. So obviously by suggesting that, she knows how to pilot ships or has done so before. Now her extremely fast familirization with MF is ofcourse convienient and odd, but that is equivalent to Luke and X Wing for me.

Its a moot point to find fault here imo in regards to TFA.
 
Obi-wan sounds too fancy? Wha....

Look, she could have named her kid Fugakachubasticks if she wanted to with the justification 'she just liked it'. But from a story telling perspective, these things are done for specific reasons generally. Luke isn't named "Skywalker" by accident, nor is the "I go my own way" Han SOLO in ANH. Names are generally chosen for specific reasons by the storytellers. In this case, Ben was used as fanservice and nothing else, but that brings up certain associations with the characters within the story you're writing, so there should be an in universe reason, which we can speculate on. The reason we're speculating so hard on it, saying it's because he was a war hero when we have no reason to suspect that Leia would want to honor the people that died vs starting a new beginning with a unique name is because we have no real reason we can reliably infer based on her character.

I don't have any huge objection to the name Ben. It's not a plot hole or an impossibility. Hell, maybe she was just "Hey, Luke, why don't you name my kid because why not" and he named him Ben. It's just one of the more pointless pieces of fanservice that TFA offered us as far as I'm concerned, and that's hardly any kind of breaking point for me.
It's the least objectionable fan service in there. It makes perfect sense for characters to choose to name their son a meaningful name.

Han shooting the bow for the first time in 50 years less so.
 
Audio recoding of JJ talking at a WGA screening about the Obi-Wan lines.

The 'Rey' part is indeed Sir Alec Guinness (comes from the line: He betrayed and murdered your father.) 'These are your first steps' is said by Ewan Mcgregor.

Skip to around 27m for JJ to start talking about the Obi-Wan lines.
So interesting! That's such an intriguing touch. I love that attention to detail and the connection it provides to the past of Star Wars.

Also, they've gotta get an Obi-Wan standalone off the ground soon. Ewan would be the perfect age to play him between ROTS and ANH.

You know, the clapping thread reminded me.

All the people in my theater clapped for everyone EXCEPT C3PO.
My theater flipped out for 3PO, they loved him. I thought he was wonderful in the movie, Anthony Daniels always delivers. It definitely felt like the same old 3PO.
 
I don't really get what's so wrong with fan service. Star Wars and Indiana Jones have always had call backs to previous films in their respective series. It's fun, and it's often funny.
 
It's the least objectionable fan service in there. It makes perfect sense for characters to choose to name their son a meaningful name.

Han shooting the bow for the first time in 50 years less so.

The bowcaster is less sensible, but it served a plot purpose(weakening Kylo Ren and emphasizing his disoriented state), so it's there for a reason. Ben is just there just to be there. It's the less justifiable piece of fanservice than the Bowcaster, but also pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
 
C'mon man, no.

He's wearing a similar jacket and back to being a wry smuggler because that's what we all remember Han from in the OT thus the movie had to make sure he looked and acted exactly as he did when we last saw him decades ago. Honestly, a guy whose a god damn famous legend in the galaxy is not going to be able to operate effectively as a smuggler for long. Like, he couldn't do any other job with his stature in the galaxy?

He's a smuggler because we remembered him as a smuggler and I'm fine with it for the most part. Han Solo stuff is the least offensive fan service in the movie.

Just because it was put in for fanservice doesn't mean it is only believable because of it.

I mean, the fact he is wearing things that he acknowledges is simply reminiscent of what he used to wear makes it believable for a throwaway line.

I don't need to know Han's whole story about all the shit he did between OT and F:A on why he isn't wearing different clothes, and that line is more than enough for such a little detail.

As to why he's a smuggler, he was famous for being a smuggler well before the OT, and lots of people treat the OT as a legend.

He's also a huge bullshitter too.
 
So, you are missing the line where they say she is a great pilot then? That would validate the plothole? That would simply make it believable?

Sorry i disagree. I respect your opinion but i disagree. To me, the evidence isnt just a line. If the character doesnt convince me through his actions and interactions regarding his skills and background, i wont hold to a line, to make the whole thing believable.

He got into the X Wing extremely fast and even if he was that amazkng , ffs he should have a briefing or 2 as well as a test run. But we didnt see that and its a good thing we didnt because that would ruin the whole pacing of the movie.

Rey didnt have an opportunity to share convincgly with us her piloting skills, without making it look like she was saying the line to the audience not the characters.

We know she knows ships from the incide out and when shit hit the fan she told Finn that they need a ship now. So obviously she knows how to pilot ships or has done so before. Now her extremely fast familirization with MF is ofcourse convienient and odd, but that is equivalent to Luke and X Wing for me.

Its a moot point to find fault here imo in regards to TFA.

You seem to not understand the concept of a "setup" or foreshadowing. Luke is properly setup in ANH as a crack pilot, could it be done better? Of course, but that doesn't negate the fact that it is clearly setup by the words and deeds of Luke and others. During the briefing room scene it is Luke who is able to point out that the shot is doable with the right amount of skill followed immediately after another scene where his skills as a pilot are reaffirmed. When Luke steps into the X-Wing we aren't scratching are heads going, can he pilot that? Instead, we are going finally we can see what this guy can do.

Rey is not set up as a pilot, she just hops in the cockpit and starts pulling off crazy maneuvers. Thus, we have to scratch our heads and go, "did we know she could do that?" You can't just pull that kind of stuff out of nowhere without any sort of setup.
 
The power levels in the fights were fine. The film numerous times sets up the bowcaster to be some sort of grenade launcher in terms of power and splash damage, and Kylo takes that baby right in the gut, its never stated but in my head canon he's basically holding his guts in with the force meaning his attention is distracted and thats why we see very little of his force ability.

Then Finn of course has some melee skills and manages to fight him very breifly before getting murked.

Then Rey who is also shown to a badass with her stick similarly manages to hold of Kylo briefly before getting beaten, then she accepts her role as a force user and gets the upper hand on a severely injured Kylo using her powers.
 
They should release the next Star Wars with a 10 hour documentary explaining every tiny detail it seems to keep the fans happy.

The complaint about the prequels was they over explain everything. Now they go back to basics, just throw us in this adventure, and we get complaints about how things aren't explained enough.
 
They should release the next Star Wars with a 10 hour documentary explaining every tiny detail it seems to keep the fans happy.

The complaint about the prequels was they over explain everything. Now they go back to basics, just throw us in this adventure, and we get complaints about how things aren't explained enough.

Yes, because we can only have those two extremes nothing in the middle.
 
Yes, because we can only have those two extremes nothing in the middle.
I thought this was pretty in the middle. Everything you need to know to understand the story is there in the movie. Some things are left unanswered because they are not important or they are left open for future movies to answer.

Obviously there is more to Rey then we know now. We will find out in Episode VIII.
 
You seem to not understand the concept of a "setup" or foreshadowing. Luke is properly setup in ANH as a crack pilot, could it be done better? Of course, but that doesn't negate the fact that it is clearly setup by the words and deeds of Luke and others. During the briefing room scene it is Luke who is able to point out that the shot is doable with the right amount of skill followed immediately after another scene where his skills as a pilot are reaffirmed. When Luke steps into the X-Wing we aren't scratching are heads going, can he pilot that? Instead, we are going finally we can see what this guy can do.

Rey is not set up as a pilot, she just hops in the cockpit and starts pulling off crazy maneuvers. Thus, we have to scratch our heads and go, "did we know she could do that?" You can't just pull that kind of stuff out of nowhere without any sort of setup.

Forgive me for asking this but i havent followed the thread that closely, just out of curiocity could you give me your personal opinion on TFA?
 
The 3CPO moment was good comedic timing.
I've always liked 3CPO more than R2. For real.

I'm glad they didn't have much screen time, there were used the appropriate amount. When the characters were first announce I feared they would be overused like in the prequels.

Audio recoding of JJ talking at a WGA screening about the Obi-Wan lines.

The 'Rey' part is indeed Sir Alec Guinness (comes from the line: He betrayed and murdered your father.) 'These are your first steps' is said by Ewan Mcgregor.

Skip to around 27m for JJ to start talking about the Obi-Wan lines.

That's cool. This whole Obi-wan business is just unnecessarily mystifying, though. I just don't see the point of keeping the main character a complete enigma.

He said he took "Rey" from "afraid" btw.
 
You mean a second spoiler thread?

I don't know much about GAF stats or whatever, but has a film thread ever gotten locked due to views/posts before its opening weekend had finished?

(granted, the thread opened a week before it released)

Yup, I don't remember a film thread, SPOILERS one even (iirc don't they usually get less posts?), to get a second OT. Awakens has that (deserved) hype.
 
rougue one is set between episode 3 and 4.
so at least 30 years befor episode 7.
The plot revolves around a band of resistance fighters uniting to steal the plans to the Death Star...The theft of the Death Star plans was first referenced in the opening crawl in A New Hope.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rogue_One
There's no reason why someone from that group couldn't have met up with Luke after the events of episode 6, right?
 
You seem to not understand the concept of a "setup" or foreshadowing. Luke is properly setup in ANH as a crack pilot, could it be done better? Of course, but that doesn't negate the fact that it is clearly setup by the words and deeds of Luke and others. During the briefing room scene it is Luke who is able to point out that the shot is doable with the right amount of skill followed immediately after another scene where his skills as a pilot are reaffirmed. When Luke steps into the X-Wing we aren't scratching are heads going, can he pilot that? Instead, we are going finally we can see what this guy can do.

Rey is not set up as a pilot, she just hops in the cockpit and starts pulling off crazy maneuvers. Thus, we have to scratch our heads and go, "did we know she could do that?" You can't just pull that kind of stuff out of nowhere without any sort of setup.

As far as I remember, Luke wanted to go to the pilot academy, nothing really set him up to be a crack pilot.
 
I'm glad they didn't have much screen time, there were used the appropriate amount. When the characters were first announce I feared they would be overused like in the prequels.



That's cool. This whole Obi-wan business is just unnecessarily mystifying, though. I just don't see the point of keeping the main character a complete enigma.

He said he took "Rey" from "afraid" btw.

Oh you're right, my bad misheard it.
 
I think when we obsess over character histories, connections, twists, and all that we stop making good stories and instead fixate on simply creating lore for the sake of lore. And it's basically the death knell for a series and good future story telling. Yes, it's Star Wars. Yes, there will be connections and poetry because that's what the series has and that's absolutely okay. But it has never been and should never be a crutch for the story itself. It's important to move forward and not rely too much on tieing things together, things that don't need to be tied together, and things that don't need to be explained.

It's honestly why I've totally lost all enthusiasm for Disney's Marvel films despite really getting into them, because they've all just regressed into a monotonous sludge of a gigantic canon. It's not, in my opinion, good script writing or narrative when films go down this path even when they're obviously part of a sequence. And I hope moving on from Force Awakens the future Star Wars episodes can stand alone as their own thing. Their own journey.

And to be honest The Force Awakens has plenty of that. It just doesn't spend enough time on building a coherent whole of those new things to really blow me away, instead falling back into tired, predictable routines to bring those new things together.
 
The power levels in the fights were fine. The film numerous times sets up the bowcaster to be some sort of grenade launcher in terms of power and splash damage, and Kylo takes that baby right in the gut, its never stated but in my head canon he's basically holding his guts in with the force meaning his attention is distracted and thats why we see very little of his force ability.

Then Finn of course has some melee skills and manages to fight him very breifly before getting murked.

Then Rey who is also shown to a badass with her stick similarly manages to hold of Kylo briefly before getting beaten, then she accepts her role as a force user and gets the upper hand on a severely injured Kylo using her powers.
We have seen movie characters get injured but still fight at 100% unless movie explicitly showed that performance was hindered by it (eg Kylo struggling to swing).

The bowcaster itself was either inconsistent or multi-mode in TFA. In some scenes it was a nade launcher, in others it was a regular blaster.

Finn got punked by a regular stormtrooper in melee earlier.

Kylo is pretty weak, worse than Ultron. Hopefully his boss gets him a hyperbolic time chamber.
 
There has to be a scene in a future film where the Jedi that have become one the Force confront Kylo Ren. His Vader worship needs to be directly contradicted by Anakin Skywalker. And I'm really interested to see what Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin think of Luke's going into hiding. You could argue it led to the obliteration of the Hosnian system. Those three can't be happy about that. And I wonder what the destruction of trillions of lives did to Luke. I almost expected him to be in a Force coma when Rey arrived.
 
Forgive me for asking this but i havent followed the thread that closely, just out of curiocity could you give me your personal opinion on TFA?

Not my post but I agree with 99% of it:

Tookay said:
I thought it was an enjoyable movie, but not a particularly great one. I feel like it was far clunkier than some of Abrams' past efforts and Kasdan seemed to have an uneven touch.

Generally, the plot is okay. I like the ideas in it, even if they were well-worn. Creed showed that you can repeat story structures and still make an effective, moving film.

But the execution is really off in places. I feel like I can nail it down to several factors:

1) Characters: In general, I liked most of them. Finn was fun and likable, Kylo was interesting, etc. I appreciated the humor throughout.

But, more fundamentally, I think the character backgrounds and motivations were revealed at strange times or in too perfunctory of a manner. Revealing Kylo's heritage in an off-hand way and revealing his face before meeting Han felt like miscues that would have been better timed elsewhere. Other aspects like Han and Leia's interactions felt good, but were marred by strange dialogue (like the constant referencing of "Snoke" by his name, when the Emperor was never referred to in that way). Other newly introduced characters like Maz and Phasma felt completely pointless (largely because they were intended to be utilized differently).

And there is a slight issue with Rey. It feels like the storytellers withheld vital information about her character (because there's clearly something more about her past and her knowledge of the Force), and that kept me from truly connecting with her. I think that was a bad move from a character empathy standpoint.

2) Direction: Other things, like JJ's direction and cinematography drove me nuts. Oftentimes, you're thrown into scenes without even a simple establishing shot to geographically lay out the space the characters are interacting in. Sometimes we're being thrown into battles and there is no spatial awareness of the physical distance between those firing at each other or what they're aiming at. It generally makes the laser shooting and aerial combat sort of boring (particularly Poe's raid on Starkiller), because we don't know who's gaining the upperhand, what the goal is, or what the stakes are. I'd argue the only effective action scenes in the movie are the Falcon chase and the lightsaber fights at the end because they maintain spatial awareness throughout.

(Also on the cinematography note, the constant usage of close-ups made some scenes look cheap and felt like a waste of the real-world locations they filmed at. Why go to film on-location, if you're going to film the location out-of-focus behind giant talking heads?)

(3) There are narrative issues from a conceptual standpoint (without going into the obvious stuff, like the Starkiller). I think the whole "Luke is missing" angle just doesn't work. We're not given a good reason for it, nor is there any urgency to the mission to find him, especially when the characters are sidetracked by other things throughout the film. Simply put, we don't understand why all of the sudden Luke is needed right this second, given that the good guys seem to be blowing through hundreds of stormtroopers and besting dark siders without him. It doesn't help when the whole "mystery" of the movie is solved because R2 just randomly decides to "wake up" at the end and present the portion of the map where Luke is hiding.

Additionally: they blew it in terms of the lack of exposition. I appreciate leaving some things vague and allowing the audience to fill in the gaps, but there was nothing to chew on. We know about as much about Snoke, the First Order, the Knights of Ren, the Resistance, and the New Republic at the film's conclusion as we did in its introduction. That isn't effective world-building; it's declining to world-build. Maybe the prequels went too far with exposition, but explaining the basic state of the universe in a seven film series isn't asking too much, especially thirty years after the last chronological film.

4) Editing: This movie is missing a good 20 minutes and it shows. Characters come and go without you even getting a chance to say goodbye (Maz, Phasma). We go to places sometimes without even setting that place up (I'm thinking of the first reveal of Starkiller Base in particular). Other moments have no chance to breathe (like Finn's buddy dying or Maz's scenes), but others go on awkwardly long (like Rey and Kylo's interrogation scene, where it's just boring shots of people grimacing at each other for a minute). Some of the "visual jokes" are also mistimed or improperly conveyed, like Han's hyperdrive into the Starkiller panet, which should be a "funny" and "exciting" moment, but just comes off whatever.

5) John Williams: He didn't put in his best work here. I'm struggling to think of a single new motif that I found memorable. Arguably, his weak score hurt the movie's emotional beats and intended "hell yeah" moments more than anything else I listed above.

It probably sounds like I hated it, but I didn't. I had a good time and look forward to the next one. But I question whether or not I'm looking forward to the next one primarily because I wasn't satisfied here.
 
If Kylo Ren ever had real proper training with a lightsaber intended for practical combat, he would not be using a stupid ass cross shaped modded saber. The first thing his master would have told him in training is "You are not Darth Maul".

I've heard legends of that man...
He was powerful enough to defeat a Jedi Hippie!
And valiantly fought the great Kenobi.
 
My mate, who is a huge Star Wars nerd and was super pumped for Force Awakens, really hated that final fight with Kylo. He liked the movie, and I liked the sequence a lot more than him, but he just felt it made no sense. Like it was inconsistent on just how powerful or attuned to the force Kylo and Rey were, Finn's capabilities. Weird moments of weakness and strength on both halves. He had no issue with Rey being force sensitive and a great fighter, but her basically going from 0 to 10 in force capabilities with seemingly no training for an overwhelming majority of her life, while Kylo botched the fight when you assume he's had years more to attune himself, just seemed odd and pandering to Rey for the sake of it.

I liked Rey a lot more than him, but I do feel she was presented with way, way too much heavy handing as a Mary Sue. Her fear of moving forward, insistence to stay tied to this silly hope of the people who abandoned her on not-Tattooine, and the brief moments of trying to work her shit out were really great. But her arc predictably turned out that no matter how much she struggled with any given scenario she'd eventually ace it almost entirely without help. And I think, for a character that's otherwise interesting, that's a boring arc. Too much undeveloped and unearned greatness condensed into a short single movie period.

I do like my head canon that Kylo isn't half as good as he thinks he is though. Despite being trained by Luke (and I assume Snoke, if he's force sensitive at all) he grew up in an environment where there were no real Jedi/Sith conflicts, and hasn't truly been tested in Force on Force. Vader's insane skill and power was highlighted by the fact he existed in a time when Jedi were numerous. His training was top tier, and his fall the dark side had him under the wing of arguably the most powerful Sith ever. He trained with the best on both sides, faught in wars, and so his power and skill are well earned. Kylo, even at the hands of Luke, never would have had that.
 
Not my post but I agree with 99% of it:

Much obliged.

I also agree with a number of points in that post and I certainly dont act as if this film is the holy grail of sci fi or filmaking in general.

I enjoyed it perhaps more than the description in that post and perhaps the fact that i choose to ignore some conveniences when it comes to a movie like SW is the reason why. But i do that because i really feel like convenient stuff like these are spread in all SW movies and universe, one way or another.
 
My mate, who is a huge Star Wars nerd and was super pumped for Force Awakens, really hated that final fight with Kylo. He liked the movie, and I liked the sequence a lot more than him, but he just felt it made no sense. Like it was inconsistent on just how powerful or attuned to the force Kylo and Rey were, Finn's capabilities. Weird moments of weakness and strength on both halves. He had no issue with Rey being force sensitive and a great fighter, but her basically going from 0 to 10 in force capabilities with seemingly no training for an overwhelming majority of her life, while Kylo botched the fight when you assume he's had years more to attune himself, just seemed odd and pandering to Rey for the sake of it.

I liked Rey a lot more than him, but I do feel she was presented with way, way too much heavy handing as a Mary Sue. Her fear of moving forward, insistence to stay tied to this silly hope of the people who abandoned her on not-Tattooine, and the brief moments of trying to work her shit out were really great. But her arc predictably turned out that no matter how much she struggled with any given scenario she'd eventually ace it almost entirely without help. And I think, for a character that's otherwise interesting, that's a boring arc. Too much undeveloped and unearned greatness condensed into a short single movie period.

I do like my head canon that Kylo isn't half as good as he thinks he is though. Despite being trained by Luke (and I assume Snoke, if he's force sensitive at all) he grew up in an environment where there were no real Jedi/Sith conflicts, and hasn't truly been tested in Force on Force. Vader's insane skill and power was highlighted by the fact he existed in a time when Jedi were numerous. His training was top tier, and his fall the dark side had him under the wing of arguably the most powerful Sith ever. He trained with the best on both sides, faught in wars, and so his power and skill are well earned. Kylo, even at the hands of Luke, never would have had that.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=189960368&postcount=306

Here's my take on it, though other posters also added that he was shot by Chewbacca and also wounded by Finn.
 
Liked it but don't love it.

Stuff I enjoyed: the new cast have good chemistry and charisma. Nice humourous moments. Just the general tone of it was a huge improvement over the prequels. Kyle Ren made for a good villain. Loved the Tie fighter escape and Falcon chase through the wrecks. In fact, really liked everything on the desert planet. Light sabre duels were good.

Stuff I didn't like so much: too many recycled plot elements. Superweapon with a single weakness again? People just conveniently and inorganically come across important characters and items when the plot demands it. The dogfights lacked tension or any clear sense of geometry. (ANH still has the best Xwing action) Snoke was poor. As with the recycled plot elements, I had the same gripe with the world building. The tech designs seemed old hat. Where was this movie's AT-AT? Or B-wing? Or super star destroyer? It would be nice to be given a few new things we didn't know we would like in amongst all the established favourites. The environments felt recycled also. It all felt like a remix album without any new songs. The plot recycling in TFA may not be so bad in subsequent films can springboard off it into new territory. I hope so.

All in all, it was a solid 7/10 for me.
 
I said this to a couple people:
John Boyega was a great actor in VII, but Finn wasn't that good of a character at all.

I just found that he panicked too much, was pretty incompetent, and wanted to jump in that Rey boat too hard.

I hope he evolves into a better character honestly.

Otherwise, the movie was fantastic, and despite the fact that I could nitpick it all day, it surprisingly exceeded my high expectations.
I kind of feel the same way. I can't say enough nice things about this movie and I'm most definitely going to see it atleast two more times but I would say Finn is the biggest wasted opportunity in this film. He feels more like a plot device. There are moments where he just comes off as incompetent and becomes too much of a vehicle for the movies' comic relief.

I'm hoping they take the opportunity in the next two films to develop his character. I can't say enough good things about Rey, you can tell these two films will chronicle her ascension into a legend.
 
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