[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #2) - One Thumb Up

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http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=189960368&postcount=306

Here's my take on it, though other posters also added that he was shot by Chewbacca and also wounded by Finn.

Yeah, it's all fair and I agree with it. I had no issue with Rey lacking some smack down, and our post-film debates a mate and I kept telling my other friend that Kylo's state of mind would have been impacted by the situation. He was wounded. He was angry. He has issues when it comes to not living up to Vader, which would have broken his resolve.

I think I mean more just as a character arc I would have liked to see Rey not pull off mind tricks, resistance of dark side, telekinesis, and force based fighting proficiency all in one movie. Will be interesting to see where they go with this in the next one.
 
Yeah, it's all fair and I agree with it. I had no issue with Rey lacking some smack down, and our post-film debates a mate and I kept telling my other friend that Kylo's state of mind would have been impacted by the situation. He was wounded. He was angry. He has issues when it comes to not living up to Vader, which would have broken his resolve.

I think I mean more just as a character arc I would have liked to see Rey not pull off mind tricks, resistance of dark side, telekinesis, and force based fighting proficiency all in one movie. Will be interesting to see where they go with this in the next one.
I'm gonna see it again soon, which will let me keep an eye out for these narrative elements more. But as of right now, I'm fairly satisfied with Rey's character arc, since her abilities didn't work for any one reason, but several combined reasons. Like, she was able to pilot the Falcon away from the homeplanet, but she'd have gotten shot down if Finn didn't take that nothing less than epic shot. Her mind trick thing worked only after it failed the first two times, so she didn't just instantly perfect it. Her bouts with Kylo Ren were won not just because she was strong, but because Kylo Ren was also conflicted in many aspects. The only real thing that she did with absolutely no help whatsoever was probably kick the asses of those two goons her dealer sent after her.

Rey's a badass, no one doubts that, but she wouldn't have been able to do what she did on her own. As I said, I hate the term mary sue because it is often a frequently misunderstood term, but one thing that tends to happen with Mary Sue characters is that they literally take over the movie, rendering other's contributions worthless. Rey never does that. All the characters maintain their own agency. Hell, especially Poe, who is actually the reason the Resistance won, and I think he must have a total of maybe 10 minutes of screentime.

It'll be interesting to see what they do with her in Episode 8 though, where she'll have some actual mastery of her force abilities.
 
Just came back from it. Holy shit it was GREAT!

I do have a few questions though:

1/ I'm confused about the whole Republic/Resistance/First Order thing. I thought the Resistance and the Republic were the same thing at first but it seems not. Are the Republic "good guys" or is the First Order part of it? What even IS the First Order?

2/ What was the Falcon doing in Jakku? And what were Han and Chewie doing that made them find it so soon after it took off? They seemed like they hadn't seen it in a while even though they found it like two minutes after it took off.

3/ Han seemed like he had never seen Chewie's weapon in action. Wtf?

4/ So... is it Ben Organa or Ben Solo?

5/ Was Max von Sydow a Jedi in hiding? Seemed like he knew Luke or something but he didn't even have a lightsaber.

6/ Did Captain Phasma survive?

7/ One of the Stormtroopers had a red shoulder pad. Is that meant to be a specific character or is it just a higher-ranking trooper (or multiple higher-ranking troopers)?

8/ Why would a map of Luke's location exist? Also it seemed like R2-D2 randomly woke up for no reason.

9/ (There may not be an answer to this yet) Is Snoke a giant or is that an effect with the hologram?

10/ Rey called Finn "my friend" in their last scene. -> Friendzone?

11/ That kid in Rey's flashback, was it a young Rey? I thought maybe it could be Anakin since she also saw a vision of Luke.
 
anyone posted the RedLetterMedia review yet?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvsiJppCdmk

Mike saying "i loved it, it's everything i hoped it to be" was pretty cute :)

I often find their reviews of decent movies to be pretty bad. It's probably difficult for them to review those kinds of movies. I enjoy their reviews of bad movies. Those are easier to pick apart for them, and it doesn't feel like they need to think too hard or make shit up to attempt make valid points.
 
I love it. Not as good as ep 4 or 5 but it's still damn good. Having the movie spoiled for me did not stop me from enjoying the film at all. If anything, I just want to see more of Captain Phasma; she's so cool, yet does absolutely nothing in the film :(( One of my fav films this year, just below Fury Road in my ranking.
 
I often find their reviews of decent movies to be pretty bad. It's probably difficult for them to review those kinds of movies. I enjoy their reviews of bad movies. Those are easier to pick apart for them, and it doesn't feel like they need to think too hard or make shit up to attempt make valid points.

I just don't like the non-organized nature of their half in the bag reviews. Plinkett was as good as it was because the reviews were very articulate and organized and revised. This is often them just rambling. Doesn't necessarily mean their criticisms are invalid, but it's presented much more tediously.
 
Just came back from it. Holy shit it was GREAT!

I do have a few questions though:

1/ I'm confused about the whole Republic/Resistance/First Order thing. The Resistance and the Republic aren't the same thing? Are the Republic "good guys" or is the First Order part of it? What even IS the First Order?

2/ What was the Falcon doing in Jakku? And what were Han and Chewie doing that made them find it so soon after it took off? They seemed like they hadn't seen it in a while even though they found it like two minutes after it took off.

3/ Han seemed like he had never seen Chewie's weapon in action. Wtf?

4/ So... is it Ben Organa or Ben Solo?

5/ Was Max von Sydow a Jedi in hiding? Seemed like he knew Luke or something but he didn't even have a lightsaber.

6/ Did Captain Phasma survive?

7/ One of the Stormtroopers had a red shoulder pad. Is that meant to be a specific character or is it just a higher-ranking trooper (or multiple higher-ranking troopers)?

8/ Why would a map of Luke's location exist? Also it seemed like R2-D2 randomly woke up for no reason.

9/ (There may not be an answer to this yet) Is Snoke a giant or is that an effect with the hologram?

10/ Ren called Finn "my friend" in their last scene. -> Friendzone?

1. I'm sourcing most of this from the visual dictionary, not the film. After the Battle of Jakku, it sounds like the Republic signed a treaty called the Galactic Concordance with what was left of the Empire. Eventually, parts of the Empire ended up forming the First Order, they remained in the uncharted regions of space avoiding the attention of the Republic. The Republic recognised the rise of the First Order but didn't want to start another galactic civil war. Leia formed the Resistance to try and prevent their ascendance.

2) The Falcon got stolen off them and traded around until it ended up in the hands of Unkar Plutt. They lost track of it and didn't know it was on Jakku.

3) I'm guessing Chewie made some upgrades to his crossbow.

4) Good question. Ben Organa because they were never married? Or were they? I don't think this has been confirmed.

5) Lor Sen Tekka was around during the Clone Wars and remained a supporter of the Jedi during the Dark Times. He was a follower of the Church of the Force, which I assume we'll find out more about in the future. The visual dictionary says he wasn't force sensitive.

6) Phasma was confirmed to appear again by Kathy Kennedy.

7) The pauldron means they're the squadron leader, as in the OT.

8) I'm still a bit confused about the map. Did R2 wake up because Rey arrived? Possibly. I can't see where the map would come from except Luke himself.

9) Snoke was a hologram. He's about seven ft tall according to Serkis.

10) Possibly. Probably. Guess we'll find out.
 
They should release the next Star Wars with a 10 hour documentary explaining every tiny detail it seems to keep the fans happy.

The complaint about the prequels was they over explain everything. Now they go back to basics, just throw us in this adventure, and we get complaints about how things aren't explained enough.

While I ultimately agree with this, I think that some additional lines form Admiral Akbar or some other Resistance officer would have been nice to explain the magnitude of the Star Killer strike. I think that's the only thing that I wish I got more clarification on.
 
Yeah, it's all fair and I agree with it. I had no issue with Rey lacking some smack down, and our post-film debates a mate and I kept telling my other friend that Kylo's state of mind would have been impacted by the situation. He was wounded. He was angry. He has issues when it comes to not living up to Vader, which would have broken his resolve.
If we are somehow counting mental/emotional states in a film series that does not go that deep in the first place... Rey herself was heartbroken about not reuniting with her parents in Jakku.

I don't think this element is a factor in their duel, for both sides.
 
-snip-

Remember to be considerate, and keep all your Force Awakens spoilers in this thread. Please don't go dragging them out of here and stashing them behind black bars in the |OT| or any other of the roughly 2597 Star Wars threads currently floating around Off-Topic.

-snip-

OP Missed opportunity:

"or any other of the roughly FN-2187 Star Wars threads currently floating around Off-Topic."
 
I kind of feel the same way. I can't say enough nice things about this movie and I'm most definitely going to see it at least two more times but I would say Finn is the biggest wasted opportunity in this film. He feels more like a plot device. There are moments where he just comes off as incompetent and becomes too much of a vehicle for the movies' comic relief.

Now that I think about it, Finn doesn't have much of an arc. He starts off as a good person, who lacks skills and confidence in himself but is very courageous. Pretty much stays that way through the whole film. He has a very brief moment where he intends to leave everything behind but is almost immediately back involved. Han in ANH at least makes you believe we will never see him again when he packs up his reward.

I mean how much more powerful would that scene on Takodona been if we saw the ship take off and then in midst of the battle we suddenly see Finn come out of nowhere fighting.
 
In regards to Phasma putting down the shield. Im thinking Phasma really didnt think the shield would matter...and really it didnt, the only way the mission suceeded was because of the Han explosions not the air assault which would have failed.
 
Just came back from it. Holy shit it was GREAT!

I do have a few questions though:

1/ I'm confused about the whole Republic/Resistance/First Order thing. I thought the Resistance and the Republic were the same thing at first but it seems not. Are the Republic "good guys" or is the First Order part of it? What even IS the First Order?

2/ What was the Falcon doing in Jakku? And what were Han and Chewie doing that made them find it so soon after it took off? They seemed like they hadn't seen it in a while even though they found it like two minutes after it took off.

3/ Han seemed like he had never seen Chewie's weapon in action. Wtf?

4/ So... is it Ben Organa or Ben Solo?

5/ Was Max von Sydow a Jedi in hiding? Seemed like he knew Luke or something but he didn't even have a lightsaber.

6/ Did Captain Phasma survive?

7/ One of the Stormtroopers had a red shoulder pad. Is that meant to be a specific character or is it just a higher-ranking trooper (or multiple higher-ranking troopers)?

8/ Why would a map of Luke's location exist? Also it seemed like R2-D2 randomly woke up for no reason.

9/ (There may not be an answer to this yet) Is Snoke a giant or is that an effect with the hologram?

10/ Rey called Finn "my friend" in their last scene. -> Friendzone?

11/ That kid in Rey's flashback, was it a young Rey? I thought maybe it could be Anakin since she also saw a vision of Luke.

1) This is poorly explained, somebody else can definitely explain it better than I can. The main idea is The New Republic is what the Resistance was in the Original Trilogy. They signed a peace treaty with the First Order which is what remains of The Empire. The Resistance refused to sign the peace treaty and wish to fight the First Order. The Republic is secretly supporting the Resistance. This was allegedly in a book somewhere, and I learned of it through this thread. Solely from movie knowledge the most we can understand is that The Republic don't seem to care too much about the First Order, the remnants of the Republic, whereas the Resistance recognise them as a threat and have resolved to fight them, and this has been secretly backed by the Republic (who care about them, but not enough to intervene themselves and launch a galactic war).

2) Unclear as of now. The movie's explanation is that the ship was involved in a series of robberies and sales and ultimately ended in Jakkar. Whether this is the truth, or there is another reason, remains to be seen.

3) It's more that he's never tried it himself I think. This is unsatisfactory to some.

4) Ben Solo I believe.

5) His purpose is unclear. The common belief seems to be that he was in hiding on Jakku in a similar position to Ben Kenobi, so that he could watch over Ren, make sure she's alright, and when the time is right bring her to Luke if necessary (or some variation).

6) Yes.

7) I assume it's meant to be an indication of rank.

8) Unclear as of now, presumably it's for Ren. Note that R2-D2 also awakens when Ren returns. It could be that Luke used the force to reactivate him from afar, or it could be that Ren's presence, now aware and accepting of her connection to the force, awoke R2-D2.

9) He's tall (seven foot) but it was an effect of the hologram similar to Palpatine's appearance in A New Hope but far exaggerated.

10) Not really, she's been through a lot with him and they've developed a bond. Maybe it'll progress to be more, maybe not, but given the character traits I don't think they'll go down the route of a romance at all.

11) It depends on the time, do you mean the kid in the desert planet? If so, that was Rey, yelling "come back" to her parents/guardians after being dropped on Jakku for the first time.

Somebody can correct me if I was wrong on these, but most of it was my understanding from the film.
 
If we are somehow counting mental/emotional states in a film series that does not go that deep in the first place... Rey herself was heartbroken about not reuniting with her parents in Jakku.

I don't think this element is a factor in their duel, for both sides.

Rey's pain is a dull ache of a wound that she's been nursing for a long, long time. It's something that hurts, but it's not the only thing ever on her mind. It's been around too long for it to be that. Beyond that, the entire point of her character development, especially at this critical point, is that she is moving ON from searching for her parents, and embracing her new identity as a Jedi.

Meanwhile, Ren's pain is about the most truamatic action of his life, the murder of his father, that he literally performed just now.

Dude, I have serious concerns about your understanding of emotional states. First you don't seem to see the distinction between the two very different positions of Luke and Ren in terms of how they act, and now you seem to think Rey's and Ren's pains were equivalent. You're essentially generalizing them to the point of pure duality that doesn't distinguish the hundreds of different ways you can experience both positive and negative emotions.

Edit: You know what, I actually apologize. That last paragraph was patronizing and dickish. I have no frame of reference for how you view emotions just because we're talking about a movie. I can tell you that these characters are all going through different things, and of these, only Ren's is actually turmoil, but I have no right presuming on what you know or don't know.
 
I feel like the Mary Sue arguments against Rey would matter more if she just weren't enjoyable to watch, but the thing is, at least for me, that she was immensely enjoyable to watch interact with other characters and I think I can forgive some of the Mary Sue-ish qualities she might have. I don't necessarily disagree with those arguments, but I feel more strongly about how much I enjoyed watching her than being bothered by what her character might have been lacking.
 
8) I'm still a bit confused about the map. Did R2 wake up because Rey arrived? Possibly. I can't see where the map would come from except Luke himself.

I always thought R2 made the map himself. Luke left and R2 probably left Luke after and has been processing the map this whole time and just happened to wake up at that time after finishing processing.
 
The Republic recognised the rise of the First Order but didn't want to start another galactic civil war. Leia formed the Resistance to try and prevent their ascendance.
I like this. The Resistance is like the Republic equivalent of the CIA's Special Activities Division. Funded by them but deniable and kept at arm's reach so they can intervene without triggering all-out war.
 
I'm glad they didn't have much screen time, there were used the appropriate amount. When the characters were first announce I feared they would be overused like in the prequels.

They shouldn't have been in the prequels at all. Do you still have your washing mashine from 30 years ago?
 
Not my post but I agree with 99% of it:

Yep. Direction, story, characters, score, and still generally entertaining in slite of those issues - all spot on and my biggest complaints from the previous thread.

I've been very critical of Abrams here, and I won't hide the fact I'm not a big fan of his work. I generally disagree with his casting choices - he always selects youth over experience. And his films reek of TV despite having blockbuster budgets. MI3 was guilty of this, and I gave him a pass because it was his first feature, but every movie since then lacks the scale of a theatrical experience. The post referenced calls this out with examples of shot framing, editing and other points. Read it, it sums it up nicely.

It's obvious Abrams was a director for hire on this, to get a movie out on time, on budget. I mentioned before he's no different than Ratner on this regard. They had to make a date, JJ scrapped the script and cranked out one last minute to start production on time. His frantic pace to meet the date has been mentioned not in so many words by Williams, which is why he switched to LA for recording the score, because working a continent apart wasn't going to work like it did with Lucas. Just look at the list of directors who turned it down. JJ was the only one willing to do it, for better or worse, given the constraints Disney created for themselves. I would have rather seens some of the other directors in Disney's stable take on director duties for VII, because given the same material they would have been able to better navigate through it and deliver a better product - Favreau, Gore Verbinski, Branaugh, Joe Johnston, Bird, Stanton, Docter, Lassiter.

But it's also interesting to see how they set up the rest of the trilogy. Rian Johnson for the next one and already locking in Colin Trevorrow for IX, seems to tell me they really are going for different styles over the course of the trilogy. And given those directors' relatively young careers, I've really liked what they've done and are really on the upswing in creativity.
 
No.

This has to be one of the most asked questions in the spoiler thread.

[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (thread #3) - It's Not Coruscant

I don't really mind the question though (even though it's been asked 2187 times). Admittedly, the movie doesn't do a great job of differentiating its giant city planet that is the capital of the largest government in the galaxy from the giant city planet that is the capital of the largest government in the galaxy in the previous 6 movies.

If you didn't catch that passing remark that they were targeting the Hosnian system and only caught targeting the "seat of the Republic", I could understand why people saw that scene and thought they were seeing Coruscant get blown up.
 
4) Good question. Ben Organa because they were never married? Or were they? I don't think this has been confirmed.
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they were
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She still might have kept her name. So that doesn't really help us out.
 
The film is certainly good, but it's practically going down a checklist of "what makes a Star Wars movie", which is kind of a bummer.

I know folks were really down on the prequels, but I appreciated them looking and feeling a bit different for a change.
 
I wish Captain Phasma had taken off her helmet in this film at least once. Wonder if she'll become the Boba Fett nemesis of this series and hunt the main characters for the next two films.
 
I wish Captain Phasma had taken off her helmet in this film at least once. Wonder if she'll become the Boba Fett nemesis of this series and hunt the main characters for the next two films.

seeing as she called out Finn for taking off his, i don't think she'd take off hers when on duty.
 
I wish Captain Phasma had taken off her helmet in this film at least once. Wonder if she'll become the Boba Fett nemesis of this series and hunt the main characters for the next two films.

Since she is confirmed back, I'm intrigued if she will still be in the First Order. I could see her going rouge but maintaining the uniform, with modifications. I hope she never takes off her mask, though. She's more badass without a face.
 
seeing as she called out Finn for taking off his, i don't think she'd take off hers when on duty.

They're grunts though. They aren't supposed to have personalities, faces, or names.

She has a name. Presumably she wasn't another brainwashed orphan. She might just have kept her helmet on in this film because the situation never necessitated taking it off (or maybe she's just space Brienne)
 
Thanks for the answers guys :)

I'm still processing the whole thing. It was such a great experience.

Also I had the biggest grin when Ackbar and Nien Nunb appeared on-screen. Wedge was totally going to be part of that attack. I'm not that disappointed that Denis Lawson refused to appear in the film though, as he might have overshadowed Poe.
 
11/ That kid in Rey's flashback, was it a young Rey? I thought maybe it could be Anakin since she also saw a vision of Luke.

It was 100% Rey. The hand holding her back and the voice saying "quiet girl" were that of the junk dealer who was handing out rations.
 
The film is certainly good, but it's practically going down a checklist of "what makes a Star Wars movie", which is kind of a bummer.

I know folks were really down on the prequels, but I appreciated them looking and feeling a bit different for a change.

Ya they played it way too safe when they really didn't need to. I'm having a hard time thinking of anything memorable from the whole movie. All of the attempts at big, emotional moments just fall short for me since they're too similar to moments from the OT.
 
If we are somehow counting mental/emotional states in a film series that does not go that deep in the first place... Rey herself was heartbroken about not reuniting with her parents in Jakku.

She was, but that was much earlier and not necessarily in the context of the scene, which could have been demonstrating exactly the opposite; moving on, realising she has a connection with Finn and recent developments, her new friends, her potential future, and committing to the moment. Intervening in the Finn vs Kylo fight is more or less that, as she stops retreating and accepts her identity. Kylo's emotional state and insecurities, on the other hand, are deeply entwined with his feelings of inadequacy and loss of control over what he believes to be superiority. He's wounded, he's angry, he's frustrated, and he's not effortlessly winning.
 
Finally back from vacation. Missed a bunch of stuff I have to catch up on (Vader Annual, Before the Awakening, etc.) but I got to see TFA twice. Good but not great movie, certainly better than some SW movies but certainly weaker than others. I love Finn, Rey's ok, Poe was good when he was there, Phasma was criminally underused. Driver as Ben was great. Event though the plot is heavily ANH redux, I didn't mind that since SW is all about poetry, but I feel like it kind of fell apart in the third act. There was definitely an extreme amount of editing done there, and I wish a lot of the concepts from preproduction and the shot list had made it in (I was so disappointed when Kylo doesn't have a scene in the Falcon cockpit and the Warhammer was totally excised from the film). The Starkiller Base raid had no tension at all since we all knew exactly how it would play out. You would think the FO would've taken some sort of lesson from the Empire and built the thermal oscillator to be a trap or had some crazy weapons or multiple shields protecting it or something.

Best part of the movie was the Force vision, especially with Ewan's brief "cameo" thrown in. Worst part was easily the destruction of Hosnian Prime due to the complete lack of a political element in the film. I flipped through the novelization and it added so much extra information about the state of galactic politics, even with the brief amount that touched on it. Very disappointed that JJ felt the need to streamline everything to placate the anti-PT crowd, and I think it's funny how many people now want there to have been more of a political aspect considering how many people complained about it before. But it definitely needs to be there, and the destruction of a Republic capital planet is such a major, galactic-history event that it's crazy how underplayed it was. Hopefully there's more going on in Episode VIII. I don't know how the FO can recoup from the destruction of Starkiller Base when they probably poured all their resources into it, considering they are only a fraction of the strength and size of the Empire. If they were logical about this, there should be some other Imperial remnant factions in Episode VIII to deal with, whether resurgent forces in the Core who had signed the Concordance or some other Outer Rim junta, as well as the survivors of the FO.
 
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