These two posts can't be quoted enough.
edit: "yes, please" at the below
[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #2) - One Thumb Up
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edit: "yes, please" at the below
Maybe Rey had a moment like this
as a kid and Luke noped the fuck out and dumped her on Jakku.
I'm in
take me Rian
Arrowgigantic
Member
Is this for real
He was blocking a device we now know were used to train younglings. And he, again, had Obiwan guiding him during the process.
Doesn't quite measure up to Rey's feats. Not even close.
This has never been a thing in Star Wars until now. Luke never had a hidden power up that he could've used against Vader in Empire. He just wasn't strong enough. Because he lacked training and Vader didn't.
You are leaning on your own understanding of the Force and it doesn't jive with the lore Accepting the Force isn't enough. You need to be able to control it. Control takes time, patience, and practice - and lots of it. Rey had none of these things.
The way you describe how the Force works is never how the Force has worked and the reason you give why she won isn't compelling. It doesn't undo the damage it has to Ren in terms of undermining the threat he poses. It doesn't diminish how strong the argument is for Rey being just too overpowered too quickly.
If Rey had won exploiting by Ren's wounds, it would have been a much more satisfying ending. It would reflect the hardships Rey had gone through in her life. She is a survivors. She will do what she has to do. It may not always be elegant or the most honourable thing, but she didn't have those luxuries in her life and she shouldn't have to feel any reservations over exploiting the wounds of a murderous piece of shit.
If Han shooting Greedo first is acceptable, then it should have been acceptable for Rey to fight dirty.
lastplayed
Member
I don't think he needed any special skills.
My take is that Stormtroopers all have jobs when they aren't in the field. Finn happened to be in sanitation, but when they needed ground troops, his number came up.
It's just like a real army. Soldiers don't just sit around twiddling their thumbs when they aren't shooting people.
But that's not how the force works!
/s
Who says she can only do certain things? One of the the hallmarks of learning to use the force is just learning to use the force. She clearly shows a talent at learning and understanding things in a concise logical manner. She merely applied that to the force. She learned to resist Ren and get into his head, then applied that to the guard. She did the same fighting Ren again. She's having a problem fighting Ren and uses the force to eke out a win. All you are doing is applying some random metric for jedi power, which is a PT way of looking at it.
Keep in mind it wasn't only the wound holding Ren back, he just killed his father. He hits that wound to stay angry, highlighting a weakness rarely touched on in the darkside, which is it really requires intense emotions to maintain that power. You need to be 100% a total dick to be powerful. Ren was phoning it in. He was conflicted even before killing Han. Then there's the fact the force bully is facing another force user.
Rey would probably have lost against Vader. Luke also had difficulty understanding and using the force. The ability to just "get it". Rey seems to have that ability. It does not mean she is more powerful, just that she has the unique ability to learn it quickly. This sort of thing is very much Star Wars.
The original Mary Sue was the star of a fan fiction satirizing young original characters who excel at everything to the point that they out shadow the canonical main characters.
By definition, Rey can't be one, because from the moment she's introduced its made clear that she's the main character of the trilogy.
Of course, the odds are that by ep 9 under Colin Trevorrow's direction she'll be reduced to being dragged along by the male main characters while in heels.
The thing about Rey using the Force is that, disregarding the awful prequels, the Force is basically faith-based Space Magic. And still, with her acceptor of her nascent connection to the Force, she just fumbles her way into a Jedi mind trick (on a stormtrooper, who are already established as being particularly vulnerable) and is in full retreat for much of her fight against Kylo.
Maybe Rey had a moment like this
as a kid and Luke noped the fuck out and dumped her on Jakku.
Force users gonna be floating coins all over the place in episode 8.
Well they weren't direct. they were just cut by the tip of the lightsaber. Finn likely got deeper cuts since he was unconscious for the rest of the movie
No Rey, you are the Revan.
DrGonzo615
Banned
Saw it today....pretty good.
Ren kinda comes off as a bit of a bitch tho. Hes an interesting character but fuck, he gets humiliated and defeated at almost every turn. His swabbling with imperial officers comes off as really lame.
Also, Im shockingly disappointed in the soundtrack. I was really expecting to be blown away but it came off as mostly underwhelming.
I know this comes off as very negative but overall I though the movie was good. Definitely a good start to a new trilogy and Im excited for the next movie already.
Ren kinda comes off as a bit of a bitch tho. Hes an interesting character but fuck, he gets humiliated and defeated at almost every turn. His swabbling with imperial officers comes off as really lame.
Also, Im shockingly disappointed in the soundtrack. I was really expecting to be blown away but it came off as mostly underwhelming.
I know this comes off as very negative but overall I though the movie was good. Definitely a good start to a new trilogy and Im excited for the next movie already.
CreepingFear
Member
Maybe Rey had a moment like this
as a kid and Luke noped the fuck out and dumped her on Jakku.
That's why Luke gave her a "what the fuck are you doing here" look at the end scene.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
I do wish they didn't have use the super weapon angle again in the first movie, at the very least I think it should've been saved for the second or even third of this trilogy and built it up as a bigger threat instead of an after thought. Aside from that the Han's introduction on the freighter aside from being a call back to his running afoul with the organized crime it could've been better, it felt less like introducing Han and more giving the crew from The Raid something small to do, probably the only part I didn't care for.
I think it needs to be repeated for reference, Rey and Ren's ages are 19-20 and 29-30.
Or the second, it didn't work until she calmed herself and focused.
I think it needs to be repeated for reference, Rey and Ren's ages are 19-20 and 29-30.
Or the second, it didn't work until she calmed herself and focused.
Spiritreaver
Member
People are okay with Finn being completely capable of shooting stuff down in TIE fighter because Stormtrooper training.
But aren't okay with Rey being capable of wielding a lightsaber despite displaying skilled use of a melee weapon
Okay.
But aren't okay with Rey being capable of wielding a lightsaber despite displaying skilled use of a melee weapon
Okay.
CreepingFear
Member
It would be a twist if Ben gets trained in the dark side in 8 while Rey gets trained in the light, but the end of 8, Rey has fallen to the dark side and Ben has come back to the light.
Professor Lich
Member
Like Fight Club a la Star Wars? I dig it.
That's not the same thing and you know it.
Kylo is 29-30 years old. He has trained under Luke and Snoke. He is plenty experienced. Far more so than Rey.
He was in extreme pain and his stamina wasn't what it usually would have been but he was still toying with Finn and beating Rey right up until the power up.
That's what made the way he lost stupid. He didn't lose because of his wounds. He was winning in spite of them and lost because of a dumbass power up that really was not necessary.
JetBlackPanda
Member
Kylo ain't coming back he killed Han Solo fans will never accept it.
CreepingFear
Member
Think Luke is using the force to voyeur peep on people like Superman in Superman Returns?
LookAtMeGo
Member
Rey is Finns Tyler Durden.
BravesCountry
Banned
I feel like people are getting too hung up on whether her abilities were explained or not, isn't the real criticism being that it is lazy to just have a character who is good at everything? It can work in some movies but star wars has usually been a story of development. I guess we will see how it plays out.
Where does Star Wars go from here? They can't keep releasing trilogies. I'm old enough to have seen the original on release. I enjoyed the prequels and was at the midnight showing of FA. I'm really excited for this trilogy but I don't see it making sense to just keep going and going. Its not like they can't make a fortune from Star Wars without the movies.
MisterHero
Super Member
You joke, but I seriously think they should throw in as much world building as they can.
Maybe I'm wrong though. It's a guaranteed billion dollar movie no matter what they do right?
Professor Lich
Member
What we don't see is that Luke stocked the first Jedi temple with hookers and blow.
Biggest-Geek-Ever
Member
Unless Solo ain't dead, friend. The last 15 years of TV have taught me, if you don't see a mind with the head decapitated, don't assume shit about whether they are dead or alive.
Blargonaut
Banned
Now see, I'm going to be anal here and say that your comparison between sand-sledding and piloting the Millennium Falcon isn't really a fair counter towards the desire for more explanation by the movie
The sledding bit was entirely self-explanatory; planetary desert, inhabitants adapt means of transportation for sand dunes, sliding is fast, gotta go fast, whatever
But regarding the Falcon moves she pulled off; where did the knowledge to do that come from? The movie says that she's a scavenger, she picks apart DECEASED ships for spare parts to trade for instant bread
Scavenging vehicles for parts does not equate to knowledge of how to operate those parts as a collective
The farthest you can infer between her being a scavenger of dead ships and her having professional-tier flying skills, is that she's learned to know what's monetarily valuable inside those dead ships by equating the parts' necessity for operation and purpose with how much the junkers are willing to pay for them; that and her probably finding some manuals during her junking satisfyingly explains her engineering know-how, BUT THAT DOESN'T EXPLAIN HOW SHE KNOWS HOW TO FLY IT
MAINTENANCE SKILLS =/= PILOT SKILLS
Hence why I wish the flight-sim stuff was at least briefly shown
Anyway, this is all futile
And using the force to enhance that skill is also not okay. I seem to remember someone doing the same thing in Episode IV.
I understand why people have problems with her using mind tricks so quickly, but I thought the final fight was well done.
I said to my son the other day 'what if Luke has to tap into the dark side to take down Ren in the final confrontation. Not turn but straddle the line'. He liked it.
Admiral Woofington
Member
Yeah the downside of Finn being away from Rey is that all of their scenes were pretty fun.
The upside is that Finn and Poe became bros like hilariously fast. The bond of men knows no bounds.
I wouldn't mind if in the next film he wakes up and becomes his copilot/sidekick as they do missions. Maybe he learns to fly an x-wing. Because there really isn't anybody in there to teach him shooting, he's already ok at that. I mean when he wasn't running or attempting shit he wasn't good at, he was competent really.
God I loved Finn's character. Charming motherfucker.
OricWindstar
Member
The youngling thing doesn't matter because when A New Hope was written that was not the intention. And, even if it was, the audience didn't know that and they didn't seem to care. Whether the blasts are lethal is irrelevant; he's still blocking things moving as fast as those, without his vision no less. He stumbles by getting hit a few times, but so does Rey when she runs away from Ren for the first 3/4 of the duel.
And he blows up a Death Star, which is pretty fucking crazy. Rey doesn't have an old man literally next to her, but she's has plenty of guidance throughout the film. Maz Kanata speaks to her, and she has a vision where two of the greatest Jedi who have ever lived speak to her directly. For all we know, given the craziness of that scene, she is being touched by the Force. That, combined with Kylo directly touching her with the Force and her moment of focus in the duel, makes me buy her sudden turn around.
Learning how to use the Force isn't a karate lesson. The original trilogy seemed to make it more about the personal challenges people faced than whether or not they did their Force Workout for a year. Kylo Ren is skilled and it is crazy Rey beats him, but they build his character in a way where it's not impossible because he's also battling himself in that scene.
People keep focusing on how Kylo Ren has been "trained," but not everyone takes to training the same way. He seems like he'd be a shitty student or prone to ignore teachings when giving into his extreme emotions.
don't really agree with the mary sue complaints since there was more to her character. she wasn't just a girl who was good at everything. there was more going on with her, so it was never distracting or anything.
it's hard to compare her character to Luke because this is only the first one in a trilogy.
it's hard to compare her character to Luke because this is only the first one in a trilogy.
Spiritreaver
Member
I made two posts directly related to this, but they keep getting ignored.
He is definitely struggling from his wounds in the film, bud. I made sure to look at him fighting when I saw the movie again yesterday. After taking Finn down he's shown having trouble recovering from the swings he makes. He nearly falls over 2-3 times. Takes a second to gather himself then swings again. All while Rey is just sprinting away.
I'm not exaggerating either. He is still swinging hard, but isn't completely focused. She could've won before the force moment. He was pretty out of it.
CrichtonKicks
Member
I was legitimately surprised that Finn couldn't fly. I think that's a first for a Star Wars character. I'm pretty sure flying for them is like getting a driver's license for us.
It was the central component of all Luke's fights in the OT. Or hell, all his challenges. Why did Luke make the shot that destroyed the deathstar that no one else could? Because he used the force competently, which was a result of his minute long training with Ben. In Empire, why couldn't he lift his X-wing out of the swamp? Not because of control or patience or practice, but, according to Yoda, belief. Why was he unable to beat Vader? Because he had the internal conflict that Yoda talked about in his fight in the cave. Why could Luke face Vader easily in RotJ? Because he was confident in himself as a Jedi, while he preyed on Vader's doubts. Why did Luke over power Vader? Because Vader enticed him to focus on a single objective of protecting his sister. In every single conflict you can find within him, he loses or wins depending on who his character is at the time, not how powerful he is.
Jedi's don't work on physics, and the reason Rey would have lost if she tried to use practical methods isn't because of any sense of morality. It's has nothing to do with whether Ren is a murderous piece of shit, and Han isn't a Jedi so his life is indeed more physics based, so he's not an argument (Honestly, given that Greedo was threatening him with a gun, it's a case of self defense whether he shot first or not). It's because she was clinging to her past identity that was in conflict with who she wanted to become. The moment she accepted that she would move on with her life, that's not her becoming a 'better' person, but a more complete person. That's why she won.
Kitschkraft
Member
If I could describe how I feel about his character, the word would be "anxious". As in, I just have anxiety about what the future holds for him.
Right now, I don't really have any clue what they're trying to do with him. People keep saying "Han" but I don't see it at all.
Will he continue to be second lead? I went into this expecting him to be the star of the B-Story (Rey obviously will carry the A-story). Now, I'm not sure what to think. Ending the film in a coma is such a bizarre choice.
Should have given him flight skills, and the falcon at the end.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
It's like the movie never established that Ren knew how to handle herself in a fight.
Good thing she could use the force though, or else she would have been helpless.
In all seriousness, at the last battle, I think she just overcame her fear by using the force to clear her mind. That whole fight she was fighting afraid. But once she used the force to calm down and believe in herself, she had more confidence in the skills that has allowed her to survive on her own for a decade (and more) to win against the injured and mentally unstable Obi-Ren.
Ragnorok64
Member
Wait, so are people claiming sexism because some have alleged that Rey is a Mary Sue?
bananafactory
Banned
She literally says she's a pilot.
eyeball_kid
Member
Yeah, let's get specific here. Luke's swordplay was not up to the challenge in ESB. Vader demolished Luke and could've done so without throwing furniture at him, but wanted to humiliate Luke and show him how weak he was compared to Vader. This was after Yoda, the most powerful Jedi we've seen, was teaching him for weeks or months. By some amount of time after ESB (a few years probably?) Luke has trained enough where he had finally become a true Jedi master with the lightsaber (in terms of his technique and skills with the saber) and was able to defeat Vader.
By comparison, Rey meditates on the Force for a few moments and is suddenly as technically proficient at the lightsaber as Luke was in ROTJ. The Force just doesn't work like that. It doesn't download skills to you like The Matrix.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
the planet imploded tho lol
Blargonaut
Banned
And Finn was a Stormtrooper
It stands to reason that he had some training in operating turreted weapons
It stands to reason that he had some training in operating turreted weapons
JeTmAn81
Member
I'm interested in the side stories. Darth Vader movie, Boba Fett movie, Yoda movie, etc. I'd watch these.
Apparently we're not supposed to believe her until she shows us her logged hours. Go figure.
Professor Lich
Member
Pretty hard to come back from getting gutted by a light saber, falling down a giant hole, which then the planet collapses, explodes, then becomes a star.
To be fair, Han's death really reminded me of Luke's fall in Cloud City / first meeting with Vader. So who really knows.
I guess, but I thought it was pretty funny when Mark Waid tweeted this to Max Landis:
"If you're letting your cynicism outweigh how important it is for adolescent girls to have a brave hero, your heart is made of broken glass."
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