WadiumArcadium
Member
You complain about it being too similar yet moan about a few changes to the SDs and X-Wings. Makes sense.
And it's not Coruscant. It's the Hosnian system as they say in the film.
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
You complain about it being too similar yet moan about a few changes to the SDs and X-Wings. Makes sense.
And it's not Coruscant. It's the Hosnian system as they say in the film.
The Librarian
Banned
Well this is a silly comment. Who's expecting to? Is this supposed to excuse better about the shit female characters got in the OT and the PT.
TFA treats its female characters better than any Star Wars film. To me, this makes it a much more enjoyable film than the rest of the movies.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
He went in with talking points. Came out with talking points.
Jeevesmeister
Banned
I'm not saying it's 1:1 or a remake in any way. I'm saying it's so heavy handed with the callbacks and references to the Original Trilogy that it depressingly overshadows the quality of the original content. Like, I like the idea of Kylo having a shitty fucked up lightsaber and chasing after one of the last "true" lightsabers. Finn being a turncoat stormtrooper and finding his own identity as a hero? A hell of a lot more compelling arc than Rey's. Harrison Ford was honestly the best part of the film, the most natural part as this grizzled old man past his prime.
The Librarian
Banned
Honestly, this doesn't sound like a compelling reason to me. What about your comrades?
Nah man. Talk about what you want. Who cares if a segment of people feel the need to zero in on your post because it has the words "Star Wars" in it and make it their mission to explain or convince you this movie or any others are bad.
Like Bobby said. People come in with talking points and end up looking ridiculous in the process.
Jeevesmeister
Banned
Oh christ, now OT Princess Leia is suddenly a bad character. She's not perfect but you're not giving Carrie Fisher enough credit here, she really broke the mold.
Rey's poorly delivered thematically and her arc is so depressingly derivative of Luke's that this is just pathetic.
Looks like they filmed this in daylight and then used the same effect as in Fury Road to make it night:
Shooting day for night is a technique that has been in place since the silent film era. I didn't really notice it in this movie though, unlike Fury Road where it's kinda obvious.
I feel like the response to the movie, on Gaf and amongst critics, has been overwhelmingly positive. I mean, y'all are making me think I need to see the movie again because I honestly didn't like it much at all.
Jeevesmeister
Banned
As someone who gets paid to make pretty pictures on the computer for a living, they tinker enough with the classic designs to fuck them up but fail to appreciate or improve on them in any way. The half-turbine split wing just looks bad. The new Imperial Shuttle looks generic. The bigger badder Star Destroyer fucks up a classic visual profile that defined so much in an instant. The bigger badder Death St- I mean, Starkiller - just looks boring.
Thanks for the correction. Wherever the New Republic is based out of - point stands. When you go so far to erase any of the gains or the purpose of what the heroes were going through in the Original Trilogy it makes them thematically pointless and the sequel creatively bankrupt.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I do think a second viewing (which make the editing missteps in the back half more apparent) does tend to be more rewarding than it isn't. There are a lot of little character beats/moments that become clearer on that rewatch.
Ralph McQuarrie will be saddened to hear that, I'm sure.
(wasn't on your talking points, I gather)
Ralph McQuarrie will be saddened to hear that, I'm sure.
(wasn't on your talking points, I gather)
DryEyeRelief
Member
because people hate the prequels
I would argue that George Lucas is the biggest reason why everyone likes TFA
Rey's personality pretty much stays the same yes, but she does face adversity. She just happens to get out of most of them on her own. I don't know if we can call anyone's arc compelling or not at this point. It's the entry point of a trilogy. They can either shit the bed or meet the task in upcoming movies.
That said. Sure there are callbacks, but what does it say about kids or people seeing this movie for the first time and loving the movie as a whole? The movie does it's job. Establishes the new characters and establishes a plot going forward that can go in many different directions.
I'd take focus on Rey, thank you.
You can't please everyone, that's not possible, I like Rey, at least I like Daisy and her acting way more than I like all previous SW leads. Which kinda not true, because I didn't like any before Rey lol
even if I liked movies more or less.
The way some of you post, as if you don't even like Star Wars, it's a space opera about Skywalker family, you know. It's not deep philosophical or existentialist movie about moral choices and meaning of life universe and everything.
edited:
What I mean, I was entertained and as a bonus I even liked characters, that's all I expect from SW movies.
From my point of view the Jedi are evil.
The Librarian
Banned
Name another good female character in the OT (and PT) besides Princess Leia.
Tell me how many women appeared on screen in each of the three OT movies.
Then, tell me how many of those women who did appear on screen actually spoke.
Next, tell me how many times, across all three movies, Leia was the only women in a scene.
Explain to me how Leia having to be rescued in IV puts her in a position of empowerment.
Point out to me how Leia *wasnt* harassed in Empire. Note how often Han tells her one thing even though Leia is telling him another.
What's the first thing Lando says to Leia in Empire?
Who was put in a gold bikini in RotJ?
In TMP, who was given a boring personality? And shoved to the side for a little boy even though she was more relevant to the plot?
In AotC, how many times was Padme the only woman in a scene? How many women spoke besides her? Ask these same questions for TMP and RotS.
Who spent the majority of RotS sitting around and being pregnant?
I said *treated* like shit. The first six Star Wars films often pretended like women didn't exist. Which is shitty.
AnotherDayAnotherDollar
Banned
I know one was made in the 70's-80s and the other in the early 2000s and Samuel L. Jackson was in it. I know the latter is the prequel trilogy.
DryEyeRelief
Member
So would you like Rey less if she were a he instead?
Don't even get me started! My biggest complaint of the PT. Is how they handled Anakin's "turn".
He kills Windu, and clearly shows remorse and regret. Then not a 2nd later he's on his knees agreeing with EVERYTHING Palpatine is saying.
"The Jedi have betrayed the republic"-Palpatine
"I agree master"-Anakin.
Like WTF??!
funny that you bring it up, because I entertained this thought more than once. Not evil like the dark side is evil, but rather rigid in religious way and being blind to many things because of that. As powerful as they are and need some code to keep that power in check, them being more religious order than anything is probably a mistake and weakens them. Or maybe it is the best way, who knows. They kinda had thousands of years to find the best way to go about it.
edited: OTOH them being nearly extinct shows that their way wasn't all that good.
The Librarian
Banned
Yes.
I know it does and I'm not saying that I dislike any form of criticism because that'd be just ignorant.
But man, the hyperbole and hell-or-highwater thrashing is getting ridiculous around these parts.
For a Star Wars movie.
funkystudent
Member
I am actually watching ep3 right now and just saw that and yeah. Your spot on.
I mean that turn should be the crux of these movies and in the end it just kind of happens. Dude just goes from remorseful to kid killer in a scene.
It's a forum. Both sides who love or who hate the movie will find their niche and more or less create talking points about why they loved or hated it.
That in turn will get filtered around in various discussions.
The Elite
BOSS
I am always shocked when I read impressions from someone who knows that little about Star Wars. I am not mocking you at all, it's just a fascination since pretty much everyone I know, even those who don't like the films, know the details you didn't. It's fun reading impressions from someone discovering this stuff for the first time.
SolicitorPirate
Member
Jesus fucking christ what am I reading
TheSadRanger
Banned
You have some points Librarian but on the other hand Leia was ordering dudes around in Echo Base on Hoth. She was a high ranking officer in the RA.
And while she did wear a gold bikini in RotJ while in Jabba's captivity, she also led a strike team on Endor to take down the shield generator.
I mean I get what your saying, but I think Leia deserves a bit more credit than that.
And while she did wear a gold bikini in RotJ while in Jabba's captivity, she also led a strike team on Endor to take down the shield generator.
I mean I get what your saying, but I think Leia deserves a bit more credit than that.
The Librarian
Banned
Your standards are too low.
Nostremitus
Member
Don't forget she took command of her own rescue mission in ANH and strangled the shit out of the guy who put her in the gold bikini in RoTJ.
Edit: also, dialog in RoTJ stated that Leia was supposed to learn to use the force. She is, after all, just as force sensitive as Luke. I'd say that not having Leia be a force user in TFA was a huge step back in that regard. Like, WTF, Luke decided it was a boys club and wouldn't teach her?
Nah I saw the gradual descent. But that scene was just odd to me. He shows remorse and regret for killing Mace. Then like not even a minute later he's bowing and agreeing to this whole plot of the Jedi betraying the republic. When he's the one who ran and told Mace about Palptine being the Sith Lord.
The Librarian
Banned
Wow that's really empowering!!!!!
SolicitorPirate
Member
You can spin that as a positive only once Luke has to strangle a space gangster while dressed in a gold thong.
She definitely deserves more credit than he gave her. Having recently rewatched the OT I think Leia kicks ass basically from the start. Only real fucked up thing was the slave outfit but I don't think that negates how cool of a character she is otherwise. In fact, I think Leia is easily the best character in ANH. Luke and Han still feel a little flat in that one but she shows personality from the get go. She's really great in ESB too. ROTJ is sadly really just Luke's show tho.
EatinOlives
Member
Yeah this is getting annoying. The amount of incessant questions demanding answers to pointless details about things not worth discussing strikes me as nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking. It's apparently not enough to clearly establish Rey as a character competent in flying and knowledgeable of machinery, there's people scrutinizing to the very last detail whether or not it was plausible to pull things off. They want this additional layer of detail and explanation that simply isn't there. By what measure is it too impossible to have Rey commandeer the Falcon? It's not like we have (or ever will have) an objective quantifiable measure of her skill level vs. what is required to fly the Falcon in the way she did. It's a stubborn refusal to suspend their disbelief, but that's really not the fault of the film. The Star Wars franchise always has and always will gloss over background detailed and skill level of various elements to keep the movie going forward and let the watcher fill in the blanks. In the few instances where they elaborated on things (e.g. midichlorians), they were criticized precisely for being needless explanations nobody cares about.
The Librarian
Banned
*chuckles*
this with Luke saying "I'm your mother" to Rey are now my two favourite things that came from this discussion
It just occurred to me that this thread is a nightmare for newcomers to series as it doesn't discuss tFA on its merits but only how it compares to the rest of SW.
Nostremitus
Member
Yeah, let's start using false equivalencies while complaining about spin.
I guess the entire metaphor of the subjugated woman taking control of her own life went over your head... You know, the pretty bird in the cage...
It was a metaphor in the form of film. I'm sorry you can't look deeper than costumes.
funkystudent
Member
I get why he would reject the jedi and join the sith but I think going full kid killing mass murdering tool of the emporor was a bit much.
Like..... he could have done something bad but a tad less genocidal and it would still work
The Librarian
Banned
Your metaphor isn't decent if it wouldn't exist if your movies had treated women better.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
The whole reason she was put in the cage was basic titillation, though.
Yes, Leia choking the testicle to death was awesome, and her being in control of her own liberation put a big fat exclamation point on her awesomeosity in the opening of the film. But they put her in that bikini because they wanted to "soften her up" from the "space bitch" she was in Empire (which is where the character was legitimately at her best), and that was the way they went about it. "Uh... put her in a bikini and chain her to a gangster."
Also, once she liberates herself, she crashes a speeder-bike, and is feted by a bunch of teddy bears, none of whom actually pay attention to her when she tells them not to eat her friends. Then she gets shot during the actual assault on the base (and is groped onscreen)
Her character wasn't treated very well in Jedi, and the fact the character at her weakest (literally stripped half naked and chained to a drooling ballsack) became THE primary image of her for the past 20 years is pretty annoying/irritating. That she escaped the subjugation in the film is one thing. That the celebration of the character tends to zero back in on her in subjugation is a problem. That the film doesn't actually reward her much for freeing herself afterward is also a problem.
If I had to choose between the problems with Leia in Jedi and the problems with Rey in The Force Awakens, I'm taking Rey in a fuckin' heartbeat, every time.
Leia was such a throwaway character in Jedi.
exactly! Why we believe that there is Force in the first place, because we choose so!
And overexplaining stuff makes movies boring, they should show things instead of explaining, they show us what Rey can do and even tell us, why would we need anything else. All else is our choice, if we choose not to believe, no amount of explaining will change that.
Nostremitus
Member
Are we talking in film or behind the scenes?
If in film, I don't know what the hell you're talking about and wonder if you've actually watched them without a jaded filter. You can view anything as a negative if thats all you're looking for.
Behind the scenes and some of the reasons the filmmakers did things, completely deplorable and I agree.
Good Job Bob
Member
I'm too excited to see what Rian Johnson does with Episode 8. If it is anything less than in contention with ESB for best Star Wars film, I'll be disappointed.
I think you and Bobby were typing at the same time, but he gave a good explanation a few posts above.
The Librarian
Banned
My jaded filter is my experience of living as a woman in the United States.
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