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[ThatCrazyGuy]

That Vader/Luke fight was good because of the emotinal build up, not the choreography. It thought alot of it in the ot was bad.

Flashy choreography doesn't have ro mean emotionless. The fights in crouching tiger were wire-fu to hell, but they were awesome. Tons of emotion behind everything and the build ups and framing.

I personally like the prequel fights. They went overboard with to much balled a good amount of times with no feeling of weight. but i liked the flash. It could had been reeled in some cases of course.

The lack of emotional weight on theae things I put on lucas. The build ups. The emotion. I do agree, obi vs maul could had more anger at the end.

The tfa forest fight was pretty good i thought. Part of me wanted more flash, but it felt exciting and not simple and slow. I dont know why people didnt get him punching his own side. He got shot there and they show the blood dripping to the snow the first time he does it.

 

[PeskyToaster]

Yeah the TFA lightsaber fight is really fantastic and gorgeous looking as well. The snowy forest is a great setting.

 

[DragonSworne]

I think ESB is only good in retrospect. It really doesn't stand on it's own. Because of tgat, I can't agree with people saying it's the best star wars movie.

 

[KingSnake]

Lol please get a grip. I couldn't give a crap who helms the projects. I was excited about what JJ would do after the Star Wars reboot, I thought he could get that Star Wars Vibe, turns out I was wrong. It was a mediocre film. You can enjoy it without shitting on other peoples opinions. If TFA is so great it will stand up on its own without the crap from its fans.

I find it interesting that you recognized yourself in my comment.

I'm not shitting on other people's opinions, I'm just expressing my own opinion about a behavioral pattern.

 

[The Chef]

the over the top ones.... TPM and ROTS.... both I agree are over the top and a little too long but JJ should have found a middle ground and had the ending duel in the forest be a little longer... I love JJ's realness in his films IM3 is still my favorite of all the IM movies...but he fucked up alot of stuff in this one playing it too safe. He was more than likely given less control over the film than his other ones.

plus just because the second trilogy was bad, the context of the fights matters also... not just if its more real and less choreographed...its not the best because he is fighting to untrained fighters that haven't even dueled before, and he still doesn't kill them in seconds because he himself isn't fully trained... plus even though he was doing for adrenaline bro pounding his wound was funny to me...

Im seriously not trying to pick on you here but you are just plain wrong here.
You're not understanding that JJ chose this fighting style intentionally, he was in no way "playing it safe". He specifically did not want highly choreographed fighting.

But hey if you like the battles in the earlier films thats cool but you should just understand that the fighting in TFA was done with purpose as well.

 

[Interfectum]

I think ESB is only good in retrospect. It really doesn't stand on it's own. Because of tgat, I can't agree with people saying it's the best star wars movie.

I'm not sure why that matters considering it's part of a trilogy. If the main criteria for a movie is "it needs to stand on it's own" then you can basically write off any second or third parts of any trilogy.

 

[Veelk]

I cared about Alderaan because it is a pragmatic inconvenience. We are experiencing these stories through the protagonists. Loss of life just by itself isn't enough. We have to see how it affects our heroes. I don't feel Hosnian's destruction really affected our heroes' goals.

The protagonists didn't just care because it was inconvenient either. Leia cared out of a sense of empathy, as did Obiwan. Luke sensed Obiwan's distress and immediately went to try and comfort him, even though he didn't know anything that happened. Honestly, all nearly all stories are about empathy when you get down to it. But fine, if you only want to be a robot about it, then the Hosian system serves the same function, because now the First Order has a giant superweapon that are going to kill the protagonists with if they don't stop them. Personally, it's not really good for a story to frame a genocide as nothing more than a practical inconvenience.

The film gives you both reasons to care, and it's just up to you to choose whether you want to care about that or not, but the reasons are there.

 

[Zabka]

Indeed I did. Though it was a much needed edit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfQBdRcgizc

I loaded this up yesterday just to click through it but I ended up watching the entire thing. It was pretty damn good. Removing the announcer from the pod race made it way better.

 

[Dash27]

Man im afraid you're missing the entire point.
You may have thought those were epic lightsaber fights in the earlier films but ultimately they were completely void of any real emotion. Its no longer a brutal real emotional fight when they are doing 20 hit combos in a perfectly choriographed fight sequence. Its just not right.

Take for example this fight with Luke and Vader:

This is as basic as it gets but its so powerful. You can feel the emotion from Luke being SO angry and just wailing on Vader. Its perfect.

^ This guy gets it. The Luke vrs Vader fight was easily my favorite because of the raw energy and meaning behind it. To that end TFA fights were very good although not as good.

I didn't hate the Darth Maul fight scenes. I liked for example the scenes of Maul pacing and Qui Gon meditating when they were forced to be separated. But there was no "ramping things up" to it at all, it was just emotionless.

 

[KingSnake]

Who does pirouettes in a good tense saber fight? (except for when one wants to turn around and run)

 

[Mendax]

Who does pirouettes in a good tense saber fight? (except for when one wants to turn around and run)

while not called pirouettes this is an actual technique in martial arts

 

[Aiii]

while not called pirouettes this is an actual technique in martial arts

True, but in almost every case in the PT, as illustrated in some of the GIF's above, they without fail left the twirling person completely exposed to their opponents.

In most of them, all the other guy would have had to do was extend his lightsaber by a few cm's and he would have cut the others spinal cord straight in half without a problem.

 

[heliosRAzi]

The protagonists didn't just care because it was inconvenient either. Leia cared out of a sense of empathy, as did Obiwan.

Which is great! They are our in to Alderaan.

This is a big moment in ANH. It is the big turning point, where the heroes have to reassess their goals. They got the Death Star plans there too late and now, because of that, billions of lives were lost. Leia lost her family.

With Hosnian... political upheaval, I guess? They're offsetting that to the next movie, I suppose. Hosnian had nothing to do with the story up until that point except providing the ghost fleet.

Honestly, all nearly all stories are about empathy when you get down to it. But fine, if you only want to be a robot about it, then the Hosian system serves the same function, because now the First Order has a giant superweapon that are going to kill the protagonists with if they don't stop them.

I'm not being a robot about it; I just want more of a reason to care besides great loss of life. I want to care about it. The moment could've been punchier if one of the main characters was from there or whatever. That's all I'm saying.

The Resistance now knows that the First Order has a super weapon. That's great, but they were in no immediate danger--the FO didn't know where their base was. It throws the political climate into chaos, but they don't show that and didn't even set it up.

The movie did not give me a reason to care.

 

[KingSnake]

while not called pirouettes this is an actual technique in martial arts

Not with swords, as far as I remember. Or not exposed like this at least. The risk of getting a cut in your back and end up like Finn is too big.

 

[Imperfected]

guiz no these fights are awful nobody even does a flip

 

[Veelk]

While I agreed with the criticism that the PT fights don't adequately reflect the narrative state of the characters, the problem was never the choreography for me. I mean, yeah, it isn't in any sense like a real fight, but if I decided that mattered, I'd have to dispense with so many awesome wushu flicks.

Which is great! They are our in to Alderaan

No, you've clearly established you don't care about Alderaan. They're not your 'in' to alderaan, because Alderaan doesn't have an in that doesn't involve caring about Alderaan itself.

There are people who did care about Alderaan, as a simple matter of empathy toward loss of life, but you're clearly not one of them.

I'm not being a robot about it; I just want more of a reason to care besides great loss of life. I want to care about it.

Look, Pinocchio, you are very much being a robot about it. It's great you want to be a real boy, but your kind of digging yourself in deeper by claiming you need to see how it affects you or your characters personally in order to care about the loss of human life.

Which, btw, isn't a huge reflection on your character. I don't care about either Alderaan or the Hosian system because it didn't humanize either place enough for me. Both ANH and TFA are exploitative about it. If you want to see a genocide done right, off the top of my head, check out FMA's Ishval Massacre. But having an obstacle placed before you is something very different from having empathy for another human being. If you want to have empathy, but are unable to because a loss of life is only meaningful to you if it affects you directly, then you need some fairy magic to get you to be a real boy at long last.

 

[neoism]

Honestly, and I'm not excusing TFA, but I think the next two movies are going to be filled with duels and lightsabers that I believe this film was more ment to introduce characters than to get right into dueling. If anything having lightsabers in this movie was a little forced.

I agree the next two will have jedi vs jedi not two people thats never saber-dueled before VS a somewhat decent fighter... they will be longer and have more choreography...coupled with the realism fro mthis one it will be better... but this fight was too QUICK even though Ren was better fighter than the other and it made sense....
Like I said before a few pages back this movie was WAY to breezy and the third act even more soo... its like after Han died... JJ tried to end as quick as possible...
but ima end here... opinions and stuff....

movie ranks
ROTJ leia..... ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°
ESB yoda
ANH=TFA.... hopefully there will be a directors cut this movie should have been longer.
ROTS "I have the high ground" was bad but I still like this one...
AOTC I even walked out kind of disappointed... DAT Wood!
TPM....still I fucking love the ending duel.... nostalgia or not....

 

[Jonm1010]

While I agreed with the criticism that the PT fights don't adequately reflect the narrative state of the characters, the problem was never the choreography for me. I mean, yeah, it isn't in any sense like a real fight, but if I decided that mattered, I'd have to dispense with so many awesome wushu flicks.

I don't think overly choreographed is always bad. I mean look at The Matrix or The Raid. It's when the film begins to insert completely illogical(within its own constraints) aspects to a fight. Like others have mentioned, the twirling, the dancing, the sword swipes that serve no purpose and the lack of emotional carry over or build up.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

TFA duel didn't do anything for me because there was no emotional investment in the duel. Ren was fighting simply not to die. These characters didn't even know each other. One should have died the moment he picked up the saber and the other should have right after. ESB and RotJ had far more emotionally invested characters with a lot more subtext to the duels. I don't care if its choreographed to extreme degree more than whats going on inside and outside of the characters themselves.

That makes all of the prequel duels meaningless. Original Trilogy weren't well choreographed but there was a lot of meaning to each one. TFA was somewhere in between the two.

Kylo Ren was angry with Rey because she escaped his interrogation chamber, and he was ordered to capture her by Snoke. Rey was fuelled by anguish because Han Solo was the one father figure she'd had, and he was murdered in front of her by his own kin. There's plenty going on between these two. Certainly a lot more than fucking Obi-Wan vs. Maul, or Obi-Wan & Anakin vs. Dooku.

 

[KingSnake]

Kylo Ren was angry with Rey because she escaped his interrogation chamber, and he was ordered to capture her by Snoke. Rey was fuelled by anguish because Han Solo was the one father figure she'd had, and he was murdered in front of her by his own kin. There's plenty going on between these two. Certainly a lot more than fucking Obi-Wan vs. Maul, or Obi-Wan & Anakin vs. Dooku.

And Finn was angry because Kylo just threw Rey against a tree. And then Rey also saw that Kylo killed or badly wounded Finn. Plenty of feelings flying around in that battle. Plus it was a matter of survival for both Finn and Rey.

 

[Atraveller]

Don't forget Kylo was toying with Finn.

 

[The Librarian]

And Finn was angry because Kylo just threw Rey against a tree. And then Rey also saw that Kylo killed or badly wounded Finn. Plenty of feelings flying around in that battle.

And Ben was pissed with Finn for betraying the FO. And Ben was upset that they had his grandfather's lightsaber.

Of course, the highlight of the fight was Rey vs. Ben. There was a rivalry between the two, well, mostly coming from Ben's side, because Rey had beat him with his mind probe.

 

[Interfectum]

And Finn was angry because Kylo just threw Rey against a tree. And then Rey also saw that Kylo killed or badly wounded Finn. Plenty of feelings flying around in that battle. Plus it was a matter of survival for both Finn and Rey.

Finn was also disgusted by Kylo due to him ordering the execution of all those people in the beginning of the film. Kylo even remembered him from that scene later on.

 

[The Librarian]

And Finn was angry because Kylo just threw Rey against a tree. And then Rey also saw that Kylo killed or badly wounded Finn. Plenty of feelings flying around in that battle. Plus it was a matter of survival for both Finn and Rey.

Well, it wasn't so much of a matter of survival with Rey at that moment, given that Ben was ordered to take her alive, but it was really important for Rey to not let that happen, obviously.

 

[KingSnake]

And Kylo was pissed with Finn for betraying the FO. And Ben was upset that they had his grandfather's lightsaber.

Finn was also disgusted by Kylo due to him ordering the execution of all those people in the beginning of the film. Kylo even remembered him from that scene later on.

Right. I like this. This is how a good build up for characters looks like, when there are so many connections and conflicts to draw among the characters by the end of the movie.

Edit:

Well, it wasn't so much of a matter of survival with Rey at that moment, given that Ben was ordered to take her alive, but it was really important for Rey to not let that happen, obviously.

Rey didn't know that though. After Kylo killed his dad she could assume the worst.

 

[The Librarian]

That's true!

 

[Einchy]

Indeed I did. Though it was a much needed edit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfQBdRcgizc

So TFA is worse than Episode I even though Episode I is so bad that you had to watch an edit that removes 46 minutes from the movie?

lol wut

 

[Imperfected]

So, on a serious note with regard to Wushu and the PT:

The choreography isn't necessarily the problem, but if you want to do kung fu choreography you either need to do interesting framing and cinematography to make it work (fun shot angles during near-misses, perspective shots, etc.), or it needs to be almost entirely done in a single shot with practical effects (to highlight how good the actual choreography is).

Aside from the final Anakin vs. Obi-Wan fight the prequel duels are shot almost entirely flat-angled. There are tons of cuts, but none of them are covered with interesting or dynamic changes in perspective to add to the sense of energy and speed. Due to being shot almost entirely on green-screen backgrounds with digital effects inserted, none of them could really showcase the physical choreography well at all.

The choreography might be fine (if you're into that sort of fight scene), but the directing and cinematography are aggressively incompetent. That makes them terrible fight scenes.

 

[Escape Goat]

Kylo Ren was angry with Rey because she escaped his interrogation chamber, and he was ordered to capture her by Snoke. Rey was fuelled by anguish because Han Solo was the one father figure she'd had, and he was murdered in front of her by his own kin. There's plenty going on between these two. Certainly a lot more than fucking Obi-Wan vs. Maul, or Obi-Wan & Anakin vs. Dooku.

There are reasons these two are fighting. But I, as the audience, didnt feel any of it. Rey thought a lot about Han but theres no room for her to internalize her loss and bring the audience into her grief. Shes literally running for her life right after Hans death. We only really the emotional payout from Chewie.

I really didnt get Rens motivations for being evil other than hes just evil. Rens conflict wasnt with Rey. It was with Snoke. Rey and Ren dont know each other. Theres no personal conflict like Luke and Vaders. Or even Anakin and Obi Wan.

 

[Arthea]

Aside from being slightly too short, lightsaber fights in tFA were really nice, I don't see how anybody can hate those, really how? why? for what purpose?

 

[Shaanyboi]

So, on a serious note with regard to Wushu and the PT:

The choreography isn't necessarily the problem, but if you want to do kung fu choreography you either need to do interesting framing and cinematography to make it work (fun shot angles during near-misses, perspective shots, etc.), or it needs to be almost entirely done in a single shot with practical effects (to highlight how good the actual choreography is).

Aside from the final Anakin vs. Obi-Wan fight the prequel duels are shot almost entirely flat-angled. There are tons of cuts, but none of them are covered with interesting or dynamic changes in perspective to add to the sense of energy and speed. Due to being shot almost entirely on green-screen backgrounds with digital effects inserted, none of them could really showcase the physical choreography well at all.

The choreography might be fine (if you're into that sort of fight scene), but the directing and cinematography are aggressively incompetent. That makes them terrible fight scenes.

That could be levied against the entirely of the prequels. They're pretty horribly staged, and not just in the fights.

 

[Atraveller]

Aside from being slightly too short, lightsaber fights in tFA were really nice, I don't see how anybody can hate those, really how? why? for what purpose?

Really can't wait to see trained Ren and Rey fight in ep.8!

 

[Shuggananas]

Really can't wait to see trained Ren and Rey fight in ep.8!

Don't think that's happening before 9 imo

 

[Arthea]

There was another thing that I was going to talk back when we had vader's redemption discussion but had to go to sleep then, so I'm just getting back to it now.

If Vader is redeemed and a force ghost to boot (OK, I know it's not if, but for me it is), how come he didn't appeared to Kylo to dissuade him from taking a path he took and falsely following in grandfather's steps. Isn't that odd at least a little? Or he did appear and that's why Kylo joined the dark side, what's even more strange.

Really can't wait to see trained Ren and Rey fight in ep.8!

yeah, I can't wait to see VIII in general
waiting is so hard, and after that well have to wait even more to see a conclusion.

 

[Escape Goat]

There was another thing that I was going to talk back when we had vader's redemption discussion but had to go to sleep then, so I'm just getting back to it now.

If Vader is redeemed and a force ghost to boot (OK, I know it's not if, but for me it is), how come he didn't appeared to Kylo to dissuade him from taking a path he took and falsely following in grandfather's steps. Isn't that odd at least a little? Or he did appear and that's why Kylo joined the dark side, what's even more strange.

Probably a Light side only ability.

 

[Grover Cleveland]

Probably a Light side only ability.

Which? Anakin appearing as a ghost / or Kylo seeing him?

 

[GuitarAtomik]

There was another thing that I was going to talk back when we had vader's redemption discussion but had to go to sleep then, so I'm just getting back to it now.

If Vader is redeemed and a force ghost to boot (OK, I know it's not if, but for me it is), how come he didn't appeared to Kylo to dissuade him from taking a path he took and falsely following in grandfather's steps. Isn't that odd at least a little? Or he did appear and that's why Kylo joined the dark side, what's even more strange.

I don't think force ghosts can be seen by everyone. At the end of Jedi, it seemed like only Luke (and maybe Leia) could see Anakin, Yoda, and Obi-wan. I'd bet you'd have to be attuned to the light side to see force ghosts at all.

 

[Atraveller]

Don't think that's happening before 9 imo

Why do you think that?

 

[Escape Goat]

Which? Anakin appearing as a ghost / or Kylo seeing him?

Kylo seeing him. Seems like something youd need to be calm/one with the Force and all that in order to hear/see Force ghosts.

 

[Vyer]

I was fully invested in the last fight. It certainly seemed like most people in the showings I went to. The lightsaber jump to Rey especially got the first theater I saw it in hyped. It happening right after the loss of Han was a good move.

Didn't hurt that it was a great looking scene.

 

[Arthea]

wait, but that doesn't make sense, we all agree that he is probably strong in force and he didn't join dark side right away, I'm not talking about now, I'm talking when he was a kid or in Luke's school.

 

[The Librarian]

I was fully invested in the last fight. It certainly seemed like most people in the showings I went to. The lightsaber jump to Rey especially got the first theater I saw it in hyped. It happening right after the loss of Han was a good move.

Didn't hurt that it was a great looking scene.

Rey grabbing the lightsaber is the best moment in the SW franchise.

 

[Yoshichan]

During the exam today, I mentioned a quote from Yoda.

I hope I make it.

 

[KingSnake]

Don't think that's happening before 9 imo

For Kylo and Rey not to fight in Episode VIII there must be at least one of the following fights Snoke vs. Kylo, Snoke vs. Luke, Kylo vs. Luke. If not two. Kylo killing both Snoke and Luke would be something. Done right could make a great dark Episode VIII: The Dark Knight.

 

[Escape Goat]

wait, but that doesn't make sense, we all agree that he is probably strong in force and he didn't join dark side right away, I'm not talking about now, I'm talking when he was a kid or in Luke's school.

It was said Ren was always troubled. He might not have ever been skilled at perceiving such things.

 

[Shuggananas]

Why do you think that?

I don't know I feel like Rey and Ren will get less action for 8, perfectioning their formation, while other people take the actual fight (Finn ? Poe ? Others ?), there's also Del Toro announced for 8 (I'm not sure ?) so he could play a main villain role maybe. Don't know.

 

[Nuova]

Rey grabbing the lightsaber is the best moment in the SW franchise.

Wrong.

 

[Future PhaZe]

Man im afraid you're missing the entire point.
You may have thought those were epic lightsaber fights in the earlier films but ultimately they were completely void of any real emotion. Its no longer a brutal real emotional fight when they are doing 20 hit combos in a perfectly choriographed fight sequence. Its just not right.

Take for example this fight with Luke and Vader:

This is as basic as it gets but its so powerful. You can feel the emotion from Luke being SO angry and just wailing on Vader. Its perfect.

Then you have Obi Wan vs Darth Maul MOMENTS after Qui gon jin is KILLED and you get this ballet.

Its emotionless and obnoxious.
So again, I think you're missing the point and purpose of the fighting style in TFA.



And the fact you dont get why he was doing this either tells me a lot.

This is really dumb. The Obi-Wan vs Maul fight was about as angry as we've ever seen Obi-Wan in the entire series of films and was a powerful fight.

 

[Halcyon]

This is really dumb. The Obi-Wan vs Maul fight was about as angry as we've ever seen Obi-Wan in the entire series of films and was a powerful fight.

Yea I hate the prequels as much as anyone, but the only good part of that fight was the power going back and forth in that little room with Maul and Quigon, then Obi-Wan screaming in anger and then Jumping into him with all sorts of speed.

That section was the best part of the movie.

 

[Majestad]

I'm way late ttp, but is there any origin story to Kylo Ren?