Luke goes from completely untrained to beating Darth Vader in under 2 years, and does it almost entirely on his own since his combined amount of training with Kenobi and Yoda was a few days. He learns how to do the Jedi Mind Trick and Force Choke on his own as well since he learns that between Empire and ROTJ, and didn't visit Yoda between movies either.
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
Luke goes from completely untrained to beating Darth Vader in under 2 years, and does it almost entirely on his own since his combined amount of training with Kenobi and Yoda was a few days. He learns how to do the Jedi Mind Trick and Force Choke on his own as well since he learns that between Empire and ROTJ, and didn't visit Yoda between movies either.
God Dayumm
Banned
The only way Rey can make sense is that they reveal her midichlorian count
The Librarian
Banned
dude this is pretty apparent from the film that this is not the case
DragonSworne
Banned
Do yourself a favor and forget about the presequels. They are all nonsense and got the force completely wrong.
Stick to orginal trilogy in regards to the force and Yoda's teaching.
Interfectum
Member
Unlike Jedi toddlers who've been coddled at an academy for their life, Rey has been living in shit since the age of 5 (?). She's had to scavenge and survive (fight, learn a trade, etc) on her own most her life. That combined with her being force sensitive makes sense for how her character arc has played out so far, IMO. She probably has more life experience than even Kylo.
Been debated ad naseum in the previous pages and other threads, but I will say I disagree with you.
What we have here are 2 trilogies the PT and OT which have very, very different sets of standards as to what constitutes a Jedi or being able to proficiently use the force.
Which side of the fence you fall on, depends entirely on which trilogy you want to pick from to get your definition of a Jedi.
The toddler until 30s is what the PT gave us.
The OT gave us Luke doing some pretty fucking amazing things without much of any formal training at all. And even what little training he got as the series moved on, was nothing like what the PT told us was needed to become a Jedi.
Its the ultimate form of moving the goal posts and it really is one person's fault - George Lucas.
DragonSworne
Banned
Also, Jedi academy teaches you how to be a Jedi, not how to use the force. You can learn to use the force in literally seconds as seen in the movies.
This isn't even an exaggeration either. Obi-Wan puts a blindfold on Luke, tells him one line about how a Jedi lets the Force flow through him, and suddenly Luke is blocking shots blindfolded.
heliosRAzi
Banned
I think this conversation is going to be the crux of the movie for years down the line, unfortunately, like MoS's destruction issues. It won't matter how many times it's had, how many arguments are brought up, it'll be the cat that comes back.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Is it starting to look like the Jedi's rule for only training prospective knights when they are super young is sort of short sighted considering Vader, Luke and now Rey all picked it up fairly quickly and later in their lives?
PeskyToaster
Member
You don't have to have training to use the force. Anakin Skywalker is talked about because he's the only human who can podrace, because of the force, and he's nine at the time.
All you have to do is let it in.
All you have to do is let it in.
CharmingCharlie
Member
At no point in this film do we see Rey as a Jedi Knight. She doesn't come anywhere near as skilled as a Jedi Knight even at the very end of the film when she beats a badly shaken, injured and mentally unstable Kylo Ren.
She was fighting worse than Luke did in the Cloud Base the only reason she beat Kylo is because of his injuries, his cockiness and she had the element of surprise when she was able to briefly tap into the force. That doesn't make her a Jedi Knight it makes her a person that can tap into the force and be damn lucky with it.
This is only true if you think the PT dod a better job portraying Jedi and Jedi training than the OT. Otherwise, she is definitely gifted, is only beginning to use the force, and beat an injured villain who was specifically NOT trying to kill her.
It's been a dumb, contradictory idea since it was introduced in Phantom Menace and they said freaking baby Anakin was too old. Whether it's an intentionally dumb idea that the Jedi held to or is just a dumb story idea from conception is harder to discern.
the_log_ride
Member
Isn't this rule more to aid in making sure trainees don't question their superiors? Get 'em while they're young so it's all they know. Akin to being raised with religion.
As was said earlier, being a Jedi and being able to use the Force are not the same thing.
funkystudent
Member
Is it true the storm trooper Rey mind controls to escape the torture room is Daniel Craig?
I always assumed the concerns over the lateness of development risked having them turn over to the dark side and had little to do with amassing skill.
Kitschkraft
Member
tauroxd
Member
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Future PhaZe
Member
am i the only one who never saw the big deal about midichlorians
they are just a scientific way of identifying force sensitives--their existence doesn't do anything to really demystify the force in any way imo
they are just a scientific way of identifying force sensitives--their existence doesn't do anything to really demystify the force in any way imo
God Dayumm
Banned
This idea was introduced since ESB, when yoda said luke was too old for training
Yoda denying Luke training because Luke is in his early 20s makes way more sense than saying someone who's 6 is too old for training.
Luke in ESB being too old is quite a different idea than Anakin in TPM being too old.
professor_t
Member
Look definitely looked somewhat disturbed during the final reveal. It may simply have been bad acting, but I doubt it.
It wasn't what I was expecting - "wise, in command Jedi master" was what I had hoped for - but I'm curious to see where they go with it.
The look was one of "I hate that it has come to this" kinda thing.
DragonSworne
Banned
Which makes sense since Luke is of adult age (?). But that doesn't mean you need to be 5 to learn the force. George fucked up.
The only explanation out of it is that Jedi's need to learn a lot of thinks besides just using the force, like science, politics, history, math, religion, personal conduct, etc. Learning to use the force is a tiny part of being a Jedi.
Absolutely.
People need to pay attention to what the Force actually is and how it works within this universe. It's not a level up RPG.
That's fair for her to say and she should not want that. But there is a resemblance. All I'm saying.
heliosRAzi
Banned
DragonSworne
Banned
Grover Cleveland
Member
It's a dumb idea the Jedi held onto.
Like no attachments, like no compassion, basically all of the dumb tenants the Jedi Order held to pre-Empire were shown to convey to the viewer that the Order being so rigid and dogmatic led to their demise. They were so far up their own asses and devoted to a completely arbitrary and nonsensical Code that they couldn't even see the creep manufacturing their demise under their own noses.
The Jedi being who they are in the prequels is neither unintentional nor is it bad storytelling on the part of Lucas. Nor is it unintentional that of the 3 Jedi we see in the Original Trilogy (Ben, Luke, Yoda), the one who held attachments (choosing to save Han rather than complete his training, attempting to redeem his father) and compassion, basically rejecting all of the bullshit from the old Order was the one to survive.
I'm fairly certain that Anakin initially being denied training was Lucas trying to make some kind of parallel to Luke being denied training as well, because Lucas ran out of original ideas about 30 years ago
Escape Goat
Member
Theres a lot going on in Hamil's eyes in that scene. I felt a lot going on in him. I think it was a lot of fear. Fear that he is faced with the prospect of training another student who goes evil. But also stuff we dont know about yet.
Completely unearned.
CharmingCharlie
Member
Yup it's true (said in a Han Solo voice). He originally denied it but now it is pretty much confirmed he is the Rey mind controlled storm trooper. Apparently he did it for shits and giggles.
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/17/daniel-craig-makes-cameo-star-wars-force-awakens
Randolph Freelander
Member
They just want to get them before they've formed attachments, as they feel those are paths to the dark side. Vader fell because of attachments first to his mother and then Padme. Vader and Palpatine played on Luke's attachment to his friends and, specifically, Leia.
Agreed, on top of him seeing his father's lightsaber again. That probably made him quite emotional as well.
Vincent Alexander
Member
Yeah. It had to do with attachments to loved ones. They were afraid if they train someone too old who has a mother then the fear of loss might lead one to dark side. It is pretty silly, but I think Luke is somehow a representation of how the Jedi have been wrong all along, and one shouldn't deny his emotions. I think...
Damn. Beaten.
LegendofLex
Member
Luke's victory in ROTJ is straight-up achieved by him casting aside his own personal agenda to accept whatever fate has in store, either the Emperor killing him or his father deciding to save him. Literally right before making that choice he was almost pushed over the edge because his daddy threatened to go after his sister, the same dilemma Anakin faced in ROTS with the same stakes.
Luke is more of a manifestation of the kind of love Jedi are supposed to show according to the prequels, which is unconditional love and self-sacrifice rather than possessiveness and attachment.
@ everyone who wants Luke to die by the end of the trilogy
We've already seen the obligatory death/sacrifice.
She was familiar with the myths of the Jedi, plus in the OT the Jedi Mind Trick was known by enough people that even Jabba the Hutt knew about it. I think it's entirely plausible that Rey heard about the Jedi ability to control the weak minded.
We've already seen the obligatory death/sacrifice.
She was familiar with the myths of the Jedi, plus in the OT the Jedi Mind Trick was known by enough people that even Jabba the Hutt knew about it. I think it's entirely plausible that Rey heard about the Jedi ability to control the weak minded.
You know the only part of Rey's power I'm not a fan of us her knowing how to Jedi mind trick. Unless it was a story she heard of Jedi doing... I think it's kinda dumb she knew it was possible. Same with the force pull to a lesser extent.
Think they should have made her discovering her powers hinted at and more gradual.
Think they should have made her discovering her powers hinted at and more gradual.
AgentChris
Member
Put me in the camp that does not want Luke to die. I just want to see him fuck shit up in the next two movies.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Put me in the camp that wants to throw green paint on Luke and give him a stroke.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
This is what I wish for
Kylo kills Snoke in VIII (unlimited power)
Order of Ren kills Leia in VIII.
Luke gets killed by Kylo in IX.
I don't want Kylo turning over and would rather see him get beaten by Rey in IX.
Kylo kills Snoke in VIII (unlimited power)
Order of Ren kills Leia in VIII.
Luke gets killed by Kylo in IX.
I don't want Kylo turning over and would rather see him get beaten by Rey in IX.
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