Twilight Gap
Member
Episode II is my favorite of the prequels. The set pieces are fun and I can at least appreciate the sappy romance for its comedic effect. The beginning and end of III are fine, but don't care for anything in the middle.
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
Episode II is my favorite of the prequels. The set pieces are fun and I can at least appreciate the sappy romance for its comedic effect. The beginning and end of III are fine, but don't care for anything in the middle.
Future PhaZe
Member
The Jedi had no choice but to act as they did in the prequels. If they fail to act, then force users galaxy wide become vilified as dangerous. It suits their needs--both in preventing the development of Sith and in being tolerated by society by acting exactly as they do in the prequels.
I'd argue a Jedi "Emperor" would be the safest path for the Jedi overall, but that would be difficult to do while staying true to their moral code.
I'd argue a Jedi "Emperor" would be the safest path for the Jedi overall, but that would be difficult to do while staying true to their moral code.
It just didn't work for me. I mean him killing the Tusken Raiders, him having to hide his relationship, plus feeling outcast and used by the Jedi were ALL valid.
But not. THAT moment is what broke the camels back for Anakin.
The Lamonster
Member
I really enjoyed the Coruscant intro in AOTC as well as the Jango fights. The score was pretty damn good too, especially during the whole clone mystery/Obi Wan investigation scenes.
Romance stuff, Jedi colosseum stuff and Yoda fighting were all pretty bad though.
Twilight Gap
Member
Loved how TCW explored the subplot of Jedi being almost an unwanted presence.
Because no matter how they write it, Luke dying will be a little boring and predictable by this point because Star Wars has over done main character deaths.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Luke isn't a main character anymore.
I mean, dying in and of itself is "boring and predictable," as a concept, yunno?
"I just don't want him to die because I like him" is a perfectly understandable reason to be against any potential killing off of Luke Skywalker. But the fact other important characters have died doesn't mean Luke's death is now disqualified from storytelling potential.
The Council screwed up really badly with that one. The most frustrating thing was after she had been found innocent, they tried to pull the, "Oh, this was just your final test" card, which made me rage. Anakin was justified in wiping them out for that bullshit alone imo.
Luke is going to be viewed as a main character by the masses though because he's pretty much the main character of the entire franchise. Also I would be legitimately surprised if his role in 8 and 9 isn't bigger than Han's in 7 (and I think most would agree that Han was a main character in 7)
Vincent Alexander
Member
You're right. But it's just going to take a lot to really make it impactful. I have personally grown tired of death being used as much as it has been for impact in the last 10 years. I'm sure it has always been a big thing, because what is more impactful than losing one's life? But TV has damn near obliterated my response to death in a show. Back in the day it was Rescue Me for me. Now-a-days, it is Game of Thrones.
heliosRAzi
Banned
It's definitely not a well they can keep going to
Bobby Roberts
Banned
The problem there is that TV is chickenshit about killing their characters. They're super precious about it, to the point where you can't even trust the deaths that DO happen, because they'll just get retconned or faked-out in 3 or 4 episodes. There's been a couple articles written about this recently.
Being precious about fictional characters just hurts the fiction, and it burns the audience.
Hollywood keeps learning all the wrong lessons from superhero comics, basically.
PrivateWHudson
Member
I'll have to re-watch the end of three. I fell asleep in the theater after the "you're with me or against me" part and haven't watched it since.
My kids have been itching for more after marathoning the OT and seeing TFA...I may just break down and pick up the prequels. Just so they aren't out of the loop when the kids at school talk about it.
Yeah man! I imagine he never expected to see that lightsaber ever again. And yet here it is, following him to the edge of his own exile. He can't escape his fate, nor the choices of his father. That scene, and Luke's facial expressions, drive that home both symbolically and quite literally. It's great.
I view him as a main character because he had his own narrative arc to complete that paralleled Kylo Ren's. That's slightly different from Obiwan, whose purpose, by and large, was to be Luke's intro 101 to the force. His death at Darth Vader isn't really on the same level because I don't feel that there is as much going on between them and Kylo Ren and Han. They're basically old enemies and they don't give a damn about each other, trying to fight it out, with Obiwan being the more knowledgeable of the two. I wonder how differently it'd have been filmed if they knew Darth Vader was going to be Luke's father and his 'old friend' ahead of time, but as it is, it's just Big Good vs Big Evil.
If Luke is going to be a 'main character', then he needs his own narrative arc in Ep 8, which he might well have. And it might result in death. The important thing to not make it a 'tired and stale' reiteration of the trope is to have it be different, the same way Han's death was different from Obiwan's despite them fulfilling the same role on an conceptual level. Tropes don't get old. Only the usage of them does.
Liquidsnake
Banned
So I am hearing that the resistance are a rogue group operating outside of the alliance reaches.
I only now got back from the movie.
I knew all the spoilers before hand.
I've read peoples thoughts, the discussions, the likes, dislikes and you name it.
So what was my opinion?
I loved it.
It felt like Star Wars, it hit all the right notes. Sure you can say it's because it had some of the beats from ANH but it was it's own movie as well and that movie was great.
You saw the characters, you were shown what they could do which came in handy later on. I like the music, the scenery and my opinion of JJ Abrams actually went up. He didn't make the mistakes he does in a lot of films. There were scenes that when played I thought of what people said, what they didn't like and as I watched, listened and thought upon it all I could only find myself believing them to be nit picking. It's actually funny how the success of the movie has some people turned against it more than anything. But the success is well earned. The comedy parts were kept to where they should be, not in any big fights. There were so many "right moments" that made the film. I had zero issue with the acting.
Can't help but feel that some people were not happy with certain deaths or that there wasn't a overally happy ending for some after the OT but it felt natural. Not everything goes the way we think it will. Life has a way of doing that.
Like everything these days it will be dissected for all time to come but in the end, from what I saw both kids and older loved it. Didn't matter the age. It was Star Wars. It was the experience that you will remember. That you can bring to your own child one day or already have done so. And the fact we're going to get more of that.........I can't wait.
I knew all the spoilers before hand.
I've read peoples thoughts, the discussions, the likes, dislikes and you name it.
So what was my opinion?
I loved it.
It felt like Star Wars, it hit all the right notes. Sure you can say it's because it had some of the beats from ANH but it was it's own movie as well and that movie was great.
You saw the characters, you were shown what they could do which came in handy later on. I like the music, the scenery and my opinion of JJ Abrams actually went up. He didn't make the mistakes he does in a lot of films. There were scenes that when played I thought of what people said, what they didn't like and as I watched, listened and thought upon it all I could only find myself believing them to be nit picking. It's actually funny how the success of the movie has some people turned against it more than anything. But the success is well earned. The comedy parts were kept to where they should be, not in any big fights. There were so many "right moments" that made the film. I had zero issue with the acting.
Can't help but feel that some people were not happy with certain deaths or that there wasn't a overally happy ending for some after the OT but it felt natural. Not everything goes the way we think it will. Life has a way of doing that.
Like everything these days it will be dissected for all time to come but in the end, from what I saw both kids and older loved it. Didn't matter the age. It was Star Wars. It was the experience that you will remember. That you can bring to your own child one day or already have done so. And the fact we're going to get more of that.........I can't wait.
PeskyToaster
Member
They will have to demonstrate the effectiveness of Kylo Ren's completed training somehow and make the threat to the galaxy more apparent by killing of it's last possible defender until, what's that in the sky?! Rey takes up the mantle.
The New Republic and the First Order signed a mutual disarmament treaty after the Battle of Jakku, I think. The New Republic doesn't have an army as a throwback to the pre-clone wars days and the First Order is violating that treaty secretly while hiding in the far reaches of the universe. Leia and friends know that the First Order is doing this so they set up the Resistance to combat the First Order but are operating without the approval/support of the New Republic. The First Order believes the New Republic is backing the Resistance and violating the disarmament by proxy. Now the New Republic knows that shit is real because they got blasted by a giant laser.
I believe Alliance leadership sans Leia became the New Republic but now they have Republic-style trappings, like Chancellor (they don't use Supreme anymore). They also moved the seat of government to different member planets for solidarity. It is no longer on Coruscant.
The New Republic and the First Order signed a mutual disarmament treaty after the Battle of Jakku, I think. The New Republic doesn't have an army as a throwback to the pre-clone wars days and the First Order is violating that treaty secretly while hiding in the far reaches of the universe. Leia and friends know that the First Order is doing this so they set up the Resistance to combat the First Order but are operating without the approval/support of the New Republic. The First Order believes the New Republic is backing the Resistance and violating the disarmament by proxy. Now the New Republic knows that shit is real because they got blasted by a giant laser.
I believe Alliance leadership sans Leia became the New Republic but now they have Republic-style trappings, like Chancellor (they don't use Supreme anymore). They also moved the seat of government to different member planets for solidarity. It is no longer on Coruscant.
One could argue that Star Wars is going too far down the opposite path though and uses death too much for dramatic impact. Let me just list off all of the deaths that Star Wars has used for dramatic effect.
- Qui-Gon Jin (TPM)
- Mace Windu (ROTS)
- Padme (ROTS)
- Obi-Wan Kenobi (ANH)
- Yoda (ROTJ)
- Darth Vader (ROTJ)
- Han Solo (TFA)
It's a well the franchise has gone to a bit too often at this point. The franchise doesn't need to kill off main characters in order to have a lot of drama or storyline impact for a scene. Hell, you could argue that the most dramatic moment in the franchise wasn't technically a death.
Well, even if Luke does die there's still a good chance he's had the proper training/belief to become a force ghost.
WadiumArcadium
Member
The Rebel Alliance as they were don't exist anymore. They formed the New Republic. We see their current base of operation and most of their fleet targeted and destroyed by the First Order. The Resistance was created by Leia because the New Republic weren't treating the First Order as a serious threat, though some senators did support the Resistance campaign.
Twilight Gap
Member
prequel - kills the mentor in the first episode, no deaths in second but hero is gravely injured, two main characters die in last
original - kills the mentor in the first episode, no deaths in second but hero is gravely injured, two main characters die in last
new - kills mentor in the first episode,
think we already know what's going to happen, just not who it'll happen to. although i guess Finn already got his injury.
original - kills the mentor in the first episode, no deaths in second but hero is gravely injured, two main characters die in last
new - kills mentor in the first episode,
think we already know what's going to happen, just not who it'll happen to. although i guess Finn already got his injury.
Well that's one of the Jedi orders flaws. It won't admit when they make mistakes or overstep boundaries. It's part of why they fell.
WordAssassin
Member
Something that's been bothering me for a while now.
After the movie came out Neil deGrasse Tyson made a list of the "broken" science of The Force Awakens, and one of the things he says is that since BB-8 is a metal sphere he wouldn't be able to actually get anywhere on sand.
But.. isn't BB-8 a real working robot that they built? And he does... actually roll around in the sand? Obviously they used CG for certain things like him flinging around the Falcon and probably going down the stairs, but when he's just cruising around next to Rey and Fin in the desert, that's a real working robot isn't it?
I mean, I get that he'd probably have a difficult time going up a steep sandy hill but for all the other times he's zipping around I was under the impression it was an actual robot and not CGI.
After the movie came out Neil deGrasse Tyson made a list of the "broken" science of The Force Awakens, and one of the things he says is that since BB-8 is a metal sphere he wouldn't be able to actually get anywhere on sand.
But.. isn't BB-8 a real working robot that they built? And he does... actually roll around in the sand? Obviously they used CG for certain things like him flinging around the Falcon and probably going down the stairs, but when he's just cruising around next to Rey and Fin in the desert, that's a real working robot isn't it?
I mean, I get that he'd probably have a difficult time going up a steep sandy hill but for all the other times he's zipping around I was under the impression it was an actual robot and not CGI.
Vincent Alexander
Member
Not that I don't believe you, but that sounds like a super interesting article. If by any chance you can find it again, I'd love to read.
FriendlyGoat
Member
No, BB-8 was a puppet in the film, with the puppeteers CGI'd out. The robot came later.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
fictional characters dying isn't a "well," I don't think. It's a foregone conclusion. It's a necessity, honestly, if your story is going to have meaning and punch.
Using death for dramatic effect isn't an automatic negative. The worst example on your list is Mace Windu, really, for reasons everyone else in the thread is arguing - reasons that dont' necessarily have anything to do with the decision to kill him, either.
I'm pretty sure these are the two I was thinking of:
Sam Adams at Criticwire: Why TV Needs to Stop with the Fake-Out Deaths
and
James Poniewozik at NY Times: Death, Be Not Meh.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
In the sand scenes, BB-8 was a real ball but there were people dressed in green pushing him around with green sticks.
I strongly disagree that death is a necessity. I'd argue that the threat of death is better than death itself in terms of creating tension and drama in a movie.
BB-8 in the movie was not a fully autonomous, independent robot like you see now at red carpet events and conventions. They hadn't gotten that far with it, and it probably wouldn't have been fully conducive to the performance they wanted to get out of it on a scene by scene basis. It was still a fully practical thing, but it was a puppet controlled by puppeteers via long arms with controls, and puppeteers running along side of it in green suits who were painted out of the frame. So BB-8's locomotion is probably actually from the puppeteers pushing the puppet forward rather than it rolling under its own power, in which case it's hard to say if the actual thing would have gotten grip on loose sand itself or not.
For example, I don't know specifically how the puppet worked, so I don't know if a puppeteer pushed the arm forward, which pushed the whole puppet forward, or rather if the puppeteer pushed a "move forward" button on the end of the arm and BB-8 actually drove forward and the arm followed. We won't really know until there's more behind the scenes footage out there.
WadiumArcadium
Member
Especially in a franchise called Star Wars.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Threat of death without death is a false threat. No tension when you know people won't die, and the reason they won't die is because creators are being too precious about their creations to use them to their best, which sometimes means killing them.
I think in the case of Star Wars this is honestly false. Luke vs Vader in Cloud City and Han being frozen in carbonite were extremely tense sequences, and at that point in time the only notable death in the franchise was Obi-Wan dying in the previous movie. Empire Strikes Back is probably the darkest and most dramatically tense movie in the franchise, and the most notable character who dies in it is one of the captains who gets choked out by Vader.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Your own example relies on a death to provide stakes, though.
Again: "I just don't want them to kill Luke because I like him" is perfectly valid.
It relies on the threat of death, not actual death itself like you think it needs.
What did he mean by this?
Member
What do yoy guys think Kylo's opinion of the Emperor is?
But the reason Luke vs. Vader and Han getting frozen were so tense is probably largely because Obi-Wan died in IV, which made you unsure if other characters were actually safe in ESB. It set precedence.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Dude, the threat of death only remains a threat in your example because they killed an important guy in the previous movie, so you absolutely believe it's possible the creators could kill someone else.
If you never believe characters are going to die because they never actually kill anyone off when the story is best served by their dying, then you lose tension. You don't gain it.
This is why nobody gives a fuck when superheroes die.
Well...sorta.
I once read this Joker comic where in everything was grimdark as usual and Joker had an audience of a talk TV show tied up and above them was a set of bombs. He was doing his usual thing where he put people to some tests and they passed, but then actually failed because of a double answer or something like that, and then he pressed the button....only to have a bunch of confetti drop on them. He did that 2 more times, and it was pretty tense because your wondering 'oh, shit, is this the moment he's going to kill all these people...?'
But no, for once, the Joker is just....actually joking. Yet it was tense. Clever comic.
As I said, it's all in how you use the trope.
WordAssassin
Member
Whoooaaaa holy cow, thanks y'all! I didn't realize the actual working BB-8 wasn't made till after the movie was done. Very cool! Can't wait to see the behind the scenes stuff about him with goofy Green Men running around in the sand hahaha.
Do we know if they'll use the remote robot for the next movies, or is that not info anyone has at the moment?
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Vader wanted to overthrow the Emperor to rule the galaxy, so I think Kylo doesn't have any particular attachment to him.
Nobody gives a fuck about superheroes dying because the death/resurrection angle has been done to death (pardon the pun) in comic books. In professional wrestling nobody gives a fuck about bad guy authority figures anymore because it's been done to death since the 90s. Nobody cares about M Night Shamablama plot twists anymore because it's been done to death in most of his movies.
My point is when you rely on one thing for drama/storyline purposes too often you desensitize your audience to it after a while. As awesome as Han's death was from a story perspective, the actual dramatic feeling I had from it was lost a bit because the first thing I thought was "oh look, Star Wars killed off another mentor character". Star Wars is approaching Joss Whedon levels of abusing death as a plot device.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
That's also a super-specific example that only works because you already know the Joker is a murderous psychopath who has (and will never not) kill the shit out of people.
So again - in order for the threat of death to mean anything, death needs to actually occur in some sort of meaningful way.
Luke and Leia not making it out of this trilogy alive can (and likely will) serve very important story beats and help push the characters we do have along their arcs, as well as raise the stakes.
But the meager list you posted isn't "too often." That's like, one death per movie, in films that have casts of main/supporting characters well north of 10 most of the time.
"Oh look, Star Wars killed off another mentor character" isn't a thing people are going to say. It's not what they said in the OT, and it's nowhere NEAR "Whedon-levels" of abusing death, said levels being overstated at the time because the fanbase couldn't understand that their favorite character's death could be a better use of the character than having them sit around and quip until time immemorial.
LegendofLex
Member
You think it's a "happy accident" that the only thing we know Anakin thinks about the Jedi when we first meet him in Episode I is that they're 1) invincible ("no one can kill a Jedi") and 2) supposed to right all the wrongs in the universe ("I think you have [come to free the slaves]. Why else would you be here?"), that we learn in Episode II that this translates to his view on politics ("[People] should be made to [agree on the right action]... [by] someone wise"), and that his inability to accept anything less is ultimately what leads to his fall in Episode III and the subsequent rise of an Empire that by all accounts thinks along the very same lines?
EdReedFan20
Member
This is a dumb observation I had. I noticed that each movie in its respective place in each trilogy has the same amount of words in the title. Episodes I, IV, and VII have 3 words each (TPM, ANH, TFA), Episodes II and V have 4 words each (AOTC, TESB, ?), and Episodes III and VI have 4 words also (ROTS, ROTJ, ?).
brandonh83
Banned
Yeah it seemed deliberately plotted that way by Lucas, but I've argued this before. I think there's a lot to the prequel story and I quite dig how it subverted my expectations personally. They have problems but I don't think the story is one of them. My chief complaints are in some of the dialogue and performances.
I wasn't disagreeing with you on the principle. I agree that death isn't really an 'well' that gets filled up if you do too much of it. It's just that there are always ways in which you can use a trope in a new way. That's what I like about fiction, there are ultimately no concrete rules, just guidelines and tendencies, and you can take a commonly accepted idea like that threat of death needs to be real and turn it on it on it's head in the right situation. Sephzilla isn't wrong that they could find something else to do other than kill Luke and Leia. There are other ways to induce drama, even involving the thread of death that doesn't actually happen. He's just wrong that killing them itself would be tired just by the fact that the series has killed before. It's all about how the series does whatever it ends up doing.
Well, considering those things are COMPLETELY different from what we were just talking about (the Jedi order being corrupt or having corrupted vs Anakin's personal opinion on an absolutist authority figure), yeah.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
The planet's name is Ahch-To?
B-but Rakata Prime...
B-but Rakata Prime...
Listening to the soundtrack right now and I'm getting a bit emotional.
My favorite track has to be the "The Jedi Steps and the Finale".
Because I'm reminded of that scene. When Rey walks up to Luke she's shocked, surprised. When Rey extends the Saber. She almost looks sad as if this is her call to him. as if to say "give me some answers".
Luke turns around takes off his hood. Looks almost equally as shocked but then looks to show sadness, remorse maybe even guilt? Looks as though he's about to cry.
My favorite track has to be the "The Jedi Steps and the Finale".
Because I'm reminded of that scene. When Rey walks up to Luke she's shocked, surprised. When Rey extends the Saber. She almost looks sad as if this is her call to him. as if to say "give me some answers".
Luke turns around takes off his hood. Looks almost equally as shocked but then looks to show sadness, remorse maybe even guilt? Looks as though he's about to cry.
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