Count Dookkake
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
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Davey Cakes
Member
I hate to admit it but the anti-PT folks are winning this battle.
I completely get what's GOOD about the PT. It's not all mindless drivel. And I absolutely think the world-building is key to those movies.
But, I'm sorry. I just find The Force Awakens to be a "force" in filmmaking well beyond the movies of the PT. It's a bit too safe but it does a lot more as a compelling piece of entertainment which makes me excited to see the next two movies.
TFA is just higher quality all-around and that's hard to ignore.
All this said, I'm getting a bit tired of the bickering on both sides. It's just distracting from the pure happiness that a new Star Wars movie exists and people are talking about this franchise again like it's a bigger deal than ever before.
I completely get what's GOOD about the PT. It's not all mindless drivel. And I absolutely think the world-building is key to those movies.
But, I'm sorry. I just find The Force Awakens to be a "force" in filmmaking well beyond the movies of the PT. It's a bit too safe but it does a lot more as a compelling piece of entertainment which makes me excited to see the next two movies.
TFA is just higher quality all-around and that's hard to ignore.
All this said, I'm getting a bit tired of the bickering on both sides. It's just distracting from the pure happiness that a new Star Wars movie exists and people are talking about this franchise again like it's a bigger deal than ever before.
No one makes that criticism because it's totally unsupportable. Here's what Luke does with the Force in A New Hope:
- Blocks a few shots from the training droid
- Fires the proton torpedo at the Death Star manually, instead of using the targeting computer
In both cases he's mostly just giving himself over to unconscious intuition. And this is under the tutelage of a mentor. In Empire, after some indeterminate amount of time (and presumably practice), he can move his lightsaber with great concentration. Then he's off to Yoda for more training, before he's shown as capable of anything else.
True Savior
Member
I'm no surprised that a lackluster Star Wars movie, that Lucas have no involvement, would give him a more earned respect. Dude is an incredible creative person and his legacy will never be forgotten. His influence with the OT (content-wise) and PT (form-wise) will always remain through time but TFA awoke, in a certain type of person who grew up watching this movies, a sentiment that Star Wars is dead and buried.
The future is a bastardization over an incredible legacy made by Disney.
Hopefully people much more talented than JJ will thrive to create something innovative with this new property.
ultracal31
You don't get to bring friends.
I don't mind the criticism over TFA as even I have my own issues with the movie. My issues are with the current articles listed outside of a few legitism points they seem to be written by hipsters who want to go "I'm different eh".
You can also like elements in the PT but saying those elements (the few there are) from 3 otherwise terrible movies somehow eclipse the one TFA movie is just plain silly
Alx
Member
In the end I think the movie did a good job opening a new trilogy. It introduced new characters that were all appreciated, it had enough elements of the original trilogy to prove its faithfulness to the universe, and the fact that the plot was too familiar leaves the fans wanting something different now.
The next director now has his hands free to do whatever he wants with the new material, nobody will blame him for straying from the path.
True Savior
Member
Is the other side of the coin, articles written by sheep's?
excelsiorlef
Member
If anything is a basterdization it's the PT.
There is infinitely more passion on screen in TFA than the entire PT combined acting and character wise
Star Wars is brought to a new generation means Star Wars is dead, ridiculous.
I don't see why that would be the case when he made 3 far worse than lackluster Star Wars movies and the three that are looked upon more kindly certainly can't be 100% attributed to him.
Interfectum
Member
I think the argument is while the PT shoehorns in a ton of OT callbacks, it doesn't follow the movies (ANH specifically) as beat for beat as TFA does.
excelsiorlef
Member
And neither does TFA except on the most surface level.
ultracal31
You don't get to bring friends.
Totally
Though I was thinking more of judging on its own merits vs clickbaiting "PT were better cause new is different and better"
And this is coming from a guy who thinks TFA is a strong 7-8/10 movie
While elements of thbie article are clearly pushing agains the current to stand out that claim, on the actual ebvidence of JJ's films, is accurate.
He's a decent director with a nice eye for composition, an ability to get decent performances out of actors for the most part, and a workmanlike approach to narrative.
Nothing he's delviered, including TFA, would have anyone who critically appreciates the medium of film a master. Scorcese is a master, Kubrick was a master... JJ is not.
But that's not a slur. Few people in any medium is a master. 95% of books, films, novels and comics are created by talented craftsmen, people who understand the form and have varying level of talent within it. Only a few can ever be masters such as a Picasso, a Kubrick, a Moore (as in Alan Moore).
JJ was a prefect choice for the reboot as noted as he had the right skills technically and he was always going to be reverential vs out to kill sacred cows and make his Star Wars movie. He made the SW movie he thought fans wanted (including himself) and tried to accomodate the scipt/actors as best he could within this.
The result is a solid but not great film with just the right mix of great scenes to balance the weaker stuff and nice performances for the most part. Most of all it looked, sounded and felt the way fans wanted hence the success.
TBH Star Wars is a textbook case of when an artistic work becomes a Frankenstein monster that gets away from the creator (Lucas). Unlike the monster though its taken by the fans who want what they want.
Not that this is automatically bad, just interesting. That was always the root of the conflict. So far as Lucas was concerned Star Wars was his and if he wanted to recall the painting from the gallery and change it that was his call. If he wanted to test himself creatively and risk mucking about with the magic formula, why that was his call too. However the fanbase, and definition of what Star Wars was, thought differently.
It's always an interesting dilemma with popular material be it a film or a game or whatever.
TFA makes it clear Disney aim to give fans what they want and I presume that's why Lucas ultimately kept his distance. His thinking and Disney's thinking were (are I guess) literally polar opposites.
Now if Lucas was capable of delivering ANH and EBS level films that also took risks and didn't just copy the OT then I'd be all for him still being in charge. Trouble is - speaking as a fan myself - the prequels clearly indicates (as the articles seem to note) that while he had the right ideas he had lost the ability to execute them to the same level as before.
Thus all things being considered I - and probably most - would probably prefer the less interesting and creative approach of Disney (as evidenced by TFA) as it at least promises a damn good Star Wars themed film and familiar heroics and beats vs interesting failures.
True Savior
Member
Totally
Though I was thinking more of judging on its own merits vs clickbaiting "PT were better cause new is different and better"
And this is coming from a guy who thinks TFA is a strong 7-8/10 movie
But there's good and bad content written no matter how one values the movie. At least that's a palpable characterization, instead of "passion"
TPM is more of a retread of ANH than TFA. Force-sensitive Skywalker found on Tatooine, the kindly Jedi Master who began to teach him about the force is killed by a Sith Lord forcing him to learn from a new master, plus Skywalker hopping in a fighter with R2 and taking down an enemy space station.
Has this ever been posted before?
https://news.vice.com/video/adam-dr...-troops-excerpt-from-arts-in-the-armed-forces
Driver confirmed for based at 1:05
https://news.vice.com/video/adam-dr...-troops-excerpt-from-arts-in-the-armed-forces
Driver confirmed for based at 1:05
ultracal31
You don't get to bring friends.
But there's good and bad content written no matter how one values the movie. At least that's a palpable characterization, instead of "passion"
True true
Plus both movies have a princess who ends up being respectable in combat and basically field generals at the end when they need to defeat the bigger powerful Empire... I mean Trade Federation. JJ nailed the "its poetry, it rhymes" thing way better than Lucas
I recognised nothing, Your comment came within a page or two of mine where I express that view.
Rather than try and analysis people motives with pop physiology you could just read why we don't like TFA.
It's a friggen Star Wars film not high cinema. All the films are flawed in one way or another, its just a case of pick your poison. What difference does it make to you if I'd get more of a Star Wars vibe from The Phantom Menace than The Force Awakens?
Take one look at the comics please, plenty of allusions to the PT can be found. They are even releasing a Obi-Wan and Anakin comic starting this march aside from the ongoing "Kanan - The Last Padawan" series. What an effectless plague.
He is such a nice guy, don't know why I kept disliking him till TFA. :/
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
wow, someone PLEASE gif 02:22 for me
funkystudent
Member
I do hope Ewan Mcgregor Kenobi makes a meaningful appearance at some point during all this. The most spot on part of the PT and since then he has never got jaded or tried to distance himself form it like some people do.
Would love to see Ewan in a good Star Wars movie.
You got plenty of options. Cameo appearance is a anthology movie. His own solo movie. On screen force ghost in the current trilogy. I dunno.
Dude is the one thing from the prequels that made it into TFA so I guess Disney knows it too.
Would love to see Ewan in a good Star Wars movie.
You got plenty of options. Cameo appearance is a anthology movie. His own solo movie. On screen force ghost in the current trilogy. I dunno.
Dude is the one thing from the prequels that made it into TFA so I guess Disney knows it too.
Seen it a couple times now, will see it some more, especially when my employee pass lets me in.
The new cast is great, and I wish this movie gave them more. As it is, Finn and Rey spend most of the time reacting to the plot pushing them places instead having real time to explore themselves, though Rey's intro was great, especially with almost dialogue until BB8. Oscar Isaac is great and really holds down the beginning, his charisma keeps the beginning from feeling like just another SyFy original flick opening. Kylo is my favorite character in star wars, and I can't wait to see what they do with him. In both of my showings, you could hear the audible gasps as his helmet came off. Adam Driver's ability to disarm with his voice and look really sell in this movie. The mind duel scene with Driver making his faux badass facial ticks and movements trying to be all frightening but really just showing his inability to be so without the mask, really pays off when he finally gets over the hump with Solo.
I feel the main issues in the film all revolve around production. The soundtrack felt like it was used very inappropriately, especially in the Maz Xwing battle. That one spectacular kill in particular that looks so cool in the earlier trailer(@1:35) plays to no impact in the movie. The set design was cool but impractical, the han death scene in particular. In my second showing, I made sure to look at where Kylo is walking to, its literally a cloud of mist and a wall. Literally everyone in the theater knows whats about to happen, that is not good filmmaking. Why not use that poetry and have them meet in a hallway or an empty hangar similar to ANH? It's a complete failure to the scene, the writers and the actors, who now have to do twice as much work to bring any gravity to the scene. Luckily, Adam Driver was more than up to the task. And what the fuck is with that final shot? Was that handheld? Who the fuck thought that was a good idea? It was like they let Lucas in the chair for the camera moves. The only way that shot kind of works is if they use that same shot in VIII, which for narratives sake I hope they don't. I think the one time a modern shot should've been utilized is during the scene when they destroy the republic. Having a single tracking shot from outer space to the surface of the planet would've given more magnitude to the star killer base. As it happens in the film, its almost a disconnect, and we have to have dumb broken expository dialogue explain that yes they are on the surface of the very planet you were just looking at. It just diminishes what should be a what the fuck moment.
I hope Finn isn't a complete bait and switch and we get some equal opportunity saber duels, as I've been a Boyega stan since Attack the Block and I really want to see him at Moses status.
Overall, it's right behind the trilogy for me. The obvious retread in story beats keep it from rising above them, but by no means does that keep it from being a good film in its own right.
The new cast is great, and I wish this movie gave them more. As it is, Finn and Rey spend most of the time reacting to the plot pushing them places instead having real time to explore themselves, though Rey's intro was great, especially with almost dialogue until BB8. Oscar Isaac is great and really holds down the beginning, his charisma keeps the beginning from feeling like just another SyFy original flick opening. Kylo is my favorite character in star wars, and I can't wait to see what they do with him. In both of my showings, you could hear the audible gasps as his helmet came off. Adam Driver's ability to disarm with his voice and look really sell in this movie. The mind duel scene with Driver making his faux badass facial ticks and movements trying to be all frightening but really just showing his inability to be so without the mask, really pays off when he finally gets over the hump with Solo.
I feel the main issues in the film all revolve around production. The soundtrack felt like it was used very inappropriately, especially in the Maz Xwing battle. That one spectacular kill in particular that looks so cool in the earlier trailer(@1:35) plays to no impact in the movie. The set design was cool but impractical, the han death scene in particular. In my second showing, I made sure to look at where Kylo is walking to, its literally a cloud of mist and a wall. Literally everyone in the theater knows whats about to happen, that is not good filmmaking. Why not use that poetry and have them meet in a hallway or an empty hangar similar to ANH? It's a complete failure to the scene, the writers and the actors, who now have to do twice as much work to bring any gravity to the scene. Luckily, Adam Driver was more than up to the task. And what the fuck is with that final shot? Was that handheld? Who the fuck thought that was a good idea? It was like they let Lucas in the chair for the camera moves. The only way that shot kind of works is if they use that same shot in VIII, which for narratives sake I hope they don't. I think the one time a modern shot should've been utilized is during the scene when they destroy the republic. Having a single tracking shot from outer space to the surface of the planet would've given more magnitude to the star killer base. As it happens in the film, its almost a disconnect, and we have to have dumb broken expository dialogue explain that yes they are on the surface of the very planet you were just looking at. It just diminishes what should be a what the fuck moment.
I hope Finn isn't a complete bait and switch and we get some equal opportunity saber duels, as I've been a Boyega stan since Attack the Block and I really want to see him at Moses status.
Overall, it's right behind the trilogy for me. The obvious retread in story beats keep it from rising above them, but by no means does that keep it from being a good film in its own right.
Yes, because there has definitely been a shortage in this franchise of men wielding lightsabers.
Liquidsnake
Banned
I hope so. Ewan was amazing.
The one black saber wielder was killed in the lamest way after 1 ballet dance with Jango Fett.
For some reason that vidéo just won't load here. I wonder if it's blocked by the firewall.
Is there a YouTube mirror?
Thanks!
WadiumArcadium
Member
I remember reading Driver said "Fuck yeah" in response to whether it was better than the prequels. Now I know where it's from.
He's a nice bad guy.
Nah dude he was kinda terrible, but so was everyone else in those movies. I'd honesty like to see him get another shot at the character though
WadiumArcadium
Member
Interfectum
Member
McDiarmid wasn't terrible. Ewan definitely wasn't either.
McDiarmid was fine in Episode 1 and 2. In parts of Episode 3 he was awful, IMO.
Twilight Gap
Member
Only person from the Prequel cast I can't stand is Natalie Portman. Hayden isn't the best actor but I think he's a good Anakin who could have pulled it off with better lines and direction.
Natalie on the other hand is either dry or obnoxious in any scene she's in, and I can't say I care for her in any other movie she's been in.
Anyway, Rey is a Kenobi. Search your feelings.
Natalie on the other hand is either dry or obnoxious in any scene she's in, and I can't say I care for her in any other movie she's been in.
Anyway, Rey is a Kenobi. Search your feelings.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
I love this guy.
LegendofLex
Member
I can see why people might walk away from his character in 3 thinking this, but I'm really curious what scenes didn't work for you, outside of the horribly cheesy fight scene.
#TeamNoOne
WadiumArcadium
Member
I thought he was great. Over the top but entertaining. The Plagueis scene was good and I liked his speech to the senate.
McDiarmid wasn't terrible. Ewan definitely wasn't either.
What is the correct response when gif and comment contradict each other? McDiarmid was god awful in that exact scene your gif is taken from. And watching Ewan McGregor talk about Anakin killing younglings is soap opera level bad. The prequels specialized in taking good actors and turning out terrible/bad/flat performances. No one escaped this process, not Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor, Natalie Portman, Sam Jack, Christopher Lee, no one.
WadiumArcadium
Member
I used it because he says "No" in it lol. It's not his best scene but at least McDiarmid's performance is fun and entertaining, which you can't say for many of the others. I'm arguing it wasn't terrible, not that it was incredible.
I thought Liam was decent in TPM too. Definitely one of the brighter parts of the film.
Same. I want nobodies to have to cut down the Skywalker family tree for bringing unbalance to the force.
Twilight Gap
Member
Prequel dialog is weak mostly because everyone has a "proper" way of talking. Senators have to sound all diplomatic; Jedi have to sound all cryptic and wise.
And then you look at the OT or NT where nobody really talks "proper" except Obi Wan. Half of Finn's lines especially sound improvised. It makes the interactions feel more genuine.
It represents a difference in how exposition is conveyed. Prequels tell more than show, which is ironic since you can show anything with CG. It's why arguably the weakest scene from TFA was an exposition dump.
And then you look at the OT or NT where nobody really talks "proper" except Obi Wan. Half of Finn's lines especially sound improvised. It makes the interactions feel more genuine.
It represents a difference in how exposition is conveyed. Prequels tell more than show, which is ironic since you can show anything with CG. It's why arguably the weakest scene from TFA was an exposition dump.
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