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[Fancy Clown]

It's only been out a few weeks, and people have already spotted huge flaws. I don't think it'll stand the test if time, like you think.

It certainly has flaws, but at its core it's a good movie. It's flaws are certainly no greater than those of Return of the Jedi or even really A New Hope. Neither of those movies were devoid of "huge flaws", but they still overall succeed as pieces of competent storytelling (well, A New Hope did anyway). The prequels don't. And TFA revived interest in Star Wars from fans both new and old and will likely become the highest grossing movie ever, unlike the prequels which dwindled interest and goodwill in the series.

I don't even care how TFA will be "seen" as if it will have some massive revaluation where suddenly some giant flaw will become apparent that people haven't noticed yet in the 5+ times they've seen it in the theater.
The evidence of good storytelling at play in the movie is clear from first watch, and if you revise the OT you will notice that not only do they share many of the same problems, but TFA is better than them in some regards as well.

 

[Gintamen]

You remind me of something with the Darth Maul fight and how it just "stops" in the middle with laser barriers.

Now this is some nit picking but what do those barriers do in that universe? Like what functions do they serve in that palace?

So that terrorists can't run in and out real fast?

 

[ultracal31]

It also left a bunch of people scratching heads on how is Rey such a virtuoso pilot. In that sense, making that chase so thrilling hurt TFA's story for a bunch of people.

Do people forget how she starts off the chase with barely getting the ship working and as a result has a rough start up and crashes into things?

 

[Fancy Clown]

BB8 is an R2D2 clone. R2 has wheels in his feet and also rolls.

And a purple lightsaber is just a blue lightsaber except purple. It's a minor aesthetic change that has zero impact on the story whatsoever. At least with BB8 they are able to mine some new visual comedy out of his design so he's not just a window dressing rehash of R2.

I didnt expect a detailed write up but many of the things you listed as being new, innovative, and cool things the prequels did either straight up aren't any of those things, or are utterly meaningless minor aesthetic shifts that have no bearing on the actual movie in any way.


I don't even disagree that the prequels did a lot of new things with Star Wars, it's just weird that you would list a lot of trivial minutea rather than the big, obvious, and meaningfully different things Lucas and co did with them:

-Changed the whole concept of Jedi and lightsaber duels from Arthurian knight sword fighting to balletic wushu dances of warrior monks
-Art direction changed from gritty run down pseudo real cyberpunk art direction to very easy asian influenced
-New operatic score to go with the martial arts fighting style and the new focus of melodrama, romance, and political intrigue the story instead of a focus on adventure, hero's journey structure
-A big push for digital effects vs practical, with heavy use of green screen technology for landscapes, and even heavy reliance on digital characters
-And then of course you have all the minor aesthetic stuff like droids instead of stormtroopers, wacky lightsabers, more alien planets, new ships, etc.

This says nothing of their quality of course, but those are the big new things that came with the prequels which nobody has ever denied. That's why TFA is the way it is, people just didn't like the new things or how they were handled because they were so far removed from what they liked about Star Wars in the first place.

 

[Brakke]

Yup, I'm complaining Sam was doing pirouettes.

There is no tension in the fights at all. They're shot boring, the overchoreography is some ADD twirling, and Sam's character specifically is supposed to be the best fucking dancer of them all. Yet he gets ganked by some dude doing the harlem shake. TFA's fight had more tension and gravity to it than all of the prequel dancebattles.

"No tension or gravity" are criticisms that stick to the prequel fights, sure, but they're not criticisms that stick to ballet.

You want to say the prequel battles are all "sound and fury" (the bonus there is the preceding line in Macbeth is "told by an idiot" and the succeeding line is "signifying nothing"). That's more effective than invoking ballet as some prissy emotionless thing, which is straight up wrong.

 

[Geist-]

Can't believe people in the toy thread are arguing that Rey isn't the main character to justify her absence in the toy market.

There's always gotta be two sides to an argument.

So what's the likelihood that we might see some non-binary morality in the next few movies? I can accept that black and white nature of TFA because they were trying their hardest to emulate the original trilogy as a way to welcome back fans to the franchise after the PT mess, but I'm getting tired of the cartoon evil that's so prevalent.

 

[inm8num2]

I'd actually be down for a pod-racing spinoff, no joke.

Spoiler

c'mon Justin Lin

That could actually be pretty sick. I second this.

Ben Quadinaros starring in...

2 Bombad 2 Poodoo

 

[Brakke]

Do people forget how she starts off the chase with barely getting the ship working and as a result has a rough start up and crashes into things?

You put my words in someone else's mouth there, weird.

I'm not interested in litigating that one again, I'm not sure her performance even bothers me: but it is empirically true that a lot of people came away dissatisfied with her super skills there.

 

[atr0cious]

Do people forget how she starts off the chase with barely getting the ship working and as a result has a rough start up and crashes into things?

Didn't actually write this, but I'll say that I was surprised she could fly so well, especially the first time I watched it. When I read on here she did simulations first, it made more sense, so the second time I was checking her helmet to see if it was the simulator but there was no clue. Finding a way to maybe show that better would've been nice, maybe have a faint flight screen on the helmet she wears. As it is, it comes off as that nonconventional wisdom of playing shooter video games makes you a great shot in the real world, which still works because this is a movie about space wizards.

"No tension or gravity" are criticisms that stick to the prequel fights, sure, but they're not criticisms that stick to ballet.

You want to say the prequel battles are all "sound and fury" (the bonus there is the preceding line in Macbeth is "told by an idiot" and the succeeding line is "signifying nothing"). That's more effective than invoking ballet as some prissy emotionless thing, which is straight up wrong.

Are you a ballet dancer? I'm trying to figure out why you can't even address my actual complaint and only talk about word use, which was just a dumb analog for what they were doing, not sword fighting. I did see the nutcracker as a kid and black swan so I know a little about tension in ballet.

 

[Lmo911]

If he survives, then Kylo truly is an awful villain.

Kylo lacks loyalty! He isn't the villain you are looking for. He's going to be the back stabbing bastard.

Kylie didn't do a back flip after being shot though. That has to count for something.

 

[The Librarian]

Do people forget how she starts off the chase with barely getting the ship working and as a result has a rough start up and crashes into things?

All they had to do was include a line about her shooting sand cheetahs and it would've been fine

 

[Sephzilla]

I always just assumed she was a pilot. She has a doll of an X-Wing pilot in her AT-AT shanty, has a rebel pilot helmet, and once the Stormtroopers show up looking for her and Finn one of the first things she does is looks for a ship to escape (and her line about preferring the quad jumper over the Falcon shows she has familiarity with both).

Retroactively I think some of her great piloting was a combination of The Force and that she's likely a Skywalker.

 

[Ding-Ding]

It's not a list of pros, it's a list of new stuff. It's an argument for how the prequels were brand new, individual movies and not just a ANH rehash like TFA was.

But most of the new stuff in the PT was utter shite, so it kinda defeats the point.

Yes there was alot of callbacks to the OT in TFA which made it feel familiar, but for me there had to be.

The PT left a very bad taste in a hell of alot of Star Wars fans mouths, which is something TFA had to get over and fast. It did that. However, while it was familiar, it also will lead to something different. An example being we now have a bad guy who chose the Dark Side over his family, something Vader never did.

Sometimes you have to take a large step back, just to move forward

 

[atr0cious]

Exactly.

I started thinking this when a friend told me about some EU similarities, namely Han's son turning evil but also mentioned the Luke clone (Luuke). They seem to be at least a little bit following EU stories...

It also solves some problems. How can Rey be a Skywalker (since the series is mainly about the Skywalkers) but be abandoned by Luke (and if he had to for some reason, why with a slaver)? If she's a clone (or genetically engineered from Luke [maybe even Anikin too] in some way) that Luke doesn't know about, that problem is solved. It also explains why Ep VII is so very like Ep IV.

And if it's like MGS2, then not even Snoke knows he's a part of this but is being manipulated by something (like the dead Emperor's contingency plans or an AI version of him).

Making her a clone would pin her more into Mary Sue territory would it not? She'd then be nothing but a construct of men "better" than her, who's previous actions she would be inherently reacting to.

 

[Liquidsnake]

But most of the new stuff in the PT was utter shite, so it kinda defeats the point.

Yes there was alot of callbacks to the OT in TFA which made it feel familiar, but for me there had to be.

The PT left a very bad taste in a hell of alot of Star Wars fans mouths, which is something TFA had to get over and fast. It did that. However, while it was familiar, it also will lead to something different. An example being we now have a bad guy who chose the Dark Side over his family, something Vader never did.

Sometimes you have to take a large step back, just to move forward

"these are your first steps"

 

[30yearsofhurt]

Guys, I know that hating on the prequels is the cool thing to do,

People don't hate them because it's "cool".
People hate them because they're atrocious pieces of unintelligible excrement.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

An example being we now have a bad guy who chose the Dark Side over his family, something Vader never did.

Huh? Choosing the Dark Side over his family is the reason Anakin became Vader to begin with.

 

[JoeInky]

Lmao

The prequel trilogy had a purple lightsaber in it, what a bold and new idea that sets the prequel trilogy above TFA.

 

[atr0cious]

Huh? Choosing the Dark Side over his family is the reason Anakin became Vader to begin with.

Opposite, Annie took the dark because he thought it was the only way to save Padme, due to his vision of her dying in child birth. Also Palpatine's stellar debate skills on the subject of good vs evil.

 

[Gintamen]

People don't hate them because it's "cool".

Yeah it wasn't cool to cringe throughout the rewatch.

It also left a bunch of people scratching heads on how is Rey such a virtuoso pilot. In that sense, making that chase so thrilling hurt TFA's story for a bunch of people.

She has found a flight simulator during one of her scavanging trips in the novelization. Rey could have had spent thousands of hours in the sim.

 

[heliosRAzi]

She has found a flight simulator during one of her scavanging trips in the novelization.

Should've been in the movie

 

[Fancy Clown]

She has found a flight simulator during one of her scavanging trips in the novelization.

That's extra-textual aka not in the movie, so it doesn't really matter

 

[The Chef]

Lmao

The prequel trilogy had a purple lightsaber in it, what a bold and new idea that sets the prequel trilogy above TFA.

Samuel Jackson: "So ya'll ever seen no purple lightsaber have you?"
George Lucas: "Well, there's green and red. So light side and dark side"
Samuel Jackson: "..."
George Lucas: "...You may get a purple one."

Yeah, not a lot of thought went into it.

Spoiler

This is actually pretty close to the actual conversation that took place.

 

[Falk]

This got me good

 

[Gonzalez]

She has found a flight simulator during one of her scavanging trips in the novelization.

Novelization having the answer shouldn't be an excuse for poor storytelling.

I've noticed that with a lot of the recent TFA discussion.

"Hey why did so, and so do the thing."

"Well read this book, and the Marvel spin-off."

 

[The Chef]

This got me good

hahaha

 

[thecouncil]

Samuel Jackson: "So ya'll ever seen no purple lightsaber have you?"
George Lucas: "Well, there's green and red. So light side and dark side"
Samuel Jackson: "..."
George Lucas: "...You may get a purple one."

Yeah, not a lot of thought went into it.

Spoiler

This is actually pretty close to the actual conversation that took place.

pretty close.

 

[shanafan]

I am selling all my Star Wars DVDs on eBay, and based on how many views each movie got, here is the ranking from highest to lowest.

1) A New Hope
2) Empire Strikes Back
3) Return of the Jedi
4) Phantom Menace
5) Revenge of the Sith
6) Attack of the Clones

So yep, unofficial internet ebay ranking of the movies based on amount of views for each DVD

 

[30yearsofhurt]

Opposite, Annie took the dark because he thought it was the only way to save Padme, due to his vision of her dying in child birth. Also Palpatine's stellar debate skills on the subject of good vs evil.

Cause he had vague unintelligible visions of her having a traumatic childbirth...

Worried about your wife dying in labour?
Should you:

• a) Consult a midwife and Obstetrician and then seek the best medical attention you can get for her?
• b) turn evil and kill a bunch of kids? I mean they were only going to kill themselves anyway waving those lightsabers about so close to each other anyway...

Who's the idiot who wrote that stuff? oh yeah...

 

[LegendofLex]

Novelization having the answer shouldn't be an excuse for poor storytelling. I've noticed this with a lot of the recent TFA discussion.

Directly from the film:

"We need a pilot."
"We've got one!"
"You?!"

Done.

Every other case where we've seen a prodigy pilot in Star Wars, our background on their piloting skills has boiled down exactly to someone mentioning that they're a pilot.

Obi-Wan, ANH: "I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself."

Anakin, TPM: "I'm the only human who can [fly a podracer]."

And, likewise, in every case, we see them first demonstrate their piloting skills pulling off stuff that's supposed to be really really difficult.

Luke, ANH: Blows up the Death Star by making a shot down to the reactor without using a targeting computer during his first outing in an X-Wing, somehow magically doesn't get shot down even though he's right in Vader's scopes and Vader pulls the trigger.

Anakin, TPM: Wins the Boonta Eve podrace against much more experienced racers, recovers from an accidental trip up a service ramp that was clearly supposed to wreck his pod.

Rey, TFA: Avoids being shot down by (but not being shot by) two TIE Fighters amidst the wreckage of a large battle, flips the ship perpendicular to the ground so Finn can get in a final shot.

What's the explanation, every single time?

The Force is with them.

But that explanation apparently doesn't cut it for a woman.

People always cite how bumpy her take-off was. But that lasts four seconds versus a long sequence of flawless maneuvers. If her actual flight was bumpy like that then I think "this is her first time flying" would've read better.

She specifically says that she's never "left the planet" during the film; it's implied she's flown before, just not the Falcon, since it "hasn't flown in years."

So what do we see? She fumbles a bit to take control of the Falcon, but once she gets going she finds her element and starts trying trickier maneuvers.

But wow so implausible

 

[The Librarian]

That's extra-textual aka not in the movie, so it doesn't really matter

In place of that, she says she's a pilot and that she's flown before but never left the planet.

Done!

 

[funkystudent]

I bet we see more references to the prequel trilogy in future movies. That stuff was probably purposefully pushed to the side in TFA just to hammer it home that this is Star Wars ass Star Wars and not that other Star Wars.

Even then I dont expect a whole lot but just the stuff that makes sense. Ewan as Obi Wan being something I dont think anyone will have any issue with


The question would be that if they do a Vader force ghost again do you bring Hayden Christiansen in or do ghost vader suit and get james earl jones to record the voice?

 

[Brakke]

Should've been in the movie

Or not. "She's good because she plays video games" would make the Mary Sue thing stick better lol. That's some Last Starfighter-ass, Ernest Cline kind of thing to do. Is Rey in the movie Pixels? I can't imagine a way to show her goofing around on a simulator that doesn't read as Totally Lame.

People always cite how bumpy her take-off was. But that lasts four seconds versus a long sequence of flawless maneuvers. If her actual flight was bumpy like that then I think "this is her first time flying" would've read better.

Or just not have the chase sequence at all. She doesn't need to be a good pilot for anything else that happens. She can still endear herself to Han with her mechanical knowledge. Maybe he even gives her some instruction on piloting and it's a teaching-your-kid-to-drive moment.

 

[The Chef]

pretty close.

Dude nice find.

 

[Interfectum]

Cause he had vague unintelligible visions of her having a traumatic childbirth...

Worried about your wife dying in labour?
Should you:

• a) Consult a midwife and Obstetrician and then seek the best medical attention you can get for her?
• b) turn evil and kill a bunch of kids? I mean they were only going to kill themselves anyway waving those lightsabers about so close to each other anyway...

Who's the idiot who wrote that stuff? oh yeah...

"Padme, I slayed a bunch of children so you'd stay alive! Papa Pally told me a bedtime story about how an evil sith lord could raise the dead or something so I decided to go pure evil!"

 

[30yearsofhurt]

"Padme, I slayed a bunch of children so you'd stay alive! Papa Pally told me a bedtime story about how an evil sith lord could raise the dead or something so I decided to go pure evil!"

He should be rappin this R&B style to her...

 

[Zabka]

Or not. "She's good because she plays video games" would make the Mary Sue thing stick better lol. That's some Last Starfighter-ass, Ernest Cline kind of thing to do. Is Rey in the movie Pixels? I can't imagine a way to show her goofing around on a simulator that doesn't read as Totally Lame.

People always cite how bumpy her take-off was. But that lasts four seconds versus a long sequence of flawless maneuvers. If her actual flight was bumpy like that then I think "this is her first time flying" would've read better.

Or just not have the chase sequence at all. She doesn't need to be a good pilot for anything else that happens. She can still endear herself to Han with her mechanical knowledge. Maybe he even gives her some instruction on piloting and it's a teaching-your-kid-to-drive moment.

She's force sensitive which means she can see things before they happen. That means she can do crazy shit with a ship that nobody should be able to do.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Or not. "She's good because she plays video games" would make the Mary Sue thing stick better lol. That's some Last Starfighter-ass, Ernest Cline kind of thing to do. Is Rey in the movie Pixels? I can't imagine a way to show her goofing around on a simulator that doesn't read as Totally Lame.

People always cite how bumpy her take-off was. But that lasts four seconds versus a long sequence of flawless maneuvers. If her actual flight was bumpy like that then I think "this is her first time flying" would've read better.

Or just not have the chase sequence at all. She doesn't need to be a good pilot for anything else that happens. She can still endear herself to Han with her mechanical knowledge. Maybe he even gives her some instruction on piloting and it's a teaching-your-kid-to-drive moment.

Lol fuck that. It was a great scene.

 

[……forgetit]

pretty close.

Jesus Hayden YOU ARE IN STAR WARS. A little enthusiasm would be nice.

 

[Banana Aeon]

He should be rappin this R&B style to her...

Vader could be on that Drake shit.

 

[Fencedude]

Here we have a good example of how one character can say they are good at things, and everyone is fine with that as evidence. However when another character says the same thing, suddenly thats not enough.

Remind again what the major difference between Luke and Rey is. It seems to be escaping me

 

[spindashing]

He should be rappin this R&B style to her...

My mind is telling me no... but my body, my body's telling me yes.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Or not. "She's good because she plays video games" would make the Mary Sue thing stick better lol. That's some Last Starfighter-ass, Ernest Cline kind of thing to do. Is Rey in the movie Pixels? I can't imagine a way to show her goofing around on a simulator that doesn't read as Totally Lame.

Pixels? How about Futurama. I got an 80s mixtape and a bottle of Canasta.

People always cite how bumpy her take-off was. But that lasts four seconds versus a long sequence of flawless maneuvers. If her actual flight was bumpy like that then I think "this is her first time flying" would've read better.

Maneuvers that put Poe to shame. I don't think he did anything as flashy.

Remind again what the major difference between Luke and Rey is. It seems to be escaping me

For one, Luke flew in a straight line.

 

[Brakke]

She's force sensitive which means she can see things before they happen. That means she can do crazy shit with a ship that nobody should be able to do.

duh. why do you think I don't know this?

 

[LegendofLex]

duh. why do you think I don't know this?

Because it's an explanation that's selectively adequate for both male piloting prodigies in the franchise pulling off feats that other characters within the universe deem impossible, including a 19-year-old farmhand and a 9-year-old slave, but not for a 19-20 year old woman who literally makes a living off of tinkering with and knowing her way around ships and doesn't get the same scrutiny in-universe.

 

[Gintamen]

Should've been in the movie

It really doesn't, we are shown a helmet without any sign of an x-wing as well as her running towards a ship to escape. The context was enough, do people need characters to express every little detail to them? What happened to deductive reasoning!?

edit: And it seems like she even said so herself. But nagging is a fun pastime.

 

[Twilight Gap]

Here we have a good example of how one character can say they are good at things, and everyone is fine with that as evidence. However when another character says the same thing, suddenly thats not enough.

Remind again what the major difference between Luke and Rey is. It seems to be escaping me

lol

Pixels? How about Futurama. I got an 80s mixtape and a bottle of Canasta.



Maneuvers that put Poe to shame. I don't think he did anything as flashy.


For one, Luke flew in a straight line.

Rey flew through a ship she's been in probably hundreds of times, pulled off one lucky manuever and crashed it the rest of the time. Meanwhile Poe is the guy in the Banshee who makes Killtastrophe montages and causes the other team to rage quit.

 

[Number_6]

What if Rey is a clone of Luke from his hand (they retrieved the blue saber, why not his hand?)

And what if Ep VII is intentionally recreating the events of Ep IV to make a new Luke (a la MGS2).

Who is behind all this, I don't know, but that's my new crazy theory.

Lol. I was just thinking about this during my morning commute. Like, it would be crazy if this were the case. Then all the A New Hope retread would make that much more sense! Holy shit!

 

[Zabka]

duh. why do you think I don't know this?

Because you're posting stupid stuff. Force-sensitive people are naturally good pilots so saying "She doesn't need to be good at flying" even though the other two lead Force users were good pilots is bullcrap.

 

[DarkKyo]

Epic

What is the source of this? Is it a real poster? A book cover? Fanart?