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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

Davey Cakes

Member
Finally saw the movie today after a long wait (we booked it for day one, but that showing was cancelled and their other options for us didn't work so we had to wait until today) but my girlfriend and I both loved it. I haven't seen a Star Wars movie before this but wanted to but just said "fuck it" and watched it anyway, not sure if it's the same with most SW movies but I thought it was paced very, very well and was casted great too. Looking forward to it coming out on DVD.
Glad to know you liked it.

I'm actually quite interested in the opinions of people who watched TFA without seeing any prior Star Wars movie.

It's an enjoyable space fantasy flick as it is but there are many callbacks to the previous movies. Lots of stuff you just wouldn't get or wouldn't understand the significance of until you've seen the events of the OT at the very least.

I guess the movie does a good job of providing entertainment for new audiences while never needing to over-explain. Even with something as simple as the blue lightsaber, the movie just says "this was Luke's lightsaber" which is sufficient to know its significance. But, obviously to anyone with prior knowledge, that lightsaber actually has quite a bit of backstory itself.

Plus, all the aged characters.
 

Davey Cakes

Member
Daisey was godly for her first outing. I mean she has some fn potential.
I honestly haven't been that impressed by young acting talent in a long time.

The main characters were so...animated. They even somehow got Harrison Ford to put in some effort and it showed.

Phenomenal cast.
 

Brakke

Banned
Victim of what?

Capitalism, structural inequality, persistent poverty. However you wanna frame it.

You are looking for immediate satisfaction through a specific reason she is able to do what she did.

No, I'm not. I've said so specifically.

What? How do you like that exchange when she specifically is saying she doesn't know how she did it when your argument is that the audience would have reacted better if more reasons were established why she was able to do what she did?

This question doesn't make sense. I think one thing could've been done better. What does that have to do with liking how a related thing was done? She *should* be surprised at what she just pulled off -- because we all are -- so it's nice she acknowledges it. That's sort of the moment when it turns. It becomes clear either there or shortly thereafter that she's the protagonist. That wasn't clear at the time she hopped in the cockpit.
 
This is why I am never going to buy the 'rey is perfect' argument. Ignoring the inner narrative arc, there are numerous examples of her in moments of weakness. Where she's just a scared girl in the clutches of forces greater than her, be it Kylo Ren or those monsters in the freighter or being chased down by the tie fighters. She doesn't just walk in and win, she struggles for those individual victories through fear and doubt and panic.

I think what it ultimately boils down to is that people have this expectation that the Force is a thing that operates on skill, and that's why the Jedi and Sith are institutions based on Force training.

This couldn't be further from the truth.

The Force operates on faith. And that's why, consistently across both the OT and TFA, you see Luke and Rey struggle the most when they run into doubt.

- Luke doubts he can block the remote's shots with the saber. Obi-Wan suggests he try it without using his vision, which is a signal to the audience that Luke wasn't trying to let the Force guide him to block the shots - he was trying to block them by sight. Once he no longer has that temptation and is forced to rely on Force instinct, he succeeds.

- Luke wants to use the targeting computer to make the shot. But as we saw with his squad leader, the targeting computer doesn't actually succeed at making the shot. Once he decides to let the Force guide him instead of relying on the targeting computer, he succeeds.

- Luke is frustrated that his ship sinks into the swamp in Dagobah. He doesn't believe he can lift it out with the Force; and lo and behold, he doesn't succeed. Yoda's instructions on why he failed basically boil down to it being because he didn't believe it was possible.

- When Rey first encounters Kylo, she's running from accepting the Force. So when Kylo overtakes her, he quickly overpowers her; she's rejecting the call of the Force, and so how in the world was it supposed to come to her aid? It's only when she lets go of that fear and decides to stand up to Kylo with everything she has that she is able to finally resist him.

- When Rey first tries out the mind trick, she sounds hesitant and afraid, and the mind trick fails. It's only when she becomes calm and composed and sure of herself that she succeeds.

- During the lightsaber duel with Kylo, we see Rey trying to fight him the way she fights with her staff - trying to fight in the way that gives her maximum range, using jabs instead of swings, etc. It's only when she realizes that she should rely on the Force - and retreats into Force meditation - that she comes back and wins the fight.
 

Brakke

Banned
The level to which this percieved problem is negatively affecting the overall story isn't enough to necessitate the lifting out of a major set-piece that not only adds a fair amount of excitement and enjoyment to the film but further advances the characterizations of the two leads.

Well I mean I think this is the thing. This movie has a lot of set pieces it awkwardly contrives into the script. This specific one isn't so bad.

When I saw Kylo on the bridge with the sun going out I thought "oh. the whole dumb business about the planet eating the sun was literally only in there so we could have this shot".

I dont understand what Mary Sue means.

Maybe this helps. http://www.themarysue.com/why-the-mary-sue/

I think what it ultimately boils down to is that people have this expectation that the Force is a thing that operates on skill, and that's why the Jedi and Sith are institutions based on Force training.

This couldn't be further from the truth.

The Force operates on faith. And that's why, consistently across both the OT and TFA, you see Luke and Rey struggle the most when they run into doubt.

These ideas aren't exclusive though. Calming yourself and trusting yourself *are* skills you can -- and should -- develop. Mediation is a thing people actively practice.
 

Arthea

Member
I was reading a bit, too lazy to quote posts, too many
How's Rey without a flaw? She has obvious, glaring even psychological problems related to abandonment and family, she lives totally alone, we don't see her having any friendly relations there, a movie doesn't show any and I'm sure she has not any. How is that not a flaw? lol
What's wrong with you people?
And most likely she'll suffer because of this, severely later on.
She's even somewhat cocky, not that I don't like that character trait in her, but it isn't exactly positive, you know.
She tries to defy force or fate or whatever calling her
need I to continue?
She is so good exactly because she is so flawed and so strong, even stubborn at the same time.
 

Savitar

Member
Pod Racing kills whatever new crap TFA brought, though.
QOXYXEn.gif

Hahahaha, no.

No.

No.

The prequels missing so much of what Star Wars felt like and The Force Awakens in comparison hitting those beats really was a revelation.
 

140.85

Cognitive Dissonance, Distilled
lol



Rey flew through a ship she's been in probably hundreds of times, pulled off one lucky manuever and crashed it the rest of the time. Meanwhile Poe is the guy in the Banshee who makes Killtastrophe montages and causes the other team to rage quit.

This is gonna puff your head up pretty bad, but I remember thinking during that Poe scene that ended in Finn saying "thats a damn good pilot!": "He's like the Twilight Gap of X-Wing pilots", lol.

Whether this is indicative of your skill or that I spend too much time on DGAF i'll leave up to you.
 

Jinaar

Member
I just watched RETURN OF THE JEDI and there were some horrible horrible scenes. I think like some that pretty much all of these films are average, but in the minds of many, they jump to another stratosphere of being the most amazing things ever. Which is why I can't understand why people are giving TFA such a hard time when most things are explained in the film but most of you viewers neither watch or listen clearly, as well as what you are nit picking on why TFA is poor at times and not picking on everything the Original Trilogy was poor at as well, and it was poor at ALOT of things.

I for one enjoy the films (I don't believe in the existance of the Prequels though) and don't really need to try to delve into them so deeply because what Star Wars does and does well is deliver a simple story line with like-able characters to enjoy the ride with. Makes for good theatre!
 

140.85

Cognitive Dissonance, Distilled
I just watched RETURN OF THE JEDI and there were some horrible horrible scenes. I think like some that pretty much all of these films are average, but in the minds of many, they jump to another stratosphere of being the most amazing things ever. Which is why I can't understand why people are giving TFA such a hard time when most things are explained in the film but most of you viewers neither watch or listen clearly, as well as what you are nit picking on why TFA is poor at times and not picking on everything the Original Trilogy was poor at as well, and it was poor at ALOT of things.

I for one enjoy the films (I don't believe in the existance of the Prequels though) and don't really need to try to delve into them so deeply because what Star Wars does and does well is deliver a simple story line with like-able characters to enjoy the ride with. Makes for good theatre!

You have generations of fans that have spent years imagining in their fantasies what a perfect Star Wars movie should be like. There's no way it was ever going to satisfy that.
 

NateDog

Member
Glad to know you liked it.

I'm actually quite interested in the opinions of people who watched TFA without seeing any prior Star Wars movie.

It's an enjoyable space fantasy flick as it is but there are many callbacks to the previous movies. Lots of stuff you just wouldn't get or wouldn't understand the significance of until you've seen the events of the OT at the very least.

I guess the movie does a good job of providing entertainment for new audiences while never needing to over-explain. Even with something as simple as the blue lightsaber, the movie just says "this was Luke's lightsaber" which is sufficient to know its significance. But, obviously to anyone with prior knowledge, that lightsaber actually has quite a bit of backstory itself.

Plus, all the aged characters.
Yeah as it went on I noted to myself that there was little that went past my head, obviously there will be some references I'll have missed out in but most of the story was completely fine for me as a newbie (if not all), and by the time it releases to homes I will have seen the other movies so I'll pick up on those.
 

Johndoey

Banned
I'm in this weird sot where I don't like any of the Star Wars films overmuch but I love a lot of the expanded universe stuff,
 

Jinaar

Member
You have generations of fans that have spent years imagining in their fantasies what a perfect Star Wars movie should be like. There's no way it was ever going to satisfy that.

Agreed. It was pretty darn close to being that movie for me, though. I saw it twice and TFA moved me to tears a few times and crazy excitement for the rest. I couldn't ask for anything more.
 

Daemul

Member
Honestly, the only great Star Wars movie is ESB imo, even then it has some of it's own issues. The rest of the six are, eh..

tumblr_n7zzpd30aZ1qzdfwko1_400.gif


My love for Star Wars doesn't come from the movies though, if all I ever paid attention to was the movies I would have lost interest in the franchise long ago. It's the expanded stuff that captures my attention, from the games, to the tv shows, to the books, to the comics etc, that's where you go to find the best of Star Wars imo and that's what has kept my Star Wars candle burning over the years if that makes sense.

I'm in this weird sot where I don't like any of the Star Wars films overmuch but I love a lot of the expanded universe stuff,

107211-Arnold-Schwarzenegger-biceps-h-DXwa.gif
 

Cosmozone

Member
Saw it today. That was okay as expected (knew about J.J.Abrams being involved beforehand) I guess. Unfortunately it couldn't stand clearly above similar blockbusters which is a pity since I wanted more from this classic franchise. Angers me that I liked some Marvel movies better than this.

Liked the lost son best (forgot his name), but he was displayed too weak. At least he should've "won" that fight against supergirl. It would've even helped her character.
 

Arthea

Member
Agreed. It was pretty darn close to being that movie for me, though. I saw it twice and TFA moved me to tears a few times and crazy excitement for the rest. I couldn't ask for anything more.

really? It's not a sarcastic post, I'm genuinely surprised, I liked a movie well enough, but I don't see it as moving, exciting? yes, moving? no
I don't see any SW movie as moving, tbh. I'm not even sure exciting is a right word, rather entertaining I'd say.


I'm in this weird sot where I don't like any of the Star Wars films overmuch but I love a lot of the expanded universe stuff,

It definitely sounds weird to me, I tried to read some books, thought they were horrible, the Clone Wars is boring most of the time, etc.
Then again, I'm probably rather demanding.
 

Brakke

Banned
I'm in this weird sot where I don't like any of the Star Wars films overmuch but I love a lot of the expanded universe stuff,

I don't think that's such a weird spot. My top five Star Wars Things would be A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, Star Tours, the LEGO Tantive IV UCS set, KOTOR, in some order. If we go top ten I only pick up one or maybe two more movies.
 
It definitely sounds weird to me, I tried to read some books, thought they were horrible, the Clone Wars is boring most of the time, etc.
Then again, I'm probably rather demanding.

The (good) star wars books are way closer to being pure science fiction than the movies are. If you lean more towards pure sci-fi I can see why you would prefer them.
 

GhaleonEB

Member

Her character was wasted, but the fact that there is a female captain over the stormtroopers is in and of itself noteworthy. We also see female X-wing pilots and hear female stormtroopers.

Someone pointed out a video a while back that noted, in the original trilogy we don't get a named female character other than Leia until Return of the Jedi (Mon Mothma), and all pilots/troopers are male in the entire OT. Most of the other females are background dancers, etc. TFA shows them as regular troops and through the chain of command (and of course, Rey).
 
Her character was wasted, but the fact that there is a female captain over the stormtroopers is in and of itself noteworthy. We also see female X-wing pilots and hear female stormtroopers.

Someone pointed out a vid a while back that in the original trilogy, we don't get a named female character other than Leia until Return of the Jedi (Mon Mothma), and all pilots/troopers are male in the entire OT. Most of the other females are background dancers, etc. TFA shows them as regular troops and through the chain of command (and of course, Rey).
Plus we had Leia, and Maz (whom I think is really underrated).
 

Surfinn

Member
Her character was wasted, but the fact that there is a female captain over the stormtroopers is in and of itself noteworthy. We also see female X-wing pilots, hear female stormtroopers and of course, Rey.

Someone pointed out a vid a while back that in the original trilogy, we don't get a named female character other than Leia until Return of the Jedi (Mon Mothma), and all pilots/troopers are male in the entire OT. Most of the other females are background dancers, etc. TFA shows them as regular troops and through the chain of command (and of course, Rey).

Funny how that badass scene that was revealed in the second teaser ended up being her getting clocked by Finn/captured, lol. Really wish they would have done at least one scene with her showcasing some combat abilities. I liked the idea someone posted a while back where Phasma engages in melee combat with Finn instead of a stormtrooper; seems like a missed opportunity.

Also, I didn't notice until my GF pointed out in another viewing that there is also a female stormtrooper who reports to Kylo Ren. She's probably of higher status if she's directly reporting to/conversing with him.
 

90sRobots

Member
I dont understand what Mary Sue means.
For this movie, it means, "I'm insecure and am threatened by the depiction of competent women in fantasy-action movies." This argument usually goes hand-in-hand with criticisms with Finn not feeling remorse when he kills his fellow Stormtroopers. Those who argue this will be the first to betray us if a fascist regime ever takes shape.

These dumb space movies have nothing to say about gender. Write 'em all blank and just cast 'em randomly! Rey could totally be a male, Finn a female.

Remember, in the early drafts of ALIEN, Ripley was originally a male until Ridley Scott cast Sigourney Weaver in the role.
 

Arthea

Member
The (good) star wars books are way closer to being pure science fiction than the movies are. If you lean more towards pure sci-fi I can see why you would prefer them.

IDK, maybe I tried wrong books, that was rather long ago I don't remember even which ones I tried to read (I mean I partly remember what I've read but titles are already forgotten), but when I wanted pure sci-fi I preferred to read Clarke for example, that much I remember. Now when I think about it, I kinda still do

that leads to obvious question, which ones of SW books are good?
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Funny how that badass scene that was revealed in the second teaser ended up being her getting clocked by Finn/captured, lol. Really wish they would have done at least one scene with her displaying her combat abilities. I liked the idea someone posted a while back where Phasma engages in melee combat with Finn instead of a stormtrooper; seems like a missed opportunity.
Yeah, this really should have been the case. The fight could have been interrupted by Kylo Ren pulling the division out once they had Rey. Have a regular trooper or one of the mid level ones with a white or red insignia on their shoulder lower the shields.

Bam. Phasma is a capable character, a future rivalry is set up with Finn. Sigh.
 
For this movie, it means, "I'm insecure and am threatened by the depiction of competent women in fantasy-action movies." This argument usually goes hand-in-hand with criticisms with Finn not feeling remorse when he kills his fellow Stormtroopers. Those who argue this will be the first to betray us if a fascist regime ever takes shape.

These dumb space movies have nothing to say about gender. Write 'em all blank and just cast 'em randomly! Rey could totally be a male, Finn a female.

Remember, in the early drafts of ALIEN, Ripley was originally a male until Ridley Scott cast Sigourney Weaver in the role.

Thanks for this.

I did think it was weird that Finn can be so moved by a fellow troopers death, only to turn around and kill them later with no remorse.
 
Her character was wasted, but the fact that there is a female captain over the stormtroopers is in and of itself noteworthy. We also see female X-wing pilots and hear female stormtroopers.

Someone pointed out a video a while back that noted, in the original trilogy we don't get a named female character other than Leia until Return of the Jedi (Mon Mothma), and all pilots/troopers are male in the entire OT. Most of the other females are background dancers, etc. TFA shows them as regular troops and through the chain of command (and of course, Rey).

Yea I was being tongue in cheek about it.
 

Brakke

Banned
For this movie, it means, "I'm insecure and am threatened by the depiction of competent women in fantasy-action movies." This argument usually goes hand-in-hand with criticisms with Finn not feeling remorse when he kills his fellow Stormtroopers. Those who argue this will be the first to betray us if a fascist regime ever takes shape.

These dumb space movies have nothing to say about gender. Write 'em all blank and just cast 'em randomly! Rey could totally be a male, Finn a female.

Remember, in the early drafts of ALIEN, Ripley was originally a male until Ridley Scott cast Sigourney Weaver in the role.

none of this is even coherent. shit post better pls.
 
IDK, maybe I tried wrong books, that was rather long ago I don't remember even which ones I tried to read (I mean I partly remember what I've read but titles are already forgotten), but when I wanted pure sci-fi I preferred to read Clarke for example, that much I remember. Now when I think about it, I kinda still do

that leads to obvious question, which ones of SW books are good?

Anything written by Timothy Zahn. Matthew Stover and James Luceno are both good too.

You are setting your expectations way too high if you go in thinking they will be Arthur C Clarke caliber though.
 

Johndoey

Banned
really? It's not a sarcastic post, I'm genuinely surprised, I liked a movie well enough, but I don't see it as moving, exciting? yes, moving? no
I don't see any SW movie as moving, tbh. I'm not even sure exciting is a right word, rather entertaining I'd say.




It definitely sounds weird to me, I tried to read some books, thought they were horrible, the Clone Wars is boring most of the time, etc.
Then again, I'm probably rather demanding.
I'm kinda into political stuff so a lot of the books touch on that. But also there are approximately a metric shit load of Star Wars books and comics covering everything imaginable so there is almost certainly something out there you would enjoy.
 

Daemul

Member
I don't think that's such a weird spot. My top five Star Wars Things would be A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, Star Tours, the LEGO Tantive IV UCS set, KOTOR, in some order. If we go top ten I only pick up one or maybe two more movies.

If I made a top 10 list ESB would probably be the only movie on it, which has me thinking, maybe I should make a list of my top 10 Star Wars things. It would be really hard though, I like so much of it lol
 
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