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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
OricWindstar
Member
I'd love an RPG set in the years between ROTJ and TFA.
Count Dookkake
Member
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Shuggananas
Banned
Different ships for different uses I guess ?
Also maybe the rebels fleet is pretty fucking weak, we don't really know
admit it, you just wanna see what happened to Luke's Jedi school.
Hopefully they'll show us what happened in VIII.
There are no "Rebels". The Starkiller blast wiped out the Republic fleet. We probably saw all or most of the Resistance: they definitely don't have any capital ships.
HeavyMetalLover91
Member
100% agree. There's nothing worse than a movie giving a giant middle finger to the audience saying 'come back next time LOL!'. Hunger Games were some of the worst offenders but I think TFA gives them a run for their money by a long shot. I get that TFA is supposed to be act 1 of a new trilogy but that doesn't mean that's an excuse to give you so little information so you guarantee people return for the next instalment.
A great example of how to films as part of an arc while providing a decent ending is either both Avengers films or Harry Potter. In the case of HP, each film gives Harry it's own dilemma or scenario, and is resolved by the end of the film (for the most part). Not everything was tied up but typically you were left with a satisfying ending. I loved loved loved TFA but if there was one thing I'm still salty about, it's the bullshit fucking ending. Just like Catching Fire and Mockingjay Part 1, it was a total fuck you and like you said, just bait to ensure people come back for Ep 8.
If there's something that the prequels did right compared to TFA, it wasn't leaving all these bread crumbs all over the place, TPM especially had a nice wrapped up ending. Yeah, you wanted to know what happens next, but it wasn't left on a troll note. Like, imagine if the film ended when Anakin said 'what will happen to me now?' and then cut to credits. That's what TFA felt like but even worse cus there was no dialogue. I'm cool with waiting to see about the origins of Rey, Finn, Snoke and Kylo, but I just wish TFA had handled it a little better. I know they gave us most of Kylo/Ben's story but even that was very light on details. At least Ep 8 is only 18 months away, unlike the 3 years between each film in the OT and PT. Sometimes though all this mystery and speculation is tiresome. It's worked for Disney in the sense it gets people talking and speculating (on Facebook I've seen so many fan theories posted - Rey Kenobi LOL) but it can be a double edged sword, especially when people's imagination can run far wilder than what will usually be the case, and then you get people feeling short changed when it will turn out to be nothing but Rey Skywalker.
Personally, I don't see the problem in not answering all the questions raised.
We don't demand this of, for example, fantasy novel series, why is this a standard the first movie in a trilogy must be held to? Especially since the other movies for this were ASSURED.
Yeah, if you don't know you are going to be able to make more movies than this would be more obnoxious, but if any franchise has earned the right to defer some answers to later movies, its Star Wars.
I was just never bothered by not learning everything about Rey RIGHT NOW. She still had a satisfying character arc, and plenty of setup for later movies.
We don't demand this of, for example, fantasy novel series, why is this a standard the first movie in a trilogy must be held to? Especially since the other movies for this were ASSURED.
Yeah, if you don't know you are going to be able to make more movies than this would be more obnoxious, but if any franchise has earned the right to defer some answers to later movies, its Star Wars.
I was just never bothered by not learning everything about Rey RIGHT NOW. She still had a satisfying character arc, and plenty of setup for later movies.
Shuggananas
Banned
Yeah I call the resistance rebels, don't know why, always seemed to be the same entity in star wars to me
Fata1moose
Banned
That was the whole point of my post that it's an example of her force abilities. The first one in the movie, I think.
HeavyMetalLover91
Member
I just think a film should be able to stand on it's own without leaving the viewer feeling unsatisfied. If filmmakers want more time to tell a story, that's what TV is for. That's a format built for longer storytelling. You are right though, Star Wars has earned it's right to do that, it's just a trend I don't want to see other film's start to follow (and it will).
Who "we"? Lots of A Song of Ice and Fire people were disappointed with A Dance with Dragons for basically failing to resolve the threads it opened and for neglecting the threads that preceded it. Everyone in the fandom is at least a little nervous that GRR won't finish the series before he dies, since he's left so many things wide open. Lots of people just don't even read fantasy series because of their reputation for intense and unending serialization.
The useful standard isn't resolve "everything", but rather resolve "enough".
heliosRAzi
Banned
Not everything needs to be answered and it's great to set up plot threads for the next movie, but offloading chunks of information for the main character to the next movie is not smart.
Chuckie
Member
I just realized reading the post you quoted that they are called the Resistance...and not the Rebels haha.
The Rebellion ushered in the Reoublic which funds the Resistance.
Why does this movie even pretend these are different things? Why can't it be bothered to name the new thing something that doesn't sound like the old thing... It's like going out of its way to obfuscate things, lol.
But I didn't leave feeling unsatisfied? I don't think any of the open questions are actually critical for considering TFA a "complete story"
Yeah, we don't know where Rey came from originally, but in the context of this story right now, that is irrelevant so who cares?
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
I still can't believe how well Boyega performed when Rey gets captured by Ren. The way he drops his weapon and starts running towards the ship, screaming his lungs out while the song "The Abduction" runs in the background and tie/x-ships are getting destroyed in the scenery.
Top fucking tier scene. Boyega is so, so unbeliebably good.
Top fucking tier scene. Boyega is so, so unbeliebably good.
1) Why did Rey go to Luke? It's easy to watch it and say "well of course she went to Luke" but it's hard to actually say why she went. Is she seeking power so she can destroy the Order? Does she want guidance about resisting the Dark Side pull she felt while she was fighting Kylo (did she even feel the Dark Side then?)? She "woke" up to this power but we don't really have any idea at all how she feels about having it.
2) What does Kylo think about having killed his father? Did that moment shake his shit and make him realize the Dark Side is for chumps? Or did it give him the fuel he needs to shut down his benevolent impulses? What was Kylo's previous relationship with Han? Before Kylo's fall, was Han loving and attentive or neglectful and mean? Either answer to that question has huge bearing on what the killing meant to Kylo.
3) What is the balance of power in the Galaxy now? Is the First Order a) beaten or b) rebuffed into a standoff or c) victorious despite losing Starkiller?
Look at this movie's main characters (hell, any of its characters) and ask: what is this person's top-priority goal now? Can we answer this for anyone but Hux? Even for Snoke, does he care more about conquering systems or killing Luke? Does he prefer to kill Rey or seduce her? Why does he even have opinions about Jedi at all?
These are all questions that will clearly be (damn well better be) answered in the next movie and which will have huge implications for how we think about the events of this movie. You can leave A New Hope basically comfortable about where things stand going forward: Luke's a hero, Han's a roguish snark with a good heart, the Empire is hurt but still clearly in power, Leia resumes her Rebel leadership position, Vader is alive and probably angry-embarrassed. Empire revealing Luke's father was a cool thing that forced a re-examination of the previous film, but it was a total surprise. This movie demands a sequel so its events can be contextualized in the first place.
Because she accepted her destiny.
This doesn't really matter right now? I'm not sure why you think we need to know this now. Its obvious that he didn't get what he wanted from doing it, and thats all that is needed at the moment.
Its clear from Snoke's dialog that they aren't "beaten", and again I don't see how this information is critical to the story at hand. Starkiller Base was really just a driver for the character arcs, which is perhaps the movie's biggest difference from ANH
I don't think this is A) a bad thing or B) Nearly as critical as you seem to be making it out to be
HeavyMetalLover91
Member
That's cool that for you, if you found the movie to be complete. I'm not trying to deride any personal satisfaction you had with he film. I'm just making the point that a lot of unanswered elements of TFA rely on watching the sequels. TPM and ANH both work as singular films that, like the point you are making about TFA, could be considered complete and don't leave a huge number of questions answered, like I said in my previous post, it's more of a 'ok cool, what happens next?' scenario, rather than 'why did X happen in TFA?, 'who is Y?' 'Where did Z come from?'.
I don't mind that we don't know where Rey comes from, an argument could be made about that for any character introduced in ANH, eg. where did Chewie come from? Who cares right?
My issue with this one, is that it was teased all the way through pre-release, with us being drip-fed stuff over a year, only to get to the actual movie, and still have stuff teased in our face and more hints but nothing concrete. I personally just find it frustrating. I'd rather they not make a big deal of it and have it revealed naturally through the film itself instead of 'hey guys I bet you're wondering who Rey really is? Well come watch Episode 8 and find out!'.
EscoBlades
Ubisoft Marketing
Couldn't agree more. One of a few issues I had with the movie.
I don't think its very fair to ding a movie for its marketing, while simultaneously saying it shouldn't rely on later movies to answer questions it raises.
Like, if you are disappointed like that then ok, fine, but it feels like more of an issue with your own expectations than what the movie itself did
Blackthorn
"hello?" "this is vagina"
I bought the Visual Dictionary before my third viewing and the pages on the state of the galaxy provide some context that really should have been in the film.
Even just a single line about the New Republic's demilitarisation would explain so much about why the Resistance is so underequipped and why the New Order seems to take everyone by surprise.
Even just a single line about the New Republic's demilitarisation would explain so much about why the Resistance is so underequipped and why the New Order seems to take everyone by surprise.
jamesmccloud
Member
+1. It reminds me worryingly about another JJ product, Lost, where endless setup was built without creators knowing where to go with it, leading to disastrous results. Same plagued the rebooted BSG, and it looks like something similar is happening with HBO's Game of Thrones.
It's like the writers only have time to write a really good build-up, and the people in the production chain don't care if the whole things isn't planned ahead. Then when the sequels/latter seasons are in production there just isn't time anymore for polish and the wheels start falling off. But right now I can only hope SW doesn't suffer from this.
The point about ending of ROTJ losing it's feel of triumph within the very first minutes of TFA is true in my view as well. Shame!
HeavyMetalLover91
Member
Nah, I knew full well that we wouldn't get given everything to us served on a platter, it was obvious they were gonna save some stuff for the sequels. I just didn't like the style it was all presented in. The last few minutes of TFA with Luke had no business being that way other than to get people worked up for the next instalment. I think if there had been a line of dialogue from Luke to Rey, something that gave some implication to whether he knew her or not (or if she recognised him) then people like myself wouldn't have felt it be such a slap in the face. It ended in a pretty similar fashion to Catching Fire and I just don't think it's a good trend for Hollywood to get into but w/e. Just my personal take on it.
The Librarian
Banned
Why do you keep trolling like this?
is there any reason Mon Mothma would do something like this though?
She led the military style briefing on the attack on Death Star II in ROTJ and seemed connected to the Rebel intelligence apparatus "many bothans died".
Then she becomes chancellor of the New Republic and first order of business is to demilitarize the whole Republic? Just not buying that.
How were they sure there was not a missing "ghost fleet" of a couple dozen Stardestroyers in some outer system? Did every Imperial Admiral just give up immediately? Feels like if they did, it definitely was more of a "the Fuhrer is dead so the war is over" scenario than TFA makes it look to be.
How did the First Order come into being then if the Imperial Navy got all but dissolved? And if it didn't and there were remnants everwhere who in their right mind would dissolve the Rebel alliance's military capability?
Just feels like weak sauce world building that stems from one goal, which was to make it smaller and simpler again and less about politics, so every faction and character is basically back to where they were around ANH, cause reasons.
Shuggananas
Banned
Just read that Serkis confirmed Snoke isn't Plagueis, that's news ?
Not that I doubted he was, it would have been stupid
Not that I doubted he was, it would have been stupid
Blackthorn
"hello?" "this is vagina"
I like that, though. I'm glad the movie was small scale and can gradually increase over the trilogy instead of making the new Star Wars bigger in every way. That's how we end up with the masturbatory, no-stakes opening of Episode 3.
You may find it a weak excuse but the results are worth it, I feel.
I find the demilitarisation fine, I don't care enough to get into the minutiae of how it came about and why. I just think it should have been mentioned at some point to explain the current situation. And now that the New Republic has been destroyed we've missed our opportunity for that context to be provided in the films themselves.
That was a great read. I kind of associated a couple of absurd nitpickers in these threads with Kylo too. Ah, Darth Vader, those were the good times, when the force was learned in school and everything was explained in written form ...
Am I the only one here that would love to have atleast 1 major city (coruscant like) scene in episodes VIII or IX?
If there is a thing I enjoyed in the prequels is that the universe was greatly expanded in that sense.
And no I dont mean to go again through the politics and all that crap, but just to see the current state of the galaxy, to have something fresh.
If there is a thing I enjoyed in the prequels is that the universe was greatly expanded in that sense.
And no I dont mean to go again through the politics and all that crap, but just to see the current state of the galaxy, to have something fresh.
You mean just like how JJ and everyone else confirmed Cumberbatch wasn't Kahn in Star Trek Into Darkness?
Chuckie
Member
Snoke = Plagueis confirmed!
True, but ESB is the movie that leaves the most questions unanswered and it's generally acknowledged as the best Star Wars movie. I understand being personally annoyed by a lack of closure, but cliffhangers creates suspense, and that leads to awesome conversations (like this one).
One thing I really don't understand how it made the final cut is the sequence during Maz's Castle raid where Han disarms chewie while they are surrounded by troopers just to make a joke that has literally been done in a much more organic way 20 minutes earlier.
I really don't get what JJ was thinking keeping that in while cutting any explanation where some characters disappear to.
I really don't get what JJ was thinking keeping that in while cutting any explanation where some characters disappear to.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
And JJ ate shit for it, and apologized for it, and Kennedy said that sorta shit isn't happening on her watch.
People can stop bringing it up like it means anything at Lucasfilm.
Also, this is the first one of these threads to live until its 10th day without being locked.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
That was your expectation though.
The motivating factors for all the major characters was "Where's Luke?"
By the end of that movie that question was answered, and we got our main character coming face to face with the Master himself.
The movie had a clear goal and we reached that goal by the end of the movie.
Yeah we want more answers, and while it did setup questions for a sequel, the movie ended properly by answering the first line in the opening.
Sorcerer
Member
If Snoke was Plagueis, why would he need the cover name?
Why not just identify himself as Plagueis?
Wasn't he somewhat of a mystery in the prequels anyway?
I get Palpatine/Sidous because he was playing two factions against each other, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
That seems way less the fault of the film, to me. Nobody seems to hold this against Empire, for example. Star Wars ends with a literal medal ceremony and onscreen standing ovation for our heroes. The very next film, they're all fucked and freezing to death on a giant ice rock.
I do sort of dislike that TFA kind of retcons ROTJ's happy ending in favor of a slightly more "darkest timeline" route. However the more I think about it I don't feel like the state of the galaxy in TFA contradicts how things were at the end of ROTJ. Everything after Jedi probably went really well for a while, I got the impression that the First Order didn't rise up until a while after the fall of the Empire. And I also got the impression that Luke had only been in exile for a few years leading up to the movie.
Future PhaZe
Member
Why would he advertise that he's alive? The Empire would have hunted him down while Sidious was alive, and Luke would have done the same. It's possible he is/wasn't strong enough yet to be ready for any such encounters.
Inferno313
Banned
Yeah, without digging too deep into the new EU stuff yet, I got the vibe from the film that there was maybe 20 years of peace time, and things went south within the last 10.
The reason I think things with Luke's academy went south relatively recently is because when we see Kylo Ren in Rey's vision he looks (in terms of physical build) basically identical to how Kylo looks in the present time, which gives me the impression that Luke has only been in exile for maybe 5 years.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
It's funny you imagine a happy perfect ending being "older" now, than you were when you first watched the saga.
Life isn't a fairy tale.
A Film called Star Wars was bound to have conflict later, regardless of how happily one of the movies ends.
At least these characters lived for the majority of the 30 years in relative peace, despite the family feud.
Disney has said they have the story mapped out with JJ's help, but they have it open enough for the directors to add in their own flare.
It was really good, thanks.
VistraNorrez
Member
That question was answered as soon as the map was completed. They didn't need to show Luke at all. I think I would have preferred an ESB ending of we are off to find our friend while the other characters recover from their lose/devastation with the promise of meeting again. They could have had a funeral/memorial for Han and the Republic and ended with Rey and crew leaving for Luke.
The reason ESBs ending has a modicum of closure is because it ends at the end of a scene. It's very clearly a parting of ways. It's like leaving a friend's house at the end of a party. You don't want it to end and you know you will see them again, but it's time and you've said goodbye. TFA ends with 2 characters meeting each other. It's the start of something, not the end.
But yea, of course it was great to see Luke. I understand why they showed him, but it was a television episode ending (LOST), not a movie ending.
The Librarian
Banned
Um...that would make Rey 12 years old.
I honestly thought when the Falcon took off with Rey, that's when the music would hit. The luke stuff felt like an after credits scene.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
I agree with everything you said except for the map answering the question.
Sometimes in movies, X doesn't mark the spot.
I'm also a Luke fan, so I needed to see Luke.
Who said Rey was left on Jakku as a result of Ren's actions?
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