Yeah, Pablo said on Twitter that the massacre was "more recent" than 15-14 years ago, which is what we were all going with for a while when we assumed that Rey was a student there. Since New Republic: Bloodline comes out in a few months and takes place 6 years before TFA, I'm thinking that may be when the betrayal happens.
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
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Yeah, Pablo said on Twitter that the massacre was "more recent" than 15-14 years ago, which is what we were all going with for a while when we assumed that Rey was a student there. Since New Republic: Bloodline comes out in a few months and takes place 6 years before TFA, I'm thinking that may be when the betrayal happens.
HeavyMetalLover91
Member
I absolutely agree. But I feel ESB was handled better in it's technique. I love cliffhangers and genuine feelings of 'so what happens next' but this time just felt a little more on the frustrating side.
That in itself, yes was satisfying and like you pointed out, the end of the film does provide an answer to the opening dilemma of the film - Luke Skywalker has vanished. That's fine. It was more of the style that it was done that wasn't quite to my taste. Imagine ESB like this - Vader reveals he is Luke's father to him, he falls, the film then cuts to black and credits roll. In this scenario, yeah, we're given the same information, but it would be much more of an abrupt ending. Those 5 or 10 minutes after the reveal let the audience process the information and you're given a bit more of a farewell. Yes, it still does the 'wait for episode 6!' thing that I'm not a fan of, but it's more of the film-making style here that I'm taking issue with. Just maybe a short exchange between Luke and Rey would have gone down a bit better than a booming soundtrack over just a sad faced Luke looking at her. I dunno, I still loved the film, and I'll be over it when the next few films are out, I just don't think its a technique that the film industry should keep using going forward. EDIT: See below
This puts my thoughts and feelings into words much better than I could. My sentiments exactly.
Aye. It's shortly after this scene that Snoke tells Ren that there's been an awakening; I've assumed that was it.
I think a bit of dissonance is taking hold in that audiences walking out of the theater after ESB felt very similar to how audiences felt after TFA, whereas audiences who didn't see ESB in theaters had the instant gratification of watching ROTJ immediately afterward available to them. It is some very interesting stuff to observe
I will say for my own part, though my opinion could change given unsatisfactory answers in the following two films, I am glad that TFA did not hand out any more information than it did or make any attempt to "wrap things up" in a singular story. It is the beginning chapter of a trilogy and feels like one.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
I can see your point.
It's definitely a TV technique.
But at the same time, I think the way it was shot with the spinning camera movement got to me more than the cliffhanger ending.
I know there will be more movies, so I have to wait. And even though that kind of "ending right before it starts" is usually done in television, I can't fault them for trying. Especially since we got the main question answered.
They've announced it as a trilogy, so I was prepared for something to leave me wanting more.
I guess Disney really really wants us to see the next one.
Chill out Disney, we will.
VistraNorrez
Member
I considered that, but really is Star Wars going to pull that? The map was too big of a deal to be wrong. Plus if they truly are planning out this Trilogy and treating the first film as a setup, more so than any other in the Saga, then they really didn't have to show Luke. You see people defending the openness of this film with "the sequels will answer it", then seeing Luke was even more unnecessary.
But if they had to show him, I think the scene should have went on a little longer. Even just a minute. Luke could have taken the lightsaber and said something like, "I've been expecting you." Rey could've have still cried. Luke could say how he has a lot to talk about and teach her, and then they walk off together into the sunset or something. It would have atleast been an ending.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Still maintain that the ending should've been the Falcon leaving the Resistance system followed by a solo shot of Luke on the island. Same sequence, just without Rey/Falcon arriving.
Assuming a timeskip, Hamill is going to look different at the start, and we will not get the 1st words between them or anything like that.
AlimNassor
Banned
It's weaksauce because people want everything handed to them. You want the entire fucking move to spend endless monologues on everything that happened. Without the emperor, the Empire tore itself apart due to infighting, and the new republic constantly winning. The battle of Jakku was the turning point, and the final death blow to the Empire. What was left went into hiding,or surrendered.
The republics military was never dissolved. The new republic didn't want to be involved in a war. It was too bogged down by politics. The resistance are a private military being "funded" by the Republic.
QuantumZebra
Member
Precisely.
It may be assumptive, but at some point you can tell there is an "x" factor there and that sexism is likely it with certain people.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
We want answers, but having a small info dump or even a line of dialogue wouldn't satisfy any of us the way we think it would. I personally think that was the right way to end it. Especially since I doubt we are going to start the next movie right where we left off.
I'm expecting the next film to start a couple years later with Finn waking up, and we (the audience) follow him on his journey to reunite with everyone.
And although we may get some answers on Kylo and his betrayal to his Uncle, Rey still won't know why she was abandoned until she gets back into the fight and confronts Kylo or Snoke.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I did my part.
I think that really does cut to the heart of a lot of arguments. The Mary Sue thread in particular put a spotlight on it.
Getting ready to read that analysis, but it's also amusing how Kylo who throws temper tantrums when he doesn't get his way, has an almost fanatical/religious clinging to the past (OT fans dismissive of Ep7).. one that doesn't make any allowances for something new (Rey).
So, when things don't go how Kylo expected things to (Fans who expected to see Luke kicking ass for 2 hours) they lose it and lash out.
So, when things don't go how Kylo expected things to (Fans who expected to see Luke kicking ass for 2 hours) they lose it and lash out.
kinoki
Illness is the doctor to whom we pay most heed; to kindness, to knowledge, we make promise only; pain we obey.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Kylo Ren, intentional or not (and I believe it was somewhat intentional) is a great metatextual commentary on shitty Star Wars fans.
In a trilogy that will (hopefully) be about moving on from the mistakes of the past, it makes sense that the villain of the piece is a super-fan who is determined to learn the wrong lessons from everything that's happened in Star Wars.
In a trilogy that will (hopefully) be about moving on from the mistakes of the past, it makes sense that the villain of the piece is a super-fan who is determined to learn the wrong lessons from everything that's happened in Star Wars.
I've made the joke before that Kylo Ren is a caricature of the man children who make up part of the Star Wars fanbase, with Han representing Lucas as the disappointing father figure.
Is it canon now that Mon Mothma was the one ordering demilitarization or non-involvement? I would feel better if she weren't. She was the de-facto leader of the rebel alliance and led the briefing for assault on DSII. Now years later there are new stardestroyers operating openly, the First Order trains Stormtroopers from birth (so has to be in existence for at least 20 years) and they have millions of troops and the Republic is back to being bogged down like they were during the prequels?
The First Order has trained its stormtroopers from birth for 20+ years though already as the film showed.
So there was no 20 years of peace.
Makes me wonder what his character arc will be from here on out. I don't actually mind a redemption arc for him, but it seems like the obvious choice. On the other hand, him doubling down on this stupidity and becoming more of a man child isn't a path that might work a second time.
I'll laugh if he tries to say Rey's abilities were bullshit in some way though. That will basically cement the metatextual read on him
That's a good find, and it helps explain why they got Claudia Gray to do it.
Very interesting.
The Han representing Lucas thing would have more weight to it if they went into detail about Han being a shitty dad
Just wait for the inevitable "I am Kylo Ren" movement come VIII's release.
There was a peace treaty signed with the remnants of the Empire. The First Order broke off and grew its army in secret.
it might be a bit dark for star wars but I think someone said it here that if he realizes the error of his ways and falls on his sword (light saber) that it might be a fitting end for him.
there isn't really coming back after what he did.
I think the next logical step for him should be to double down on trying to become Neo Vader. Have him become so obsessed with getting Vader-Senpai to notice him that he ends up going way further into the Dark Side than Anakin/Vader ever did.
"She didn't earn such power, Supreme Leader. I worked hard for mine!"
The Han representing Lucas thing would have more weight to it if they went into detail about Han being a shitty dad
Well, Lucas was effectively sacrificed
And when confronted with his son's stupidity, he goes back to what he knows he's good at even if he's not so good at it(?) (read: Lucas going back to indie film roots [smuggling], distancing himself from the films/fans[kylo])
So who's Leia?
Well, Lucas was effectively sacrificed
And when confronted with his son's stupidity, he goes back to what he knows he's good at even if he's not so good at it(?) (read: Lucas going back to indie film roots [smuggling], distancing himself from the films/fans[kylo])
So who's Leia?
Kathleen Kennedy?
Miles Quaritch
Member
I'm wondering, is Rey more powerful/has a stronger connection to the force than Anakin?
Could she be another force child like Anakin? Was Anakin even a force child?
Could she be another force child like Anakin? Was Anakin even a force child?
I'd straight up love them to recton Anakin being a Force Jesus. That was always dumb as hell.
I think it's possible she could have a more powerful connection to the force than Anakin, considering how quickly she picked up certain things.
Well, Lucas was effectively sacrificed
And when confronted with his son's stupidity, he goes back to what he knows he's good at even if he's not so good at it(?) (read: Lucas going back to indie film roots [smuggling], distancing himself from the films/fans[kylo])
So who's Leia?
Lucas is more ROTJ Palpatine.
-He had visions, thought he knew how things would turn out. (The prequels, and that everyone would like them)
-Felt he could get Luke (the fans) to turn and side with him
-When Luke (the fans) didn't side with him he lashed out (force lightning'd the fuck out of the OT with updates in newer releases)
-His arrogance was his undoing
This also means Disney = Vader
Please no.
QuantumZebra
Member
I'm seeing a valiant sacrifice to return him to the light in Ep. IX and take out Snoke. Or maybe they will pull the rug on us and have Kylo kill Snoke and go batshit dark-side on everyone.
I get the feeling they are heavily hinting at her being Luke's daughter and possibly/likely the most powerful of all the Skywalkers. There are too many hints towards it (while not throwing it in people's face) for it to be a long-con red herring IMO.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Peace in the sense there wasn't a war.
The Republic was busy worrying over politics, while The First Order slowly amassed power, over the years, before committing an act of war (destroying the Senate).
Technically speaking (and this is really nitpicky) I don't think we know if Mothma is the one who authorized the stand down. I haven't read the Visual Dictionary so I don't know if there's any information in there, but in Aftermath she proposes the idea of reducing the military by 90% after victory against the Empire is secured and instead relying on member states' planetary defense forces in an effort to prevent super centralization like under the Empire. One of the first acts of the new Senate is also rescinding the emergency powers that were still in effect from the time of the Clone Wars, which allowed Palpatine to use the Grand Army of the Republic. At the end of Lost Stars, following Jakku, Mothma does not decrease the size of the military but actually keeps it on war footing for the time being. But unless she is assassinated or something, it's reasonable to assume that after the Concordance is signed she gives the order to demilitarize.
This would be more interesting if she is tempted by the dark side, while Kylo sways back to the light.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Kylo going to the light in any way isn't interesting to me. We've seen that happen. The entire six movies preceding this one were retroactively made to be about that exact thing.
Kylo reacting to the light inside him by trying to go to the dark as hard as he can is more interesting. That's a thing we've never seen from a Star Wars villain before. We've seen one turn, and we've seen one already in control at pretty much all times until the very, very end. We've never seen an ambitious, half-crazy dickhead on the come-up.
Patrick Bateman becomes Tony Montana. That's the arc I wanna see for Kylo Ren.
So far as Rey goes, darkside temptation will likely be a minor thread, but I don't imagine it'll be followed up too strongly. I could see Johnson however pursuing one of the muted threads from earlier drafts of the film where Luke is "changed" somehow.
I just really like the idea that this trilogy is about Skywalker making sure the best parts of himself are carried on in future generations, but everything else gets left behind - including his lineage.
Which would necessitate that Rey isn't actually his blood relation. Doesn't mean she still can't be his daughter, though.
Kylo reacting to the light inside him by trying to go to the dark as hard as he can is more interesting. That's a thing we've never seen from a Star Wars villain before. We've seen one turn, and we've seen one already in control at pretty much all times until the very, very end. We've never seen an ambitious, half-crazy dickhead on the come-up.
Patrick Bateman becomes Tony Montana. That's the arc I wanna see for Kylo Ren.
So far as Rey goes, darkside temptation will likely be a minor thread, but I don't imagine it'll be followed up too strongly. I could see Johnson however pursuing one of the muted threads from earlier drafts of the film where Luke is "changed" somehow.
I just really like the idea that this trilogy is about Skywalker making sure the best parts of himself are carried on in future generations, but everything else gets left behind - including his lineage.
Which would necessitate that Rey isn't actually his blood relation. Doesn't mean she still can't be his daughter, though.
VistraNorrez
Member
I don't think his works at all for the simple fact that Lucas was never that confident. Remember he thought Close Encounters would make more money than Star Wars. He was worried Yoda would sink Empire and he pretty much new Ewoks were going or be poorly received by older fans. And in the TPM documentary he verbalizes twice that it could flop. He never seemed to care about pleasing fans (especially when you know, there were no Star Wars fans when the first movie came out). His obsession was with telling his story.
He also started messing with the OT before the prequels.
I admire him for it.
Inferno313
Banned
Peace time means a time without military conflict. It doesn't mean the bad guys weren't off doing shady shit in the unknown regions.
Lifejumper
Member
So kylo went apeshit on luke recently on the timeline? Thats interesting. That means Rey was dropped of before the attack on the jedi.
For me various factors make it slightly complicated but growing up I loved Luke and he still remains my favorite SW character. But I really love Rey as well and cannot wait to see how her character grows the next two movies.
Great words by the way!
Chuckie
Member
I wasn't being serious.
Although his cover name could be to hide from Sidious.
Sidious supposedly killed Plagueis.... he survived, but was weakened of course.
Toke on another name and disappeared.
I am just making shit up
Skywalker privilege in action...
I never really understood this perspective. I get that it's respectable in a sense that he did what he wanted to do (instead of catering to fans) but I would have truly admired him if he didn't continue "his story" in such a careless way. There's a million ways to tell a story and he chose the most uninteresting and lifeless route to do so. If you strip away the CGI and visual effects (which would have been much better received had there been good execution with the story/characters), there's hardly a plot worth exploring and it's hard to care about any of the characters. I admire what he initially created and his original vision, but what came after made me lose respect. It was just flat out poorly done, regardless of who's vision it was.
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