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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

Interfectum

Member
You're wrong about disliking Anakin being the "whole point"; we are SUPPOSED to like him so we can feel for him and his internal struggle. That doesn't mean we have to like every decision he makes, but part of the heartbreak should have been a character we love fall to the dark side. That's the whole point. In Anakin's case, there is no black or white; he was always conflicted, even as Darth Vader. We're not supposed to like him once he turns, but the point was to suffer his struggle with him, as an audience. Otherwise, what was the point of the prequels? They were centered around how and why Anakin fell to the dark side. Star Wars was never centered around the wars themselves, but rather around a family and their place within the galaxy.. even when George was in control.

You're damn right about Anakin storming the temple with clone troops. Visually and metaphorically.. that was the best scene in the entire 3 episodes by FAR. Loved it.

Yup. What's crazy to me is when I saw that final scene in Episode 3 when he finally put on Vader's mask, it totally felt unearned. Unearned... after three movies. Anakin went from "I'm a dumb, ill-tempered little shit." to standing ominously looking at the building of the death star. It's a complete disconnect. The minute he becomes Darth Vader it's not even believable that he was ever Anakin from Episode 2 or 3. It feels like two completely different characters with no gradient in between.
 
TR-8R is going to somehow end up being brought back in the sequels, isn't he? He's one of, if not the most talked about character from the movie.

I kind of doubt it. Script has already been written, they start filming like..this month I think.

I can't imagine they would change something this late, just to satiate an internet meme.

But if they are updating the website with info on him....I could see him showing up in 9 I guess.

(If it means that Finn gets another shot at him with a LS though...I'm all aboard!)
 
Well, it was. They took the music from the end of "Jedi Steps" and placed it over that scene.

that edit could go viral if the right entertainment site shares it with a headline like "Is this how The Force Awakens should REALLY have ended?"

Ha, I don't pay that much attention soundtracks, and since they did a good job with keeping the Falcon's sound effects I didn't notice.
 

Interfectum

Member
I kind of doubt it. Script has already been written, they start filming like..this month I think.

I can't imagine they would change something this late, just to satiate an internet meme.

But if they are updating the website with info on him....I could see him showing up in 9 I guess.

(If it means that Finn gets another shot at him with a LS though...I'm all aboard!)

I'm guessing he gets a quick cameo or something... perhaps even a comic book spinoff. I doubt they do much with him.
 

Surfinn

Member
Question (sorry if it's been answered before):

Why didn't everyone, or at least all the main characters, go to see Luke? Was it explained why only the Falcon, Rey, Chewie and R2 left to find the most important person in the galaxy? Why wouldn't Leia want to go?

Yup. What's crazy to me is when I saw that final scene in Episode 3 when he finally put on Vader's mask, it totally felt unearned. Unearned... after three movies. Anakin went from "I'm a dumb, ill-tempered little shit." to standing ominously looking at the building of the death star. It's a complete disconnect. The minute he becomes Darth Vader it's not even believable that he was ever Anakin from Episode 2 or 3. It feels like two completely different characters with no gradient in between.

Yeah, the ending definitely felt rushed, even if it was edited well. Episode 3 should have been completely dedicated to Anakin's turn. I think it was supposed to be, but it sure didn't feel like it with how quickly things ended.
 

Interfectum

Member
Question (sorry if it's been answered before):

Why didn't everyone, or at least all the main characters, go to see Luke? Was it explained why only the Falcon, Rey, Chewie and R2 left to find the most important person in the galaxy? Why wouldn't Leia want to go?

Leia is the leader of the Resistance, right? She probably stayed behind to help salvage what's left of the New Republic and prepare for whatever comes next.
 
I kind of doubt it. Script has already been written, they start filming like..this month I think.

I can't imagine they would change something this late, just to satiate an internet meme.

But if they are updating the website with info on him....I could see him showing up in 9 I guess.

(If it means that Finn gets another shot at him with a LS though...I'm all aboard!)
Wasn't Phasma added pretty late in the process for TFA?

Everything about his turn to the Dark Side just felt so rushed and un-fulfilling.
Luke's momentary turn in ROTJ was 1000x better.
 

Fencedude

Member
What a weirdly prescriptive attitude. You should broaden your film-consumption horizons, there's a ton of super worthwhile films out there that don't take characters or acting as their primary project.

I'm not a film buff, and I actually do like expansive worlds with lots of technology and lore, but the prequels did a shitty job of that ON TOP of having crap acting and crap characters.

I don't care how good your "world" is if I don't like any of the characters inhabiting it or care what happens to them.
 
Yup. What's crazy to me is when I saw that final scene in Episode 3 when he finally put on Vader's mask, it totally felt unearned. Unearned... after three movies. Anakin went from "I'm a dumb, ill-tempered little shit." to standing ominously looking at the building of the death star. It's a complete disconnect. The minute he becomes Darth Vader it's not even believable that he was ever Anakin from Episode 2 or 3. It feels like two completely different characters with no gradient in between.

And then there's that annoying little kid who can't act in the first movie.
Why does he have the same name?
He sure bears no resemblance visually or personality wise to the nobend who can't act we had in movies 2 and 3.
 
that edit could go viral if the right entertainment site shares it with a headline like "Is this how The Force Awakens should REALLY have ended?"
This is definitely going to happen. Give it three days.

But yeah, you've gotta have Luke at the end there. That edit isn't bad by any means and I could've lived with it, but the very first new piece of info you get is "Luke Skywalker has vanished." For all the other things the movie didn't answer, I'm glad it at least tied up the first mystery it gave us.
 
I thought the prequels were awful, but it wasn't because I thought the cast sucked (Hayden was pretty bad, although that could also be attributed to the terrible dialogue). The cast of the prequels is damn talented. MacGregor was a great choice for young Obi-Wan, and I'd definitely like to see him reprise the role, and maybe get some good material to work with. The cast of the prequels certainly wasn't why the movies were mediocre/awful to watch.

Agree with this. The cast of the prequels was fine, even Hayden. With good material and a director who likes actors, any of them would be fine.
 
This is definitely going to happen. Give it three days.

But yeah, you've gotta have Luke at the end there. That edit isn't bad by any means and I could've lived with it, but the very first new piece of info you get is "Luke Skywalker has vanished." For all the other things the movie didn't answer, I'm glad it at least tied up the first mystery it gave us.

It kinda makes the ending to TFA feel more like the ending to ESB. One of the heroes is hurt and in medical. Chewie and a new hero leave in the Falcon to go get a lost hero.
 
Agree with this. The cast of the prequels was fine, even Hayden. With good material and a director who likes actors, any of them would be fine.
I've been hearing people say this a lot lately, but does anyone actually have a source that shows Hayden can act? Genuinely asking.

It kinda makes the ending to TFA feel more like the ending to ESB. One of the heroes is hurt and in medical. Chewie and a new hero leave in the Falcon to go get a lost hero.
True. I do think it could work, but, for me at least, I already wish this movie had been more standalone than it is, so I'm glad we got him at the end.
 
I've been hearing people say this a lot lately, but does anyone actually have a source that shows Hayden can act? Genuinely asking.

I thought he was unequivocally great in Shattered Glass.

He even had moments in II and III. His "what have I done" moment was solid, I feel.

And as Sephzilla said, his turn with the sand people was good. He can act. He's never going to win an Oscar but he can do it.
 

Surfinn

Member
TR-8R is going to somehow end up being brought back in the sequels, isn't he? He's one of, if not the most talked about character from the movie.

From the Star Wars.com article:

"Let’s hope we haven’t seen the last of Nines. Or TR-8R. Who wouldn’t want to see round two…and all the memes it could inspire?"

Kind of interesting, though I'm not sure how much you can read into it.
 

Fencedude

Member
That makes sense but wouldn't she at least immediately want to go, or express that?

As a mature adult who understands that you can't always do what you most want to, she understands that Rey is the one who most need to go to Luke.

I'm sure she wants to, but her going serves no actual purpose.
 

Interfectum

Member
Hayden nailed it In the Mouth of Madness

hWFqKPS.jpg


Amazing bicycling skills.
 

Sephzilla

Member
Actually I'm going to straight up say that Anakin slaughtering the sand people is Anakin's best moment in the prequel trilogy and it was the only time I ever truly felt like that guy could turn into Darth Vader. It was built up decently well, you could relate to why he was upset, and it was Anakin getting pissed off and killing some people who he didn't like (which kind of felt like an extension of how Vader was constantly offing commanders in Empire). Then after it's all over and he realizes what he did, he's shocked but doesn't seem entirely regretful of it and seems to understand the power of the Dark Side a little more. And it could also be used as a base point to justify why Vader would turn and save Luke at the end of Jedi - he turned to the Dark Side because he lost a loved one, and he'd turn again to save one.

It's too bad the later portion of Clones or Revenge of the Sith doesn't really run with that a bit more and instead make his entire turn based around being tricked by Palpatine with a way to save Padme.
 

sphagnum

Banned
It's too bad the later portion of Clones or Revenge of the Sith doesn't really run with that a bit more and instead make his entire turn based around being tricked by Palpatine with a way to save Padme.

The original cut of RotS focuses more on Anakin turning to the dark side because of his desire for power and because he truly believes that the Jedi are committing treason. After he screened it for Spielberg and his other filmmaker friends, they told him it didn't feel like it had enough of a focus, and so he retooled it to focus on Padme. The opera scene, which is the best scene in the entire movie I think, was added way later.
 
Actually I'm going to straight up say that Anakin slaughtering the sand people is Anakin's best moment in the prequel trilogy and it was the only time I ever truly felt like that guy could turn into Darth Vader. It was built up decently well, you could relate to why he was upset, and it was Anakin getting pissed off and killing some people who he didn't like (which kind of felt like an extension of how Vader was constantly offing commanders in Empire). Then after it's all over and he realizes what he did, he's shocked but doesn't seem entirely regretful of it and seems to understand the power of the Dark Side a little more. And it could also be used as a base point to justify why Vader would turn and save Luke at the end of Jedi - he turned to the Dark Side because he lost a loved one, and he'd turn again to save one.

It's too bad the later portion of Clones or Revenge of the Sith doesn't really run with that a bit more and instead make his entire turn based around being tricked by Palpatine with a way to save Padme.

I thought Anakin giving in and executing Dooku was pretty good too. Narratively, it might've been better to somehow have that before the sandpeople slaughter. To me that builds better: killing an albeit helpless combatant, slaughtering a village of semi-human barbarians, then building to wiping out the separatist high command.
 
The original cut of RotS focuses more on Anakin turning to the dark side because of his desire for power and because he truly believes that the Jedi are committing treason. After he screened it for Spielberg and his other filmmaker friends, they told him it didn't feel like it had enough of a focus, and so he retooled it to focus on Padme. The opera scene, which is the best scene in the entire movie I think, was added way later.

The opera scene is great. And probably would've been even better in II.
 

Sephzilla

Member
I thought Anakin giving in and executing Dooku was pretty good too. Narratively, it might've been better to somehow have that before the sandpeople slaughter. To me that builds better: killing an albeit helpless combatant, slaughtering a village of semi-human barbarians, then building to wiping out the separatist high command.

I would have liked it a little better if Anakin straight up executed Dooku on his own and didn't have Palpatine egging him on to do it. Have Anakin straight up overpower Dooku, execute him, have Obi-Wan wake up and scold Anakin a little for it not being the Jedi way, have Anakin flash a little look of "why the fuck not", and then have Palpatine smirk in the background.
 

Brakke

Banned
especially considering the film was centered around finding [Luke]

Is this even true though? The entire assault on Starkiller and the final climactic battle with Kylo don't have anything at all to do with Luke. Why does anybody even care about finding Luke except that they like him? It's not like they even used or wanted to use the Force to destroy Starkiller. There's no urgency there. Finding Luke next week is pretty much the same as finding him today: he'd be nice to have around but he isn't the difference between victory and defeat. The Order obviously wants to kill Luke but it's clearly not their primary objective: deploying Starkiller against the Republic doesn't really advance their cause against Luke at all. And the thing that finally does let us find Luke is a Deus Ex D2. If we replace the map to Luke with literally anything important to the Resistance, basically all of the beats of the film proceed the same.
 

Ishida

Banned
I can agree with a lot of this except a couple things.. OPINION incoming:

Politics (taking a significant amount of time, mind you), aside from advancing the story/enhancing the plot, largely don't belong in a space adventure, which is the heart and soul of Star Wars. Too much of it kills momentum and detracts from its simplicity. That kind of stuff is more fit for an EU or canon novel.

On Anakin and Padme.. do you not see how not liking either of them or not giving "two shits" about their characters is a massive issue (this has been reoccuring sentiment from lots of fans)? It's not like they're side characters who have little screen time. The prequels were built AROUND their rise and fall as partners/lovers. If we don't care for either of them, how can we care about anything they say or do, or what happens to them? This is the biggest issue I have with Ep. 1-3. Sure, their interactions are most interesting in Ep. 3, but had we cared for Anakin and Padme BEFORE the climax, the payoff could have salvaged what ultimately became the end product.

You're wrong about disliking Anakin being the "whole point"; we are SUPPOSED to like him so we can feel for him and his internal struggle. That doesn't mean we have to like every decision he makes, but part of the heartbreak should have been a character we love fall to the dark side. That's the whole point. In Anakin's case, there is no black or white; he was always conflicted, even as Darth Vader. We're not supposed to like him once he turns, but the point was to suffer his struggle with him, as an audience. Otherwise, what was the point of the prequels? They were centered around how and why Anakin fell to the dark side. Star Wars was never centered around the wars themselves, but rather around a family and their place within the galaxy.. even when George was in control.

You're damn right about Anakin storming the temple with clone troops. Visually and metaphorically.. that was the best scene in the entire 3 episodes by FAR. Loved it.

You bring up valid points and valid concerns. However, as usual, it all boils down to opinion. I never felt like politics were too central to the prequels' plots. They were there, and they were expanded (Which I liked), but I never felt they were extremely political or that they were boring for brining politics and the Republic society. I actually enjoyed the world building quite a lot. Different strokes. ;)

Regarding Anakin, I never felt I was supposed to cheer for him. When I was a kid and watched the original trilogy, I always pictured Anakin Skywalker to have been a whiny brat/dude with anger issues. The prequels gave me just that. I never imagined him as a stoic, goody-two-shoes heroe like many people did. So when it comes to characterization (Acting quality aside) the prequels delivered pretty much the Anakin I envisioned. His character was written (After Episode I) as a whiny, arrogant, cocky guy who believed himself to be above Obi Wan and Yoda.
I really don't see how I was supposed to like him, when he is constantly given lines belittling his own master in a very harsh way (Like in Episode II, when Obi Wan tells him his senses are not yet tuned, and Anakin responds if Obi's senses are) and acting like if he was better than him.

The way I see it, and the way I have always seen it ever since I saw the movies in theatre, was that I was supposed to dislike Anakin. And it succeeded. There were very few moments where I rooted for him. Most of his dialogue comes off as extremely arrogant and angry, like the teenager that wants to own the whole world.

It's actually quite nice to have a chat about this instead of the usual shit. I appreciate it, man. :)

Yoda even flat out stated something with regard to this, I think it was in AotC, bemoaning the increased frequency of arrogance and overconfidence in jedi as of late. Though "The Jedi" as an institution also in a broader sense exhibited those qualities, which even Yoda was probably at least partially ignorant to.

The prequels were deeply flawed movies on many levels, but I agree with almost all the good points you pointed out in your longer post about this on the last page. We don't need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Exactly. It's not even a slight hint. They basically tell you outright that the Jedi fell into a comfort zone and were careless.
 

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
bleh. that moment after the sand people was only good if we were already meant to view anakin as a psychotic murderer with no morality or self-control. He does not appear to me to be a hero that is torn up about what he did and he certainly doesn't seem to be considering the merits of "Jedi way" just because he says "I know I'm better than this." He comes off like he's more upset that he couldn't eradicate all sand people in the universe with his mind than that he slaughtered children. he didn't seem conflicted to me whatsosever, just dangerous, megalomaniacal and completely pissed off about the bad things in his life he couldn't fix.

Padme should have fled the planet and never spoken to him again after that scene.
 

FloatOn

Member
what do you suppose is next for Poe?

aside from your hopes and dreams of him and Finn banging of course.

of all the new cast I feel like he is the most two dimensional so far and I really hope they develop his character further.
 

Interfectum

Member
what do you suppose is next for Poe?

aside from your hopes and dreams of him and Finn banging of course.

of all the new cast I feel like he is the most two dimensional so far and I really hope they develop his character further.

I'm guessing him and Finn jump on a ship and set out to hook back up with Rey (for whatever plot related reason).
 

Sephzilla

Member
bleh. that moment after the sand people was only good if we were already meant to view anakin as a psychotic murderer with no morality or self-control. He does not appear to me to be a hero that is torn up about what he did and he certainly doesn't seem to be considering the merits of "Jedi way" just because he says "I know I'm better than this." He comes off like he's more upset that he couldn't eradicate all sand people in the universe with his mind than that he slaughtered children. he didn't seem conflicted to me whatsosever, just dangerous, megalomaniacal and completely pissed off about the bad things in his life he couldn't fix.

Padme should have fled the planet and never spoken to him again after that scene.

So he came across as Darth Vader
 
what do you suppose is next for Poe?

aside from your hopes and dreams of him and Finn banging of course.

of all the new cast I feel like he is the most two dimensional so far and I really hope they develop his character further.

My guess is tha FO goes on the offensive, so Poe has to lead the Resistance fighters against them.
 
My guess is tha FO goes on the offensive, so Poe has to lead the Resistance fighters against them.

The FO pretty much just decapitated the Republic, right? Even with the lost of the Starkiller, it was a pretty big victory. So yeah, I suspect the Resistance is going to have its hands full in 8 and 9.
 

jelly

Member
That scene just feels so odd to me.

Highlights the bad choice of starting with a young Anakin in the Phantom Menice. A half chance we would have seen him turning better and an actual friendship to be broken with Obi Wan if it was both of them much older. George was writing for moment not trilogy.
 
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