Support NeoGAF

[Dandy Lyin]

Just got back from seeing it! I know, I'm LTTP, but yay! I loved it so much. I can't believe all of the spoilers I managed to avoid

My only regret is seeing it in IMAX 3D. I don't know if it was my glasses, my eyes, or where I was sitting, but a lot of the 3D was ... off for some reason. Like faint double images, blurriness, bright edges, etc. It was very distracting at times. When I see it again in a few weeks, I'm going the non-3D route.

 

[sphagnum]

Why do they call the kids younglings in the prequels when they clearly use other sibling terms like father, sister, etc.

It's just a ranking term. Youngling, padawan, knight, master.

 

[Jest Chillin]

It's just a ranking term. Youngling, padawan, knight, master.

Doesn't he admit to killing "youngling" Sand People to Padme though? I think it's just a cross-special term for minors.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Why do they call the kids younglings in the prequels when they clearly use other sibling terms like father, sister, etc.

Youngling is the grade before Padawan. It means young Jedi student, not simply young kid.

 

[Hawkian]

Exactly. It's not even a slight hint. They basically tell you outright that the Jedi fell into a comfort zone and were careless.

Who is yoda even meant to be talking about in that exchange? Mace Windu and Obi-Wan (the people he's speaking to)? Himself? Everyone except for the three of them? What is Yoda implying to be the impact of this state of affairs, is it connected to their "diminshed ability to use the force" they discuss elsewhere?

I saw none of this dangerous arrogance actually portrayed on screen except for:

1) Anakin's actions (he of course was the reason arrogance was brought up to Yoda)
2) Obi-Wan hurling himself at Grievous and his droid army completely alone... and that seemingly worked out fine for him, mission complete.

Moreover my real issue was your assertion that it "brought about their demise." From my understanding of the plot as written, the demise of the Jedi came about because Palpatine had planned for every possible contingency and effected almost every major event to his liking including complete authoritative control over the troops the Jedi were fighting with, and straight up tricking Anakin into joining him and turning to the dark side.

Again if there was supposed to be some important subtext running through the prequels that the rise of the empire was due to the arrogance of Old Republic Jedi then it was not executed well. Every single character besides Palpatine makes stupid and illogical decisions, not ones that really seemed to stem from in-script arrogance so much as bad writing, and they weren't limited to the Jedi anyway.

 

[Surfinn]

Is this even true though? The entire assault on Starkiller and the final climactic battle with Kylo don't have anything at all to do with Luke. Why does anybody even care about finding Luke except that they like him? It's not like they even used or wanted to use the Force to destroy Starkiller. There's no urgency there. Finding Luke next week is pretty much the same as finding him today: he'd be nice to have around but he isn't the difference between victory and defeat. The Order obviously wants to kill Luke but it's clearly not their primary objective: deploying Starkiller against the Republic doesn't really advance their cause against Luke at all. And the thing that finally does let us find Luke is a Deus Ex D2. If we replace the map to Luke with literally anything important to the Resistance, basically all of the beats of the film proceed the same.

The whole movie, from start to finish, is about finding Luke. Starkiller base is only a means of destroying direct enemies who could find Luke first, and the New Republic, who stand in the way of the FO doing whatever they want in the galaxy. He's important because the First Order wants to destroy all remaining Jedi as they're seen as the ultimate threat, blocking their long term goal of ruling the galaxy unchallenged. Luke is mentioned in all three paragraphs of the opening crawl and as the first two words we see after EPISODE VII, in addition to being included in the very last sentence before the first scene. No urgency? Snoke was minutes away from getting crucial information out of Rey (one of two pieces of the map to Luke) before she escaped in the nick of time.



"Episode VII
THE FORCE AWAKENS

Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.

With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy.

Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke’s whereabouts…."



Says it right in the opening of the movie..

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Doesn't he admit to killing "youngling" Sand People to Padme though? I think it's just a cross-special term for minors.

Nah, pretty sure he says children in that scene.

 

[BluePigGanon]

Doesn't he admit to killing "youngling" Sand People to Padme though? I think it's just a cross-special term for minors.

No he says children.

"Youngling" seems to be a jedi distinction. It's not synonymous with "child", it's a child who's in the jedi order.

 

[jelly]

Just got back from seeing it! I know, I'm LTTP, but yay! I loved it so much. I can't believe all of the spoilers I managed to avoid

My only regret is seeing it in IMAX 3D. I don't know if it was my glasses, my eyes, or where I was sitting, but a lot of the 3D was ... off for some reason. Like faint double images, blurriness, bright edges, etc. It was very distracting at times. When I see it again in a few weeks, I'm going the non-3D route.

Me too and I can see fine. Fast motion stuff was pretty bad. Never going 3D again.

 

[Ishida]

Who is yoda even meant to be talking about in that exchange? Mace Windu and Obi-Wan (the people he's speaking to)? Himself? Everyone except for the three of them? What is Yoda implying to be the impact of this state of affairs, is it connected to their "diminshed ability to use the force" they discuss elsewhere?

I saw none of this dangerous arrogance actually portrayed on screen except for:

1) Anakin's actions (he of course was the reason arrogance was brought up to Yoda)
2) Obi-Wan hurling himself at Grievous and his droid army completely alone... and that seemingly worked out fine for him, mission complete.

Moreover my real issue was your assertion that it "brought about their demise." From my understanding of the plot as written, the demise of the Jedi came about because Palpatine had planned for every possible contingency and effected almost every major event to his liking including complete authoritative control over the troops the Jedi were fighting with, and straight up tricking Anakin into joining him and turning to the dark side.

Again if there was supposed to be some important subtext running through the prequels that the rise of the empire was due to the arrogance of Old Republic Jedi then it was not executed well. Every single character besides Palpatine makes stupid and illogical decisions, not ones that really seemed to stem from in-script arrogance so much as bad writing, and they weren't limited to the Jedi anyway.

I disagree. The Jedi got overconfident and blind. They knew the Sith or the dark side users had infiltrated the Senate and were somehow manipulating the events from the background and still played straight into the enemy plans.

Even Yoda showed signs of arrogance when he asks Palpatine if he is surprised that he survived Order 66, as in "I'm one hardcore motherfucker, did you thought that would be my end?". Even Palpatine remarks on Yoda's arrogance.

Doesn't he admit to killing "youngling" Sand People to Padme though? I think it's just a cross-special term for minors.

I don't recall Anakin mentioning "Younglings" when talking about the Sand People. The term seems exclusive to the youngest Jedi students.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Nah, pretty sure he says children in that scene.

No he says children.

"Youngling" seems to be a jedi distinction. It's not synonymous with "child", it's a child who's in the jedi order.

Ah ok. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Hawkian]

So he came across as Darth Vader

well, yeah, kind of. He's more emotional than Vader is portrayed during any onscreen event post-"NOOoooooooo." But I mean, it certainly would have made more sense if we were meant to understand that he was already a true villain by the mid-point of Episode II. However as scripted it is clear he is still supposed to be a hero even through the majority of Episode III.

Doesn't he admit to killing "youngling" Sand People to Padme though? I think it's just a cross-special term for minors.

I just looked it up:

PADME: Anakin.

ANAKIN: It’s all Obi-Wan’s fault! He’s jealous! He’s holding me back!

PADME: What’s wrong Ani?

ANAKIN: I- I killed them. I killed them all. They’re dead. Every single one of them. And not juste the men, but the women, and the children too.

ANAKIN: They’re like animals, and I slaughtered them like animals. I hate them!

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Who is yoda even meant to be talking about in that exchange? Mace Windu and Obi-Wan (the people he's speaking to)? Himself? Everyone except for the three of them? What is Yoda implying to be the impact of this state of affairs, is it connected to their "diminshed ability to use the force" they discuss elsewhere?

I saw none of this dangerous arrogance actually portrayed on screen except for:

1) Anakin's actions (he of course was the reason arrogance was brought up to Yoda)
2) Obi-Wan hurling himself at Grievous and his droid army completely alone... and that seemingly worked out fine for him, mission complete.

Moreover my real issue was your assertion that it "brought about their demise." From my understanding of the plot as written, the demise of the Jedi came about because Palpatine had planned for every possible contingency and effected almost every major event to his liking including complete authoritative control over the troops the Jedi were fighting with, and straight up tricking Anakin into joining him and turning to the dark side.

Again if there was supposed to be some important subtext running through the prequels that the rise of the empire was due to the arrogance of Old Republic Jedi then it was not executed well. Every single character besides Palpatine makes stupid and illogical decisions, not ones that really seemed to stem from in-script arrogance so much as bad writing, and they weren't limited to the Jedi anyway.

The Jedi order went from peacekeeping to a military force. Doing that got them away from the pragmatism of the Jedi dogma to a "might makes right" way of thinking.

 

[Veelk]

So I have a question. I was watching Plinkett before and he mentioned how Anakin was tricked into the dark side, rather than seduced like what Obiwan claimed in the OT.

What was the impression people had about Vader before? What did seduced mean exactly, in the context of what we know about OT? I'm guessing it's basically what Palpatine tried to do with Luke (though that came off less as a seduction and more like constant prodding on the Emperor's part), but what did everyone else think?

 

[30yearsofhurt]

well, yeah, kind of. He's more emotional than Vader is portrayed during any onscreen event post-"NOOoooooooo." But I mean, it certainly would have made more sense if we were meant to understand that he was already a true villain by the mid-point of Episode II. However as scripted it is clear he is still supposed to be a hero even through the majority of Episode III.

I just looked it up:

PADME: Anakin.

ANAKIN: It’s all Obi-Wan’s fault! He’s jealous! He’s holding me back!

PADME: What’s wrong Ani?

ANAKIN: I- I killed them. I killed them all. They’re dead. Every single one of them. And not juste the men, but the women, and the children too.

ANAKIN: They’re like animals, and I slaughtered them like animals. I hate them!

Wow.
Such dialogue.
Much drama.

 

[Sorcerer]

Actually I'm going to straight up say that Anakin slaughtering the sand people is Anakin's best moment in the prequel trilogy and it was the only time I ever truly felt like that guy could turn into Darth Vader. It was built up decently well, you could relate to why he was upset, and it was Anakin getting pissed off and killing some people who he didn't like (which kind of felt like an extension of how Vader was constantly offing commanders in Empire). Then after it's all over and he realizes what he did, he's shocked but doesn't seem entirely regretful of it and seems to understand the power of the Dark Side a little more. And it could also be used as a base point to justify why Vader would turn and save Luke at the end of Jedi - he turned to the Dark Side because he lost a loved one, and he'd turn again to save one.

It's too bad the later portion of Clones or Revenge of the Sith doesn't really run with that a bit more and instead make his entire turn based around being tricked by Palpatine with a way to save Padme.

I doubt it was ever filmed, but in the novel of Phantom Menace, when we first meet Anakin, he rescues a Sand Person and returns him to his family.

I am guessing its not a coincidence and it was supposed to show how far Anakin has fallen.

 

[Brakke]

The whole movie, from start to finish, is about finding Luke.

That's a crazy thing to say. Han doesn't go to Starkiller to further the project of finding Luke. Han barely even cares about finding Luke. When he's talking to Maz he's trying to pawn off the job of delivering the map to the Resistance. If Maz hadn't talked him into going back (or, really, if Leia hadn't shown up of her own accord), he wouldn't have been involved at all in finding Luke. Finn doesn't care at all about finding Luke. First he wants to get free of the Order, then he wants to save Rey.

He's important because the First Order wants to destroy all remaining Jedi as they're seen as the ultimate threat, standing in the way of their long term goal of ruling the galaxy unchallenged.

Sure that's an express goal but it's not a particularly credible one. What's the indication that Luke is even interested in standing against them? Chewie and Poe do way way way more damage to the Order than Luke does...

Snoke was minutes away from getting the last bit of information out of Rey (thel last piece of the map to Luke) before she escaped in the nick of time.

Obviously people care about finding Luke, I'm just saying that's not the whole "point". Even that specific example is off; Rey didn't flee because she cared about preserving Luke's whereabouts, she was saving her own skin. All of her actions post-capture are Luke-agnostic, until she goes to meet him.

 

[BluePigGanon]

So I have a question. I was watching Plinkett before and he mentioned how Anakin was tricked into the dark side, rather than seduced like what Obiwan claimed in the OT.

What was the impression people had about Vader before? What did seduced mean exactly, in the context of what we know about OT? I'm guessing it's basically what Palpatine tried to do with Luke (though that came off less as a seduction and more like constant prodding on the Emperor's part), but what did everyone else think?

"Seduced" to me implied Anakin just couldn't resist how quickly he could become more powerful via the dark side, and how it could make him more powerful (maybe) than light-siders. Kenobi suggests that, as does Yoda.

But as the prequels play out, Anakin's motivations are fuzzy. It seems like he just wants to amass a bunch of power to save Padme, but then in his confrontation with Kenobi is becomes apparent he's more excited about the idea of killing Palpatine and installing himself as the ruler of the galaxy.

I think it might've better "fit" what we know from the OT if Anakin was conceived as more of a vigilante jedi, or rogue 007 type. A jedi who begins to feel the war could be ended and peace and order could be restored if they shook off their restraints and took deliberate action. I thought they were going that route after the conversation with Anakin and Padme in II, where he says the system doesn't work and they need a powerful person to just make smart decisions and force everyone to fall in line.

 

[Zabka]

I watched Max Landis' latest video and I'm now convinced he slept through half the movie.

 

[LegendofLex]

What was the impression people had about Vader before? What did seduced mean exactly, in the context of what we know about OT? I'm guessing it's basically what Palpatine tried to do with Luke (though that came off less as a seduction and more like constant prodding on the Emperor's part), but what did everyone else think?

It's a blank check, honestly.

We have literally no idea what Vader's motivations were at any point in his fall according to just the OT films.

But as the prequels play out, Anakin's motivations are fuzzy. It seems like he just wants to amass a bunch of power to save Padme, but then in his confrontation with Kenobi is becomes apparent he's more excited about the idea of killing Palpatine and installing himself as the ruler of the galaxy.

I think all the pieces are there.

ANAKIN : I don't think so... No one can kill a Jedi Knight.
QUI-GON : I wish that were so...
ANAKIN. I had a dream I was a Jedi. I came back here and freed all the
slaves...have you come to free us?
QUI-GON : No, I'm afraid not...
ANAKIN : I think you have...why else would you be here?
[...]
QUI-GON : Anakin, training to be a Jedi will not be a easy challenge. And
if you succeed, it will be a hard life.
ANAKIN : But it's what I want. What I've always dreamed about. Can I go,
Mom?!
[...]
ANAKIN : Will I ever see you again?
SHMI : What does your heart tell you?
ANAKIN : I hope so...yes...I guess.
SHMI : Then we will see each other again.
ANAKIN : I.. will become a Jedi and I will come back and free you, Mom...I
promise.

ANAKIN: I don't think the system works.
PADME: How would you have it work?
ANAKIN: We need a system where the politicians sit down and discuss the problems,
agree what's in the best interests of all the people, and then do it.
PADME: That is exactly what we do. The trouble is that people don't always
agree.
ANAKIN: Then they should be made to.
PADME: By whom? Who's going to make them?
ANAKIN: I don't know. Someone.
PADME: You?
ANAKIN: Of course not me.
PADME: But someone.
ANAKIN: Someone wise.
PADME: That sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship to me.
ANAKIN: Well, if it works...
[...]
ANAKIN: I wasn't strong enough to save you, Mom. I wasn't strong enough.
But I promise I won't fail again.

OBI-WAN: (takes a deep breath) The Council wants you to report on all of the Chancellor's dealings. They want to know what he's up to.
ANAKIN: They want me to spy on the Chancellor? That's treason!
OBI-WAN: We are at war, Anakin.
ANAKIN: Why didn't the Council give me this assignment when we were in session?
OBI-WAN: This assignment is not to be on record.
ANAKIN: The Chancellor is not a bad man, Obi-Wan. He befriended me. He's watched out for me ever since I arrived here.
OBI-WAN: That is why you must help us, Anakin. Our allegiance is to the Senate, not to its leader who has managed to stay in office long after his term has expired.
ANAKIN: Master, the Senate demanded that he stay longer.
OBI-WAN: Yes, but use your feelings, Anakin. Something is out of place.
ANAKIN: You're asking me to do something against the Jedi Code. Against the Republic. Against a mentor . . . and a friend. That's what's out of place here. Why are you asking this of me?
OBI-WAN: The Council is asking you.
[...]
PALPATINE: Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis "the wise"?
ANAKIN: No.
PALPATINE: I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life ... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.
ANAKIN: He could actually save people from death?
PALPATINE: The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.
ANAKIN: What happened to him?
PALPATINE: He became so powerful . . . the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. (smiles) It's ironic he could save others from death, but not himself.
ANAKIN: Is it possible to learn this power?
PALPATINE: Not from a Jedi.
[...]
ANAKIN: I feel . . . lost.
PADME: Lost? What do you mean? You're always so sure of yourself. I don't understand.
ANAKIN: Obi-Wan and the Council don't trust me.
PADME: They trust you with their lives.
ANAKIN: Something's happening . . . I'm not the Jedi I should be. I want more, and I know I shouldn't.
PADME: You expect too much of yourself.
ANAKIN: I have found a way to save you.
PADME: Save me?
ANAKIN: From my nightmares.
PADME: Is that what's bothering you?
ANAKIN: I won't lose you, Padme.
PADME: I'm not going to die in childbirth, Annie. I promise you.
ANAKIN: No, I promise you!
[...]
ANAKIN: Don't you see, we don't have to run away anymore. I have brought peace to the Republic. I am more powerful than the Chancellor. I can overthrow him, and together you and I can rule the galaxy. Make things the way we want them to be.
[...]
ANAKIN: Don't lecture me, Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the dark side as you do. I have brought peace, justice, freedom, and security to my new Empire.

 

[Kuros]

The original cut of RotS focuses more on Anakin turning to the dark side because of his desire for power and because he truly believes that the Jedi are committing treason. After he screened it for Spielberg and his other filmmaker friends, they told him it didn't feel like it had enough of a focus, and so he retooled it to focus on Padme. The opera scene, which is the best scene in the entire movie I think, was added way later.

Yes the opera scene was a reshoot. And McDiarmid had a sore throat hence the different (and great) delivery.

The only problem i have with the him turning because of Padme is the fact that Sheev straight up tells him as soon as he has killed Mace "Yo, i was bullshitting about that lolz" It comes across as Anakin being turned by a cheap trick.

I guess at that point Anakin has gone to far and can't turn back but i'd prefer if they'd gone with his feeling of his desire for power and the Jedi's inaction.

Or just gone with the the Revan option of a man so ruined by war he seeks a more extreme way to end it.

Ultimately though Hayden was not the right pick and we'll never know what might have been given a more accomplished actor. Before the PT i also envisaged Anakin as a man in his 30's rather than a whiney guy barely out of his teenage years.

 

[Inferno313]

I'm in a twitter argument with Devin Faraci because he thinks this stuff about Nines is a deleted scene that should've been in the film.

I can't.

 

[Ishida]

So I have a question. I was watching Plinkett before and he mentioned how Anakin was tricked into the dark side, rather than seduced like what Obiwan claimed in the OT.

What was the impression people had about Vader before? What did seduced mean exactly, in the context of what we know about OT? I'm guessing it's basically what Palpatine tried to do with Luke (though that came off less as a seduction and more like constant prodding on the Emperor's part), but what did everyone else think?

Using the OT as the only context, we never truly knew. We could only assume, based on Yoda's words, that Anakin tried to gain power "the easy way".

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'm in a twitter argument with Devin Faraci because he thinks this stuff about Nines is a deleted scene that should've been in the film.

I can't.

Lol what...

 

[Hawkian]

I disagree. The Jedi got overconfident and blind. They knew the Sith or the dark side users had infiltrated the Senate and were somehow manipulating the events from the background and still played straight into the enemy plans.

Even Yoda showed signs of arrogance when he asks Palpatine if he is surprised that he survived Order 66, as in "I'm one hardcore motherfucker, did you thought that would be my end?". Even Palpatine remarks on Yoda's arrogance.

The Jedi order went from peacekeeping to a military force. Doing that got them away from the pragmatism of the Jedi dogma to a "might makes right" way of thinking.

I'm happy to agree to disagree, and really I'm not commenting at all on whether or not what you guys are saying happened, just that it is not at all executed well in the prequel trilogy. It barely has any impact on the plot if you'e just watching them as movies. Everyone from the Jedi to Anakin himself through to the players we know about in the Senate just come off like they're stupid for not figuring things out at a similar rate as the audience; a convincing reason for their actions (or lack thereof) is not adequately portrayed on-screen and I am absolutely including the scene were Yoda states outright "older Jedi are becoming too arrogant."

So I have a question. I was watching Plinkett before and he mentioned how Anakin was tricked into the dark side, rather than seduced like what Obiwan claimed in the OT.

What was the impression people had about Vader before? What did seduced mean exactly, in the context of what we know about OT? I'm guessing it's basically what Palpatine tried to do with Luke (though that came off less as a seduction and more like constant prodding on the Emperor's part), but what did everyone else think?

What I had always imagined was almost Napoleonic. Like he had this idea for how things should be and genuinely wanted to make things better for the people in the Galaxy but kept struggling with how ineffective the "Jedi way" was at bringing about results. So he started to compromise his ideals a bit and little by little realized that tapping into the dark side could get results faster and more definitively until he was completely distanced from the Jedi order. By the time he had actually become "Darth Vader" he wouldn't have even remembered a reason for "turning to the Dark Side," his seduction would have just been the accumulated thirst for power over years of struggle.

The idea that an individual person (whether the Emperor or otherwise) would be directly responsible for his "seduction" didn't occur to me until I was actually watching it happen.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

So I have a question. I was watching Plinkett before and he mentioned how Anakin was tricked into the dark side, rather than seduced like what Obiwan claimed in the OT.

What was the impression people had about Vader before? What did seduced mean exactly, in the context of what we know about OT? I'm guessing it's basically what Palpatine tried to do with Luke (though that came off less as a seduction and more like constant prodding on the Emperor's part), but what did everyone else think?

You pretty much answered your own question. If he had actually saved Padme, then maybe I could give it a pass as being seduced, but really it was all a lie.

I don't know what I expected exactly, but I feel like it should have had something to do with Vader trying over and over to do something and repeatedly failing. Then he sees darkside users wielding that power with ease. He needs to do that thing at a critical moment and he lets his anger and jealousy get the better of him and he pulls it off. I could see some kind of revenge story working well where he needs to keep taping the darkside until he's consumed.

 

[-griffy-]

I've been hearing people say this a lot lately, but does anyone actually have a source that shows Hayden can act? Genuinely asking.

He was nominated for a Golden Globe (and several newcomer/promising new actor awards) for Life as a House in 2001, before Star Wars ruined his career.

 

[BluePigGanon]

Yes the opera scene was a reshoot. And McDiarmid had a sore throat hence the different (and great) delivery.

The only problem i have with the him turning because of Padme is the fact that Sheev straight up tells him as soon as he has killed Mace "Yo, i was bullshitting about that lolz" It comes across as Anakin being turned by a cheap trick.

I guess at that point Anakin has gone to far and can't turn back but i'd prefer if they'd gone with his feeling of his desire for power and the Jedi's inaction.

That's my central complaint about Anakin's turn: once Padme dies, it's hard to figure out why he remains so committed to his path. The movie seems to say "Anakin is gorging on dark side actions to amass power to save Padme." Okay, Padme's gone now and your "friend" Palpatine has been lying to you your entire life. 30 more years of being his lapdog doesn't really make sense to me.

 

[MMarston]

He was nominated for a Golden Globe (and several newcomer/promising new actor awards) for Life as a House in 2001, before Star Wars ruined his career.

Shattered Glass was also pretty good. Haven't seen that one in years though.

 

[Brakke]

lol did anyone ever have an interaction with Devin Faraci that wasn't a frustrating argument. I don't know why Amy Nicholson puts up with him on their pod.

 

[Kuros]

And i know it's a Plinkett thing. But he seems to articulate things well that i was thinking.

George almost seemed like he didn't watch his own movies before making the PT.

 

[FriendlyGoat]

Sure that's an express goal but it's not a particularly credible one. What's the indication that Luke is even interested in standing against them? Chewie and Poe do way way way more damage to the Order than Luke does...

Why do they need an indication that Luke is interested in helping? It is pretty clear Luke does not want to get involved, but there is no narrative issue with desperately trying to find someone so you can convince them otherwise. If anything, that is an extremely common storytelling beat.

How much does the resistance even KNOW about Starkiller Base before it blows the Republic to smithereens? It sure seemed like news to them. Having long term goals (defeating Snoke/The First Order; needs Luke) does not preclude having short term goals (destroying the newly discovered threat of Starkiller base; needs immediate military action). Luke isn't needed to defeat Starkiller, they believe him necessary for the larger struggle.

Obviously people care about finding Luke, I'm just saying that's not the whole "point". Even that specific example is off; Rey didn't flee because she cared about preserving Luke's whereabouts, she was saving her own skin. All of her actions post-capture are Luke-agnostic, until she goes to meet him.

Not wanting or caring about something in the moment does not mean something is not important. Part of Rey's "refusing the call" was running away from the idea that her future lies in bringing back Luke. Then, her resolution is accepting her destiny: Luke. Trying not to die and focusing on escaping your captors doesn't interfere with any of that.

 

[Dandy Lyin]

I watched Max Landis' latest video and I'm now convinced he slept through half the movie.

Now that I've seen the movies, I decided to watch his videos about TFA... and I just can't even get through the first one. His ragey whining hurts my ears.

 

[Hawkian]

I think it might've better "fit" what we know from the OT if Anakin was conceived as more of a vigilante jedi, or rogue 007 type. A jedi who begins to feel the war could be ended and peace and order could be restored if they shook off their restraints and took deliberate action.

That's very close to what I was thinking as well

I thought they were going that route after the conversation with Anakin and Padme in II, where he says the system doesn't work and they need a powerful person to just make smart decisions and force everyone to fall in line.

Ha, that's right, I forgot he admitted outright that he's cool with dictatorships to his love interest.

It isn't really every explored again though. Whether due to rewrites or what, it's extremely clear in RotS that he is open to the dark side solely because he wants to save padme from dying. I'm pretty sure he is even given the line "Just help me save Padme's life" verbatim when talking to Palpatine

 

[Surfinn]

You bring up valid points and valid concerns. However, as usual, it all boils down to opinion. I never felt like politics were too central to the prequels' plots. They were there, and they were expanded (Which I liked), but I never felt they were extremely political or that they were boring for brining politics and the Republic society. I actually enjoyed the world building quite a lot. Different strokes.

Regarding Anakin, I never felt I was supposed to cheer for him. When I was a kid and watched the original trilogy, I always pictured Anakin Skywalker to have been a whiny brat/dude with anger issues. The prequels gave me just that. I never imagined him as a stoic, goody-two-shoes heroe like many people did. So when it comes to characterization (Acting quality aside) the prequels delivered pretty much the Anakin I envisioned. His character was written (After Episode I) as a whiny, arrogant, cocky guy who believed himself to be above Obi Wan and Yoda.
I really don't see how I was supposed to like him, when he is constantly given lines belittling his own master in a very harsh way (Like in Episode II, when Obi Wan tells him his senses are not yet tuned, and Anakin responds if Obi's senses are) and acting like if he was better than him.

The way I see it, and the way I have always seen it ever since I saw the movies in theatre, was that I was supposed to dislike Anakin. And it succeeded. There were very few moments where I rooted for him. Most of his dialogue comes off as extremely arrogant and angry, like the teenager that wants to own the whole world.

It's actually quite nice to have a chat about this instead of the usual shit. I appreciate it, man.

Likewise, it's been a nice discussion.

In regard to Anakin, I agree that Lucas was presenting him in an unlikable way purposefully, but my point is that he SHOULD have been a likable character; it should have been different. The movie could have revolved around a relatable, adventurous, yet troubled young Jedi, forced to deal with extreme hardships at a young age. Instead what we got was an arrogant/cocky teen (with the addition of enduring extreme hardships at at young age). That was a huge mistake and largely responsible for why we don't like Anakin and his relationship with Padme. Padme is the other part of the problem. She should be as likable, if not moreso than Anakin. Instead of being a one dimensional character, she could have also struggled with hardships but dealt with them in a better way, encouraging Anakin to face his fears and help him (or try to) deal with issues by offering her own experience (i.e. a scenario of "Once, I gave into my hate and have since learned to control my emotions"). One of my favorite moments/lines from the prequels is an often overlooked quote from Yoda when Anakin seeks his advice: "Train yourself to let go of all that you fear to lose." It's probably the only thing Yoda said in all of the prequels that felt like something his character would actually say in accordance with the OT. I wish Padme would have been his support in this area and at least given him more of a choice and therefore struggle with his emotions and actions.

 

[Jest Chillin]

I always felt the downfall of the Jedi was due to their being put between a rock and a hard place by Palpatine's planning.

The only way The Jedi survive such slow and meticulous plan is if they usurp The Senate's power.. something that would've led to their corruption.

Their intended function was to be something like the Federal Marshall's of the Universe. But with the events of the Trade Federation's Blockade, they were drawn into becoming allies with Naboo and thus Padme and Palpatine. This enabled Palpatine to manipulate Padme without appearing to be doing so with nefarious intent while simultaneously allowing him to get Anakin's ear.

Then, as the Jedi are helping The Republic at his request, he's simultaenously creating so much discord as to overwhelm them with skirmishes across the galaxy.. leading both the Jedi Council and The Senate to believe that there was a need for an organized Army. He also used Count Dooku specifically to distract The Jedi Council, keeping them from thoroughly investigating just who was behind the Clones in the first place. As The Clone War ramps up.. The Jedi are pressured into taking militarized leadership roles since Dooku, a former Jedi, is leading the Seperatists.. which further facilitated the allied relationship between The Republic and the Jedi Council. Which sets up the majority of The Jedi to be in perfect position at any given time to be outnumbered and overwhelmed the moment Order 66 is delivered.

All of this makes the Jedi destruction come across moreso as masterful planning on the part of Palpatine rather than the Jedi becoming complacent or being arrogant. I honestly feel that Yoda's comments to that effect are in regards to the newer up-and-coming Jedi who aren't able to be trained in a properly focused environment due to the prolonged series of Wars first with the Trade Fed and then with The Separatists. I mean this is exactly why Anakin is as arrogant and gung ho emotional as he is. The experiences of learning through battles and wars lead him to resort to tactics un-befitting of Jedi tenets.

 

[BluePigGanon]

That's very close to what I was thinking as well

Ha, that's right, I forgot he admitted outright that he's cool with dictatorships to his love interest.

It isn't really every explored again though. Whether due to rewrites or what, it's extremely clear in RotS that he is open to the dark side solely because he wants to save padme from dying. I'm pretty sure he is even given the line "Just help me save Padme's life" verbatim when talking to Palpatine

So much of the PT suffers from the scripts being written on the fly. All three should've been written, or at least outlined, right off the bat. Not only would you shore up these plot points and character arcs, but you could make logical choices like Dooku floating around in EpI, and Grievous hanging out in EpII.

 

[User1608]

TR-8R is going to somehow end up being brought back in the sequels, isn't he? He's one of, if not the most talked about character from the movie.

I'd love for him to come back. Such an awesome surprise and highlight! Calling it now, popularity power will bring him back for the next two movies. At the very least as others have said he may get his own comic or novel.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

https://vid.me/A7Ci

The whole time I was watching it, I was hoping they weren't going to end it there.

As a Luke defender growing up, I didn't want to wait till Ep8 to see him.

 

[moltonasty]

That's my central complaint about Anakin's turn: once Padme dies, it's hard to fugre out why he remains so committed to his path. The movie seems to say "Anakin is gorging on dark side actions to amass power to save Padme." Okay, Padme's gone now and your "friend" Palpatine has been lying to you your entire life. 30 more years of being his lapdog doesn't really make sense to me.

My interpretation was that Anakin doesn't really see Palpatine as a liar, he still believes there's a chance that they can save Padme. Plus, he's already past the point of no return at this point..I mean he basically helped Palpy kill Mace, and I feel like honestly Anakin was glad to kill Mace. Keep in mind, since Ep.1 he's been giving little Annie dirty ass looks and doubting his abilities..he was the first one to deny him the right to train as a Jedi. Meanwhile Palpatine was always his only father figure, I thought this was really obvious throughout the entire PT, personally.

 

[Surfinn]

Why do they need an indication that Luke is interested in helping? It is pretty clear Luke does not want to get involved, but there is no narrative issue with desperately trying to find someone so you can convince them otherwise. If anything, that is an extremely common storytelling beat.

How much does the resistance even KNOW about Starkiller Base before it blows the Republic to smithereens? It sure seemed like news to them. Having long term goals (defeating Snoke/The First Order; needs Luke) does not preclude having short term goals (destroying the newly discovered threat of Starkiller base; needs immediate military action). Luke isn't necessarily to defeat Starkiller, but they believe him necessary for the larger struggle.

Not wanting or caring about something in the moment does not mean something is not important. Part of Rey refusing the heroes call was resisting the idea that her future lies in bringing back Luke. Then, her resolution is accepting her destiny: Luke. Trying not to die and escape your captors doesn't interfere with any of that.

This, exactly. Not to mention, like I said but was ignored: the film's ENTIRE opening crawl is about finding Luke. Obviously this is a long term goal to ultimately restore peace and justice to the galaxy, which is ALSO stated almost word for word in the opening crawl. The Resistance believes they need Luke's help in doing so.

I'm not really sure how one cannot conclude that the movie is about finding Luke. Starkiller base was an obstacle in the way of getting there (the resistance would have been destroyed if Starkiller base was operational for much longer).

Of course Rey is trying to escape and she doesn't understand the significance of finding/working with Luke; you'd have to be a veteran to know the importance. Many characters in the movie have just learned that Luke is even real.

 

[Jest Chillin]

So I have a question. I was watching Plinkett before and he mentioned how Anakin was tricked into the dark side, rather than seduced like what Obiwan claimed in the OT.

What was the impression people had about Vader before? What did seduced mean exactly, in the context of what we know about OT? I'm guessing it's basically what Palpatine tried to do with Luke (though that came off less as a seduction and more like constant prodding on the Emperor's part), but what did everyone else think?

Within the context of the OT alone, the seduction comes across as one of power which taps into an inherently human internal conflict. There's a reason why the Darkside celebrates aggression, anger, and action while the Lightside is one of restraint, consideration, and pacifism. The former *feels* powerful while the latter requires more control, which is argued to require more strength to excercise than the former.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

The whole time I was watching it, I was hoping they weren't going to end it there.

As a Luke defender growing up, I didn't want to wait till Ep8 to see him.

They could have had the Luke scene mid credits though. Win/win.

 

[Brakke]

I'm not really sure how one cannot conclude that the movie is about finding Luke.

I said. We have at least two characters who basically don't care about finding Luke in Han and Finn. And neither of our climactic battles in the sky or in the snow have to do with finding Luke. Our primary conflict (the existential threat posed by Starkiller) is resolved without Luke's influence.

Starkiller base was an obstacle in the way of getting there (the resistance would have been destroyed if Starkiller base was operational for much longer).

That makes Starkiller an obstacle to survival, not an obstacle to finding Luke. They want Luke presumably because they think he can help them beat the Order. Their primary function is to beat the Order. And they do a damn good job of beating the Order without Luke. It's not clear that he's essential or even instrumental for achieving their primary goal.

 

[BluePigGanon]

They could have had the Luke scene mid credits though. Win/win.

There are conventions for SW saga films. Opening crawl, the last few shots are always sans dialogue, and no mid or after credit nonsense,

 

[Interfectum]

Did Plinkett like Episode 7?

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

My interpretation was that Anakin doesn't really see Palpatine as a liar, he still believes there's a chance that they can save Padme. Plus, he's already past the point of no return at this point..I mean he basically helped Palpy kill Mace, and I feel like honestly Anakin was glad to kill Mace. Keep in mind, since Ep.1 he's been giving little Annie dirty ass looks and doubting his abilities..he was the first one to deny him the right to train as a Jedi. Meanwhile Palpatine was always his only father figure, I thought this was really obvious throughout the entire PT, personally.

Haven't seen the PT especially ROTS in a while but (if I'm remembering correctly) I thought it was funny Palpatine basically went from:
"Oh yeah, I heard the Dark Side can totally bring people back from the dead"
to
"Oh..ugh, if we work together, maybe we can uncover the mysteries of the Dark Side of the Force and maybe figure out a way to bring back people from the dead"

And Anakin is all
"I'm ok with this"
instead of
"...that's not what you said in that pitch you gave me at the opera house"

Did Plinkett like Episode 7?

Red Letter and the Mike who plays the Real Plinkett, loved it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvsiJppCdmk

If you want to skip the opening skit
https://youtu.be/AvsiJppCdmk?t=1m58s

 

[Grover Cleveland]

They could have had the Luke scene mid credits though. Win/win.

This isn't a Marvel movie.

Post credit scenes aren't Lucasfilm's style

 

[BluePigGanon]

That makes Starkiller an obstacle to survival, not an obstacle to finding Luke. They want Luke presumably because they think he can help them beat the Order. Their primary function is to beat the Order. And they do a damn good job of beating the Order without Luke. It's not clear that he's essential or even instrumental for achieving their primary goal.

The First Order is in a far better position at the end of TFA, and the Republic/Resistance far worse. TFO lost the Starkiller; the Republic lost the entire senate and the Resistance lost their backers.

 

[TheDinoman]

Did Plinkett like Episode 7?

Mike Stoklasa (who plays Plinkett) said he loved it and "it was everything [he] hoped it would it be".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvsiJppCdmk