Would that outcome have been any different if they'd found Luke earlier? Did he know about Starkiller? Would he have anticipated the attack on the Republic? No to all. Or at least, the movie doesn't give us any reason to think "yes" to any.
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
Would that outcome have been any different if they'd found Luke earlier? Did he know about Starkiller? Would he have anticipated the attack on the Republic? No to all. Or at least, the movie doesn't give us any reason to think "yes" to any.
RedLetterMedia in general seemed to really like the movie
WadiumArcadium
Member
Following him on Twitter in the first place is a bad idea.
I love the way Mike almost cracks at how cheesy that sounds as he says it.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
When the main operative of the First Order is a wannabe Sith, I think you want a Jedi on your side. Because without him, The Sith user basically is on god mode in all those battles against you.
And to be fair, no one in the Resistance knew about Rey's Force affinity until after she was kidnapped.
Rey discovering her connection with the Force, was even more reason to find Luke.
Liquidsnake
Banned
Obi Wan V Annakin in III was pretty bad ass though. Obi was probably at his height of his prime with the force.
I love the way he says "Welllll" too. Very cathartic
Right, but you're being short sighted about your interpretation. They obviously didn't need Luke to destroy Starkiller, but doing so is only the beginning of the struggle. The resistance believes all of this will be for nothing if they don't eventually locate Luke, who could provide LONG TERM stability, peace and justice for the entire galaxy. That's something they feel they cannot do without Luke. The movie opened with a clue on where to find Luke, and the movie ends with Rey finding Luke. If the movie was simply about destroying Starkiller, it would have ended there instead of a helicopter shot of Rey metaphorically offering Luke the saber. Lukes name dominates the opening crawl. That's as straightforward as it gets.
BluePigGanon
Member
I'm not wading into that conversation, I'm just disputing your verdict on the Resistance's ability to handle the FO. Regardless of whether Luke would've changed the board in that movie, it's clear yeah, the Resistance could use help.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
This!
I would have been pissed if they ended it with them telling us they found Luke (map scene), instead of them showing us they found him (what we got).
There are two separate yet related theads running through TFA: The First Order fighting against the Republic, and the search for Luke. These two threads that are somewhat at adds yet intertwined are really represented by General Hux vs. Kylo Ren. Hux is more interested in simply gaining strength and neutralizing the Republic, where Kylo (under Snoke's guidance) is interested in mastering the Dark side and destroying the Light side (and therefore, finding and killing Luke).
Without the hunt for Luke, our main characters are not part of this movie. The hunt for Luke gets Poe captured, gets BB-8 loose on Jakku, gets Finn to leave the First Order and rescue Poe, gets Rey off Jakku, gets Han mixed up in the whole mess, etc. It pulls all our primary characters into the larger conflict between the Resistance/Republic and the First Order, and thereby the attack on Starkiller. Furiosa smuggling the wives out of the Citadel is to Max as the hunt for Luke is to Rey/Finn.
Without the hunt for Luke, our main characters are not part of this movie. The hunt for Luke gets Poe captured, gets BB-8 loose on Jakku, gets Finn to leave the First Order and rescue Poe, gets Rey off Jakku, gets Han mixed up in the whole mess, etc. It pulls all our primary characters into the larger conflict between the Resistance/Republic and the First Order, and thereby the attack on Starkiller. Furiosa smuggling the wives out of the Citadel is to Max as the hunt for Luke is to Rey/Finn.
I think the inner fanboy in Mike was relieved the movie was good
Jest Chillin
Member
I think it's expressed in his actions in the tail end of RotS. Even after he's told that Palpatine doesn't yet have the ability to save Padme, he resigns himself follow Palpatine because he knows he needs a wise leader and that his actions are past the point of no return for The Council. He needs guidance. Desires it. He was raised as a servant initially and was essentially the same for the Council as well. Even his offer to Padme to kill Palpatine and rule with her seemed to fit as he's already established in the previous film that he thinks she's an amazing ruler.
Anakin wants to be subservient to someone, provided he thinks they're wiser than he is. Even as Vader in the OT he knows he's technically stronger than Palpatine but is loyal to a fault. That's only changed by the love of his son.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
If they found Luke earlier, then it becomes A New Hope with Luke and Han as the heroes, and not The Force Awakens with Finn and Rey saving the day.
Jest Chillin
Member
Yeah, I don't agree with the idea that the whole film is about finding Luke. To be honest, Luke and the map to finding him strike me as MacGuffins.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
You're ok.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JkMICAnBkM
No one is saying that's what the film is about.
It's the motivation of the main players. Resistance (Leia/Poe) and The First Order (Kylo/Snoke)
The Lamonster
Member
Luke has a female friend with him at the Tosche Station deleted scene from ANH. Her name was Camie.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
You're ok.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JkMICAnBkM
No one is saying that's what the film is about.
It's the motivation of the main players. Resistance (Leia/Poe) and The First Order (Kylo/Snoke)
-Opening scene is about Ren trying to find the piece of the map
-Finn turns on his Stormtrooper duties because he doesn't want to kill those people
-Rey gets pulled into all of this by BB8, the droid who has the piece of the map
-Rey sticks around longer because "holy shit, Luke Skywalker?!"
-Ren and the First Order want to find Luke
-Resistance wants to find Luke
-The First Order tries to blow up the Resistance home base because the First Order thinks they're close to finding Luke
I'd say the movie is about finding Luke since finding Luke seems to be the thing that drives almost the entire plot
Anakin would have been stronger than Palpatine if he hadn't gotten chopped up. In one of the few instances where we get an actual "power level" statement, Lucas stated that Vader would have had double the power that Palpatine has if he had maintained his natural form, but that in his cyborg form he is only 80% Palpatine's power.
That said, I agree that Vader is loyal to Palpatine because of his desire for order. He hates himself because he thinks of himself as a failure and even though he knows Palpatine played him, he did it so masterfully that Palpatine deserves to be in charge. He wants to overthrow him in RotS because he's on a power drop but when he gets wrecked and Padme dies at his own hand the last drop of humanity drains out and he's left with nothing else in his life but the Empire and its ruler, so he puts all his effort into becoming stronger and stronger to give his life meaning by enforcing the will of the emperor.
But even in the OT, he wanted to overthrow Palpatine. That's made explicity in ESB. The new canon, extrapolating outwards, makes it obvious that he is loyal to Palpatine until he learns that he has a son, at which point he goes berserk upon realizing that Palpatine lied to him about Padme. That's when he decides that he will rule the galaxy. Probably the best moment in the Star Wars/Vader comics so far.
How can you say the "main operative" is Kylo? Hux oversees both the Stormtrooper enslavement / programming operation and the build-a-weapon-that-kills-trillions-of-people operation. Kylo... kills some defenseless villagers. What's more "God" mode than raining cleansing fires down on six systems simultaneously? The Resistance drives Kylo off by landing like two troop carriers and gaining air superiority.
Well, yeah. It's good they didn't do that. That'd be a totally different movie, obliviously.
Exactly. Secondary is a more straightforward battle between the resistance and FO. Primary is all leading to who finds Luke first. Resistance is looking for him. FO is looking for him. Opening crawl is literally dedicated to him. Resistance finds him in the end. The first words we even see are "Luke Skywalker has vanished."
Blue Ninja
Member
They should've just clarified the map wasn't specifically leading to Luke, but to the first Jedi temple.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Anakin didn't lie to Padme here. He simply ignored her statement and changed subject.
#Lucas4life
Jest Chillin
Member
It seemed that was what the debate was about. Whether the point of the film was finding Luke or whether it was just the plot device.
Maybe I'm mistaken in my definition but isn't that what a MacGuffin is? A plot device that ultimately doesn't have much, if any, function within the film itself? It's a reason for characters to do things without ever actually coming into play. Or am I wrong there?
Oooh. I didn't know about the bold at all as I haven't read any of the new EU stuff. I'll have to look into it.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
The opening crawl mentions finding Luke. It's the general idea of the movie. However that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a focus on the multiple different goals in the movie... I don't see how this is even an issue to some people.
That's what the movie is mainly about; the movie literally tells you that. It's not what the ENTIRE movie is about, but that much is obvious. The secondary plot point is destroying Starkiller base.
Exactly. No one here is saying it's only about Luke, but that's the driving point of the movie.
Bingo.
A Plot = Finding Luke
B Plot = Stopping the First Order
C Plot = Finn/Poe
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Sorry, I could have sworn I added ONE OF THE MAIN...
Your crack about being a different movie is looking at it only at a surface level.
Those new characters are nothing, if they don't have a chance to stand on their own.
Luke being there early, would overshadow the 2 of them, especially if he's side by side with Han.
Yup. I'd actually combine the last two:
A Plot = Finding Luke
B Plot = Stopping the First Order
FriendlyGoat
Member
The debate is kind of whirling around varying understanding of the importance and attribution of the word "about". The plot of the movie and the machinations bringing characters together and pushing them around is superficially "about" finding Luke, but it is really about the characters and their journeys. It is about Finn running from and subsequently facing the First Order. It is about Han running from the conflict arguably rising from his own offspring and ultimately confronting his son. It is about Rey looking to the past and ultimately looking to the future. And it is also hinting at a future "about" Luke finding or confronting whatever the hell he is looking for or running from.
Jest Chillin
Member
Finding Luke is what drives the plot but the movie is about the origin of the new characters, Finn, Rey, and Kylo. It's the beginning of their story in the Star Wars Universe.
Edit: This wasn't in response to you FriendlyGoat, your resposnse wasn't up yet when I started my reply.
Edit: This wasn't in response to you FriendlyGoat, your resposnse wasn't up yet when I started my reply.
Took my daughter yesterday to watch TFA again, but this time on the real IMAX screen here in Orlando. This was our second viewing. Still a great movie, and real IMAX is always a treat.
I think Kylo was the best developed character in the movie. His backstory is fairly explained (with some mystery still left), we get to see him struggle with his identity, and have a fateful meeting with a parent. I wasn't too keen on the character after my first viewing, but now I'm interested to see where his arc goes.
Finn is a fun character, and Boyega did a solid acting job. I hope Ep 8 expands more on how the First Order gets new troops, like he was as a baby. I don't know where the writers go with the character, other than being Rey's love interest. Maybe he goes to search for his family (like Rey will do)??
Poe is a plot device in TFA, and little more. Capt Phasma is basically a non-character in the movie.
Rey is the new Anakin for the trilogy, but this time Daisey did a great job as the character. My 7yo daughter absolutely loves Rey, and that's all that really matters to me. Like I said, Rey is the new Anakin....skilled mechanic, gifted pilot, little-to-no struggle with anything (including the Force) in the movie. She's essentially perfect, with her only flaw (if it can be considered one) is that she doesn't accept that her family isn't coming back. Rey gets to be not only the new Master Jedi of the trilogy, but also the new Han Solo, being the new Falcon owner/pilot and having Chewie as a sidekick & all.
Loved BB-8. I think i'll be buying one of my kids a remote controlled version
But it's easy to dismiss critics of the movie as sexist and even racist. So there's that.
I think Kylo was the best developed character in the movie. His backstory is fairly explained (with some mystery still left), we get to see him struggle with his identity, and have a fateful meeting with a parent. I wasn't too keen on the character after my first viewing, but now I'm interested to see where his arc goes.
Finn is a fun character, and Boyega did a solid acting job. I hope Ep 8 expands more on how the First Order gets new troops, like he was as a baby. I don't know where the writers go with the character, other than being Rey's love interest. Maybe he goes to search for his family (like Rey will do)??
Poe is a plot device in TFA, and little more. Capt Phasma is basically a non-character in the movie.
Rey is the new Anakin for the trilogy, but this time Daisey did a great job as the character. My 7yo daughter absolutely loves Rey, and that's all that really matters to me. Like I said, Rey is the new Anakin....skilled mechanic, gifted pilot, little-to-no struggle with anything (including the Force) in the movie. She's essentially perfect, with her only flaw (if it can be considered one) is that she doesn't accept that her family isn't coming back. Rey gets to be not only the new Master Jedi of the trilogy, but also the new Han Solo, being the new Falcon owner/pilot and having Chewie as a sidekick & all.
Loved BB-8. I think i'll be buying one of my kids a remote controlled version
But it's easy to dismiss critics of the movie as sexist and even racist. So there's that.
Luke has a female friend with him at the Tosche Station deleted scene from ANH. Her name was Camie.
Now i want camie brought back in, in say Rogue one.
Right. this is a better way of conveying what I was trying to say, thank you. Finding Luke is the driving force behind the plot but obviously it's about so much more than that and juggles underlying themes.
excelsiorlef
Member
Fuck yes!
Liquidsnake
Banned
Han said "Last I heard he was searching for the first Jedi Temple."
excelsiorlef
Member
Oh boy. You're back to this argument. They literally make it clear that all actions are about the good guys finding Luke and the bad guys stopping them at all costs.
Edit: though yes everything in between is character development
Probably posted earlier but just in case:
http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Snok...s-Picture-Make-You-Do-Double-Take-104497.html
Gotta admit the placement of the wound DID made me do a bit of a double take. Probably nothing to it, though.
I mean, the only way I can see this working is if Kylo used the DNA scraped from Vader's helmet to create a clone of Vader by going to Kamino, plugging in the machinery, and pulling a Jurassic Park by using Kaminoan DNA to fill in the blanks (since Snoke kind of looks like a Kaminoan mixed with a defeated old Anakin if you cross your eyes funny)
Would even solve the Serkis problem since it would be a clone/amalgam and therefore an original character by definition.
http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Snok...s-Picture-Make-You-Do-Double-Take-104497.html
Gotta admit the placement of the wound DID made me do a bit of a double take. Probably nothing to it, though.
I mean, the only way I can see this working is if Kylo used the DNA scraped from Vader's helmet to create a clone of Vader by going to Kamino, plugging in the machinery, and pulling a Jurassic Park by using Kaminoan DNA to fill in the blanks (since Snoke kind of looks like a Kaminoan mixed with a defeated old Anakin if you cross your eyes funny)
Would even solve the Serkis problem since it would be a clone/amalgam and therefore an original character by definition.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
If the Empire had a map to the first Jedi temple, wouldn't Sheev have already looted and destroyed it or something?
Which drives the film from start to finish.. not to say it's the only important piece of the movie, of course.
FriendlyGoat
Member
They didn't though. This is the last piece of that map. They clearly had 2/3 of the map pieced together before the Death Star and then Palpatine himself both got popped but were missing the crucial last piece.
excelsiorlef
Member
Exactly.
Haha. While the similarities in the picture are definitely there, there would be no forgiveness for such a convoluted plot. That would even surpass prequel level writing.
The crazy thing with the Luke quest is how much of a mess the third act is. We set up the first two by putting all this weight on getting BB-8 to the Resistance. The question all our "good guy" heroes ask themselves is "do I care about my selfish thing or do I care about engaging with the Resistance". That's the whole Maz sequence is all of them trying to or wanting to abdicate the duty: Finn so he can flee, Rey so she can return to Jakku, Han so he can avoid seeing Leia and be forced to think about Kylo. But then we get BB-8 to Leia (totally on accident, right: Leia just shows up where BB-8 is) and all that momentum just kind of... stops. We put that on hold, with no real clear path forward. Then we do a bunch of things that don't actually move us closer to finding Luke, R2 just happens to wake up and solve that problem for us. It's such a crazy pacing decision.
This movie contrives so much so awkwardly. Maz convinced Han to make the emotional decision to go to Leia... but then instead of actually going to Leia, she just shows up.
We want Luke for vague unspecified reasons... until we have a Force User in Rey: then we just all of a sudden have a path to Luke.
This movie contrives so much so awkwardly. Maz convinced Han to make the emotional decision to go to Leia... but then instead of actually going to Leia, she just shows up.
We want Luke for vague unspecified reasons... until we have a Force User in Rey: then we just all of a sudden have a path to Luke.
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