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[FlashbladeGAF]

Going back to something you said earlier

The crazy thing with the Luke quest is how much of a mess the third act is. We set up the first two by putting all this weight on getting BB-8 to the Resistance. The question all our "good guy" heroes ask themselves is "do I care about my selfish thing or do I care about engaging with the Resistance". That's the whole Maz sequence is all of them trying to or wanting to abdicate the duty: Finn so he can flee, Rey so she can return to Jakku, Han so he can avoid seeing Leia and be forced to think about Kylo. But then we get BB-8 to Leia (totally on accident, right: Leia just shows up where BB-8 is) and all that momentum just kind of... stops. We put that on hold, with no real clear path forward. Then we do a bunch of things that don't actually move us closer to finding Luke, R2 just happens to wake up and solve that problem for us. It's such a crazy pacing decision.

This movie contrives so much so awkwardly. Maz convinced Han to make the emotional decision to go to Leia... but then instead of actually going to Leia, she just shows up.

We want Luke for vague unspecified reasons... until we have a Force User in Rey: then we just all of a sudden have a path to Luke.

I agree with you that the whole movie isn't ACTUALLY about finding Luke.

But it IS the main motivator for the two groups.

Like people have said, finding Luke has to take a backseat, when you get intel that Starkiller base is charging it's weapon at YOU!

They had to put finding Luke on hold, because 1. Starkiller Base JUST took out a system along with the Senate, so their power is real and they are next. And 2. the piece of the map they got WAS Luke's actual location, but it was part of an unknown galaxy. Without the complete star charts they were back to square one, which is why we got the small scene with Leia being frustrated.

They had to immediately attack SK Base or end up getting wiped out.
If they said F SKB, just continue searching, then no one could look for Luke because the Resistance is all dead. Minus a couple stragglers.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

It's a badass moment.

And we're due to see a new Force practitioner so strong he doesn't need a saber to block blaster fire.

I mean, Kylo is kind of already there. Seeing him freeze a blaster bolt mid air was a pretty "holy shit" moment.

 

[hipsterpants]

Maybe Kylo will kill Leia and Luke too and go 3/3.

How is Luke going to die anyway? Peaceful and Yoda-esque? Or some dramatic moment at the end of episode VIII? No way he survives it all.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

I mean, Kylo is kind of already there. Seeing him freeze a blaster bolt mid air was a pretty "holy shit" moment.

That moment to me felt like the moment he was looking for when he killed his Father

Both instances, he killed someone important to his past while a sniper shot him from a distance.
Only the death in the beginning allowed him to reach closer to the power of the dark side 9with added strength boost), while his father's death, (a death that he knew would affect him more) didn't give him the feeling (or get him any closer to the dark side) that he had hoped.

Which is why he was hit by Chewie's blaster

 

[Kitschkraft]

Maybe Kylo will kill Leia and Luke too and go 3/3.

I'd actually like this.

Make him the most hated villain in the history of the franchise.

I'm wondering if him and Leia get any interaction, and how that will play out (If it happens).

 

[prag16]

What have I done?

20 seconds later

I will do whatever you ask

I pledge myself to your teachings. To the ways of the Sith

Yep. This was a great scene.. this was almost as intense for me as Rey grabbing the lightsaber if not more so. I had chills around the time of the "what have I done". Good reaction and delivery from Christensen.

But then IMMEDIATELY after that he bails, and flips a switch, and is murdering children. Fuck.

There was a missing link there, big time.

 

[Fencedude]

The movie doesn't even feel like they are even looking for Luke. My wife complained that the film was a waste. They spend 2hrs doing a whole lotta of nothing which I agreed. What was the purpose of the light saber? The cantina? The alien monster thing with the pirates? The star killer? I found all of that useless. They could've found Luke earlier and have him train Rey a bit with the force and still have kylo kill Han. I think they are trapped for the next films with Rey as Lucas trapped himself with anakin being young in the first one and the sudden fall to the dark side in the end.

By this logic no story has a point because something else could happen and short-circuit it.

Like, this complaint literally has no basis in anything.

 

[Brakke]

I agree with you that the whole movie isn't ACTUALLY about finding Luke.

But it IS the main motivator for the two groups.

Like people have said, finding Luke has to take a backseat, when you get intel that Starkiller base is charging it's weapon at YOU!

They had to put finding Luke on hold, because 1. Starkiller Base JUST took out a system along with the Senate, so their power is real and they are next. And 2. the piece of the map they got WAS Luke's actual location, but it was part of an unknown galaxy. Without the complete star charts they were back to square one, which is why we got the small scene with Leia being frustrated.

They had to immediately attack SK Base or end up getting wiped out.
If they said F SKB, just continue searching, then no one could look for Luke because the Resistance is all dead. Minus a couple stragglers.

Yeah for sure I agree with all this. I don't think the characters are making a bad decision by changing focus to battle Starkiller. Of course they should! I think it's kind of lame that the movie put them in that position. Because like I said, it arrests the momentum of delivering BB-8 and it leads to that weird kludge at the end with R2. Overall, the flow of the movie gets super messy when we get to Starkiller. And the moment when we learn that the map is incomplete is weird and jarring. Oh, so we went through all this emotional turmoil and introspection and in the end... didn't really accomplish our goal by delivering this robot. Huh.

There's no victory in delivering BB-8. It doesn't move us closer to Luke (or at least, it brings us to a dead end there), and we have two more important concerns now anyway: saving Rey and blasting Starkiller. Finn going back for Rey who was abandoned on Jakku is a lovely thing and I really liked their reunion. So in some sense, this hard priority shift from Luke to these other things is fine and even good, I just don't think that shift is elegantly done.

 

[Hawkian]

i can't believe anakin skywalker murders children in 1/3 of the movies in which he appears.

 

[Schweinehund]

Watched it for the second time tonight, held up pretty well on second viewing, though I noticed even more just how badly Kylo Ren was beat down. Phasma didn't do anything and may as well not have existed. There wasn't an ace first order pilot either, po took out like 6 tie fighters in a row no problem.

Hoping we get more serious antagonists, First Order was weak as hell.

 

[Squall ASF]

I agree, Luke is more useful as an instrument for Rey than in himself.

It's almost 50/50 if he'll amount to much more than that (besides recounting what happened at his academy and maybe giving hints about Snoke and his power). Either he finds something critical at the first Jedi temple that allows him to successfully run a new Jedi Academy which is the one way he lives past the trilogy and is plausible because there's bound to be a Jedi academy going forward and it's kind of silly to expect Rey to train others so soon after learning herself unless there's a big time skip (which is possible). OR Luke will die in this trilogy in which case he was merely an instrument to empower Rey. Although with option 2, he could still find something useful in the temple and contribute some other way before kicking the bucket I suppose. So not quite 50/50 but you get the idea.

I'm curious as to how much Luke knows about Snoke. It's possible he's never actually met him an doesn't know much. It would have been sufficient to send a bunch of storm troopers and the Knights of Ren to wipe out Luke's academy, Snoke wouldn't have to go there himself. You gotta figure Luke is looking for the academy either to search for artifacts and information that help him successfully run an academy this time around, or to dig up information on Sith to help him deal with Snoke. I personally think the former sounds more likely but then it might be something else entirely as they'd probably want to surprise the audience with some big revelation.

Watched it for the second time tonight, held up pretty well on second viewing, though I noticed even more just how badly Kylo Ren was beat down. Phasma didn't do anything and may as well not have existed. There wasn't an ace first order pilot either, po took out like 6 tie fighters in a row no problem.

Hoping we get more serious antagonists, First Order was weak as hell.

The one thing I've seen about Del Torro's character is that he's supposed to be a villain. If that's true, he plays excellent villains so hype. I wonder what he'd be... a bounty hunter the First Order hires? Maybe an officer in the wings and Hux gets executed by Snoke for failing to protect Starkiller Base and eradicate the Resistance base which promotes Torro's character to General in his stead? Somehow I don't think he'll be a sith but I could be wrong, of course.

 

[MollyWhomp]

I like that Han doesn't even think twice, he just pulls out his blaster and immediately shoots at Darth fucking Vader. This man had to be frozen in carbonite twice. Once for him and once for his giant set of balls.

What if there was cosplay in the Star Wars universe? In our world, people dress as world leaders all the time (usually around Halloween, but whatever). What if some Cloud City rando decided to come to lunch in his wicked Darth Vader costume and Han just shoots him dead? That would be a grim lunch.

 

[televator]

I paid real close attention both times I watched it. I cite just as much evidence as anyone. Some people just weight their evidence differently than they weight mine.

Then you are disregarding whole points of the movie. There's nothing vague about the search for Luke in general. It's only purposefully vague for Rey, but for Leia and the Resistence the goal is very clear -- literally from the beginning of the movie.

 

[Brakke]

Can't pull the images out on iPhone but this is cute. https://twitter.com/leah_07hp_/status/684623120565538817

 

[Brakke]

Then you are disregarding whole points of the movie. There's nothing vague about the search for Luke in general. It's only purposefully vague for Rey, but for Leia and the Resistence the goal is very clear -- literally from the beginning of the movie.

You're also disregarding things in the movie then. Leia may believe that Luke will help her achieve her goal of defeating the Order but we don't have any reason to think she's correct in that assessment. Her big Starkiller problem she solves by deploying Poe and the ground team (Luke's involvement wouldn't really help her achieve this); her Kylo problem she tries to solve by pep-talking Han (who she expressly believes is better-qualified than Luke to accomplish this task).

So until we have a Rey who needs training, it's totally unclear what we're going to accomplish by finding Luke. Do we think Luke is some kind of military strategy genius? Do we need him to challenge Snoke to a one-on-one duel? Snoke's already beaten Luke once in a battle of influence / persuasion.

It's weird that the Order doesn't really have a clear path to finding Luke without the Old Ally's map. If dude had just kept his trap shut about that map, he wouldn't have risked it falling into an adversary's hand. There's not even any particular urgency in finding Luke at the beginning, the Order are no nearer to finding Luke than the Resistance are.

If finding Luke was anything more than a side project for Leia, why didn't she invest more than a single damn dude toward retrieving the map? I guess she just has a whole lot of faith in her people, since she goes on to rest the fate of her people and the cause of freedom on the back of a geriatric and a two-days-defected, no-plan-having enemy *private*. And Chewie. Probably Chewie could've gotten it done on his own, that dude is a champ.

 

[Jest Chillin]

i can't believe anakin skywalker murders children in 1/3 of the movies in which he appears.

I think you meant to type 2/3?

But honestly.. if you think about it.. the way most kids fall into a dead sleep from boredom when watching TPM, you can kind of spin it as 3/3.

 

[Veelk]

You're also disregarding things in the movie then. Leia may believe that Luke will help her achieve her goal of defeating the Order but we don't have any reason to think she's correct in that assessment.

The better question is why she needs to reveal a specific reason. She may or may not have one, but who the fuck in the whole galaxy wouldn't want Luke Skywalker, literally the hero of the Rebellion since the day he's joined, on their side when fighting The Empire 2.0?

The problem I think people have with you is that you are applying a level of scrutiny that isn't applied to the original trilogy. Or maybe you do, but you haven't given examples of it. But the OT would crumble in your hands if you demanded answers to every tiny irrelevant thing like you do here.

Why did Leia think Obiwan was the best messenger to send the deathstar plans to? Specifically speaking, what was her reasoning? And why are we to assume she's correct in this assessment? We don't have that information. She knew Obiwan was her ally and we know he's a Jedi, meaning he's got capabilities. That's it. We don't know what her other options were nor her reasoning for why she feels those other options were not viable. And we don't need to know. We can trust her judgement in ANH.

Why can't we trust her judgement that she says they also need Luke?

 

[Brakke]

I think you meant to type 2/3?

But honestly.. if you think about it.. the way most kids fall into a dead sleep from boredom when watching TPM, you can kind of spin it as 3/3.

Anakin/Vader doesn't kill any kids in the OT. So it's 2/6. Unless you wanna give him credit for blowing up Alderaan?

 

[inm8num2]

Devin's not done yet.

Han Solo: All Things Must Pass

 

[Jest Chillin]

Anakin/Vader doesn't kill any kids in the OT. So it's 2/6. Unless you wanna give him credit for blowing up Alderaan?

If you're going to get that technical, then Anakin is 3/4 as he's Vader in Ep 4 and 5 and only returns to being Anakin shortly before death in Ep 6.

Still, you're killing the joke man. -_-

 

[Brakke]

The better question is why she needs to reveal a specific reason. She may or may not have one, but who the fuck in the whole galaxy wouldn't want Luke Skywalker, literally the hero of the Rebellion since the day he's joined, on their side when fighting The Empire 2.0?

Always, always, the point is what reads dramatically. There's nothing that makes Luke seem uniquely qualified to deal with the Order's threat. And indeed the movie goes on to demonstrate multiple times that he isn't essential or even obviously helpful. So the only reason we care about him coming back is that we know he's cool BUT the movie also goes and gives us reason to doubt our assessment of his coolness, since he failed and then fled. The Whole Thing with Luke going into exile is to say "hey this guy is different than you remember him". He literally chose to not be involved in this fight. So we have to doubt his interest in his old friends.

The problem I think people have with you is that you are applying a level of scrutiny that isn't applied to the original trilogy. Or maybe you do, but you haven't given examples of it.

Well that's a ridiculous metric since the title of this thread is The Force Awakens, not All Star Wars Ever. And I have done some scrutinizing of the OT anyway. Of course we discuss this movie more than the OT.

I even *just* blew off Luke's heroism by giving Lando the nod for bopping the Emperor but for a technicality.

Why did Leia think Obiwan was the best messenger to send the deathstar plans to? Specifically speaking, what was her reasoning? And why are we to assume she's correct in this assessment? We don't have that information. She knew Obiwan was her ally and we know he's a Jedi, meaning he's got capabilities. That's it. We don't know what her other options were nor her reasoning for why she feels those other options were not viable. And we don't need to know. We can trust her judgement in ANH.

She doesn't seek out Obi-Wan though. She would've delivered the plans herself but she was waylaid near Tattooine (a backwater the war basically hasn't reached: Luke only has vague rumors about the Rebellion, which is why he's excited that Obi-Wan knows things), so he was the only choice. Sending the plans to him is a desperate move: it's not even clear that she's ever met him.

If you're going to get that technical, then Anakin is 3/4 as he's Vader in Ep 4 and 5 and only returns to being Anakin shortly before death in Ep 6.

Still, you're killing the joke man. -_-

I liked your joke.

 

[Tatsumi Oga]

Reading rumours that Hayden Christensen might come back in ep 8? Please no...just....no!

No matter if it's 5 seconds or 10, that'll be 5 or 10 seconds too many, a BAD idea.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

Reading rumours that Hayden Christensen might come back in ep 8? Please no...just....no!

No matter if it's 5 seconds or 10, that'll be 5 or 10 seconds too many, a BAD idea.

For some reason I liked Jumper, even though he was inconsistent.
I think he would be fine if he had a director that prioritized performance over spectacle.

But I can't see a reason to have him in it.
I try to ignore the special edition of ROTJ

yubyub4life

 

[Loris146]

Reading rumours that Hayden Christensen might come back in ep 8? Please no...just....no!

No matter if it's 5 seconds or 10, that'll be 5 or 10 seconds too many, a BAD idea.

He will return as a sand ghost.

 

[Jest Chillin]

IIRC Leia doesn't know Obi Wan directly, she was just told about him by her father Bail as someone she could trust.

 

[prag16]

Reading rumours that Hayden Christensen might come back in ep 8? Please no...just....no!

No matter if it's 5 seconds or 10, that'll be 5 or 10 seconds too many, a BAD idea.

Irrational prequel hate. How edgy.

 

[Zabka]

Devin's not done yet.

Han Solo: All Things Must Pass

What a waste of time. Honestly, people should just read the article linked in the piece by Austin Walker at Giant Bomb.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Reading rumours that Hayden Christensen might come back in ep 8? Please no...just....no!

No matter if it's 5 seconds or 10, that'll be 5 or 10 seconds too many, a BAD idea.

Pretty sure that's pure speculation based on rejected concept art for TFA.

 

[Liquidsnake]

Reading rumours that Hayden Christensen might come back in ep 8? Please no...just....no!

No matter if it's 5 seconds or 10, that'll be 5 or 10 seconds too many, a BAD idea.

They would handle it in a way that will make us all appreciate him so much.

 

[televator]

You're also disregarding things in the movie then. Leia may believe that Luke will help her achieve her goal of defeating the Order but we don't have any reason to think she's correct in that assessment. Her big Starkiller problem she solves by deploying Poe and the ground team (Luke's involvement wouldn't really help her achieve this); her Kylo problem she tries to solve by pep-talking Han (who she expressly believes is better-qualified than Luke to accomplish this task).

So until we have a Rey who needs training, it's totally unclear what we're going to accomplish by finding Luke. Do we think Luke is some kind of military strategy genius? Do we need him to challenge Snoke to a one-on-one duel? Snoke's already beaten Luke once in a battle of influence / persuasion.

It's weird that the Order doesn't really have a clear path to finding Luke without the Old Ally's map. If dude had just kept his trap shut about that map, he wouldn't have risked it falling into an adversary's hand. There's not even any particular urgency in finding Luke at the beginning, the Order are no nearer to finding Luke than the Resistance are.

If finding Luke was anything more than a side project for Leia, why didn't she invest more than a single damn dude toward retrieving the map? I guess she just has a whole lot of faith in her people, since she goes on to rest the fate of her people and the cause of freedom on the back of a geriatric and a two-days-defected, no-plan-having enemy *private*. And Chewie. Probably Chewie could've gotten it done on his own, that dude is a champ.

I'm not leaving out anything, but you are really stretching to find some sort of logical gap where there is none. If you are willing to do that much, I don't think there's any point in debating you further. Objectively the film is more consistent than you pretend it is.

 

[Veelk]

Always, always, the point is what reads dramatically. There's nothing that makes Luke seem uniquely qualified to deal with the Order's threat. And indeed the movie goes on to demonstrate multiple times that he isn't essential or even obviously helpful. So the only reason we care about him coming back is that we know he's cool BUT the movie also goes and gives us reason to doubt our assessment of his coolness, since he failed and then fled. The Whole Thing with Luke going into exile is to say "hey this guy is different than you remember him". He literally chose to not be involved in this fight. So we have to doubt his interest in his old friends.

You act like Leia has some foresight that she knows exactly who will and will not be necessary before the events of the movie happen. How would she know that Luke wouldn't influence the battle in some monumental way, like he has done so many times in the past without her planning for it? Leia needs Luke because she needs all the power she can get. He's a Jedi Master and the defining hero the the destruction of the empire. Between the morale he would boost and the skills he would bring to the table, the reason why he's desirable to have as a war asset is so obvious that it doesn't need explanation.

That's what I mean, basic common sense stuff that anyone could infer, you demand a specific, verifable reason that would drag down the story with unnecessary exposition.

Well that's a ridiculous metric since the title of this thread is The Force Awakens, not All Star Wars Ever. And I have done some scrutinizing of the OT anyway. Of course we discuss this movie more than the OT.

Yeah, but you've used the OT as a metric against TFA before. The OT would be crushed under this level of scrutiny as much as TFA would, so i consider it a legitimate question to ask how you regard the plot points and characters of the OT if this is the level of specificity you demand of the TFA.

She doesn't seek out Obi-Wan though. She would've delivered the plans herself but she was waylaid near Tattooine (a backwater the war basically hasn't reached: Luke only has vague rumors about the Rebellion, which is why he's excited that Obi-Wan knows things), so he was the only choice. Sending the plans to him is a desperate move: it's not even clear that she's ever met him.

See, you don't know any of that. She never explicitly gave that reasoning, and you don't know her network of connections nor do you know the layout of the area. You're inferring that from the general situation. She's captured, it was a last ditch effort, so either Obiwan is the best or only guy in the area capable of doing the thing she wants him to do. If you applied the same level of scutiny to this scene as you do TFA, you'd be demanding to know how she knows Obiwan is her only option here. You'd be demanding to have access to all her information to make sure you're coming to the same conclusion she does, rather than just trusting her word.

It's ridiculous. Use basic inferential reasoning and trust that characters you know are competent know wtf they're talking about, and half your complaints about the movie disappear.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

What a waste of time. Honestly, people should just read the article linked in the piece by Austin Walker at Giant Bomb.

Why is it a "waste of time"?

 

[Brakke]

I'm not leaving out anything, but you are really stretching to find some sort of logical gap where there is none. If you are willing to do that much, I don't think there's any point in debating you further. Objectively the film is more consistent than you pretend it is.

I don't even know with you guys sometimes. Nothing there is about consistency except the last paragraph where I *excuse* Leia's decisions about how much to invest in her missions by noting how *she is* consistent.

 

[Brakke]

You act like Leia has some foresight that she knows exactly who will and will not be necessary before the events of the movie happen. How would she know that Luke wouldn't influence the battle in some monumental way, like he has done so many times in the past without her planning for it? Leia needs Luke because she needs all the power she can get. He's a Jedi Master and the defining hero the the destruction of the empire. Between the morale he would boost and the skills he would bring to the table, he is obviously a desirable element within the war.

I don't think she's wrong to want to find Luke. Of course she wants to and of course she should want to. At the start of the movie, yes, of course: we should find Luke! Duh. I was on board. Then the movie undermined what Luke means by showing how he's failed and fled, and then it literally goes out of its way to show he isn't essential, by putting the pause on the search for him in order to go blow up a Death Star and (attempt to) redeem a bad guy.

Blowing up Death Stars and redeeming Bad Guys are Luke's signature moves! If we don't need him for those things, then why do we need him? Well, we need him to train Rey apparently. So the movie makes a weird see-saw from we need Luke to well maybe we don't need to him to oh after all we do need him. It's sloppy. That's a pretty gentle criticism.

See, you don't know any of that. She never explicitly gave that reasoning, and you don't know her network of connections nor do you know the layout of the area. You're inferring that from the general situation. She's captured, it was a last ditch effort, so either Obiwan is the best or only guy in the area capable of doing the thing she wants him to do. If you applied the same level of scutiny to this scene as you do TFA, you'd be demanding to know how she knows Obiwan is her only option here. You'd be demanding to have access to all her information to make sure you're coming to the same conclusion she does, rather than just trusting her word.

It's ridiculous. Use basic inferential reasoning, and half your complaints about the movie disappear.

You're going to deny my reasonable inferential reading of Leia's message to Obi-Wan and then accuse me of not doing reasonable inferences in the same breath?

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Devin's not done yet.

Han Solo: All Things Must Pass

Han's death didn't resonate? News to me. Totally agree with his praise for Kylo and Driver though.

 

[DrForester]

 

[Veelk]

You're going to deny my reasonable inferential reading of Leia's message to Obi-Wan and then accuse me of not doing reasonable inferences in the same breath?

No, I'm saying you DO infer things in OT, but not in TFA. I'm saying you're using a double standard between the films, and that's not a fair way to critique them. If you want to be a stringent bastard on TFA, fine, but then you have to apply those same standards to the OT, which will render them as incoherent as you currently perceive TFA to be.

 

[StrongArmSteady]

rofl these twitter parodies are amazing.

 

[bigwinnerx]

Going Saturday for #5, #3 at Alamo Drafthouse, but, more importantly, #1 for both of my daughters. Can't wait.

 

[Brakke]

No, I'm saying you DO infer things in OT, but not in TFA. I'm saying you're using a double standard between the films, and that's not a fair way to critique them. If you want to be a stringent bastard on TFA, fine, but then you have to apply those same standards to the OT, which will render them as incoherent as you currently perceive TFA to be.

I'm pretty sure we don't call each other "bastards" on this board but you do you.

But this is silly. I'm totally willing to scrutinize the OT. I think it's a much more successful film than TFA but there's no doubt some dumb nonsense kludges in there. That movie is older than I am so, you know, I'm less interested in digging through it, having already spent more than two decades doing that.

But what does your "double standards" argument achieve, even if it was an accurate read? Why do you care what I do or don't think about the OT? And why should I care about some arbitrary consistency test you want to impose on me? I'm not really interested in persuading you of anything at this point, it's clear to me you're pretty much settled on this movie. What even is "fairness"? These are movies, not humans. I'm not going to hurt TFA's feelings.

I even basically like this movie, and I've said so several times. It's totally worth seeing. And nobody cares if I think it's worth seeing anyway: everyone and their mom saw this movie. I think it's cool that pretty much everybody I interact with has his movie as a shared experience. That's interesting and cool. I wonder what do you think my end game is here? I'm making observations about the film, and some people are finding them interesting or provacative. That's pretty much all I'm trying to achieve.

 

[Toa TAK]

That Twitter convo makes me wonder what they'll say to each other should they meet in VIII.

 

[Lifejumper]

That Twitter convo makes me wonder what they'll say to each other should they meet in VIII.

Will Luke try to bring him to the light? After what he did to his students?

 

[Ashhong]

Hanfromthegrave is the perfect twitter handle.

 

[Veelk]

I'm pretty sure we don't call each other "bastards" on this board but you do you.

Chill, it's a figure of speech. When I insult people, they know it.

But what does your "double standards" argument achieve, even if it was an accurate read? Why do you care what I do or don't think about the OT? And why should I care about some arbitrary consistency test you want to impose on me? I'm not really interested in persuading you of anything at this point, it's clear to me you're pretty much settled on this movie. What even is "fairness"? These are movies, not humans. I'm not going to hurt TFA's feelings.

Because double standards are a poor argument and imply that TFA is less coherent than the other movies when it's not. I use the OT as a point of reference, but you could break most movies apart with this level of scrutiny. Mad Max Fury Road would be considered a disasterous failure if we didn't infer things about the characters from the use of visual langauage and subtle cues the movie offers us.

Like you, I'm not interested in persuading anyone of anything. What I'm calling out here is poor argumentative form. It's essentially impossible to persuade others on these things as people typically don't like to re-evaluate their opinions on something. So, how you feel about TFA is your own business and immaterial to me, but in the interest of bettering Neogaf as a discussion form, I discourage poor arguments where I can. If you were doing this level of scrutiny with the PT, I'd be pointing out the double standard there as well (well, assuming I'd catch it. That stuff is harder to spot when it comes to movies that have legitimate issues, which is all the more reason to be as fair as possible).

You're not producing interesting discussion when you're trying to quibble about minute and irrelevant issues anyone can resolve with minimal inferential reasoning.

 

[Toa TAK]

Will Luke try to bring him to the light? After what he did to his students?

I think he might.

But Kylo Ren won't budge.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I wonder what do you think my end game is here?

It's a question that's occurred to me awhile ago.

Do you actually have an answer?

 

[excelsiorlef]

It's a question that's occurred to me awhile ago.

Do you actually have an answer?

Seriously this has to be round 3 or 4 of this same discourse

 

[igordennis]

Seriously this has to be round 3 or 4 of this same discourse

Which is why my interest in reading this thread gradually diminished. So much circular arguments its tiring.

 

[Snake]

Reading rumours that Hayden Christensen might come back in ep 8? Please no...just....no!

No matter if it's 5 seconds or 10, that'll be 5 or 10 seconds too many, a BAD idea.

No worries. There is no credible reason to believe it's in the works.

Every "rumor" currently in existence about Episode VIII is either clickbait based on ideas that were brought up early in TFA's development and discarded, or just 100% made-up fan theories.

 

[Brakke]

Because double standards are a poor argument and imply that TFA is less coherent than the other movies when it's not. I use the OT as a point of reference, but you could break most movies apart with this level of scrutiny. Mad Max Fury Road would be considered a disasterous failure if we didn't infer things about the characters from the use of visual langauage and subtle cues the movie offers us.

I literally on this page took a look at a subtle cue: we witness other people in this movie doing basically all the things we were impressed by Luke for doing. Rey can mind-trick, Poe can kill Death Stars, Han can attempt to turn Dark dudes back to the Light. So that's a worthwhile question to me: why do we even need Luke at all? Given his performance with Kylo, we should be suspicious of his ability to be a mentor to Rey. So he's in a weird spot, and I think that's interesting.

And hey: maybe most movies break apart under this much scrutiny? Maybe that's just true. Where's the problem with that?

What I'm calling out here is poor argumentative form. [...] I discourage poor arguments where I can.

But this is nonsense. My core position is not "the OT is great and TFA is not". You setting up a standard against double-standards is "poor argumentative form". Whether or not you think my scrutiny is applied evenly doesn't actually answer any of my scrutiny.

That stuff is harder to spot when it comes to movies that have legitimate issues, which is all the more reason to be as fair as possible

This movie doesn't have legitimate issues? None at all?

You're not producing interesting discussion when you're trying to quibble about minute and irrelevant issues anyone can resolve with minimal inferential reasoning.

You're not producing interesting discussing when you're calling me a bastard either but here we are.

It's a question that's occurred to me awhile ago.

Do you actually have an answer?

It's literally the next sentence in that post you excerpted.

Which is why my interest in reading this thread gradually diminished. So much circular arguments its tiring.

It's true, it's probably run its course.