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[Chuckie]

Sorry, about that, I know you were joking, I was throwing out a general question. I mean Plagueis was pretty much pre-Empire and all that.

Yeah true.

I guess it is the 'ancient evil' thing and the immortality+Plagueis that made some people think it could be him.

I'd rather have it be Plagueis than Sidious though. That would really be weaksauce

 

[Arthea]

Immortal Force user is overkill, why even try? We already have a winner.

 

[Madness]

Having now seen the movie 3 times, I definitely think it needed more 'time'. The pacing of the story feels too coincidental for my taste. It suffers from the same issue Revenge of the Sith suffered from, where it's all just one flat sprint without breaks, everything happens after the other. For Finn and Rey, their relationship and storyline is flat out always in motion. From Finn's crash to escaping with Rey on the Falcon, to being picked up by Han, to getting to Maz's planet, to fighting the First Order, and then a few hours later going to rescue her etc. It's just all a few hours and yet they act like they've been friends all their lives. Some additional scenes actually building up their friendship, their relationship with Han was needed. Also, Leia never meets Rey once, doesn't know her, but at the end is hugging her after they return, and not Chewbacca, Hans almost brother and someone she's known for well over 30+ years at that point. Just minor nitpicks.

Edit: Also, if you see Rey's skills with her staff, and then also the fact that Kylo takes a massive blaster shot into the side of his chest, it's obvious to see why the fight ended that way. He had to punch his chest oozing blood just to keep fighting.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Having now seen the movie 3 times, I definitely think it needed more 'time'. The pacing of the story feels too coincidental for my taste. It suffers from the same issue Revenge of the Sith suffered from, where it's all just one flat sprint without breaks, everything happens after the other. For Finn and Rey, their relationship and storyline is flat out always in motion. From Finn's crash to escaping with Rey on the Falcon, to being picked up by Han, to getting to Maz's planet, to fighting the First Order, and then a few hours later going to rescue her etc. It's just all a few hours and yet they act like they've been friends all their lives. Some additional scenes actually building up their friendship, their relationship with Han was needed. Also, Leia never meets Rey once, doesn't know her, but at the end is hugging her after they return, and not Chewbacca, Hans almost brother and someone she's known for well over 30+ years at that point. Just minor nitpicks.

Chewbacca walks past her not the other way around and he just shot her son who just killed his best friend and he was carrying Finn's body and was seemingly going to check on him. Also does Chewie strike you as the hug it out when sad/angry type?

Also Leia uses the force, Rey is connected, the force connects them.

Both Rey and Finn have had no one in their lives, and now they're thrust into an adventure, it's no surprise they connect so fast, people hit it off like that all the time. Both of my closest friends happened like that.

 

[Timbuktu]

Seen it for the third time, now in laser IMAX 3D. Holy shit brehs, this was good. Aside from the standard IMAX praise, I noticed smaller details like sand brushing off vehicle debris on Jakku and the other ships stationed at Starkiller base. I'm definitely going to be watching the next one in the same format if they choose to do so, it's just phenomenal. My feelings on the film itself are the same, and I really do hope Rian Johnson picks up the ball on filming the actors/actresses in a way they can actually act beyond facial expressions and their delivery of dialogue. Too much of the film was two people standing and talking, switching to and fro.

Is Laser IMAX better than 70mm IMAX? There are several options in London and I'm going to the BFI IMAX theatre tomorrow, but there is Empire in Leicester Sq that shows laser.

 

[A Serious Man]

I guess I'm the only person who never applied hard rules to what the Force can do and how quickly a person can wield it. After the Mortis and Yoda arcs in TCW it was pretty clear to me that there were fantastical dimensions to the Force and anything was possible. Yoda was a know-it-all supreme grand wizard and even he didn't find out about force ghost immortality until late in the game. I'm sure there are more aspects of the force we don't know about hidden away in the dark corners of the galaxy and exploring those corners is part of the fun of the series. Kylo stopping laser bolts or Rey being naturally attuned to the Force are part of that. People becoming upset because TFA violated the arbitrary rules for space magic they created in their own heads doesn't seem like valid criticism to me.

 

[Dagobert Duck]

Me:

The second Han saw Ben I knew it was goign to happen...my eyes were watering and I thought, thats it...he is going to die...the cinema was silent and the second he killed him I couldnt hold it, I cried and the guy next to me too...seeing Chewie going crazy shooting at who was like a child for him too I guess jsut was over the top. An intense scene to witness...and I was prepared that Han might die...

 

[Vagabundo]

I was replying to the argument that "the force went from something that required diligent training to even use", which is just patently not true.

This is a farmer who has never used a sword before, about one minute after having blinders put on him, using the Force for the first time, shortly after learning of its existence for the first time, after just a couple sentences from Obi-wan:

Luke also had zero subsequent training before his "use the Force" moment at the end of ANH. Luke comes out pretty strong right out the gates, no "diligent training" before he could do so. It came from instinct.

Luke does maybe two things worthy of the Force, and one of those in a non stressful situation in the six days covered in ANH. Rey is way way better far sooner ( two days?) than Luke without any guidance whatsoever (maybe Maz?).

By the end of the film she'd give ESB Luke a good run for his money. She can do Force pulls, mind tricks, mind reading, using the force when piloting the Falcon, and use a light sabre in combat against a trained foe, (probably more if she sees someone doing the power once). She is obviously some sort of Savant, instantly picking up force related stuff and using it intuitively.

She doesn't have Lukes character flaws which were holding him back, his lack of belief in himself, lack of persistence, etc. She is very self assured and this obviously helps with learning the powers.

Two major complaints I've heard when taking to people are Rey picking up the powers too quickly and the plot being too similar to ANH. So the film didn't convince people enough.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Luke does maybe two things worthy of the Force, and one of those in a non stressful situation in the six days covered in ANH. Rey is way way better far sooner ( two days?) than Luke without any guidance whatsoever (maybe Maz?).

By the end of the film she'd give ESB Luke a good run for his money. She can do Force pulls, mind tricks, mind reading, using the force when piloting the Falcon, and use a light sabre in combat against a trained foe, (probably more if she sees someone doing the power once). She is obviously some sort of Savant, instantly picking up force related stuff and using it intuitively.

She doesn't have Lukes character flaws which were holding him back, his lack of belief in himself, lack of persistence, etc. She is very self assured and this obviously helps with learning the powers.

Two major complaints I've heard when taking to people are Rey picking up the powers too quickly and the plot being too similar to ANH. So the film didn't convince people enough.

She also had a much more severe upbringing which predisposes her to being say a bettr fighter than Luke would be early on. It's all there in the movie, her fighting style is the same in both the Jakku fight and the Ren Duel.

She also expresses astonishment at all times at what she is doing, it's heavily hinted the force is working through her almost sometimes without her knowing, almost like it's had an awakening or something....

 

[Vice]

After thinking about it for awhile, I feel that Rey fills in the Han Solo role rather than the Luke role in TFA, if we compare them to characters in ANH. Aside from force sensitivity, Finn mirrors Luke story much more than Rey does.

 

[Vagabundo]

She also had a much more severe upbringing which predisposes her to being say a bettr fighter than Luke would be early on. It's all there in the movie, her fighting style is the same in both the Jakku fight and the Ren Duel.

She also expresses astonishment at all times at what she is doing, it's heavily hinted the force is working through her almost sometimes without her knowing, almost like it's had an awakening or something....

She definite is far more proficient at fighting at the beginning compared to Luke.

The awakening of the Force; my understanding is that the Force is a neutral medium though which anyone can access "luck" as obi-wan called it, and with training, force powers.

If the Force is working through Rey for some greater purpose I'm not sure if that was shown very well, her surprise was mild, then again she didn't have much time to reflect due to the turbocharged pacing of the film.

 

[LosDaddie]

The fact that JJ and Lawrence were able to preemptively parody fans like you in the film itself is beyond incredible. Every day that passes since I've seen it, I've become more impressed with the script.



Yeah, but, see Rey has a vagina, so this shit should be taking her approximately 50% longer than Luke, not 90% less.

Because it's always easier to just dismiss someone as sexist on GAF than actually engage in conversation.

 

[Fencedude]

Because it's always easier to just dismiss someone as sexist on GAF than actually engage in conversation.

Just as productive as parachuting into the thread and starting the same goddamn argument that has been done a dozen times already.

 

[LosDaddie]

Just as productive as parachuting into the thread and starting the same goddamn argument that has been done a dozen times already.

This is the 3rd spoiled thread for TFA. The third...in less than a month of the movie releasing.

Arguments circling back are the norm in this situation.

 

[Ristlager]

My biggest issue with the whole Ray beating Kylo is that, even though he was hurt from the blaster, is that Kylo was reduced to a non powerful/treathning villain for me. He is no longer a threat in my head. I don't care that he is going to "finish" his training. If 15-20 years under Snokes wings, isn't enough to beat a zero day trained Ray, then what does he stand against a 2 year trained Ray or even worse against Luke?

He should have said "enough" when Ray started to get the upper hand in the fight and thrown her with force push over the canyon, just to confirm that he really is a bad mother f...er.

 

[Arthea]

My biggest issue with the whole Ray beating Kylo is that, even though he was hurt from the blaster, is that Kylo was reduced to a non powerful/treathning villain for me. He is no longer a threat in my head. I don't care that he is going to "finish" his training. If 15-20 years under Snokes wings, isn't enough to beat a zero day trained Ray, then what does he stand against a 2 year trained Ray or even worse against Luke?

He should have said "enough" when Ray started to get the upper hand in the fight and thrown her with force push over the canyon, just to confirm that he really is a bad mother f...er.

There are two problems with your post:
1. That's not how the Force works, it's not about training, well, it kinda is, but if you can let go of your perceptions and rely on it, you don't need any training, training is actually for doing that, relying on the force, letting go, not that you can't use the Force without any training. It's more of accepting, than training. That and the Force being strong in the person.
2. I'm not sure why do you think that Kylo is supposed to be super villain. In the movie he's a whiny brat with temper. Can he become a super villain? Only time will show, he took steps to achieve that and he wants it, as we know.

 

[Fencedude]

just to confirm that he really is a bad mother f...er.

Yes, because clearly the most interesting thing a villain can do is be a "bad motherfucker"

Because that is definitely the only thing we want from villains. Hell, why even have heroes? Lets just have the villain going around slaughtering people in "awesome" ways. Since thats the only way we can possibly respect them.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

My biggest issue with the whole Ray beating Kylo is that, even though he was hurt from the blaster, is that Kylo was reduced to a non powerful/treathning villain for me. He is no longer a threat in my head. I don't care that he is going to "finish" his training. If 15-20 years under Snokes wings, isn't enough to beat a zero day trained Ray, then what does he stand against a 2 year trained Ray or even worse against Luke?

He should have said "enough" when Ray started to get the upper hand in the fight and thrown her with force push over the canyon, just to confirm that he really is a bad mother f...er.

The fact he'd just killed his father had an impact as well. An unexpected one at that. There's also no evidence Kylo's been taught by Snoke for that length of time. Pablo Hidalgo's confirmed that the attack on Luke's trainees happened more recently than fifteen years ago.

 

[Ristlager]

I want the villain to be a threat, if he is not a threat the hero has nothing to do. Look at Kilgrave in Jessica Jones. They manage to humanise him, but he is always an incredible powerful opponent for JJ.

 

[Vagabundo]

I want the villain to be a threat, if he is not a threat the hero has nothing to do. Look at Kilgrave in Jessica Jones. They manage to humanise him, but he is always an incredible powerful opponent for JJ.

He also does the spoilt child in a far far better way.

 

[Arthea]

I want the villain to be a threat, if he is not a threat the hero has nothing to do. Look at Kilgrave in Jessica Jones. They manage to humanise him, but he is always an incredible powerful opponent for JJ.

he is not a threat?

you would go to have a chat with him?

 

[Ristlager]

The fact he'd just killed his father had an impact as well. An unexpected one at that. There's also no evidence Kylo's been taught by Snoke for that length of time. Pablo Hidalgo's confirmed that the attack on Luke's trainees happened more recently than fifteen years ago.

Killing his father should make him more powerful, as it made his "light" go away, and become closer to the dark side. There was no remorse when he killed him. That is just a theory we put on him to make him weaker. When Anakin killed all the children, he grew in strength, and no matter how hard it is to kill your father, killing a dozen children should be far more traumatic.

 

[Travo]

I want the villain to be a threat, if he is not a threat the hero has nothing to do. Look at Kilgrave in Jessica Jones. They manage to humanise him, but he is always an incredible powerful opponent for JJ.

im pretty sure Epusode eight is the moment where the villains come back with a vengeance.

 

[Arthea]

I like how killing own father, sending another guy to coma, almost killing him and fighting with a Force user after, dominating most of the fight makes one not a threat these days.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

I want the villain to be a threat, if he is not a threat the hero has nothing to do. Look at Kilgrave in Jessica Jones. They manage to humanise him, but he is always an incredible powerful opponent for JJ.

People with this mentality should rewatch the movie and make a list of the shit Kylo does throughout. Seriously, do that, and then come back to me and say that Kylo is not threatening when he lost a single fight heavily injured to a capable-fighter force prodigy.

 

[Messypandas]

I was replying to the argument that "the force went from something that required diligent training to even use", which is just patently not true.

This is a farmer who has never used a sword before, about one minute after having blinders put on him, using the Force for the first time, shortly after learning of its existence for the first time, after just a couple sentences from Obi-wan:

Luke also had zero subsequent training before his "use the Force" moment at the end of ANH. Luke comes out pretty strong right out the gates, no "diligent training" before he could do so. It came from instinct.

Luke also had 2 movies worth of training from 2 legendary jedi masters and still got royally beaten the fuck up by Vader.

 

[It's Reyn Time!]

As I said in another thread, Kylo was severely wounded, not actively trying to kill Rey and is cocky, arrogant, unfocused and has a wild, unrefined fighting style. Can you really not wrap your heads around the idea that someone with proficiency with a close combat weapon, the element of surprise on her side, help from the Force by way of precognition, increased strength, agility and reaction speed, could possibly get the advantage over him at that moment? This is a genuine question I am asking you guys. Is that something you can't possibly imagine?

Killing his father should make him more powerful, as it made his "light" go away, and become closer to the dark side. There was no remorse when he killed him. That is just a theory we put on him to make him weaker. When Anakin killed all the children, he grew in strength, and no matter how hard it is to kill your father, killing a dozen children should be far more traumatic.

See thread title.

 

[FeD.nL]

I like how killing own father, sending another guy to coma, almost killing him and fighting with a Force user after, dominating most of the fight makes one not a threat these days.

Kylo Ren is the character that I'm absolutely the most interested in. Driver nailed the character as far as I'm concerned. He's so raw and unpredictable because of his anger issues that I really cannot wait where he's going to end up during this trilogy.

And yes the guy is an absolute threat because of this. He took a fucking bowcaster shot to the stomach and still managed to be the dominant fighter in most of the battle with Rey, who shows herself quite capable while dealing with Unkar's thugs.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Killing his father should make him more powerful, as it made his "light" go away, and become closer to the dark side. There was no remorse when he killed him. That is just a theory we put on him to make him weaker. When Anakin killed all the children, he grew in strength, and no matter how hard it is to kill your father, killing a dozen children should be far more traumatic.

How do you know slaughtering the children made Anakin more powerful or that it did the same with Kylo? You're implying the dark side's stronger when the films suggest the opposite.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

Luke also had 2 movies worth of training from 2 legendary jedi masters and still got royally beaten the fuck up by Vader.

Vader is a seasoned veteran of the dark side while Kylo is a baby. And Vader was trained by a legendary jedi and the emperor, getting the best of both worlds.

This is turning into DBZ power levels.

 

[FeD.nL]

Killing his father should make him more powerful, as it made his "light" go away, and become closer to the dark side. There was no remorse when he killed him. That is just a theory we put on him to make him weaker. When Anakin killed all the children, he grew in strength, and no matter how hard it is to kill your father, killing a dozen children should be far more traumatic.

From the novelization:

Stunned by his own actions, Kyo Ren fell to his knees. Following through on the act ought to have made him stronger, a part of him believed. Instead, he found himself weakend. He did not hear the roar of the enraged Wookiee above, but he did feel the sting of the shot from the bowcaster as it slammed into his side, knocking him back on the walkway.
<snip>
Amid the rising bedlam and confusion, Kylo Ren struggled to stand. As he did, so his gaze turned upward.

There it is absolutely made clear Killing Han weakened him.

 

[Arthea]

tbh Luke had close to no training either, and he had problem concentrating even when he could have had some training.

 

[LosDaddie]

My biggest issue with the whole Ray beating Kylo is that, even though he was hurt from the blaster, is that Kylo was reduced to a non powerful/treathning villain for me. He is no longer a threat in my head. I don't care that he is going to "finish" his training. If 15-20 years under Snokes wings, isn't enough to beat a zero day trained Ray, then what does he stand against a 2 year trained Ray or even worse against Luke?

He should have said "enough" when Ray started to get the upper hand in the fight and thrown her with force push over the canyon, just to confirm that he really is a bad mother f...er.

Like I said in my post a couple pages back, people need to realize Rey is the Anakin of this trilogy. As such, everything comes naturally to her. There's little-to-no struggle in anything she wants to accomplish in TFA. Rey is a skilled mechanic, a gifted pilot, and even a savant using the Force. She's essentially perfect in the movie, other than not accepting that her family isn't coming back for her (if such can be considered a flaw).

So of course, Rey would defeat a clearly hobbled Kylo at the end. The whole movie led up to that point.

 

[Messypandas]

Vader is a seasoned veteran of the dark side while Kylo is a baby. And Vader was trained by a legendary jedi and the emperor, getting the best of both worlds.

This is turning into DBZ power levels.

Yeah i don't mind Rey coming up with a few pwning moves out the gate, it made for a good fight. Although i'm curious how the showdown is built up in VIII.

Only thing that's tiring is people who criticise Rey in this thread getting accused of hating vaginas or some juvenile shit. Can we not do that people?

 

[Zabka]

Killing his father should make him more powerful, as it made his "light" go away, and become closer to the dark side. There was no remorse when he killed him. That is just a theory we put on him to make him weaker. When Anakin killed all the children, he grew in strength, and no matter how hard it is to kill your father, killing a dozen children should be far more traumatic.

If Anakin grew in strength why did Obi-wan kick his space Jesus ass?

 

[Fencedude]

Killing his father should make him more powerful, as it made his "light" go away, and become closer to the dark side. There was no remorse when he killed him. That is just a theory we put on him to make him weaker. When Anakin killed all the children, he grew in strength, and no matter how hard it is to kill your father, killing a dozen children should be far more traumatic.

>no remorse

Did you even watch this movie.

 

[It's Reyn Time!]

Yeah i don't mind Rey coming up with a few pwning moves out the gate, it made for a good fight. Although i'm curious how the showdown is built up in VIII.

Only thing that's tiring is people who criticise Rey in this thread getting accused of hating vaginas or some juvenile shit. Can we not do that people?

To be fair, the stench of MRA is all over some of the more vocal detractors.

 

[Exotoro]

Kylo practically prays to Vader's mask and you people think he's just as or more skilled than him? Ya'll were in for a rude awakening.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

>no remorse

Did you even watch this movie.

His entire dialogue with Han was a misdirection. He was asking him to "help him" not because he was being brought back toward the light, but because he wanted him to accept the fact that he had fully turned bad. At the very least, it was just there to surprise the audience when the red ligthsaber turns on through Han's belly. That's definitely the way I saw it on a second viewing. I don't think he was remorseful or conflicted in his decision at all. I don't really buy into the idea that Kylo was weakened in the fight because of his emotional state. I don't care what the novel says, I watched the movie and that's it.

He's definitely not yet, I don't see anyone saying he is. But he can already use the Force in ways Vader never could.

Well, I have seen people describe Kylo as "Vader but a bitch," which basically implies to me they were expecting him to be Vader 2.0.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Kylo practically prays to Vader's mask and you people think he's just as or more skilled than him? Ya'll were in for a rude awakening.

He's definitely not yet, I don't see anyone saying he is. But he can already use the Force in ways Vader never could.

 

[Messypandas]

VIII is going to be exclusively training montages for both apprentices.

 

[Ristlager]

>no remorse

Did you even watch this movie.

Maybe my memory is a bit wrong, but from what I remember, It looked like there was no hard feelings after he killed him, he looked satisfied. It felt like he was tricking Solo with his speech before he killed him.

 

[Ristlager]

His entire dialogue with Han was a misdirection. He was asking him to "help him" not because he was being brought back toward the light, but because he wanted him to accept the fact that he had fully turned bad. At the very least, it was just there to surprise the audience when the red ligthsaber turns on through Han's belly. That's definitely the way I saw it on a second viewing. I don't think he was remorseful or conflicted in his decision at all. I don't really buy into the idea that Kylo was weakened in the fight because of his emotional state. I don't care what the novel says, I watched the movie and that's it.



Well, I have seen people describe Kylo as "Vader but a bitch," which basically implies to me they were expecting him to be Vader 2.0.

You got the same view as me on this.

 

[Travo]

VIII is going to be exclusively training montages for both apprentices.

Yep, Kylo will be flipping in the swamp with a two feet tall Snoke attached to his shoulders.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Well, I have seen people describe Kylo as "Vader but a bitch," which basically implies to me they were expecting him to be Vader 2.0.

Yeah, I don't understand why anyone wanted this. Vader's the iconic villain of the saga. Just copy him exactly and it wouldn't work. JJ and Kasdan made the right choice by doing something different.

 

[FeD.nL]

His entire dialogue with Han was a misdirection. He was asking him to "help him" not because he was being brought back toward the light, but because he wanted him to accept the fact that he had fully turned bad. At the very least, it was just there to surprise the audience when the red ligthsaber turns on through Han's belly. That's definitely the way I saw it on a second viewing. I don't think he was remorseful or conflicted in his decision at all. I don't really buy into the idea that Kylo was weakened in the fight because of his emotional state. I don't care what the novel says, I watched the movie and that's it.

Except in the film it also made clear he was very emotional because of killing his father. Especially when he shouts 'traitor!!' to Finn. Here at the end he's facing the trooper that said no to the dark, and his emotions get the better of him.

 

[Arthea]

I don't think we are getting Vader 2.0, especially if it's true that there are no Sith anymore, it has to be different this time, or what's the point?

 

[Trigonometrize.]

Except in the film it also made clear he was very emotional because of killing his father. Especially when he shouts 'traitor!!' to Finn. Here at the end he's facing the trooper that said no to the dark, and his emotions get the better of him.

Well, Kylo's emotional in general. The traitor thing was built up the entire movie and could be completely unrelated to killing his father.

Yeah, I don't understand why anyone wanted this. Vader's the iconic villain of the saga. Just copy him exactly and it wouldn't work. JJ and Kasdan made the right choice by doing something different.

But of course, TFA still ends up being called a rehash of ANH anyway. Can't catch a break those two.

 

[Messypandas]

When he runs out to confront Finn and Rey, he's in his sweaty rage mode (most likely due to the blaster pain). He refers to "Han Solo isn't here to save you now" which is him back to referring to Han as someone unrelated to him. I don't think its fair to say in the last scene he's remorseful about doing it.

 

[Fencedude]

His entire dialogue with Han was a misdirection. He was asking him to "help him" not because he was being brought back toward the light, but because he wanted him to accept the fact that he had fully turned bad. At the very least, it was just there to surprise the audience when the red ligthsaber turns on through Han's belly. That's definitely the way I saw it on a second viewing. I don't think he was remorseful or conflicted in his decision at all. I don't really buy into the idea that Kylo was weakened in the fight because of his emotional state. I don't care what the novel says, I watched the movie and that's it.

He was obviously weakened. He did not get what he expected from that at all. You can actually see it on his face.

The novelization just demonstrates that that interpretation is correct (and I'll bet the shooting scrip will also back this up)