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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

He was obviously weakened. He did not get what he expected from that at all. You can actually see it on his face.

The novelization just demonstrates that that interpretation is correct (and I'll bet the shooting scrip will also back this up)

The novel, and even the script itself, I don't really care about. It sounds dense of me, but if it's not on display in the movie I'm not buying into it. Just kind of a principle of storytelling that I like to adhere to. I never really saw anything on his face that indicated he was remorseful, only that the high energy blast that went directly into his side hurts like a bitch.
 

FeD.nL

Member
Well, Kylo's emotional in general. The traitor thing was built up the entire movie and could be completely unrelated to killing his father.

Sure, except for the fact that in every fight before the finale he's portrayed as cold and focussed. First with Lor San Tekka, and with Rey in the forest. It's even made more clear that killing Han affected him when you compare him doing a complete 180 after killing San Tekka and stopping a bolt mid air, yet when he kills Han the bowcaster shot hits him while he's facing the direction of the shot.
 
Vader is a seasoned veteran of the dark side while Kylo is a baby. And Vader was trained by a legendary jedi and the emperor, getting the best of both worlds.

This is turning into DBZ power levels.


Here's the other part to consider. We are first introduced to Vader 20 years after RotS. Dude is a bottle of rage, the guy is force choking to death ALL bad news off the rip. We never saw Vader between RotS and ANH. You don't know how angry and violent he was. I see Kylo as what Vader probably acted like during the first 5 years of his existence.
 

Fencedude

Member
The novel, and even the script itself, I don't really care about. It sounds dense of me, but if it's not on display in the movie I'm not buying into it. I never really saw anything on his face that indicated he was remorseful, only that the high energy blast that went directly into his side hurts like a bitch.

I thought it was completely obvious through Driver's performance. The fact that the novelization outright states it is basically icing.
 

Arthea

Member
When he runs out to confront Finn and Rey, he's in his sweaty rage mode (most likely due to the blaster pain). He refers to "Han Solo isn't here to save you now" which is him back to referring to Han as someone unrelated to him. I don't think its fair to say in the last scene he's remorseful about doing it.

It's open to interpretation, Leia says that he still has light in him, if he has still some left after killing Solo (what would be very unlikely), yes, he feels remorse, if not anymore - he probably doesn't.
It kinda seems from the movie that he does, mostly a facial expression does that, but it is hard to say, we'll have to wait to know for sure.


I thought it was completely obvious through Driver's performance. The fact that the novelization outright states it is basically icing.

no, I wouldn't say it's obvious from Driver's performance but if it is known fact, then yeah, there is nothing to argue about.
 

Aiii

So not worth it
Sure, except for the fact that in every fight before the finale he's portrayed as cold and focussed.

Except that he's emotional, gets angry a lot, trashes rooms like he's a little kid being told to get ready for bed and throwing a temper tantrum and even literally mentions how he feels the light side pulling at him and wavering his resolve.

Words I wouldn't use when describe when describing Kylo Ren:
1. Calculating.
2. Cold.
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
Yes, because clearly the most interesting thing a villain can do is be a "bad motherfucker"

Because that is definitely the only thing we want from villains. Hell, why even have heroes? Lets just have the villain going around slaughtering people in "awesome" ways. Since thats the only way we can possibly respect them.

I mean the key to Star Wars is to have an endless stream of preternatural badasses for villains...

cbb324ec-123c-4333-83ec-32e0262434b5.gif



....oh
 
It's open to interpretation, Leia says that he still has light in him, if he has still some left after killing Solo (what would be very unlikely), yes, he feels remorse, if not anymore - he probably doesn't.
It kinda seems from the movie that he does, mostly a facial expression does that, but it is hard to say, we'll have to wait to know for sure.

I prefer to think not, I like the idea he's kinda 2 people inside constantly at war. Throughout the movie, he referes to Han Solo like some foreign entity. Thats Snokes apprentice talking. When Han comes close to him, he's crumbling inside, his light side is trying to resurface and he's Ben again. When he's outside and shouting "Han isn't here" Ben is dead, he's completely accepted himself as Snokes apprentice.
 

Arthea

Member
I mean the key to Star Wars is to have an endless stream of preternatural badasses for villains...

https://cdn.playbuzz.com/cdn/76fc8bde-6137-4760-82a0-b442f7b4198b/cbb324ec-123c-4333-83ec-32e0262434b5.gif[/IMG


....oh[/QUOTE]
I loathe this thing so much
who ever thought it's a good idea?


[quote="Trigonometrize., post: 191593262"]This gif reminds me of how[B] I loved Grievous[/B] as a kid and was really excited to play as him in Battlefront II. Oh how times have changed for me.[/QUOTE]

now, I've truly seen everything in this thread (3 threads, to be exact)
 

FeD.nL

Member
Except that he's emotional, gets angry a lot, trashes rooms like he's a little kid being told to get ready for bed and throwing a temper tantrum and even literally mentions how he feels the light side pulling at him and wavering his resolve.

Words I wouldn't use when describe when describing Kylo Ren:
1. Calculating.
2. Cold.

Sure, but he's not portrayed that way in battle where he's very focussed and cold. It only changes after he killed Han.

And as I said you see killing Han affecting him because he didn't even manage to stop a bolt while it was fired right at him. A complete change from the beginning of the film where he kills San Tekka and manages to stop a bolt mid-air from a side he could not see.
 

Alx

Member
As silly as Grievous looks, I like the reasoning leading to his character. In a universe with multiple races of aliens, droids, prosthetic limbs etc, it wouldn't be logical to have people only use sabers like humans do.
I guess Jedis remote-controlling sabers with the Force will look stupid too, but it's still a relevant question to have : why don't they do it ?
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
As silly as Grievous looks, I like the reasoning leading to his character. In a universe with multiple races of aliens, droids, prosthetic limbs etc, it wouldn't be logical to have people only use sabers like humans do.
I guess Jedis remote-controlling sabers with the Force will look stupid too, but it's still a relevant question to have : why don't they do it ?

Grevious was rad in the Tartakovsky cartoon. He slaughters fools in an instant. In the movie though? He's a hollow 'nothing' of a threat. A big dumb cg thing with no explanation or purpose.
 

Altairre

Member
Sure, but he's not portrayed that way in battle where he's very focussed and cold. It only changes after he killed Han.

And as I said you see killing Han affecting him because he didn't even manage to stop a bolt while it was fired right at him. A complete change from the beginning of the film where he kills San Tekka and manages to stop a bolt mid-air from a side he could not see.

Well he wants to be cold and calculating but it's clear that he lacks the necessary control. It is no wonder that he has trouble dealing with the situation at the end when shit really hits the fan. He wasn't really tested before that. Obviously, killing Han is an emotional moment but I don't buy that he is remorseful at all, not with the way the scene went.
 

witness

Member
tumblr_n2ptm9AxDH1rawb5do1_400.gif


Thanks George for this :(

I hate youuuuuuuuu

I just remember people going fucking bananas in the theater at my midnight showing during that sequence. At the time people ate that shit up. People were freaking out about how awesome Yoda was as we were let out of the theater, I'll never forget how excited seemingly everyone was.
 

Chuckie

Member
I just remember people going fucking bananas in the theater at my midnight showing during that sequence. At the time people ate that shit up. People were freaking out about how awesome Yoda was as we were let out of the theater, I'll never forget how excited seemingly everyone was.

Not the theater I went too. No doubt some loved it... but mostly I heard sounds like gmprfhh which was a mix of annoyance and laughter.
 
I just remember people going fucking bananas in the theater at my midnight showing during that sequence. At the time people ate that shit up. People were freaking out about how awesome Yoda was as we were let out of the theater, I'll never forget how excited seemingly everyone was.

Yeah, at least we can have one positive feeling towards AOTC, even if it is but a memory for many of us now. AOTC is the first Star Wars movie I have a memory of watching for the first time and this scene sticks out in it, for better or for worse.
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
I just remember people going fucking bananas in the theater at my midnight showing during that sequence. At the time people ate that shit up. People were freaking out about how awesome Yoda was as we were let out of the theater, I'll never forget how excited seemingly everyone was.

Yeah, I was in a fucking Star Wars fan club, we all saw it opening day. I felt like the only one who walked away going "WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT?!"
 

enigmatic_alex44

Whenever a game uses "middleware," I expect mediocrity. Just see how poor TLOU looks.
Loved Yoda in the prequels. They actually showed what a badass the little guy was, because in ESB and ROTJ he just comes across as this crazy kook that Luke has to trust for whatever reason.

Yoda goes toe to toe against Palpatine and walks away unharmed. Their fight is one of the highlights of the series. Hopefully Yoda shows up as a Force Ghost in Episode VIII.
 
I just remember people going fucking bananas in the theater at my midnight showing during that sequence. At the time people ate that shit up. People were freaking out about how awesome Yoda was as we were let out of the theater, I'll never forget how excited seemingly everyone was.

I was like 12 back then and fucking loved that shit
Now it looks like garbage lol
 
Loved Yoda in the prequels. They actually showed what a badass the little guy was, because in ESB and ROTJ he just comes across as this crazy kook that Luke has to trust for whatever reason.

Yoda goes toe to toe against Palpatine and walks away unharmed. Their fight is one of the highlights of the series. Hopefully Yoda shows up as a Force Ghost in Episode VIII.
My biggest problem with Yoda-Paplatine is that Yoda gives up for no reason.
 

Vyer

Member
Yoda/Palpatine is such a dumb and ridiculous looking fight.

The novel, and even the script itself, I don't really care about. It sounds dense of me, but if it's not on display in the movie I'm not buying into it. Just kind of a principle of storytelling that I like to adhere to. I never really saw anything on his face that indicated he was remorseful, only that the high energy blast that went directly into his side hurts like a bitch.


I think by the time Han disappears and he gets shot/sees Rey and crew is a lot less about remorse, sure. I think that's part of his character arc, and what he's going to become.

But as far as remorse goes, there are two other scenes that flat out tell the viewer that he's struggling with the 'pull of the Light', including one where it's just him and Vader's helmet (and whoever/whatever is his 'grandfather' telling him about the power of the Dark). There's plenty of reason to believe that struggle is there on the bridge, but ultimately he makes the decision that he believes Vader never could.
 

D6AMIA6N

Member
Why would Yoda need a lighsaber when he has mastered the force, the ultimate weapon? PT kinda ruined the force (among everything else) by showing that as the final way to end a duel, he needed to have a sword fight? Waaaaat? Dooku was just as powerful as Sidious?! George pls stahp
 
Killing his father should make him more powerful, as it made his "light" go away, and become closer to the dark side. There was no remorse when he killed him. That is just a theory we put on him to make him weaker.

Agree. I think the greatest thing holding back Ren in the fight was definitely the blast in the gut. We have absolutely zero frame of reference for his relationship with Han, other than it's quite obvious that he loathes him and disowned him.

He's definitely not yet, I don't see anyone saying he is. But he can already use the Force in ways Vader never could.

Force powers are being made up as time goes along. If Anakin/Vader was supposed to be force Jesus, I highly doubt stopping a pistol blast falls outside his capabilities. It's more a case that such a power hadn't been thought up at the time. That's the only power Ren demonstrated that we hadn't seen from Vader. Clearly he was capable of reading minds seeing as he sensed Luke thinking about Leia during the ROTJ duel.
 
Yoda-Palpatine is one of the worst fights in the series lol, fucking throwing Senate seats back and forth. They somehow made the battle between two of the most legendary force users a total snoozefest.
 

Vagabundo

Member
Yoda and Grievous were great in prequels, you people are crazy.

We had a Ewok Jedi in my RPG group and she used the same Lightsaber forms that Yoda used. It's a form that emphases dexterity and acrobatics. She was awesome.
 

Travo

Member
Yoda-Palpatine is one of the worst fights in the series lol, fucking throwing Senate seats back and forth. They somehow made the battle between two of the most legendary force users a total snoozefest.

I enjoyed that. I would've probably preferred more force usage rather than light sabers from those two.
 
I just remember people going fucking bananas in the theater at my midnight showing during that sequence. At the time people ate that shit up. People were freaking out about how awesome Yoda was as we were let out of the theater, I'll never forget how excited seemingly everyone was.

Opposite for me. Theatre was silent and my friend and I were laughing our asses off.
 

enigmatic_alex44

Whenever a game uses "middleware," I expect mediocrity. Just see how poor TLOU looks.
Yoda and Grievous were great in prequels, you people are crazy.

Let 'em know.

Grievous was amazing. The battle between him and Obi-Wan was such a highlight. The way the fight starts with Grievous pulling out FOUR lightsabers and twirling them as they scrape the ground like heat death....iconic.

Yet another reason Revenge of the Sith is still the best Star Wars film.
 
Agree. I think the greatest thing holding back Ren in the fight was definitely the blast in the gut. We have absolutely zero frame of reference for his relationship with Han, other than it's quite obvious that he loathes him and disowned him.



Force powers are being made up as time goes along. If Anakin/Vader was supposed to be force Jesus, I highly doubt stopping a pistol blast falls outside his capabilities. It's more a case that such a power hadn't been thought up at the time. That's the only power Ren demonstrated that we hadn't seen from Vader. Clearly he was capable of reading minds seeing as he sensed Luke thinking about Leia during the ROTJ duel.
He had a connection with Luke though. Same with Luke and Leia. Vader had to use an interrogation droid on Leia, Kylo pulled it right out of Poe. But yeah, obviously they need to introduce new powers to ensure we stay interested in the Force.
 
Let 'em know.

Grievous was amazing. The battle between him and Obi-Wan was such a highlight. The way the fight starts with Grievous pulling out FOUR lightsabers and twirling them as they scrape the ground like heat death....iconic.

I wanna see George pitch that scene to the animators. Like General Grevious is gonna get in a giant wheel that can hop around and Obi Wan is gonna to ride like this giant feathery chameleon and they have a fight scene.

85wGh37.png
 
I just remember people going fucking bananas in the theater at my midnight showing during that sequence. At the time people ate that shit up. People were freaking out about how awesome Yoda was as we were let out of the theater, I'll never forget how excited seemingly everyone was.

I was excited but I was also like 12. It's still cool in some aspects, but it's not meaningful in the slightest.

I think AOTC gets a lot of shit but I liked a good portion of the film that wasn't anakin/padme. Obiwan's parts were the best.
 
Loved Yoda in the prequels. They actually showed what a badass the little guy was, because in ESB and ROTJ he just comes across as this crazy kook that Luke has to trust for whatever reason.

Yoda goes toe to toe against Palpatine and walks away unharmed. Their fight is one of the highlights of the series. Hopefully Yoda shows up as a Force Ghost in Episode VIII.


Fight? More like danced...
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
Watching Kylo Ren in the movie made it all the more apparent how creatively bankrupt Lucas and many expanded universe products (mainly the games, don't know much about the rest) when it comes to how the Force could be used.

In the prequels, they use force-speed once when they don't really need it, but other than that they just force push, pull, lightsaber-throw, throw stuff and lightning, with varying degrees of power. Like they just copy-pasted everything from the Jedi Knight games.

Speaking of, in the games, they do the same, except amped up to 11. Bringing down a star destroyer? Sure, why not, that only makes you 50 times stronger than Yoda. No biggie.

In TFA however, Kylo is able to freeze laser bolts in mid-air, mind-read/mentally torture people - though that one looks kinda dumb to me - and immobilize someone completely. Also, most of his powers he can hold 'active' while doing other stuff.

If you think about it, they're all variations on existing Force powers (respectively, telekinesis, mind persuasion and force choke), but they're different enough to feel new, powerful and to look cool in a surprising kind of way. The point is that in all those years no-one could be bothered to come up with something as mildly new as those. Up until Episode 7, growing more powerful as a Jedi/Sith simply meant being able to do more of the same + unlocking Force-lightning or Force-persuasion if you were good enough and depending on whether you were on the dark side or the light.

But to me, the Force is not this set of predefined powers you get as you progress (except in video games where it makes sense from a gameplay perspective). It's just a/the fabric of the universe that Force users are able to use to gain more control over reality. In that sense, the way the Force works should be unique to the user, and a reflection of that user's personality, desires and flaws. The Force is an insight into the user's psychology.

Take the Emperor: to me, he's the guy who's able to tell the future to a degree and summon lightning bolts from his fingers. Those are both a testament to how "in tune" he is with the Force (he essentially has a handle on fate and the elements) and a manifestation of his arrogance and pure hatred.

Likewise, Kylo's way of using the Force is that of someone who hates not being in control. He holds laser bolts in place, he forcefully extracts information from other people when they can't be convinced by any other means, and when he meets Rey, he doesn't choke her: he completely paralyzes her.

So, for that alone, I'm grateful that TFA and Kylo are the way they are. They make the Force ever-so-slightly fresher and a useful tool for storytelling once again, as opposed to an empty excuse for more special effects and pseudo-badass moments to wow kids and fanboys. The Force is interesting once again.
 

Angel_DvA

Member
I read somewhere that the New Republic doesn't use Corruscant as their home because Corruscant is the symbol of the corruption of the previous republic and move on other planets to gather old allies confidence, is that true ?
 
He had a connection with Luke though. Same with Luke and Leia. Vader had to use an interrogation droid on Leia, Kylo pulled it right out of Poe.But yeah, obviously they need to introduce new powers to ensure we stay interested in the Force.

True, but as we all know, when ANH came out Leia wasn't Vader's daughter. That was a plot-point fleshed out between ESB and ROTJ. By the same token, Han was tortured for info instead of having it extracted. Its 'on the fly' storytelling at its finest.

The force was introduced in such vague terms and definitions that the leeway was and is there to come up with any power imaginable. No doubt we'll see more and more powers introduced in this new trilogy.
 
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