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[Cth]

Luke saw Obi-Wan do it once and had it explained to him. Rey likely heard the myth of the Jedi mind trick at some point (since she's familiar with the stories of the Jedi), plus Jedi mind tricks were common enough that people like Jabba knew they existed. Both characters had to learn how to actually perform the trick on their own. The first time Luke meets up with Yoda and Obi-Wan again is in ROTJ, he never meets up with them between movies.

Agreed.

Not to mention, prior to that, when Kylo goes into Rey's head, she felt what it was like to enter another person's head.

So, not a huge leap of logic, IMO. If you know how to enter someone's head, and know Jedi's can enter people's heads and leave suggestions, it's a no brainer really.

It seems pretty common knowledge that all Jedis can do it, based on Watto's reaction to Qui Gon trying it, accusing him of thinking he's some sort of Jedi.

Hell, Rey even tries it multiple times before she gets it "right".. and as Kylo said, the longer she was free, the more chance she'd get to perfect things and grow in power.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

No, no no. Not Luke though. I want him to go out like Yoda, not like Ben!

Yoda still dies.

He's probably going to die, man. The old heroes gotta go. All of 'em.

 

[Oidisco]

My totally baseless theory for the direction Kylo Ren's character will progress throughout the trilogy regarding his admiration for Vader:

In Force Awakens he's terrified that he won't be able to live up Vader's example. In Episode 8, my guess is that he'l start to feel like Vader's equal. Probably because of Snoke's training and manipulation, and whatever evil shit he does in the film making him much more confident and arrogant. In Episode 9 he'l think he's superior to Vader in every way. May even go as far as to think Vader was a disappointment because he turned back to the light-side.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is the direction they go with him. I don't see them attempting a redemption arc.

And in other news, John Boyega and Daisy Ridley are the best

 

[MMarston]

My totally baseless theory for the direction Kylo Ren's character will progress throughout the trilogy regarding his admiration for Vader:

In Force Awakens he's terrified that he won't be able to live up Vader. In Episode 8, my guess is that he'l start to feel like Vader's equal. Probably because of Snoke's training and manipulation, and whatever evil shit he does in the film making him much more confident and arrogant. In Episode 9 he'l think he's superior to Vader in every way. May even go as far as to think Vader was a disappointment because he turned back to the light-side.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is the direction they go with him. I don't see them attempting a redemption arc

I'm willing to bet he'll even go "I AM Darth Vader" and don a new version of the iconic mask.

 

[TyrantII]

Indeed, it's just frustrating when people say JJ rehashes too much but is totally fine with Lucas doing it

JJs been saying in interviews that it was the plan to mirror ANH anyways, but be different. To ground the new trilliogy, and go elsewhere in the next two films.

People seem to forget this 1 out of 3 that are planned from the start. It's just the first act, where they introduce you to the characters, set them on their journey, and prove they know what a star wars film is.

Expect it to diverge in Act 2.

 

[nomis]

Prequel apologist 90's kids ITT making the rest of us look bad.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

If they want to recover BB-8 intact, the worst strategy they could use is to send in bombers.

Kylo wanted the droid, Hux had orders to destroy it if they weren't able to capture it intact.

Eh, Im in the camp that thinks she picked it up a bit too quick...the Jedi mind trick without being taught, beating Ren at the end.

Rey was getting mind graped.
Her, confronting her fear in that small moment to fight back and poetry her new "family" allowed her to connect with the force and turn the tables on him.

He basically gave her a crash course in getting in someone's head, and having had to adapt all her life on a desert planet, she had to be a fast learner to survive at such a young age.

Rey was the more level headed at the end which again, allowed her to have a stronger connection with the force.
Plus Kylo let his guard down waiting for her answer on whether she would allow him to train her.

 

[QuantumZebra]

We might not get that but I think we are gearing up for some crazy force powers in the next two films, specifically IX. The final battle between Rey and Kylo isn't going to be some little lightsaber battle. Prolly more Superman vs. Zod.

 

[sphagnum]

They should rip the Force battle between Luke and Vader in the Brackett draft of ESB, with the world falling away and the 'auras' of the combatants growing or shrinking against a field of stars.

 

[Angel_DvA]

Is anyone tried to apply the "RedLetterMedia Character Test" for SW7 characters ? I'd like to see how people describe Rey/Finn/Ren etc...

For people who don't know what the RedLetterMedia Character Test is :

"Describe the following Star Wars character WITHOUT saying what they look like, what kind of costume they wore, or what their profession or role in the movie was. Describe this character to your friends like they ain’t ever seen Star Wars."

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Is anyone tried to apply the "RedLetterMedia Character Test" for SW7 characters

That the first place you saw this test was in a Plinkett video doesn't make it a Red Letter Media test.

But yeah, it's happened in one of these threads at least once that I can remember.

 

[Christine]

Good post. And unlike the ability to freeze laser bolts, force speed just seemed like a lazy way to escape the situation it was used in. How convenient that they forgot to use this ability during the Obiwan/Quigon/ Maul duel when the plot called for them to be separated.

The cool thing about the blast freeze is that you completely forget about it, until Ren boards his ship and releases it. Then you realize that he was doing other things while having the concentration to control the blast ( although, I suppose one could ask why he didn't use that power when Chewie shot at him. Maybe distracted after killing his father?).

No maybe about it, this is the central conflict of Kylo's characterization. He becomes most vulnerable in the moment he's pursuing invincibility.

 

[Liquidsnake]

Yoda still dies.

He's probably going to die, man. The old heroes gotta go. All of 'em.

I have a very strong attachment to Luke, I don't think I can bear that kind of burden.

 

[MMarston]

That the first place you saw this test was in a Plinkett video doesn't make it a Red Letter Media test.

But yeah, it's happened in one of these threads at least once that I can remember.

It was this one and it was answered pretty easily.

e.g. Rey = girl who can hold her own due to her loneliness but also suffers from abandonment issues

 

[Surfinn]

We might not get that but I think we are gearing up for some crazy force powers in the next two films, specifically IX. The final battle between Rey and Kylo isn't going to be some little lightsaber battle. Prolly more Superman vs. Zod.

It won't be exclusively force powers but they'll definitely be a more prominent part of the battle. As it should be. Can't wait..

 

[-griffy-]

These Boyega stock photos been posted yet?

 

[Sephzilla]

Is anyone tried to apply the "RedLetterMedia Character Test" for SW7 characters ? I'd like to see how people describe Rey/Finn/Ren etc...

For people who don't know what the RedLetterMedia Character Test is :

"Describe the following Star Wars character WITHOUT saying what they look like, what kind of costume they wore, or what their profession or role in the movie was. Describe this character to your friends like they ain’t ever seen Star Wars."

Rey - She's determined, a survivor, resourceful, seems to have abandonment issues

Finn - He's someone with a good heart, a bit afraid, cautious and seems to be a bit unsure of himself

Ren - Unstable, probably a bit immature, obsessive, tormented.

I think the three main characters survive the Plinkett test.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

First day at the Stormtrooper Academy

That's TR-8R and Phasma in the back

 

[Sephzilla]

First day at the Stormtrooper Academy

That's TR-8R and Phasma in the back

Finn probably has "Most likely to be a traitor" under his picture for in the yearbook

 

[Bad_Boy]

We might not get that but I think we are gearing up for some crazy force powers in the next two films, specifically IX. The final battle between Rey and Kylo isn't going to be some little lightsaber battle. Prolly more Superman vs. Zod.

I hope not. Superman vs Zod is a little too much. Too dragonball Z. Super speed flying, exploding buildings and what not? Nah.

Maybe Jun Bao vs Chin Bao from Twin Warriors.

 

[Angel_DvA]

Rey - She's determined, a survivor, resourceful, seems to have abandonment issues

Finn - He's someone with a good heart, a bit afraid, cautious and seems to be a bit unsure of himself

Ren - Unstable, probably a bit immature, obsessive, tormented.

I think the three main characters survive the Plinkett test.

Yup they are.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

More oldschool related than new, but a reminder that the Star Wars soundtracks went on sale in crazy style today:

The Ultimate Soundtrack Collection (which isn't really as it doesn't include Force Awakens) on CD ($64) and Vinyl ($199).

The Ultimate Digital Collection (same as above, but mp3) - $50

The Force Awakens (Vinyl) - $50 (which is fucking ridiculous)

 

[Vagabundo]

Most people are fine with it because the film establishes pretty clearly how she learns what she does, and why she has to in the time frame she does. TBH, the people with these complains about this haven't paid much attention to the film, or simply have a disposition to apply double standards to Rey. So I don't think the filmmakers are too worried about those folks.

Be right back I'll have to tell my wife she is either stupid or sexist. Oh come on.

It's not my biggest complaint with the film; Rey is my favourite character by far in TFA. Its fairly minor actually, but it just annoys me to see the comparisons with Luke when quantitatively and qualitatively in the force she handily out classes him by the end of the film.

I think the character would have been better served by a slower progression and by losing the light sabre duel with Kylo, then being saved by that handy crevasse. It would have given her somewhere to go in the next film.

 

[The Librarian]

Be right back I'll have to tell my wife she is either stupid or sexist. Oh come on.

It's not my biggest complaint with the film; Rey is my favourite character by far in TFA. Its fairly minor actually, but it just annoys me to see the comparisons with Luke when quantitatively and qualitatively in the force she handily out classes him by the end of the film.

I think the character would have been better served by a slower progression and by losing the light sabre duel with Kylo, then being saved by that handy crevasse. It would have given her somewhere to go in the next film.

Rey has a shit ton of places to go in the next film.

Edit: hot take and all, but you can be sexist towards your own sex.

 

[Vagabundo]

Rey has a shit ton of places to go in the next film.

Edit: hot take and all, but you can be sexist towards your own sex.

Great, so my wife, me and a couple of my friends are all sexist. Thanks!!

 

[Imperfected]

The sparks suggest the blaster shots hit. To be honest, it makes more sense that he's able to do it because robot hands but that stuff is all over the place.

If you watch carefully, the blaster shots actually get bounced back across the room and hit the wall near Han. They clearly aren't being stopped by armor, they're reflected.

And no, "blaster-proof" anything doesn't make more sense because it immediately raises the question, "Why not blaster-proof everything?" Particularly if you can create a material with enough flexibility and versatility to be used effectively in hands/gloves that can be blaster-proof. You end up in a spiral of stupid trying to explain that where you have "super materials" that are absurdly rare or "one-of-a-kind" cybernetics that they only ever used on Vader and never bothered to replicate.

It becomes a narrative clown fiesta in a hurry.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

but it just annoys me to see the comparisons with Luke when quantitatively and qualitatively in the force she handily out classes him by the end of the film.

The "maybe it's sexism" part comes in where you think the idea of a new hero being potentially more powerful than the old one is inherently a bad thing, whereas we have examples of the new villain being potentially more powerful than the old one at first, and nobody seemed to question that at all, with even less explanation either visually or through dialog.

It begs the question as to why Rey being potentially more powerful than Luke is such a sticking point. The reasoning behind that doesn't HAVE to be sexist, of course. But through the course of multiple discussions about the comparisons and precedents being used, fairly often a kind of low-level sexism tends to bubble up.

It doesn't mean you're some sort of No Ma'am charter member whose indoctrinated your wife into a life of self-hate or anything.

 

[The Librarian]

Great, so my wife, me and a couple of my friends are all sexist. Thanks!!

Well, no. There's a difference between being sexist and being a sexist. We all have our own prejudices, whether they be apparent or hidden. What makes us good people is acknowledging those areas where we can improve and do better and trying as much.

And Ghaleon said lack of paying attention or double standards. You're the one who snatched on to the sexism explanation — and that might tell you something.

 

[MutFox]

Great, so my wife, me and a couple of my friends are all sexist. Thanks!!

Either with us or against us!
Rey is a perfect character, if you look up perfect in the dictionary, it's Rey.

 

[LegendofLex]

It's not my biggest complaint with the film; Rey is my favourite character by far in TFA. Its fairly minor actually, but it just annoys me to see the comparisons with Luke when quantitatively and qualitatively in the force she handily out classes him by the end of the film.

Maybe?

I mean, she never does any of the things Luke did in ANH in TFA.*
Likewise, Luke never tries any of the things she does in TFA in ANH.*

*Aside from flying a ship in an intense situation and not dying, which every major character in both the OT and PT seemed to be able to do by default.

Both of them manage things within a couple tries; Luke only struggles at doing Force stuff a single time in ANH (it's implied this is because he didn't really believe in what he was trying to do) after which he does it on the second try; Rey struggles with everything she tries and takes three tries to do the one thing people see as the most jarring (mind trick), and she only succeeds at beating Kylo in a duel once she trusts in the Force and believes.

I think the character would have been better served by a slower progression and by losing the light sabre duel with Kylo, then being saved by that handy crevasse. It would have given her somewhere to go in the next film.

She already initially lost to Kylo when he captured her.

Then she rose up to challenge him during her interrogation and managed to stave him off and begin to try getting into his head, too.

Then she fought him, calling on faith in the guidance of the all-powerful Force when he was physically (symbolically) and emotionally wounded and weakened.

It's like Luke's story arc, but compressed into one movie and without the actual finality - suggesting we'll see that arc continue to develop through Rey.

 

[brandonh83]

I'm beginning to think that Rey's character arc and flaws will end up being that she's too Force sensitive and that she'll have trouble keeping her powers at bay. Unless this was the extent of how crazy gifted she is, but I dunno, Ben is terrified of her and I think both light and dark centric characters will be fighting over her. And I think it will be up to Luke and Finn to keep her in check.

Whatever the case they didn't write her to be that strong and perfect and I think it'll backfire in the worst ways imaginable. She'll either get way too confident and make a huge mistake resulting in death and destruction, or decide to be neutral and not really on a particular side. Either way the speculation is pretty fascinating and it helps make the wait for 8 unbearable.

 

[Interfectum]

Be right back I'll have to tell my wife she is either stupid or sexist. Oh come on.

It's not my biggest complaint with the film; Rey is my favourite character by far in TFA. Its fairly minor actually, but it just annoys me to see the comparisons with Luke when quantitatively and qualitatively in the force she handily out classes him by the end of the film.

I think the character would have been better served by a slower progression and by losing the light sabre duel with Kylo, then being saved by that handy crevasse. It would have given her somewhere to go in the next film.

Lets make Rey a male and cast her someone random like Tom Hardy. He grew up on a shitty desert planet, from the age of 5, had to learn to scavenge, fight and live on his own for a decade or two. Streetwise as fuck and taught himself how to fly out of boredom.

In that final fight, as Tom Hardy is slowly learning he actually has some badass powers, he starts mixing those powers with his already great ability to wield a staff. He's going up against a privileged angry little shit who is obviously powerful with the force but is way too arrogant for his own good and sloppy due to being almost mortally wounded. At a pivotal moment, close to falling to his death, Tom Hardy gets a nice jolt from his new found powers and manages to overtake Kylo and win the duel. Kylo seemingly lost for a few reasons. He's injured, he's mindfucked from killing his dad and he let his guard down while trying to recruit Tom Hardy.

Is Tom Hardy a Mary Sue in this scenario? Is it really that unbelievable that he could turn that fight around?

 

[Grover Cleveland]

Let's not act like Rey thoroughly dominated Kylo in that duel. In fact it was pretty much the opposite until she hit the Avatar State on him.

The movie goes to great pains to show how her letting the Force in clearly changed the tides in both of her meetings with Kylo, the interrogation and the duel.

 

[The Librarian]

Rey would have lost to Kylo had he been at full strength.

 

[brandonh83]

Luke didn't have any notable flaws until 5 when they started exploring his psyche in the cave scene, how Yoda said he wouldn't need a weapon but took it anyway, and how he ran off to Bespin over his visions (later revisited in the prequels). In 4 he was pretty much a straight up hero without any real training, he didn't really make any mistakes and destroyed the fucking Death Star through space magic.

Yet with Rey it's just all wrong somehow and there's no way they can possibly turn her feats against her as her arc progresses. It's an episodic series.

 

[Interfectum]

Rey would have lost to Kylo had he been at full strength.

Hell if we are judging these guys by how they fight, the Count Dooku vs Anakin and Obi Wan fight. Dooku force pushes Obi Wan and he's out for the rest of the fucking time. lol Amazing Jedi.

Hell Darth Vader gave up when Luke sliced his mechanical hand off.

Kylo was still standing and able to fight after taking a shot to the gut and was bleeding out.

 

[LegendofLex]

Hell if we are judging these guys by how they fight, the Count Dooku vs Anakin and Obi Wan fight. Dooku force pushes Obi Wan and he's out for the rest of the fucking time. lol Amazing Jedi.

Dooku owns Kenobi
Anakin owns Dooku
Yet Kenobi > Anakin in the final fight

wtf

 

[Vagabundo]

The "maybe it's sexism" part comes in where you think the idea of a new hero being potentially more powerful than the old one is inherently a bad thing, whereas we have examples of the new villain being potentially more powerful than the old one at first, and nobody seemed to question that at all, with even less explanation either visually or through dialog.

It begs the question as to why Rey being potentially more powerful than Luke is such a sticking point. The reasoning behind that doesn't HAVE to be sexist, of course. But through the course of multiple discussions about the comparisons and precedents being used, fairly often a kind of low-level sexism tends to bubble up.

It doesn't mean you're some sort of No Ma'am charter member whose indoctrinated your wife into a life of self-hate or anything.

I've no problem with Rey being a force savant, something very special - The One - but nothing was mentioned in the film about that possibility. Maz was probably the best place to do that directly.

MAZ: "I sense you are very strong in the force, far stronger than your fathe... err Luke"

If she's just strong in the force like the Skywalkers maybe she doesn't have the personality flaws that they had; Anakin was a rage filled a-hole and Luke was a self doubting cry baby, both of those things interfered with them accessing the light side of the force. Luke eventually overcame it over the course of three films and Anakin went to the dark side where he could best use that rage for power. The two of them still had guidance and a lot of time to train.

However,when it is mentioned that she has a quick force progression that seems out of kilter with what we've seen so far in the movies, out come the comparisons with Luke and they just don;t hold up. The TFA lover should just admit she has a very fast progression because she is really good and doesn;t have much holding her back.

I'd still counter that the Force isn't just a power well you can access at will but requires a certain amount of training, guidance and practice to do, that's what I've leanrt from the previous films. Then we can all go on our merry way; me believing the film-makers fucked up by not giving her time to train - which would have slowed down the pacing of the film and it would have been much better for it - and the rest of yez believing that the Force can just spontaneously appear in someone's life if they just believe in themselves enough.

 

[Savitar]

Saw it for a second time. Went with the idea of trying to see if I could see the faults with the film greater than the first time based on what people said.

Still love it.

If anything made me love it all the more. Daisy really does have fantastic facial expressions.

When it comes to the fight with Kylo Ren he was already not in the greatest shape. He was wounded by Chewbecca's blast and still able to fight. That's pretty damn impressive considering it usually threw people into the air and land several feet behind where they were. Sure it was more of a partial hit than full dead on but you know that's still going to do damage, we see his blood and he keeps smacking the area probably in an attempt to make his side feel something other than pure agony.

He's obviously tortured by the light and dark warring in him, he just killed his father. Emotionally, mentally you know he's got to be going through one hell of a battle with himself at that point even if he meant for it to push him completely to the dark side. In his fight with Finn and Rey he appears to be acting purely on emotion even as his body is getting exhausted. He doesn't seem to be employing any strategy other than "Die to my lightsaber already!". That's why Finn gets a hit on his arm. By the time Rey is in the picture she has Vaders/Lukes former lightsaber which he felt belongs to him. You know his mind has to be a whirl of emotions that she was able to get it and not him.

In the end he's tired, physically, mentally and emotionally. He's not really tapping into the Force because he's too consumed on whats happening. But Rey does, she composes herself and that makes the difference. He's spent rage by this point. Everything was suppose to work out for him, come together, instead it all feel apart on him. And so she takes him down.

If he was fully trained it likely would have been a different story. The next film shall be interesting to see how he's developed.

Back to Rey, anyone else catch onto the fact the dream Kylo sensed she had every night of a island in the ocean ended up being where Luke was? Has to be one more part of the tip offs she is his daughter as well.

People say that the film was a ANH rehash but in so many ways it felt like they crunched the entire OT into one film so they can do new things in the next two. I loved how much of the film didn't pander either, the PT did this in spades, instead TFU felt like natural story pregression and didn't waste time focusing on things as if to say "OMG, lightsabers, look, lightsabers, isn't it cool, that's Star Wars!". Everything kept moving.

 

[Interfectum]

I'd still counter that the Force isn't just a power well you can access at will but requires a certain amount of training, guidance and practice to do, that's what I've leanrt from the previous films. Then we can all go on our merry way; me believing the film-makers fucked up by not giving her time to train - which would have slowed down the pacing of the film and it would have been much better for it - and the rest of yez believing that the Force can just spontaneously appear in someone's life if they just believe in themselves enough.

Err, if she's powerful with the force, she could have been using it her entire life and not knowing it. She was dropped off on Jakku at like the age of 5 and seemingly living on her own. Subconsciously she's probably been accessing parts of the force her entire life. Once someone told her it was an actual thing she was able to get a better handle on shit she already kinda knew.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Be right back I'll have to tell my wife she is either stupid or sexist. Oh come on.

It's not my biggest complaint with the film; Rey is my favourite character by far in TFA. Its fairly minor actually, but it just annoys me to see the comparisons with Luke when quantitatively and qualitatively in the force she handily out classes him by the end of the film.

I think the character would have been better served by a slower progression and by losing the light sabre duel with Kylo, then being saved by that handy crevasse. It would have given her somewhere to go in the next film.

First, context matters. I was less replying to his specific points - which have been addressed repeatedly over the course of these threads, and in recent pages, and more to the general observation he made at the end about lots of people having problems with Rey (which is why I bolded it in my reply). That's true! It's also true that there is unquestionably a sexist streak running through a lot of the objections to Rey - MRA boycotted the film for a reason - but in my discussions here I always assume that is not the case and argue on the merits. (I've elaborated on this before.)

To the bold: yes, Rey learns more about the Force than Luke does in ANH. Why is that a problem? Again, Luke learns his only two overt uses of the Force in ANH immediately. Rey learns at the same pace. Luke does two intentional uses of the Force in ANH; Rey does three in TFA. This is constantly made out to be like some huge gulf between them, but it's simply not.

Rey has more opportunity to learn, and more reasons to apply it than Luke does, but learns her individual abilities at the same pace. Granted, it is compressed into the back half of the second act and through the third, but it's a continuation from the first. So the time from Rey learning she's force sensitive to pulling the lightsaber from the snow is shorter in film time than the time from Luke's learning to his shot at the end of ANH. But the actual time they had to to learn how to do those things is more than comparable.

 

[LegendofLex]

I've no problem with Rey being a force savant, something very special - The One - but nothing was mentioned in the film about that possibility.

SNOKE (right after Rey/Finn win the dogfight even though Rey "has no idea" how she did it): "There has been an awakening. Have you felt it?"

[...]

MAZ: " I am no Jedi, but I know the Force. It moves through and surrounds every living thing. Close your eyes... feel it. The light... it's always been there, it will guide you."

[...]

SNOKE: "The scavenger...resisted YOU?!"
KYLO: "She's strong in the Force! Untrained, but stronger than she knows."

At that point, even Snoke starts to take an interest in her.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Dooku owns Kenobi
Anakin owns Dooku
Yet Kenobi > Anakin in the final fight

wtf

Vader owns Luke
Yet Luke owns Vader in the final fight

wtf

 

[The Librarian]

SNOKE (right after Rey/Finn win the dogfight even though Rey "has no idea" how she did it): "There has been an awakening. Have you felt it?"

[...]

MAZ: " I am no Jedi, but I know the Force. It moves through and surrounds every living thing. Close your eyes... feel it. The light... it's always been there, it will guide you."

[...]

SNOKE: "The scavenger...resisted YOU?!"
KYLO: "She's strong in the Force! Untrained, but stronger than she knows."

At that point, even Snoke starts to take an interest in her.

Also forgot Kylo saying to the female Stormtrooper: the longer she evades capture, the more dangerous she becomes.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I've no problem with Rey being a force savant, something very special - The One - but nothing was mentioned in the film about that possibility. Maz was probably the best place to do that directly.

MAZ: "I sense you are very strong in the force, far stronger than your fathe... err Luke"

But why put it into expositional dialogue like that? What's the benefit outside of being able to win arguments on the internet much more easily? Not that Force Awakens is a super-subtle film or anything, but her flying the Falcon is immediately followed up by Snoke noticing there's been an awakening strong enough that both he and Kylo have felt it. So I mean, that says something, right? She also had a vision the likes of which has never been seen in a Star Wars movie before, featuring people she's never met speaking directly to her, which also points the way towards something pretty substantial. Having Maz stop down to directly explain "you might actually blow past the previously established powerlevel ceiling we had installed" is a lot less graceful, I think, as opposed to simply watching this woman figure the shit out for herself and make it work.

I'd still counter that the Force isn't just a power well you can access at will but requires a certain amount of training, guidance and practice to do, that's what I've leanrt from the previous films.

I'd suggest you don't actually learn that from the previous films at all. You learn that from the ancillary merchandising - the books and (especially) the video games. Other people have made the arguments much more thoroughly upthread, but the films (especially the OT) suggest level of training isn't really all that important, and "training" itself is simply a matter of figuring out how to get out of the Force's way when you're tapping into it.

Which is what we see her doing every time she uses it in the film.

Again: I think it says something that Kylo comes straight out the gate being able to pause people, literally pull memories out of their heads, along with force pulling people AND being able to fight with a lightsaber, and almost nobody asked why the film didn't bother to explain how he could do this. They just took it as read that he was well trained because the big Gollum looking Prometheus dude looked big and Prometheus-y.

That seems to be the point at which people start tripping.

 

[LegendofLex]

I'd suggest you don't actually learn that from the previous films at all. You learn that from the ancillary merchandising - the books and (especially) the video games. Other people have made the arguments much more thoroughly upthread, but the films (especially the OT) suggest level of training isn't really all that important, and "training" itself is simply a matter of figuring out how to get out of the Force's way when you're tapping into it.

Which is what we see her doing every time she uses it in the film.

I love the way you put this.

Vader owns Luke
Yet Luke owns Vader in the final fight

wtf

Yes, but we have an entire movie (roughly a year's time?) where Luke goes from needing more training to "no more training do you require" there.

Basically no meaningful growth happens on Obi-Wan's part between the Battle of Coruscant and his duel with Anakin.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Yes, but we have an entire movie (roughly a year's time?) where Luke goes from needing more training to "no more training do you require" there.

Basically no meaningful growth happens on Obi-Wan's part between the Battle of Coruscant and his duel with Anakin.

But they know each other's fighting styles to a tee and Anakin's become even more arrogant by that point.

 

[brandonh83]

I'm kinda thinking Kylo isn't quite the shit like many seem to believe. He throws tantrums and wears a mysterious mask and while he obviously CAN fight, I think there's a reason why Rey and Finn were able to stand up to him. He's good, but I think we're giving him maybe too much credit.

Hell, Snoke telling Hux to retrieve Kylo to finish his training suggests that he's not up to par and needs work. I don't find anything about the events that transpired to be unbelievable. I think Kylo is, at least of VII, something of a fraud. For now. And Rey isn't.

 

[Lucc]

Dooku owns Kenobi
Anakin owns Dooku
Yet Kenobi > Anakin in the final fight

wtf

he has the higher ground man! you should go warch the prequels again.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Hell, Snoke telling Hux to retrieve Kylo to finish his training suggests that he's not up to par and needs work. I don't find anything about the events that transpired to be unbelievable. I think Kylo is, at least of VII, something of a fraud. For now. And Rey isn't.

I think they're both fraudulent. Snoke moreso, honestly (Wizard of Oz and all). Snoke is literally a front in this film, and nothing but a front. No idea what he's actually like behind that hologram. And Kylo is obviously fronting, as we're shown the levels to which he's indulging in that villain-worship trip he's on.