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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

B

brandonh83

Banned
Fourth Storm said:
Yeah, I'm interested in where Snoke's philosophy falls on the spectrum of Force religions. That he chose Ren for his light as well as dark qualities exhibits a disconnect from Sith teachings.
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They're going to get away from the mechanical viewpoints of the orders in the prequels. The times are much different. The Sith whom established this rule are long gone. The Jedi order that wouldn't allow love or the fucking permission for one of them to go visit their damn mom is gone. That was ridiculous and I'm not saying that against the prequels. I thought it was sensible and made sense toward the fall of the Jedi and why Anakin hated the shit out of them.

But now we have a time period of no Jedi besides Luke and no Sith, label-speaking unless Snoke is a Sith by label.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
The power level of The Force isn't something measured just in feats. Some techniques are limited (Force Ghost is Light side only, Force Lightning is Dark side only last I knew), others are.. specialized i.e. Force Levitation, Force Visions. Training can shore up areas where a Force User is weaker but some Force Users are naturally more adept at some techniques than others.

It's not as simple as "This guy lifted and threw a big rock with the Force super easy and the other guy struggled with it so the first guy is stronger."
 
J

JoeInky

Member
Nien Nunb doesn't sit on the sidelines, he wants to be in the thick of it with the rest of them, he's not some pansy like ackbar.

E: Threads got merged? I got really confused for a few minutes there.
 
B

brandonh83

Banned
The One Who Knocks said:
She's definitely feeding off anger in the final fight of the movie and draws from it while utilising the force, but I do agree that she probably will not become a villain, and I'm hesitant to believe her primary struggle will be with the dark side, mainly because of it being something repetitive (cue "it's poetry"), even if possible.
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Being pissed off doesn't make someone evil. She was upset at him because he kidnapped her, tried to torture her and sliced up her new bestie pretty good. And killed Han. She doesn't like him because he's the textbook definition of a dickbag.
 
M

MMarston

Was getting caught part of your plan?
brandonh83 said:
Being pissed off doesn't make someone evil. She was upset at him because he kidnapped her, tried to torture her and sliced up her new bestie pretty good. And killed Han. She doesn't like him because he's the textbook definition of a dickbag.
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Something something anger leads to hate
 
S

Surfinn

Member
GhaleonEB said:
I think they planted this seed in the film.

Han: "Snoke is using you for your power. When he gets what he wants, he'll destroy you. You know it's true."

I think Kylo does know this on some level - it's all over his face - and will act first. At least I hope to hell he does, for the reasons you outlined.
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Good point. But if this happens, when will be the opportune time? He'll only kill Snoke once he feels he's learned all he can from him, but there's no telling when that will be. And from what we've seen, I think he's far too weak to pull of a great enough feat to defeat a 1000 year old dark side master. In the novelization, I believe it's suggested that Ren is actually weakened by the act of killing his father. If that's true, he probably doesn't have what it takes to dedicate all his power to the light OR dark side.
 
F

Fourth Storm

Member
brandonh83 said:
They're going to get away from the mechanical viewpoints of the orders in the prequels. The times are much different. The Sith whom established this rule are long gone. The Jedi order that wouldn't allow love or the fucking permission for one of them to go visit their damn mom is gone. That was ridiculous and I'm not saying that against the prequels. I thought it was sensible and made sense toward the fall of the Jedi and why Anakin hated the shit out of them.

But now we have a time period of no Jedi besides Luke and no Sith, label-speaking unless Snoke is a Sith by label.
Click to expand...

True, and if Vader was the last Sith that doesn't leave much room open for a succession. I don't think that's something you can just read up on for training.

Snoke was supposedly active during the Clone Wars, but we haven't seen him in anything up til now. Of course, even with the CGI series, I suppose we didn't learn everything about that time period. But it makes you wonder how he got to be...scarred and deformed. The side of his face appears as if it may be the result of a lightsaber.
 
M

MMarston

Was getting caught part of your plan?
Fourth Storm said:
Snoke was supposedly active during the Clone Wars, but we haven't seen him in anything up til now. Of course, even with the CGI series, I suppose we didn't learn everything about that time period. But it makes you wonder how he got to be...scarred and deformed. The side of his face appears as if it may be the result of a lightsaber.
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I don't watch Rebels but there is that one Inquisitor dude...
 
B

brandonh83

Banned
Fourth Storm said:
True, and if Vader was the last Sith that doesn't leave much room open for a succession. I don't think that's something you can just read up on for training.

Snoke was supposedly active during the Clone Wars, but we haven't seen him in anything up til now. Of course, even with the CGI series, I suppose we didn't learn everything about that time period. But it makes you wonder how he got to be...scarred and deformed. The side of his face appears as if it may be the result of a lightsaber.
Click to expand...

I'll be the first to admit that Snoke is kind of a deliberate retcon in a way. I don't feel an organic correlation between Snoke and the events of the ENTIRE SERIES until this point. It's not really a problem exactly, but this is why I was kinda hoping at one point that Snoke was Plageuis as at least it would sorta make more sense as Plageuis was name dropped as early as Episode III.

I'm sure whatever explanation they have is fine and will work, it's just hard to believe that Snoke has been this evil mastermind the entire time. Unless Snoke is Boss Ass.
 
F

Fourth Storm

Member
MMarston said:
I don't watch Rebels but there is that one Inquisitor dude...
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's an interesting theory as well, and it would make sense that they want to tie Rebels into sequel trilogy. But the Inquisitor seems to have a longer head? Do we have any idea what race Snoke is? Looks possibly human to me.
 
G

-griffy-

Banned
brandonh83 said:
Being pissed off doesn't make someone evil. She was upset at him because he kidnapped her, tried to torture her and sliced up her new bestie pretty good. And killed Han. She doesn't like him because he's the textbook definition of a dickbag.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but in that moment the anger was clearly motivating her, and therefore she was feeding off the dark side. I kind of touched on it in an edit on my earlier post that I thought was a new post at first:
-griffy- said:
And to the larger conversation going on right now, I'll repeat what I said earlier in the thread: The single most important piece of Force training anyone can get is the simple knowledge that they are Force-sensitive. I'll expand on that here and point out that the Force is a storytelling tool used to put forth the main thematic element of Luke's story, and being reinforced even harder with Rey's (and also the thing JJ has repeatedly said stuck with him from the series, and what he hoped to recapture). The Force is a metaphor for that hidden potential we all have inside of us. The idea that anyone, no matter how insignificant, can achieve great things if they believe in themselves. So, once you see what you are capable of, aka someone tells you you have the Force, the sky is kind of the limit.

How you apply that power, where you direct it, and what emotions feed it, is what the training is really about. Rey is still a scrub when it comes to that side of things. She has this power but doesn't understand why or how she should direct it, which is why she almost goes too far and nearly kills Kylo due to her anger. That's what she needs training for.

I also really like Killrogg's post a few pages back, I think it kind of hits on this idea in a different way, and I love how he points out the way individual character's use of the Force are reflections of those characters.
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When it goes into slow motion and Kylo scrambles onto the ground, and you essentially have this shot:
tumblr_lojwzg94aa1qckmajo1_1280.gif


Only the roles are reversed, and the tired, beaten Batman is Kylo, and Rey is the one intimidatingly approaching him. And then she attacks him when he's down, disarming and disfiguring him. Who knows what she would have done if the chasm hadn't separated them at that moment. I've said this before, but I almost read that as the will of the Force itself intervening, going "Woah now, this is nuts. We better separate these two before shit goes south." It doesn't mean Rey is evil or is straight up going to the dark side any more than it meant Luke was evil in ESB or when he briefly succumbed in ROTJ, though. It's just kind of how the Force works, and is evidence that Rey needs training to get that stuff under control and understand exactly how she should harness her powers.
 
L

LegendofLex

Member
brandonh83 said:
I'll be the first to admit that Snoke is kind of a deliberate retcon in a way. I don't feel an organic correlation between Snoke and the events of the ENTIRE SERIES until this point. It's not really a problem exactly, but this is why I was kinda hoping at one point that Snoke was Plageuis as at least it would sorta make more sense as Plageuis was name dropped as early as Episode III.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think the Plagueis name-drop kind of loses its purpose once you strip any enduring relevance to the other films out of the picture. As it stands, he's just a red herring in Episode III. That's not a particularly weighty reason to force his inclusion in the sequel trilogy, of course, but it sort of tears a hole in what's otherwise a fairly tight set of major story beats/logic across all the trilogies so far.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Surfinn said:
Good point. But if this happens, when will be the opportune time? He'll only kill Snoke once he feels he's learned all he can from him, but there's no telling when that will be. And from what we've seen, I think he's far too weak to pull of a great enough feat to defeat a 1000 year old dark side master. In the novelization, I believe it's suggested that Ren is actually weakened by the act of killing his father. If that's true, he probably doesn't have what it takes to dedicate all his power to the light OR dark side.
Click to expand...

The biggest question I have going into VIII is, what's the time skip? How far into Rey's training will we be, how much further down the path will Kylo have gone? Rey is just getting started, and Kylo was a complete mess by the end of TFA. I hope it's not too far - I want to see these characters as they develop. But if that's the case, then probably not until IX.
 
F

Fourth Storm

Member
brandonh83 said:
I'll be the first to admit that Snoke is kind of a deliberate retcon in a way. I don't feel an organic correlation between Snoke and the events of the ENTIRE SERIES until this point. It's not really a problem exactly, but this is why I was kinda hoping at one point that Snoke was Plageuis as at least it would sorta make more sense as Plageuis was name dropped as early as Episode III.

I'm sure whatever explanation they have is fine and will work, it's just hard to believe that Snoke has been this evil mastermind the entire time. Unless Snoke is Boss Ass.
Click to expand...

Agreed. He could have been watching from afar in the unknown regions. I found the Plagueis cheating death angle to be pretty intriguing, but it seems from interviews that that door is closed. I feel like they need to tie him in to some event/character in a meaningful way, however, in order to explain his prominence/presumed force abilities.

And just for fun, Plagueis created Anakin: Yes or No?
 
F

Future PhaZe

Member
There are aspects of Plageuis that make it so a direct 1:1 history from the book would be awkward. It's very good up until the end where Luceno gets too cute about trying to have the book lead in directly to TPM.
 
S

sphagnum

Banned
MMarston said:
I don't watch Rebels but there is that one Inquisitor dude...
Click to expand...

Rebels spoilers

He's dead. After he failed to keep Kanan from escaping in the season 1 finale, he let himself fall into an explosion. Filoni has confirmed that he is dead. He was supposed to last longer as a more prominent villain but they decided that his failure needed consequences because Vader would not have tolerated it and would have killed him anyway.
 
T

Toa TAK

Banned
sphagnum said:
Rebels spoilers

He's dead. After he failed to keep Kanan from escaping in the season 1 finale, he let himself fall into an explosion. Filoni has confirmed that he is dead. He was supposed to last longer as a more prominent villain but they decided that his failure needed consequences because Vader would not have tolerated it and would have killed him anyway.
Click to expand...

It's a shame, too, because he's still the best of the Inquisitors we've gotten so far.
 
B

brandonh83

Banned
-griffy- said:
Yeah, but in that moment the anger was clearly motivating her, and therefore she was feeding off the dark side. I kind of touched on it in an edit on my earlier post that I thought was a new post at first:
Click to expand...

Yeah and after four theatrical viewings I've noticed this as well. My takeaway however is that it doesn't mean that she was being some kind of hot Force demon, but just someone with natural human feelings. And I think and hope, at least, that this trilogy is where Jedi and Sith, light and dark users are treated as normal people rather than these robotic followers.

The prequels established its orders to where it was more of a police force than something with emotional merit. That's what WE expected of the Jedi in the prequels but what Lucas went against in favor of more interesting or different from our expectations. What he did was more sensible, if the Jedi were these perfectly cool and understanding badasses, why would Anakin have had problems, how would Sheeeeiv have dominated them and so on. The way he went with it was against large fan demand, BUT it made more sense for the story.

And I've always hated it. Again not against the prequels, but I've always wanted to see movies where the Jedi weren't divided into a specific order but rather to flourish.

Fourth Storm said:
And just for fun, Plagueis created Anakin: Yes or No?
Click to expand...

I have no opinion because I feel like more information is needed in order to do such. Palpatine was so fucking devilish in that scene that it could go either way, and Lucas was SUPER clever in the writing. In the first we learn there was no father, in 3 we learn there's a Sith that can influence the midichlorians to create life. So... what is it? Was it a red herring, or is there truth to it?
 
F

Fourth Storm

Member
Future PhaZe said:
There are aspects of Plageuis that make it so a direct 1:1 history from the book would be awkward. It's very good up until the end where Luceno gets too cute about trying to have the book lead in directly to TPM.
Click to expand...

I haven't read the book. Is it good? I understand it's been retconned, but apparently Luceno made certain aspects canon in Tarkin and they could still draw inspiration from it.
 
F

Fourth Storm

Member
-griffy- said:
Yeah, but in that moment the anger was clearly motivating her, and therefore she was feeding off the dark side. I kind of touched on it in an edit on my earlier post that I thought was a new post at first:
Click to expand...

It seemed like Luke was feeding off anger in the final moments of his duel w/ Vader in RotJ. Perhaps there'e a little wiggle room for Jedi emotions in practice.

Edit: No new posts between mine? C'mon now!
 
F

Future PhaZe

Member
Fourth Storm said:
I haven't read the book. Is it good? I understand it's been retconned, but apparently Luceno made certain aspects canon in Tarkin and they could still draw inspiration from it.
Click to expand...

4/5 of it are fantastic. The last bit tries to tie him literally into events of TPM and it starts to read like fanfic.
 
B

brandonh83

Banned
Fourth Storm said:
It seemed like Luke was feeding off anger in the final moments of his duel w/ Vader in RotJ. It seems like there's a little wiggle room for Jedi emotions in practice.
Click to expand...

Again Jedi and Sith boundaries are stupid. You can be light or dark without being good or evil. That's what I believe these new movies will cover. There are moments in 7 where I'm like damn Rey is scarier than Ren. It doesn't matter which side they fall on.

And I hate to bring this up but what if this story is STILL about the chosen one?
 
S

Surfinn

Member
GhaleonEB said:
The biggest question I have going into VIII is, what's the time skip? How far into Rey's training will we be, how much further down the path will Kylo have gone? Rey is just getting started, and Kylo was a complete mess by the end of TFA. I hope it's not too far - I want to see these characters as they develop. But if that's the case, then probably not until IX.
Click to expand...

Also been thinking about this. I want to watch Snoke train Kylo, as we've never seen that side of the force before. And of course watch Luke/Rey. Hope they don't skip too much..
 
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