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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

I've no problem with Rey being a force savant, something very special - The One - but nothing was mentioned in the film about that possibility. Maz was probably the best place to do that directly.

MAZ: "I sense you are very strong in the force, far stronger than your fathe... err Luke"
Like, say, Kylo straight up telling his boss she is strong with the force and even stronger than she knows?

However,when it is mentioned that she has a quick force progression that seems out of kilter with what we've seen so far in the movies, out come the comparisons with Luke and they just don;t hold up. The TFA lover should just admit she has a very fast progression because she is really good and doesn;t have much holding her back.
Sounds fair, nothing wrong with Rey being a quick study.
I'd still counter that the Force isn't just a power well you can access at will but requires a certain amount of training, guidance and practice to do, that's what I've leanrt from the previous films.
That doesn't conflict with anything in the Force Awakens. We've seen through training you can master your access to the force, but it's not like the force has ever been established to be locked behind some door until a teacher unlocks it. Nothing we've seen shows Rey is a master that can do these things at will. Every time she's tapped into the force it has been out of instinct and desperation.

The key lesson behind accessing the force as shown in the OT, namely the pivotal scenes of Kenobi teaching Luke to block shots and Yoda lifting the X-wing, have been all about chilling out and letting the force do the work. You know "letting it in".
 

Savitar

Member
Rey isn't a Force savant, she has heard the stories and tales. She knows what it's suppose to be able to do. Hell even Luke once told to "use the force" is able to do some amazing things without being trained. He blew up the Death Star using it and not his on board target system. He was hardly trained.

Use the Force and you can accomplish great things. We've seen this before.
 

-griffy-

Banned
I'm kinda thinking Kylo isn't quite the shit like many seem to believe. He throws tantrums and wears a mysterious mask and while he obviously CAN fight, I think there's a reason why Rey and Finn were able to stand up to him. He's good, but I think we're giving him maybe too much credit.

Hell, Snoke telling Hux to retrieve Kylo to finish his training suggests that he's not up to par and needs work. I don't find anything about the events that transpired to be unbelievable. I think Kylo is, at least of VII, something of a fraud. For now. And Rey isn't.
Kylo's obviously extremely powerful. He can't stop a blaster shot mid-air, or mind-control torture someone, or paralyze Rey if he isn't powerful. But he also happens to be a complete fucking mess, which means he's prone to being unfocused and unpredictable. It's what makes him strong, and dangerous, and scary, and weak all at once.

And to the larger conversation going on right now, I'll repeat what I said earlier in the thread: The single most important piece of Force training anyone can get is the simple knowledge that they are Force-sensitive. I'll expand on that here and point out that the Force is a storytelling tool used to put forth the main thematic element of Luke's story, and being reinforced even harder with Rey's (and also the thing JJ has repeatedly said stuck with him from the series, and what he hoped to recapture). The Force is a metaphor for that hidden potential we all have inside of us. The idea that anyone, no matter how insignificant, can achieve great things if they believe in themselves. So, once you see what you are capable of, aka someone tells you you have the Force, the sky is kind of the limit.

How you apply that power, where you direct it, and what emotions feed it, is what the training is really about. Rey is still a scrub when it comes to that side of things. She has this power but doesn't understand why or how she should direct it, which is why she almost goes too far and nearly kills Kylo due to her anger. That's what she needs training for.

I also really like Killrogg's post a few pages back, I think it kind of hits on this idea in a different way, and I love how he points out the way individual character's use of the Force are reflections of those characters.
 

Surfinn

Member
I'm kinda thinking Kylo isn't quite the shit like many seem to believe. He throws tantrums and wears a mysterious mask and while he obviously CAN fight, I think there's a reason why Rey and Finn were able to stand up to him. He's good, but I think we're giving him maybe too much credit.

Hell, Snoke telling Hux to retrieve Kylo to finish his training suggests that he's not up to par and needs work. I don't find anything about the events that transpired to be unbelievable. I think Kylo is, at least of VII, something of a fraud. For now. And Rey isn't.
And that was exactly the point of him. Very well done. Appears menacing, revealed as a deeper, more unstable and self destructive type of character.
 

Toa TAK

Banned
More oldschool related than new, but a reminder that the Star Wars soundtracks went on sale in crazy style today:

The Ultimate Soundtrack Collection (which isn't really as it doesn't include Force Awakens) on CD ($64) and Vinyl ($199).

The Ultimate Digital Collection (same as above, but mp3) - $50

The Force Awakens (Vinyl) - $50 (which is fucking ridiculous)
That vinyl is tempting.

But I pity the fool who has to scroll through that album for a particular song.
 
I think they're both fraudulent. Snoke moreso, honestly (Wizard of Oz and all). Snoke is literally a front in this film, and nothing but a front. No idea what he's actually like behind that hologram. And Kylo is obviously fronting, as we're shown the levels to which he's indulging in that villain-worship trip he's on.

I think so too. I mean I'm not sure about Snoke yet as we have no idea who he is, but he apparently has been around for a while. I don't think he's Plageuis, but I think they could go for this angle where he's been the ultimate Sith behind the scenes sort. I don't even know about THAT per se, but we'll see. We WILL need a no-bullshit villain though at some point or else... what's the threat?

Rey...?
 

Interfectum

Member
I'm kinda thinking Kylo isn't quite the shit like many seem to believe. He throws tantrums and wears a mysterious mask and while he obviously CAN fight, I think there's a reason why Rey and Finn were able to stand up to him. He's good, but I think we're giving him maybe too much credit.

Hell, Snoke telling Hux to retrieve Kylo to finish his training suggests that he's not up to par and needs work. I don't find anything about the events that transpired to be unbelievable. I think Kylo is, at least of VII, something of a fraud. For now. And Rey isn't.

I agree. Also think about Kylo vs. Rey from where they came from. Kylo comes from a place of privilege. He's never had to worry about food or shelter. His mother is royalty, his father is Han fucking Solo and his uncle is the dude who saved the galaxy. In the movie the mutherfucker is on an air-conditioned ship chilling out doing whatever the fuck he wants.

Now Rey, poor as fuck, living in an AT-AT's foot, scrounging shit from old spaceships so she can make herself a fucking inflatable muffin to eat. That muffin is prolly covered in sand too... Anakin would hate that shit.

One could argue that Rey has far more life experience than Kylo. She's had to fend for herself most of her life while Kylo has had everything handed to him on a silver platter (from the light and dark side).
 
But they know each other's fighting styles to a tee and Anakin's become even more arrogant by that point.

he has the higher ground man! you should go warch the prequels again.

I'm mostly picking at how silly it is that people are trying to argue the tables turned too quickly between Rey and Ren based on perceptions of their relative power/skills, when it's all the circumstances of an individual duel that matter.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
I'm kinda thinking Kylo isn't quite the shit like many seem to believe. He throws tantrums and wears a mysterious mask and while he obviously CAN fight, I think there's a reason why Rey and Finn were able to stand up to him. He's good, but I think we're giving him maybe too much credit.

Hell, Snoke telling Hux to retrieve Kylo to finish his training suggests that he's not up to par and needs work. I don't find anything about the events that transpired to be unbelievable. I think Kylo is, at least of VII, something of a fraud. For now. And Rey isn't.

Yeah, that is basically the heart of his character. In the very scene where he is unmasked, he loses to Rey in the mind control fight. He's all about intimidation and displays of force (in multiple ways). But when he's unmasked in the literal sense, he also shows who he really is. Rey was terrified of the "creature in a mask". But she's able to him when it's gone and he's exposed. Stripped of intimidation factor he's taken down several pegs.
 
We WILL need a no-bullshit villain though at some point or else... what's the threat?

Rey...?

Nah, Kylo. Kylo is the first villain in a Star Wars movie to take out his master and assume all of his power. That's what I'm hoping for. No more "man behind the man" shit. Kylo takes out his boss, goes crazy with power and a need to reject the light inside him.

Snoke as Palpatine 2.0 isn't interesting, just like Kylo as Vader 2.0 doesn't work. Snoke as the stepping stone to Kylo being twice the monster he thought Vader & Palpatine were? That's interesting, to me.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Nah, Kylo. Kylo is the first villain in a Star Wars movie to take out his master and assume all of his power. That's what I'm hoping for. No more "man behind the man" shit. Kylo takes out his boss, goes crazy with power and a need to reject the light inside him.

Snoke as Palpatine 2.0 isn't interesting, just like Kylo as Vader 2.0 doesn't work. Snoke as the stepping stone to Kylo being twice the monster he thought Vader & Palpatine were? That's interesting, to me.

I think they planted this seed in the film.

Han: "Snoke is using you for your power. When he gets what he wants, he'll destroy you. You know it's true."

I think Kylo does know this on some level - it's all over his face - and will act first. At least I hope to hell he does, for the reasons you outlined.
 
Kylo's obviously extremely powerful. He can't stop a blaster shot mid-air, or mind-control torture someone, or paralyze Rey if he isn't powerful. But he also happens to be a complete fucking mess, which means he's prone to being unfocused and unpredictable. It's what makes him strong, and dangerous, and scary, and weak all at once.

He's definitely attuned, but I mean in terms of like specific abilities such as saber dueling. I'm not sure if bringing Harry Potter into this is the best analogy, but the one thing about the character of Voldemort is that he's a superbly gifted dickhead, but he relies on that rather than extensive knowledge of what he's doing, which is how Harry ended up beating him, not because of dueling ability but Harry was smarter and knew more about what they were dealing with.

I think Kylo is a sort of Tom Riddle, in that he's very attuned but is perhaps too mentally reckless to have a fuller understanding. Yeah he can freeze a laser blast in midair, but that's showy.
 

Sephzilla

Member
Nah, Kylo. Kylo is the first villain in a Star Wars movie to take out his master and assume all of his power. That's what I'm hoping for. No more "man behind the man" shit. Kylo takes out his boss, goes crazy with power and a need to reject the light inside him.

Snoke as Palpatine 2.0 isn't interesting, just like Kylo as Vader 2.0 doesn't work. Snoke as the stepping stone to Kylo being twice the monster he thought Vader & Palpatine were? That's interesting, to me.

Kylo almost certainly knows that Vader killed Palpatine at one point. Maybe he also knows that Vader sort of proposed the idea of destroying Palpatine together to Luke.

Vader: Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny! Join me, and together, we can rule the galaxy as father and son! Come with me. It is the only way.

It's entirely possible that Kylo Ren thinks that, in order to truly become and succeed Vader, he needs to destroy his master and take his place (the later is what Vader failed to do). I really like the idea of Kylo Ren offing Snoke and going full power crazy trying to become Super Vader.
 
Nah, Kylo. Kylo is the first villain in a Star Wars movie to take out his master and assume all of his power. That's what I'm hoping for. No more "man behind the man" shit. Kylo takes out his boss, goes crazy with power and a need to reject the light inside him.

Snoke as Palpatine 2.0 isn't interesting, just like Kylo as Vader 2.0 doesn't work. Snoke as the stepping stone to Kylo being twice the monster he thought Vader & Palpatine were? That's interesting, to me.

This is what I'm hoping for. I don't think they should make him Anakin 2.0, just go very... fuck it, with it. I'm just recalling moments from TFA and Kylo is very scared and vulnerable even. There's definitely more to him, but they can do this in a way where he's not just Anakin again, but still evil as hell.
 
I think they planted this seed in the film.

Han: "Snoke is using you for your power. When he gets what he wants, he'll destroy you. You know it's true."

I think Kylo does know this on some level - it's all over his face - and will act first. At least I hope to hell he does, for the reasons you outlined.

I like that idea a lot. I like that he's unawares teaching people how to be stronger in the force all the time. Rey learns shit from him going in her mind - what if Snoke is learning from his pupil just as much (if not more) than Kylo's learning from him?

I think "the Force Awakens" isn't just referring to Rey, but to the other two main characters, Finn and Kylo (also, this is the first trilogy where the main trio isn't all heroes - even though Vader falls at the end, 2 & 2/3rds movies were centered on Anakin, Ben, and Padme), and Finn's awakening may be less spiritual and more moral, but I think Kylo's awakening might possibly be to how used he's been, and how much he doesn't know compared to what he thought he knew.

I'm just hoping that pushes him even further past the point of no return than he already is. I wanna see how far Leia's kid can really take that.

I also wanna see how/what he thinks of his mom. That's almost completely untouched in this movie. He's got huge daddy issues, but his Mom is completely unremarked upon. She's not exactly well known for her even temper, after all.
 

Interfectum

Member
I fully expect Kylo to take out Snoke and become the mega-villain of the trilogy. The first one got the light side conflict out of the way. All that's left now is his rapid ascension to the dark side, which would include offing Snoke.
 
I fully expect Kylo to take out Snoke and become the mega-villain of the trilogy. The first one got the light side conflict out of the way. All that's left now is his rapid ascension to the dark side, which would include offing Snoke.

I think they planted this seed in the film.

Han: "Snoke is using you for your power. When he gets what he wants, he'll destroy you. You know it's true."

I think Kylo does know this on some level - it's all over his face - and will act first. At least I hope to hell he does, for the reasons you outlined.

Man these are fantastic observations. Kylo's "I will finish what you started" may be more like "I will finish what you started assuming you weren't a giant pussy." It'd be cool if Kylo was actually a Vader fan and not an Anakin fan. He respects the masked version of Anakin and not the person. Like the idea of Vader which is why he has the mask and doesn't care about the person underneath specifically.

It could also be a commentary on how fans wanted this type of asshole over the type of asshole Lucas went with Anakin but that's another conversation that would require significant amounts of alcohol to partake in.
 

Tesseract

Banned
Wow that's a lot to respond too. Maybe tomorrow folks. I've got an Agent Carter to watch with my wife before bed.

giphy.gif
 

Tesseract

Banned
I fully expect Kylo to take out Snoke and become the mega-villain of the trilogy. The first one got the light side conflict out of the way. All that's left now is his rapid ascension to the dark side, which would include offing Snoke.

avatar bet, episode 8 sees rey move toward the dark side
 

MMarston

Was getting caught part of your plan?
One thin I could see Kylo doing is pulling a [Metal Geat Solid 4 spoiler]
Liquid Ocelot.

He eventually wants to right the Galaxy and bring balance to both the dark and light side of the Force in secret, but he wants to do it in the most aggressive and inhuman way possible. E.g decimating both the Order and the Republic and creating a new order from the ground up. HIS idea of an ideal galaxy.

Thus, it makes for an interesting and unique motivation to off Snoke, but still makes him a very great threat in general.
 

LosDaddie

Banned
By the next movie, Rey will be Luke's master.

That's pretty much the next step, right? Luke will die next movie but not before telling her that he couldn't teach her more anyway. Something along those lines.


Be right back I'll have to tell my wife she is either stupid or sexist. Oh come on.

It's not my biggest complaint with the film; Rey is my favourite character by far in TFA. Its fairly minor actually, but it just annoys me to see the comparisons with Luke when quantitatively and qualitatively in the force she handily out classes him by the end of the film.

I think the character would have been better served by a slower progression and by losing the light sabre duel with Kylo, then being saved by that handy crevasse. It would have given her somewhere to go in the next film.

Because it's always easier to simply dismiss someone as sexist rather than acknowledge their opinion on the film.


Rey isn't a Force savant, she has heard the stories and tales. She knows what it's suppose to be able to do. Hell even Luke once told to "use the force" is able to do some amazing things without being trained. He blew up the Death Star using it and not his on board target system. He was hardly trained.

Use the Force and you can accomplish great things. We've seen this before.

I disagree. Rey is clearly able to harness the Force with little-to-no struggle. She's easily on Anakin's level.
 
avatar bet, episode 8 sees rey move toward the dark side

She's too nice. Had they written a darker side to her personality in VII, I might be inclined to go with this as a possibility, but she showed no signs of not just being a super down to earth and kind person. I wouldn't make that avatar bet. At worst she'll become deeply flawed through events and choices spurred by her newfound powers, but I don't think she'll go in that direction.

I made posts about this thought recently but the more I think about her character the less I think it's going in that direction.
 
That's pretty much the next step, right? Luke will die next movie but not before telling her that he couldn't teach her more anyway. Something along those lines.




Because it's always easier to simply dismiss someone as sexist rather than acknowledge their opinion on the film.




I disagree. Rey is clearly able to harness the Force with little-to-no struggle. She's easily on Anakin's level.
Who's calling who sexist?
 
I don't want to push the theories too hard one way or another. Saying that Kylo will certainly kill a weak Snoke does have precedent, but there's still enough unrevealed information that might pull the story in another direction that would still be satisfactory.

Fixation on certain ideas is how you get theories like "Rey is a Solo", "Finn is force-sensitive" or "Snoke is Plagueis for sure", then people become confused when they don't exactly happen that way.
 
I like the Rey being a Kenobi theory. I also expect Snoke to get offed possibly in Ep 8. It's the way of the Sith. Yet, aren't Snoke and Ren supposedly not Sith?
 
Err, if she's powerful with the force, she could have been using it her entire life and not knowing it. She was dropped off on Jakku at like the age of 5 and seemingly living on her own. Subconsciously she's probably been accessing parts of the force her entire life. Once someone told her it was an actual thing she was able to get a better handle on shit she already kinda knew.

Ohhh I love this idea. She was training unconsciously so now that she's aware she's just that much better at it.
 
Kylo's obviously extremely powerful. He can't stop a blaster shot mid-air, or mind-control torture someone, or paralyze Rey if he isn't powerful. But he also happens to be a complete fucking mess, which means he's prone to being unfocused and unpredictable. It's what makes him strong, and dangerous, and scary, and weak all at once.

I'm conflicted on this point. Everything you've said doesn't necessarily point to him being 'extremely powerful'. This film is interesting in that it expands the force beyond what we've seen in previous films, and we don't have a gauge as to how powerful this actually makes him relative to others. The context of when we see his abilities play an extremely important role in perception one attains of his ability. It opens with the dramatic demonstration of stopping the blaster shot. The mind-control torture on Poe is against somebody who isn't force-sensitive (or we have no reason to believe that he's force-sensitive currently). He freezes Rey and knocks her out before she's become accepting of her utilisation of the force and while she's actively resisting it. As soon as Rey begins to resist him, he isn't strong enough to overpower her in spite of the training he has had and the apparent lack of training (or lacking the awareness of any training) she has had. Later, he fails to stop Chewie's blaster bolt and is caught off guard. I think he's certainly competent in the force, and above average in his ability, but at this stage I think it's easier to argue that he isn't very powerful (capable, no doubt, not certainly not extremely powerful) due to his inability to overpower Rey and his insecurity and emotional instability further hamper him greatly.

Ren's competency is something that, I feel, really requires future material to properly assess, but his competency in The Force Awakens may be difficult to ascertain given that he is undergoing additional training. If you assume he's extremely powerful currently, I think this creates an issue in regards to how Rey was able to resist his interrogation and infiltrate his mind in that it requires Rey (who no doubt will be extremely strong in the force) to overcome a far higher barrier than if he's really not as powerful as he tries to claim and wishes to believe. If you assume he's extremely powerful currently, it does add an interesting aspect to his driving insecurity, that he is terrified he won't be powerful enough to 'live upto' Vader when in fact he actually is (merely in relation to a 'potential' level) and his insecurity is unfounded but furthered by Rey's potential superiority.

Personally, I don't think it ultimately matters whether he is 'just powerful' or 'extremely powerful' and trying to estimate his 'power level' as I don't think it greatly matter or there's enough information to properly assess where he's at (but I do think that if made to choose I would say that I am of the opinion that he's not as powerful as he tries to portray; I definitely was the first time I saw the film, less so the second), I do like the idea of Ren successfully dispatching Snoke after completing his final training being driven by his knowledge that Snoke is merely using him (and as a thought, him then taking on an apprentice [Rey? Unlikely however], but I'm not sure how they'll operate with this and may not go down this route).

EDIT: Also, even beyond all that, we really don't know what way they'll go with the force. They may forego the idea that people are limited or capped by a potential 'power limit' with the force, and that the only separating factor between people may be how quickly they can pick things up due to their willingness to let the force guide them.

She's too nice. Had they written a darker side to her personality in VII, I might be inclined to go with this as a possibility, but she showed no signs of not just being a super down to earth and kind person. I wouldn't make that avatar bet. At worst she'll become deeply flawed through events and choices spurred by her newfound powers, but I don't think she'll go in that direction.

I made posts about this thought recently but the more I think about her character the less I think it's going in that direction.
She's definitely feeding off anger in the final fight of the movie and draws from it while utilising the force, but I do agree that she probably will not become a villain, and I'm hesitant to believe her primary struggle will be with the dark side, mainly because of it being something repetitive (cue "it's poetry"), even if possible.
 
He's one of only like three dudes who has blown up a Death Star before and he's still just some low ranking starfighter. It sort of seems like humans and Ackbars make up the ranking officers so I sort of wonder if it's a race thing.
 
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