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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

Arthea

Member
I'd eat it!

Also I love Kylo Ren's leitmotif but it seriously reminds me of something from Pokémon. Like, I seriously think I remember part of Team Rocket's music being extremely similar, but not as slow or ominous.

I actually thought that it must be pretty miserable life to eat that stuff every day, day after day, year after year, no pizza, no chicken, no beer, no ice cream, just imagine that ! no icecream on the desert planet! stuff of nightmares


Novelization, which everyone dismisses, so feel free to dismiss it :D

maybe I should read it, it gets mentioned way too often.
 

Cth

Member
Where is that conveyed? Please don't mention facial expressions.

Novelization, which everyone dismisses, so feel free to dismiss it :D

“It is you,” Ren murmured.

His words unsettled her: Not for the first time, he seemed to know more about her than she did about herself. But she had no time to ponder his comment, nor was she inclined to do so anyway; she was too consumed with rage. Holding the haft of the lightsaber in both hands, she ignited the beam— and charged.

[..]

Though Ren was bigger and stronger than Rey, their struggle had nothing to do with physical size. What she lacked in mass, she made up for in ferocity.

For a while she actually drove him backward, until he regained his self-assurance and in turn pressed her. The fight continued to shift back and forth; first he gained the advantage, then an enraged Rey took it back.

There was a vast rumbling, as of a continent sighing, and a gigantic chunk of forest behind Rey simply collapsed downward, leaving her fighting on the edge of a cliff so high that the newly formed surface below could not be seen through the rising cloud of dust.

Ren held his lightsaber, poised to strike. “I could kill you right now. But there is another way.”

Breathing hard, Rey looked up in disgust at the man looming above her. “You’re a monster.”

“No. You need a teacher.” He was beseeching and insistent all at once. “I can show you the ways of the Force!”

Slowly she shook her head. “The Force?” That was what this was about? Instead of moving to defend herself, Rey closed her eyes. Ren hesitated, confused by her actions.

A long moment passed, in which Ren sensed a change in the air, a change in her. Then she opened her eyes and attacked, viciously, in a way she didn’t know she was capable of, striking again and again as Ren was slowly driven back. The flaring energy from the interacting lightsabers was more pronounced than ever in the flurry of her attack. And—Ren went down.

He was up again in an instant, but not in time to fully deflect a following blow from Rey’s weapon.

He succeeded in blocking it, but he still took the full force of the strike against the haft of his own lightsaber. The weapon went flying into the snow. Unarmed, he raised a hand and utilized the Force to fend off one slashing blow after another, until finally her fury penetrated his remaining defenses.

Taking a glancing blow to the head and chest, he went down, a prominent burn slashed across his face. Weakened, he reached out toward his lightsaber, trying to draw it to him.

One downward cut, she saw. One quick, final strike, and she could kill him. The landing lights of a shuttle appeared in the distance, coming over the trees in her direction. She had to make a decision, now.

Kill him, a voice inside her head said. It was amorphous, unidentifiable, raw. Pure vengeful emotion. So easy, she told herself. So quick.

She recoiled from it. From the dark side.
 
The more I think about it the more I feel my favorite han moment is when he gets pissed at Finn for lying about coming down to starkiller base.

Having Han become a smuggler again was a choice i think that worked for him, since people often revert after a tragedy. However his reaction also showed he hasn't fully reverted. That he still possessed his sense of responsibility he gained in the ot.

I dunno, vc something about that moment really stupid out
 
Where is that conveyed? Please don't mention facial expressions.

Why shouldn't somebody mention facial expressions when film is inherently a visual medium? Her strikes and stance in that final stage, and the camera angle, also indicate her being angry and striking at him in anger, as they are very aggressive (the overhead strike down towards Kylo), and the slow walk towards him, saber extended, with the camera following her from behind and looking down on him as he lies on the ground and is inching away (before the ground separates and saves him) also suggest her lethal intent in that moment.
 
Why shouldn't somebody mention facial expressions when film is inherently a visual medium? Her strikes and stance in that final stage, and the camera angle, also indicate her being angry and striking at him in anger, as they are very aggressive (the overhead strike down towards Kylo), and the slow walk towards him, saber extended, with the camera following her from behind and looking down on him as he lies on the ground and is inching away (before the ground separates and saves him) also suggest her lethal intent in that moment.

So she will attack or defend herself smiling? Or does a blank face count?

So all kendo warriors who start striking from overhead stances are angry?
 
Where is that conveyed? Please don't mention facial expressions.

It's in her facial expressions.


And it's in the script (which I hold above the novelization)

Ren gets up again but she HITS HIS SABER'S HILT -- HIS BLADE GOES FLYING OFF, TUMBLING INTO THE SNOW -- and she SLASHES AGAIN AND AGAIN AND HITS KYLO REN SQUARE IN THE HEAD AND CHEST. HE GOES DOWN, SUDDENLY A FEARFUL MAN, A LARGE BURN SCAR SLASHED ACROSS HIS FACE! He still reaches for his saber.

And she could kill him -- right now, with ONE VICIOUS STRIKE!

But she stops. Realizing she stands on a greater edge than even the cliff -- the edge of the dark side. The earth SHAKES. The earth splits. A gully forms.
 

-griffy-

Banned
NSIAP

'Awards Chatter' Podcast — J.J. Abrams ('Star Wars: The Force Awakens') (THR)



Some other good quotes from Abrams there. Didn't listen to the podcast, though.

I agree with Abrams there. The more I've thought of the film the more I've come to realize that the basic "It's a copy of ANH" line is really just a sound bite being repeated, and it's kind of bullshit at that. The movie obviously borrows plot beats from ANH (and ESB and ROTJ), but the actual story, not the moment to moment plot of this happens than this happens which causes this to happen, is entirely new. And many of the borrowed beats are tweaked in ways that they aren't even simple repeats anyways.

The actual story the characters go through, and the arcs they go through, are new to Star Wars. We've never had a character like Finn, or a villain like Kylo. Rey goes through a different arc than Luke did in ANH. She starts from a similar physical location, but a very different state of mind, and she has different desires than Luke did. Luke's story in ANH is essentially him getting what he dreamed of. Rey doesn't want what the story pushes her towards, and her journey is about grappling with that before ultimately letting go of her past and accepting her destiny.

Where is that conveyed? Please don't mention facial expressions.

Here, I'll just quote my post from the previous page:
When it goes into slow motion and Kylo scrambles onto the ground, and you essentially have this shot:
tumblr_lojwzg94aa1qckmajo1_1280.gif


Only the roles are reversed, and the tired, beaten Batman is Kylo, and Rey is the one intimidatingly approaching him. And then she attacks him when he's down, disarming and disfiguring him. Who knows what she would have done if the chasm hadn't separated them at that moment. I've said this before, but I almost read that as the will of the Force itself intervening, going "Woah now, this is nuts. We better separate these two before shit goes south." It doesn't mean Rey is evil or is straight up going to the dark side any more than it meant Luke was evil in ESB or when he briefly succumbed in ROTJ, though. It's just kind of how the Force works, and is evidence that Rey needs training to get that stuff under control and understand exactly how she should harness her powers.
 

-griffy-

Banned
Ok so it says, "the edge of the dark side." The other poster said she was actually channeling the darkside. If you're on the edge, you're not in it.

It's not a binary thing. Luke channeled the dark side in ROTJ when Vader goaded him by bringing up Leia. He got super aggressive and dominated Vader, then when he realized what he was doing he threw his saber away and refused to kill Vader.
 
But what is full strength?

Even if he hadn't taken a gut shot, he'd be toast.

Rey was channeling more dark side than Kylo was and was getting angrier by the moment, while he was becoming increasingly out of touch.

Now, if he hadn't killed Han and realized it didn't turn him into Vader, then you'd have a point. But it depends on what you mean by full strength.

Not unencumbered by being shot and just killing his father. That is, the state he was in most of the film.

If Ren hadn't been at a disadvantage, he would've won.
 

CorrisD

badchoiceboobies
Snoke couldn't have been alive during the clone wars....what about the only 2 sith at a time rule?

I don't believe we know what he is yet, we know he is a force user and that Kylo isn't the only apprentice he has trained. They have mentioned multiple times that Snoke is a new character and that he isn't a Sith, which we obviously wont know the truth of for a few more films, but him being a Sith hasn't been mentioned and is just assumed by people just because he's a bad guy.

I believe since they threw away the expanded universe, we haven't had any media that predates The Phantom Menace besides stories from the Clone Wars about previous events. The Sith had always been the nemesis of the Jedi as that is where they originated, they kept themselves a secret for a thousand years before the events of TPM so as not to be wiped out again until they were ready. It is perfectly possible that there were other factions of darkside users and that Snoke is part of a different order.

We have The Knights of Ren which we still don't know much about, who seemingly like the Sith carry the Ren title with a new name, it is possible Snoke has a "Ren" name too. So it is likely whatever order Snoke is a part of it is plausible that Ren comes from the same origin.
 

MutFox

Banned
Hope in the next movie, Captain Phasma doesn't suck. (If she's isn't dead)
I really thought she wasn't gonna turn off the shields so easily.
 
So she will attack or defend herself smiling? Or does a blank face count?

Her facial expressions are aggressive and clearly convey the anger she's feeling in the scene. No, she shouldn't be smiling, but there's a clear difference between being calm and in-control, and the aggressive and angry manner in which she was acting, the continuous pressing forward with intent to kill, and the aggressive downward strikes exactly as Luke did when he brushed against the Dark Side all pretty blatantly indicate that she's not acting as somebody completely in control of their emotional state is, or somebody who's intending on being merciful or merely disarming her opponent. He facial expressions are shown in a number of shots, and it's a clear change from the panic that she displayed before.

Her anger is conveyed extremely reminiscent of how it was when Luke is channelling the Dark Side in Return of the Jedi (https://youtu.be/_RFYoZ7H67A?t=192)

EDIT: And furthermore, why wouldn't she? She hasn't had training in The Force, she hasn't been warned to avoid anger, use restraint, or to be merciful, and she's just seen somebody who she viewed as a father figure, and her friend (who she has no idea is still alive) murdered by the person she's attacking. What reason has she not to be angry?
 
it wasn't? that's defo what I and fam. took away from the finale :eek:

It was the afterlife but it wasn't like they all died right away, it was a place they met that was kind of out of time. Everyone lived their respective lives after the island. Some dying right away, some hundreds of years later but in the end no matter what life they had it was never as close or as meaningful as what they had on the island. It's poetic that despite always trying to escape while they were there in the end the island and the relationships they made their defined their lives and was the best times so after parting ways and living their lives , in death they all come back together and stay together forever.
 

Cth

Member
Not unencumbered by being shot and just killing his father. That is, the state he was in most of the film.

If Ren hadn't been at a disadvantage, he would've won.

Ok, then yeah, he'd have the upper hand.

The minute he lost doubt, IMO, it all went downhill for him.
 
Her facial expressions are aggressive and clearly convey the anger she's feeling in the scene. No, she shouldn't be smiling, but there's a clear difference between being calm and in-control, and the aggressive and angry manner in which she was acting, the continuous pressing forward with intent to kill, and the aggressive downward strikes exactly as Luke did when he brushed against the Dark Side all pretty blatantly indicate that she's not acting as somebody completely in control of their emotional state is, or somebody who's intending on being merciful or merely disarming her opponent. He facial expressions are shown in a number of shots, and it's a clear change from the panic that she displayed before.

Her anger is conveyed extremely reminiscent of how it was when Luke is channelling the Dark Side in Return of the Jedi (https://youtu.be/_RFYoZ7H67A?t=192)

EDIT: And furthermore, why wouldn't she? She hasn't had training in The Force, she hasn't been warned to avoid anger, use restraint, or to be merciful, and she's just seen somebody who she viewed as a father figure, and her friend (who she has no idea is still alive) murdered by the person she's attacking. What reason has she not to be angry?

She had a chance to finish him, but she didn't.
 

BTM

Member
NSIAP

'Awards Chatter' Podcast — J.J. Abrams ('Star Wars: The Force Awakens') (THR)

Some other good quotes from Abrams there. Didn't listen to the podcast, though.

I am 100% on board with what Abrams says there. People raking over TFA with statements like "it's just ANH rehash" just confuse me. Sure, the broad strokes of TFA's plot with starkiller base are similar to the OT, but that's not really the focus of the movie. It's about the new (and old) characters and how they interact with each other. Like -griffy- said a few posts above, the actual story between the characters is new, it's just being told with a familiar background.
 
I agree with Abrams there. The more I've thought of the film the more I've come to realize that the basic "It's a copy of ANH" line is really just a sound bite being repeated, and it's kind of bullshit at that. The movie obviously borrows plot beats from ANH (and ESB and ROTJ), but the actual story, not the moment to moment plot of this happens than this happens which causes this to happen, is entirely new. And many of the borrowed beats are tweaked in ways that they aren't even simple repeats anyways.:

I really like how he flipped the "skeleton" metaphor to point out everyone's got the same skeleton. It's about the structure that goes over the top of it, and how well built it is.

But then again, this is an age of media in which you try to compete with your stories, you don't just take them in.
 

Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
image.gif


Sigh :( This is ( for me ) the worst duel.

If I'm being honest, the duel between Obi-Wan and Darth Vader in Episode IV which had the original lightsaber concept and has never been completely fixed in editing is the worst for me by far, but this is a close second. It was kind of weird after Episode I had such a great final duel.


Seriously, of all the things to throw millions at and try to fix, the appearance of the lightsabers in this scene will always be bad, especially when we had a fuller looking one early in the film.


Instead we got weird stuff changed like Han shooting later than Greedo now and moving his head clearly unnaturally to dodge it, and blaster impacts which wouldn't affect the rating censored.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
image.gif


Sigh :( This is ( for me ) the worst duel.

It's a double whammy of bad. On one hand, it's an absolutely terrible fight that looks like it was choreographed by someone who just chucked a bouncy ball on the floor. The other is the stupidity in giving Yoda a lightsaber at all.
 
Speaking of which, how did you guys like the movie's cinematography and the way it was shot?

I liked the way the Rey/Ren fight was shot, despite how they're constantly moving around in the fight I found it easy to follow.

edit: Listening to Kevin Smith talking about the film and I agree with a lot of what he's saying. There's some damn good original scenes in this film. Ren stopping the laser blast with the force and it hovering in the air was amazing, as well as it resuming it's trajectory and hitting a tower when he left. Also the tie fighter escape sequence was probably my favorite scene in the film.
 
Speaking of which, how did you guys like the movie's cinematography and the way it was shot?

I liked the way the Rey/Ren fight was shot, despite how they're constantly moving around in the fight I found it easy to follow.

Cinematography was excellent, right up there with Empire for best shot Star Wars film. I really liked the homage to the return of the jedi duel dolly shot for the lightsaber fight in this one.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
Speaking of which, how did you guys like the movie's cinematography and the way it was shot?

I liked the way the Rey/Ren fight was shot, despite how they're constantly moving around in the fight I found it easy to follow.

I liked the fight a lot. It felt like a real fight and not a dance routine. Swings had weight to them, and it felt like the two were really trying to hurt each other. I think they made excellent use of the terrain to enhance the fight.

Only thing I hope they never do again is slow-mo shots.
 
I liked the fight a lot. It felt like a real fight and not a dance routine. Swings had weight to them, and it felt like the two were really trying to hurt each other. I think they made excellent use of the terrain to enhance the fight.

Only thing I hope they never do again is slow-mo shots.

yeaahhh that looked awkward. Was that the first time SW used slow motion?
 
Wait I forgot, was the slow mo scene when Finn fell after getting struck in the back?

Didn't ESB have a slow mo scene when Luke was on Dagobah when he had the vision of Vader?
 

Cth

Member
yeaahhh that looked awkward. Was that the first time SW used slow motion?

Also, a flashback scene, right?

Wait I forgot, was the slow mo scene when Finn fell after getting struck in the back?

Didn't ESB have a slow mo scene when Luke was on Dagobah when he had the vision of Vader?

Good catch.

And I'd say the Slow Mo spot was when she let the Force take over. Did it get slow mo when Kylo was knocked down and scrambling? I don't remember.
 
I liked the fight a lot. It felt like a real fight and not a dance routine. Swings had weight to them, and it felt like the two were really trying to hurt each other. I think they made excellent use of the terrain to enhance the fight.

Only thing I hope they never do again is slow-mo shots.

I pray to God that helicopter shot from the ending was an anomaly going forward, woof.

I haven't seen a helicopter shot that out of place in a fantasy adventure movie since that one in The Two Towers where Theoden and Aragaon debate war tactics.
 

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
It's a double whammy of bad. On one hand, it's an absolutely terrible fight that looks like it was choreographed by someone who just chucked a bouncy ball on the floor. The other is the stupidity in giving Yoda a lightsaber at all.
it hurts me so much. I recently rewatched Jedi as well as AotC and most of RotS. Yoda and the emperor should SO NOT NEED LIGHTSABERS. Even Luke by the opening of Jedi, is shown using the force casually in a way that almost makes it seem like the lightsaber is a toy or something he just uses for fun in most situations, unless he really needs it to compete (i.e. against Vader), and the emperor easily defeats him without one.

GTlFwUe.gif

3CC9H8x.gif


so good.

Yoda told us all we needed to know. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. The lightsaber is ultimately a weapon you use in a fight. To the emperor in Jedi it would be laughable for him to pick up and wield a lightsaber. He basically mocks Luke for using it (right in front of Vader lol).

At the end of the original trilogy in Jedi, the main attacks by and against the dark lord come down to "lightning from the fingertips" and "throwing a guy over the goddamn railing". I cannot believe RotS contains CGI Ian McDiarmid, the actor of course physically older than the was in the original trilogy, flipping and spinning all over fighting Yoda with a lightsaber. Even though it's a much better choreographed fight than the one with dooku, it should just never have happened. Yoda was given the shaft in the prequels in a lot of ways, though he does have some good moments in Sith.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
Wait I forgot, was the slow mo scene when Finn fell after getting struck in the back?

Didn't ESB have a slow mo scene when Luke was on Dagobah when he had the vision of Vader?

You're right about ESB. Though, I'd say the Slow Mo vision is a bit different, given it's a vision of things, and not supposed to be "the real world".
 
Eh, when the PT was first released, we were all marking out when Yoda whipped out the lightsaber. His quick fighting style took many by surprise.

It was fun. I get the points being made here, though.

I took lightsaber dueling to be a sort of honorable tradition that even some Sith adhered to.
 

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
Eh, when the PT was first released, we were all marking out when Yoda whipped out the lightsaber. His quick fighting style took many by surprise.

It was fun. I get the points being made here, though.
i mean I was one of the people cheering when it happened in the theater as a kid. But I've just sort of grown out of what I liked about it as I grew up. I wish the script didn't put these words in Christopher Lee's mouth:

It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force... but by our skills with a lightsaber

That is so backwards to me for Yoda. Even if the scene had gone the other way around, started out as a lightsaber fight just to have the fanboy moment, but then escalated to using the force, it would be much less bad.
 
i mean I was one of the people cheering when it happened in the theater as a kid. But I've just sort of grown out of what I liked about it as I grew up. I wish the script didn't put these words in Christopher Lee's mouth:



That is so backwards to me for Yoda. Even if the scene had gone the other way around, started out as a lightsaber fight just to have the fanboy moment, but then escalated to using the force, it would be much less bad.

Why?
 
That is so backwards to me for Yoda.

It's kind of backwards, period, because it suggests using a lightsaber effectively is separate from using the force, when the two should be, to use a favored term of the prequels, symbiotic.

It is funny how much of the prequel baggage is getting in the way with TFA's more back-to-basics philosophy of Force usage.
 
It's kind of backwards, period, because it suggests using a lightsaber effectively is separate from using the force, when the two should be, to use a favored term of the prequels, symbiotic.

It is funny how much of the prequel baggage is getting in the way with TFA's more back-to-basics philosophy of Force usage.

I disagree. To say The Force and dueling are symbiotic is to suggest that The Force is a tool with which to attack. And while one can use The Force to attack, that's not a tenet of Jedi Philosophy.

Empire Strikes Back said:
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?

Yoda: You will know when you are calm. At peace. Passive. Mmmm... A Jedi uses The Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

If the Jedi are to hold true to this philosophy then it explains the purpose of a Lightsaber. The Sith belief is one that uses The Force offensively. For aggression and domination. Hell, even the basic Lightsaber dueling style is one of defense.

Now my memory of the Dooku fight is hazy but up until the point where the lightsabers come out, if I'm not mistaken, Dooku uses the Force to attack Yoda while Yoda uses the Force to nullify/defend those attacks. So it would stand to reason that Yoda subscribes to the "Defense, never Attack" ideal not just philosophically but literally when it comes to how he utilizes The Force.
 
I disagree. To say The Force and dueling are symbiotic is to suggest that The Force is a tool with which to attack. And while one can use The Force to attack, that's not a tenet of Jedi Philosophy.

They're symbiotic in that if you're a Jedi, you should be tapping into the Force whenever you bust that thing out. Dooku suggests that "skills with the Force" are somehow different than "Skills with a lightsaber" when your skills with a lightsaber should be (and obviously are, looking at the fights in the prequels) augmented and supported with the Force.

He's basically saying "We can't settle this with the Force... let's use the Force."
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
The lightsaber should have been a tool for defense used back when the Sith were big. It should have been pretty much a symbolic thing in the prequel trilogy. The Sith have been gone for hundreds of years.
 
I'm sure he used the force to help guide his hands to where the blaster bolts would hit him though.
That's probably correct.

Nah. That was the Force.

This "gauntlets of blaster-proof blah-blah" shit was retconned in later by merchandising for lord knows what reason. It's not like it adds to that scene at all, or the storytelling in general.

He blocks lasers with the force, and then pulls the gun to him. And then acts like it's no big deal and sits down to a dinner he can't eat because he's wearing a giant gargoyle mask on his burnt peanut head.

So basically, the only things that are canon are the things you personally like?
 

sphagnum

Banned
I think the purpose of it is more an honor thing, really. Dooku is a master swordsman, a gentleman Sith (if such a thing can exist). He wants to sort it out through an old fashioned duel with his ex-master, and swordfighting is the classy way to do that.

Just one of those Lucas dialogue things.
 
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