Support NeoGAF

[Jest Chillin]

They're symbiotic in that if you're a Jedi, you should be tapping into the Force whenever you bust that thing out. Dooku suggests that "skills with the Force" are somehow different than "Skills with a lightsaber" when your skills with a lightsaber should be (and obviously are, looking at the fights in the prequels) augmented and supported with the Force.

He's basically saying "We can't settle this with the Force... let's use the Force."

I mean, the visual in the scene shows that his meaning is very literal. "This won't be solved by pure force usage, so we'll have to see who's the better duelist." It's not as if the dialogue in the prequels are really subtle.

The lightsaber should have been a tool for defense used back when the Sith were big. It should have been pretty much a symbolic thing in the prequel trilogy. The Sith have been gone for hundreds of years.

Well they're still good for defending against blaster fire. Not every Jedi had metal limbs to use to block that. It also served as a bit of a status symbol. It was a weapon and a badge at the same time. So that those who saw it hanging from the waist of a Jedi knew it was a Jedi they were dealing with and acted accordingly.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

So basically, the only things that are canon are the things you personally like?

That's an interesting way to read it.

I don't care what's canon or not when we're discussing the obviousness of what the film is telling us, visually, in the film itself.

Whether some writers somewhere else want to conjure up some "interesting" reason for why something pretty obvious happened the way it happened, that's fine. Canonicity is more or less boring in general really. It's a fictional universe, and I understand that for the purposes of discussions with superfans, I have to be aware of what "counts" in that make-believe world more than the other imaginary stuff in that make-believe world, but while discussing the movies, and what the movies are doing, I'm not going to take into account something like that when the film is very obviously saying something different.

I wouldn't be surprised if that entire line of thought regarding his gloves was retconned into existence because some nerd somewhere started complaining about how "unrealistic" it was that a cyborg man could knock a blaster shot away with his hands, that it would have somehow damaged internal circuitry or some shit, so they rabblefrabbled some reason as to why it could have happened to address said concern.

I've pretty consistently argued against using books to argue points raised by the films themselves in this thread actually, even when the information from those books actually goes more to my argument. Because canon or not, trying to explain a film's flaw by suggesting you have to read a book to understand it basically means the film didn't do its job as a film.

In Empire Strikes Back there is nothing even hinting at the idea he's got blaster-proof gloves on, and nothing to be gained from it as opposed to going with the most obvious explanation, which is that he used the Force.

Unless you wanna suggest Han was shooting at his hands on purpose.

I mean, the visual in the scene shows that his meaning is very literal. "This won't be solved by pure force usage, so we'll have to see who's the better duelist." It's not as if the dialogue in the prequels are really subtle.

I know his meaning is literal - that's part of why it doesn't work. If I take him literally, it clashes with the philosophy of how the force is used by its wielders as shown in every previous movie.

It's still Force usage.

it's just a poorly thought out line of dialog intended to make you go "OH SHIT YODA'S GONNA FIGHT 'IM" and as that, on first view, it works. But it's dumb as rocks.

 

[inm8num2]

Review from the Belated Media dude ("what if __ were good" series)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YnKOptGhPk

 

[Einchy]

Review from the Belated Media dude ("what if __ were good" series)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YnKOptGhPk

That guy's "What if" series is truly awful.

He had some decent ideas with Episode I but then II and III should have just been titled, "How to make these movies even worse".

 

[Jest Chillin]

I know his meaning is literal - that's part of why it doesn't work. If I take him literally, it clashes with the philosophy of how the force is used by its wielders as shown in every previous movie.

It's still Force usage.

it's just a poorly thought out line of dialog intended to make you go "OH SHIT YODA'S GONNA FIGHT 'IM" and as that, on first view, it works. But it's dumb as rocks.

As it's shown in every previous movie? The OT doesn't show a saber vs saber fight as using or particularly needing to use The Force. They play out as basic sword fights in most instances.

And once Lucas starts working on the PT, it's pretty clear that he wants to adjust Lightsaber usage so that it doesn't require The Force but can be augmented by it.

 

[Nostremitus]

That's an interesting way to read it.

I don't care what's canon or not when we're discussing the obviousness of what the film is telling us, visually, in the film itself.

Whether some writers somewhere else want to conjure up some "interesting" reason for why something pretty obvious happened the way it happened, that's fine. Canonicity is more or less boring in general really. It's a fictional universe, and I understand that for the purposes of discussions with superfans, I have to be aware of what "counts" in that make-believe world more than the other imaginary stuff in that make-believe world, but while discussing the movies, and what the movies are doing, I'm not going to take into account something like that when the film is very obviously saying something different.

I wouldn't be surprised if that entire line of thought regarding his gloves was retconned into existence because some nerd somewhere started complaining about how "unrealistic" it was that a cyborg man could knock a blaster shot away with his hands, that it would have somehow damaged internal circuitry or some shit, so they rabblefrabbled some reason as to why it could have happened to address said concern.

I've pretty consistently argued against using books to argue points raised by the films themselves in this thread actually, even when the information from those books actually goes more to my argument. Because canon or not, trying to explain a film's flaw by suggesting you have to read a book to understand it basically means the film didn't do its job as a film.

In Empire Strikes Back there is nothing even hinting at the idea he's got blaster-proof gloves on, and nothing to be gained from it as opposed to going with the most obvious explanation, which is that he used the Force.

Unless you wanna suggest Han was shooting at his hands on purpose.



I know his meaning is literal - that's part of why it doesn't work. If I take him literally, it clashes with the philosophy of how the force is used by its wielders as shown in every previous movie.

It's still Force usage.

it's just a poorly thought out line of dialog intended to make you go "OH SHIT YODA'S GONNA FIGHT 'IM" and as that, on first view, it works. But it's dumb as rocks.

So a cyborg blocking blaster shots with armored robotic arms is less realistic than magic? The thing that hinted that it wasn't the force that blocked the bolts was the fact that the dude is in an armored robotic suit. I never said Vader didn't use the force to assist his reflexes, btw. I was talking about stopping the actual shots using the force vs having armored gloves. I was commenting on Ren's use of the force to freeze a blaster shot vs Vader blocking them. They both used their reflexes to react to being shot at extremely quickly, but that's where Vader's force use stopped. Ren not only reacted using force assisted reflexes, but also used the force to hold the bolt in place mid-air. That's something Vader never did. He never did anything remotely similar to it. The closest thing to this in the moves was Yoda catching and holding lightning, but as far as I know he wasn't creating a stasis field to hold it in place.

You literally just told me that you don't think canon matters, and then told me why your personal opinion of what should be canon matters more.

 

[Boke1879]

Just watched ESB again today. HOLY SHIT it's such a damn good movie. I know it's obvious but man the differences between him and Ren are so apparent.

Like Vader gets pissed but handles it in a cool, and methodical way.

Literally at the end of Empire. When the Falcon blasts into hyperdrive mode. He looks out the window, does a double take, and walks away. While he's walking away he's look right in the direction of Admiral Piett. instead of killing anyone. He just walks to his chambers.

Vader has mastered the art of fear. But while they fear him, He also commands their respect. Kylo doesn't have that same respect I don't think. Hux always tried to belittle him. Especially in the presence of Snoke.

Which leads me to believe Kylo will kill Snoke and assume the "Supreme Leader" role.

 

[Fourth Storm]

They're symbiotic in that if you're a Jedi, you should be tapping into the Force whenever you bust that thing out. Dooku suggests that "skills with the Force" are somehow different than "Skills with a lightsaber" when your skills with a lightsaber should be (and obviously are, looking at the fights in the prequels) augmented and supported with the Force.

He's basically saying "We can't settle this with the Force... let's use the Force."

Dooku contrasts "knowledge" of the Force with lightsaber "skills". I can see both sides of the argument, but insofar as the symbiosis is concerned, the Force permeates all aspects of life for a Jedi. Not just dueling and Force powers. So by saying "knowledge" of the Force, I think Dooku means the battle won't be decided by who knows the stronger Jedi magic power.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

So a cyborg blocking blaster shots with armored robotic arms is less realistic that magic?

I'm saying realism is beside the point in a Star Wars movie, really. So the endeavor to come up with a "realistic" explanation for something that was obviously the Force doesn't make sense from jump. There's no reason for it so far as the film goes. There's probably a reason for it so far as the merchandising/publishing goes, and I'm sure it's a not great one.

The thing that hinted that it wasn't the force that blocked the bolts was the fact that the dude is in an armored robotic suit.

Who happens to be a powerful Jedi who earlier choked someone from probably a couple hundred miles away, and then immediately after blocking the blaster shots sucked the gun from Han's hand into his own.

So there's no real "hint" that he blocked the blaster bolts because he's in a robotic suit at all.

You literally just told me that you don't think canon matters, and then told me why your personal opinion of what should be canon matters more.

No, I told you why I don't consider canonicity of published materials when discussing the specifics of the films. Because it's unnecessary. Unless the book you're using as reference is issued with every copy of the blu-ray sold, or at the box-office of every theater showing the thing, it's not part of the film proper. And even if it WAS, it STILL wouldn't be worthwhile, really, because we're discussing the movie, and it's pluses/minuses as a film.

Let me flip it: What about this outside explanation derived from no filmic evidence appeals to you more than the very obvious one? Why would you choose to roll with the outside information as presented in an officially licensed book over what the film itself is presenting? What's the positives? How does interpreting it that way improve the scene over the default, which is that he simply used the Force?

Dooku contrasts "knowledge" of the Force with lightsaber "skills". I can see both sides of the argument, but insofar as the symbiosis is concerned, the Force permeates all aspects of life for a Jedi. Not just dueling and Force powers. So by saying "knowledge" of the Force, I think Dooku means the battle won't be decided by who knows the stronger Jedi magic power.

Again, I get the line. It's just dumb. I know how it's supposed to make sense. It just does it poorly. Which shouldn't be a surprise as it's in Attack of the Clones.

As it's shown in every previous movie?

Yeah, the force as it's shown to be used in every previous movie. "It controls your actions, but it also obeys your commands." "You can feel the Force around you." You use the Force when you fight with a lightsaber. It's literally the first thing Ben teaches Luke. Lucas wrote Dooku's line separating the two for the purpose of getting off a bad-ass oneliner, and it didn't work.

I'm starting to see why a completely separate thread that ostensibly served the exact same purpose as this one was allowed to stay open, I think.

 

[30yearsofhurt]

Does anyone else think that Kylo Ren...

...looks a tiny bit like like Justin Trudeau?

 

[DrForester]

Disney Artist, Brian Kesinger, made some things...

 

[injurai]

those are adorable

 

[MMarston]

Does anyone else think that Kylo Ren...

...looks a tiny bit like like Justin Trudeau?

Just Not Ready

Spoiler

I am so glad i don't have to hear those commercials anymore

 

[Nostremitus]

Let me flip it: What about this outside explanation derived from no filmic evidence appeals to you more than the very obvious one? Why would you choose to roll with the outside information as presented in an officially licensed book over what the film itself is presenting? What's the positives? How does interpreting it that way improve the scene over the default, which is that he simply used the Force?

How is him blocking the bolts with the force the default, though? Nothing in the movies says that. It establishes that he's in an armored robotic suit. The filmic evidence is the armored suit. How does going against the filmic evidence and saying it's the force improve the scene? Obi Wan never blocked shots or lightsabers with his bare hands. Niether he nor Yoda taught Luke to do it either. In fact, the lightsaber is a defensive weapon for that purpose, because otherwise the Jedi wouldn't even need them.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

How is him blocking the bolts with the force the default, though? Nothing in the movies says that.?

Yes, it does. We've seen him telepathically murder a man through the vastness of space from his seat on his Star Destroyer, we also see him telepathically throw a bunch of space junk at Luke with his mind, he pulls Han's gun into his hand - why would you think of all the fantastical shit this guy can do from across distances, that he isn't deflecting blaster bolts with his goddamn hands, but instead trusting in the robotic tennis rackets he's got sewed into his suit, which otherwise looks like it's made entirely of leather and some shiny shit up around the shoulders and helmet area.

You also never answered the question I asked. You just tried to flip it back around on me after I've already explained to you why I think it doesn't improve anything, and why it wouldn't occur to me to reference outside material when I have enough evidence from the film itself. So yeah, I've considered your take, and found it lacking, personally, and explained why I wouldn't (and don't) reference it when discussing the film. I'd already answered the question you just asked me. It's why we're pursuing this line to it's deathly end.

What is it about the idea he's got blaster flubber in his hands that appeals to you over the idea he's just using the Force?

edit: and that weird "Obi Wan never taught him that" line doesn't even apply. Obi-Wan isn't a SITH. Obi-Wan didn't teach Luke to shoot lightning out of his fingertips, either, or force choke people. What Obi-Wan did or didn't do with Luke has nothing to do with what Vader is doing in those films.

 

[ngower]

I did a thing.

 

[Nostremitus]

Yes, it does. We've seen him telepathically murder a man through the vastness of space from his seat on his Star Destroyer, we also see him telepathically throw a bunch of space junk at Luke with his mind, he pulls Han's gun into his hand - why would you think of all the fantastical shit this guy can do from across distances, that he isn't deflecting blaster bolts with his goddamn hands, but instead trusting in the robotic tennis rackets he's got sewed into his suit, which otherwise looks like it's made entirely of leather and some shiny shit up around the shoulders and helmet area.

You also never answered the question I asked. You just tried to flip it back around on me after I've already explained to you why I think it doesn't improve anything, and why it wouldn't occur to me to reference outside material when I have enough evidence from the film itself. So yeah, I've considered your take, and found it lacking, personally, and explained why I wouldn't (and don't) reference it when discussing the film. I'd already answered the question you just asked me. It's why we're pursuing this line to it's deathly end.

What is it about the idea he's got blaster flubber in his hands that appeals to you over the idea he's just using the Force?

It appeals to me because that's what the film sets as what happened.

Obi Wan never blocked shots or lightsabers with his bare hands. Niether he nor Yoda taught Luke to do it either. In fact, the lightsaber is a defensive weapon for that purpose, because otherwise the Jedi wouldn't even need them.

It makes sense that it's the gloves, it always has. It's made sense that the gloves were doing the blocking since I watched the movie as a kid. I'm not pulling the idea from the book, the book just explained why it worked.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

edit: nevermind.

Forget it.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Yeah, the force as it's shown to be used in every previous movie. "It controls your actions, but it also obeys your commands." "You can feel the Force around you." You use the Force when you fight with a lightsaber. It's literally the first thing Ben teaches Luke. Lucas wrote Dooku's line separating the two for the purpose of getting off a bad-ass oneliner, and it didn't work.

I'm starting to see why a completely separate thread that ostensibly served the exact same purpose as this one was allowed to stay open, I think.

You're not talking about The Force as it's shown to be used in every previous movie. You're talking about The Force as it's said to function in dialogue in some of previous movies and then you're extrapolating from THAT dialogue to explain why you're interpreting other things the way you are. At the same time you're saying that dialogue in a future movie is stupid because it conflicts with your interpretations from the previous movie... despite the fact that it's from the same author.

You're most definitely picking and choosing what you like. No books, comics, novellas, games, nothing outside of movies involved... you're choosing which Lucas ideas you consider canon and which you don't placing more weight on your personal interpretation of ideals over straight forward dialogue.

I mean. No one is saying that you have to like it.. but the line doesn't actually conflict with anything other than your personal interpretation.

 

[Nostremitus]

Wait, what? It never even occurred to me that the ESB scene was anything but Vader using the force to block laser shots. What a weird idea.

Edit: Hang on, are you the guy who argued earlier that Ren's helmet was magic?

no... I'm actually saying fewer things should be attributed to magic...

 

[televator]

oh that makes sense.

Of course it does. Everyone knows the force is all about aero and thermo dynamics.

 

[Veelk]

Edit: Hang on, are you the guy who argued earlier that Ren's helmet was magic?

I missed this. What the hell?

 

[Nostremitus]

I missed this. What the hell?

I have no idea, I missed that conversation too.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Kylo's hair is magic, tho

 

[Zabka]

If Vader's palm armor is defecting the blaster shots then you have to make the assumption that his whole body is blaster-proof because having only a heavily armored palm doesn't make any damn sense.

So if his armor is blaster-proof, why does he need to raise his hand to block the shots? Just let them bounce off wherever. You know what does require hand movements to do things? The Force.

 

[Nostremitus]

My bad. I guess my brain drew an automatic association between "Vader's gloves" and "Ren's mask." I was thinking of this guy: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=191171880&postcount=5660

I'm saying that absorbing the blasts weren't magic because the guy is in a robotic suit. The movies explained pretty well that lightsabers were used for that purpose. If force users could just wave away energy based weaponry with their bare hands there would be no point in using a lightsaber.

If Vader's palm armor is defecting the blaster shots then you have to make the assumption that his whole body is blaster-proof because having only a heavily armored palm doesn't make any damn sense.

So if his armor is blaster-proof, why does he need to raise his hand to block the shots? Just let them bounce off wherever. You know what does require hand movements to do things? The Force.

Or the gauntlets were heavily armored because his suit reduces his range of motion. He needed the extra protection for lightsaber fights. He didn't want to lose his hand again.

 

[sphagnum]

Kylvin is pretty cute.

 

[Veelk]

My bad. I guess my brain drew an automatic association between "Vader's gloves" and "Ren's mask." I was thinking of this guy: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=191171880&postcount=5660

Oh well that actually makes sense. Look what happened to dolan when he put it on,

https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/CYNdBrMWEAEsR_V.mp4

Edit: I also want to thank Gaf for presenting the most pointless SW argument I've ever personally witnessed. Did Vader use the force or does he have special armor? Plz, I need to know because if it's one rather than the other, that will change EVERYTHING

 

[OricWindstar]

I have never heard anyone think that Vader was blocking it with a fancy glove.

 

[Nostremitus]

I have never heard anyone think that Vader was blocking it with a fancy glove.

That's the canon explanation.

 

[FyreWulff]

That's the canon explanation.

Not anymore.

also

During the Battle of Endor, Luke Skywalker severed Vader's hand with his lightsaber, and the cybernetic appendage was lost down a shaft in the Emperor's throne room aboard the Death Star. The battle-station was destroyed shortly afterward, and Vader's glove was presumably lost. The glove survived, however, ensnared within a piece of wreckage that landed on the watery world of Dac; it had been pulled through a wormhole created by the explosion of the hypermatter in the Death Star's core.

lol EU

 

[Zabka]

Or the gauntlets were heavily armored because his suit reduces his range of motion. He needed the extra protection for lightsaber fights. He didn't want to lose his hand again.

So why not make the whole suit heavily armored? Budget cuts?

Huh? Does "Darth Vader has magic gloves" come up in one of the books or something?

They say it's a Mandalorian Crushgaunt which allows them to block blaster bolts and catch lightsabers in their hands.

 

[Veelk]

So why not make the whole suit heavily armored? Budget cuts?

You ever try walking around in armor all day? Shit is heavy.

 

[OricWindstar]

That's the canon explanation.

Whether it is or isn't, anyone I've talked to about it has just assumed he was stopping it with the Force.

 

[sphagnum]

I have never heard anyone think that Vader was blocking it with a fancy glove.

There was a whole book about it in the old EU. His glove, which got lost when Luke cut off his hand, was sucked through a wormhole due to the hypermatter generator in the Death Star II collapsing and it landed on Dac. Trioculus, who was an imposter pretending to be Palpatine's real 3-eyed mutant son Triclops, searched for it after he was told a false prophecy by Rajah Ubooki, who was impersonating the Prophet of the Dark Side Kadann, that the one who had it would rule the Empire.

It was dumb.

 

[Aselith]

So why not make the whole suit heavily armored? Budget cuts?

The more weight on the suit, the more power you use when it's moving around. You have to balance the weight of the armor vs functionality. He doesn't need full armor everywhere since he can mostly just flick your blasts back at you.

 

[BocoDragon]

There was a whole book about it in the old EU. His glove, which got lost when Luke cut off his hand, was sucked through a wormhole due to the hypermatter generator in the Death Star II collapsing and it landed on Dac. Trioculus, who was an imposter pretending to be Palpatine's real 3-eyed mutant son Triclops, searched for it after he was told a false prophecy by Rajah Ubooki, who was impersonating the Prophet of the Dark Side Kadann, that the one who had it would rule the Empire.

It was dumb.

Wasn't that de-canonized even in the scope of the EU? I remember those young adult Star Wars novels seemed depreciated even in the 90s....

 

[Vyer]

I don't know if this is terrible or amazing.


At least it's not the same arguments again, I guess.

I'm starting to see why a completely separate thread that ostensibly served the exact same purpose as this one was allowed to stay open, I think.

heh.

 

[donny2112]

It was dumb.

The more I hear about the EU, the more I think it's a good thing that TFA killed all of it. (o_o)

 

[Aselith]

The more I hear about the EU, the more I think it's a good thing that TFA killed all of it. (o_o)

They should republish the good stuff with minor editing to fit the new canon to recanonize it though. Thrawn trilogy is legit stuff.

 

[Veelk]

The more I hear about the EU, the more I think it's a good thing that TFA killed all of it. (o_o)

Oh, don't worry, the new EU will bring in it's own stupid shit.

They already gave Vader evil C3PO and R2D2 that he uses as torture protocol droids.

 

[Aselith]

Oh, don't worry, the new EU will bring in it's own stupid shit.

They already gave Vader evil C3PO and R2D2 that he uses as torture protocol droids.

tbf you want to be reminded of your childhood as a slave when you're torturing. I never feel as in touch with my roots as when I'm torturing people.

 

[Vyer]

Oh, don't worry, the new EU will bring in it's own stupid shit.

They already gave Vader evil C3PO and R2D2 that he uses as torture protocol droids.

tbf you want to be reminded of your childhood as a slave when you're torturing. I never feel as in touch with my roots as when I'm torturing people.

IIRC they don't really cross paths with Vader, they work with someone else, I think.

 

[Zabka]

You ever try walking around in armor all day? Shit is heavy.

The more weight on the suit, the more power you use when it's moving around. You have to balance the weight of the armor vs functionality. He doesn't need full armor everywhere since he can mostly just flick your blasts back at you.

Yeah those leather gloves look real heavy. If those things are blaster-proof then everyone should be running around in rich Mandalorian leather bodysuits.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

If you rewatch the scene, I think the reason most of us assume he's using the force is because he raises his hand the way we typically see force users do to push or pull things (or in Vader's case, strangle people). He raises his right hand to stop the shots, then his left to pull away the gun. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHH6YVHGh90

If he just stood there and tanked the shots, it'd seem more like "oh his armor is absorbing those."

He's literally reflecting the shots away. You see one hit by the doorway. I think that would require force, as no armor has deflected shots like that in the movies.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Other than that weird EU book, I don't even know why special gloves or even The Force would be necessary. Both his hands are Metal under his gloves.

 

[Fourth Storm]

What the fuck am I reading

Yeah, I've been sitting here frozen, attempting to process that Palpatine had a 3-eyed son named Triclops for the last 10 minutes.

 

[televator]

Other than that weird EU book, I don't even know why special gloves or even The Force would be necessary. Both his hands are Metal under his gloves.

Laser guns can still damage metal though.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Laser guns can still damage metal though.

but not leather

 

[Jest Chillin]

Laser guns can still damage metal though.

To be honest.. it depends on the metal. Sometimes blaster fire rips through a metal grating or wall... other times it bounces away harmlessly or just leaves a scorch mark.