ginger ninja
Banned
Who is Rey and who abounded her definitely is related to the battle of Jakku imo.
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Mace Windu's grandson too, yup.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
I don't think they needed to destroy some planets to get that point through. Especially when they could have ignored it and only have Leia's Resistance.
Also, the attack on Maz's castle could have accomplished that turning point for Finn.
My problem with the scene is it had absolutely no backdrop, we don't know the importance of this new republic in the current state of the universe so them getting blown up got absolutely no response from me. a scene that should be important fell completely flat because of lack building and developing of this current world view the new trilogy is set in.
I like how someone pointed out that I had ADD because the fast paced direction of this movie didn't allow for that scene to sink at all, I forgot about it until someone mentioned it in this thread. Some people in this thread have watched the movie like 4 times, today was my first time watching this movie, so forgive me if I don't know every alien's name.
excelsiorlef
Member
It's set up for later.
I mean frankly The Republic Senate was never going to be a player in this trilogy. They could have blown it up in between stories and told you it happened and it's role would have been fulfilled.
The point here is that the destruction of the Hosniam system had two purposes give Finn motivation (and that allows him to make the choice to come back in rather than the attack on the castle dragging him back in) and show just how far The First Order will go to stop Luke's return, to show how terrified they are of him.
It's not designed to be a super emotional moment, the movie is not asking for that. All it's asking is you remember it happened and given how much they repeatedly used exposition to talk about it, if you forgot that's on you.
Like I said man they told you 4 or 5 times both before and after and showed it to you. That you forgot is kinda on you not the movie. Giant exposition, giant Nazi speech, Finn directly saying it as he makes his most important decision in the movie to that point (chosing not to run), they mention it at Leia's base.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
It's clearly a problematic scene. I think those defending it are just trying to maintain their good feels.
I didn't get the impression that that was the turning point for Finn. He knew about it obviously (janitor), which is why he was wanting to run away. The moment he saw Ren boarding his shuttle with the unconscious Rey is the turning point to me. I'm with Error, I have no guage on how relevant this Republic is, or how big the First Order is. But, they were able to build Death Star 3.0 in the 30 some odd years after the Galactic Empire fell, so ROTJ victory is thrown away.
excelsiorlef
Member
Lol.
I'd have loved more on the Senate. I'm only defending it because it's absolutely ridiculous to claim the movie made him forget it happened.
I'm convinced flat out there's a subset of people who just did not pay attention to this movie.
He literally was about to board to ship and leave, he looks up in the sky and sees the explosion from Hosnian Prime, he stops getting ready to board the ship and instead runs to Han to tell him what happened. That's when he chose to stay. If he was still going to tun he'd have packed faster not stopped and run off to join up with Han.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Why not? There's no rule that it had to be like this. We would have never needed to show it or go to it.
I've already said that Finn motivation could be accomplished by different means. Are they terrified of Luke? Yeah, it's made clear they want to find but no reason to as to why. In ANH, we as the audience know why the Empire is chasing R2-D2. For the deathstar plans. It would give The First Order clearer motivations and more compelling story.
I kinda disagree. If it wasn't supposed to be at least a little emotional they wouldn't have shown people on that planet before it was destroyed. It really doesn't how much bearing on the plot. It's seems like it was only there so the could have shown planets being destroyed by it.
Mr_Antimatter
Member
It mentions in the opening crawl that the republic supported the resistance, didn't it?
As for the fallout? I think that will dominate episode 8. The new republic lost a huge chunk of it's fleet, and at least temporarily, it's government. Luke returning may be the only thing that can rally the troops, so to speak.
As for the fallout? I think that will dominate episode 8. The new republic lost a huge chunk of it's fleet, and at least temporarily, it's government. Luke returning may be the only thing that can rally the troops, so to speak.
rokkerkory
Member
There needs to be a 3rd faction so that the Resistance and FO combine forces to defeat them!
I did only just see it for the first time this afternoon so my sequence of events are jumbled. The impact of it though, evidently left little impression.
The fact that this planet sized canon that drains an entire sun even exists in the post-Galactic Empire is what bothers me the most.
Snoke turns into a darkside-deity that can destroy the very fabric of the universe.
There you go.
You're missing the point. The emphasis need not be put on the republic after their death, but rather, before it.
I appreciate that this movie barely even dabbled in the pedantic, mind-numbing bullshit politics of the prequel trilogy. At the same time, if you include an important scene where the republic is destroyed, giving us some time to know them or at least digest who they are, would have been a benefit.
A simple scene showing the senate in action as the exposition was spouted (that the New Order were going to obliterate them) would have likely sufficed, because when they later got blown the fuck up, my brain, having experienced visually who the senate was, would have more easily interpreted the gravity of the scene.
I have a feeling that people that didn't catch the Republic being destroyed aren't necessarily "ADD" but are rather, more visually oriented and/or don't give two shits about the politics of Star Wars.
excelsiorlef
Member
Snoke says repeatedly he's terrified of Luke bringing back the Jedi. He wants to prevent the rise of ta new Jedi Order. He wants to stop Leia from bringing Luke home and he's willing to destroy a planet system to do it. Hell he's willing to destroy any chance he himself has of finding Luke. Everything he does is to stop Leia because he's terrified of the Jedi. This is literally what both of the exposition scenes with Ren, Hux and Snoke are about.
See this is my point. They tell you explicitly and you either ignore it, dismiss or don't hear it and then claim the movie wasn't being clear and needed more exposition.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Some people were confused by the details of the situation. I bet a lot of the audience was confused. I was not confused. I knew what was happening and I simply couldn't believe they weren't addressing the gravity of the situation.
One line is all it would take really. Something like:
"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened."
I'm reading a lot of silly backlash from critics who think their voice will be the loudest now that the initial rush has died down. Since when were the original movies an "innovative, shakespearean opera?" I mean, can you even see me in those nostalgia goggles, 'cause I was born after 1985?
The whole concept behind this new Death Star is ridiculous, even in Star Wars standards the jump in technology from RoTJ to TFA is crazy as the Empire at its peak couldn't build something bigger than the Death Star but this new splinter organization could build a planet sized weapon that can take down multiple planets in one fell swoop, yet this new republic didn't care/know... what kind of world state is this? after everything that happened in the OT it seems like absolutely no amends were made to stop something like that from happening again. Just weird.
LegalEagleMike
Member
Thanos invades,upset that Snoke has let Anakin's lightsaber, which contained one of the infinity stones, get back to Luke Skywalker. Why do you think Guardians of the Galaxy 2 and Episode 8 are coming out in the same month?
excelsiorlef
Member
A) That line is cheese
B) From who? There were no heroic force users in this movie except Luke and Rey. Luke wasn't around and Rey would never say that. Did you want Leia to say it?
I actually agree I'd like to have seen more. If only because I could have watched another hour of that movie if they face it to me.
Doesn't mean the complaint that the movie didn't do enough to make it clear they were attacking the Senate is valid.
Maz says that whoever she's waiting for isn't coming back. Rey is waiting specifically for her parents. That could still mean she was left on the planet by Luke. In fact, when she says "Whoever you were waiting for on Jakku, theyre never coming back. But theres someone who still can", the grammatically correct interpretation is that Luke is coming back, as in Rey has known Luke at some point.
Not that the grammatically correct interpretation is necessarily the right one
Well, the grammatically correct interpretation is actually that Luke wasn't who she was waiting for on Jakku. He'd been missing for some length of time I don't remember (did the movie make this clear?), and that's the context for him coming "back." The implication that Rey knew him at some point isn't necessarily there.
But yeah, I would be surprised if they didn't have some kind of connection. His daughter, a surviving student, something.
Watch the scene again. In his battle with Finn, Ren is relaxed and maybe even toying with Finn. It's when Finn lays one on Ren does Ren decide enough is enough and in literally two seconds, disarms him, punches him and spinal taps him. Done. With Rey, the vast majority of the fight, Rey is on the run. It's not until she taps into the force and becomes one with the force does she then defeat him. That was the point. It was Rey's 'awakening' with the force.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
This point doesn't entirely bother me. None of the origins of the super weapons in Star Wars are explained on screen.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
That beloved line from A New Hope is cheese? Okay
You keep arguing as if these movies are actual events that happened, rather than film productions which can be critiqued and could have been shaped in many alternative directions.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Ok.
Don't really understand how that would be possible or why that's some huge thing but ok.
Also, glad that's all you got out that post.
I honestly would have been fine if no grand politics were involved. We've gone from a convoluted Republic representing democracy that failed. To an oppressive Galactic Dictatorship that failed. To a new oppressive dictatorship? How about the galaxy just fell into warring fragments as a result of two massive failures? You don't even mention it... Actually, I'll just go watch Mad Max for a movie whose world makes more sense.
excelsiorlef
Member
Directly repeating a line from ANH like that would have been cheese.
It could have gone in other directions but you were claiming all that needed to happen was for that line to be said. I think asking you to say who would have said it is hardly treating it like actual events.
The jump in technology is not far fetched at all. Our own history can prove this. In the course of 6 years, technology in WWII progressed rapidly because of the need to gain the upper hand. Wars tend to mobilize technological progress. So I definitely believe in the course of three decades the First Order was able to build Starkiller Base.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
A lot of "beloved" lines from Star Wars are cheese. It's also not well written in that the word "suddenly" is redundant in that sentence.
I mean, if you wanna break the shit down like that, I guess.
No, that's actually a scripting/plotting question being asked there. You need a character to deliver that moment. What character in that location, in that scene, is going to deliver that line?
Besides which, in a film that's getting dinged for over-homage, why would you argue for more direct callbacks?
Again - the film isn't perfect. The back half is way too rushed for no real good reason, and it causes moments that should have punch to lose that impact, thanks to not great editing. But these are valid counters to the complaints.
Actually, here you go: Had the editing not moved so damned quickly that Maz Kanata essentially disappears from the film without any trace once she tells Finn "you've got one!" you could have had Maz, who does have a connection with the force, give you the sad 5 second line-reading that brings into focus just how many people died and what it means.
Discotheque
Banned
the next "star wars story" anthology movie should be a genocide drama about the effects of the starkiller base.....
Not really talking about the origins behind the technology used, I'm going as the standard set in the OT as the technological base for the entire universe. So jumping from moon sized weapons to planet sized weapons is a pretty big jump, considering The First Order is not as a big as the Empire at its peak, yet managed to build something this big that went completely off the radar from the newly formed republic which was formed after the fallout from RoTJ, so you'd think this new republic would be extra careful to ensure nothing like that happens again yet they let themselves get blown up by a similar weapon that's much bigger than the one used before.
I'm overanalyzing stuff, and I should stop because the movie makes less sense the more I think about it.
Maz says that whoever she's waiting for isn't coming back. Rey is waiting specifically for her parents. That could still mean she was left on the planet by Luke. In fact, when she says "Whoever you were waiting for on Jakku, theyre never coming back. But theres someone who still can", the grammatically correct interpretation is that Luke is coming back, as in Rey has known Luke at some point.
Not that the grammatically correct interpretation is necessarily the right one
I must admit that your take on the wording sounds more accurate than mine.
And it wouldn't be the end of the world for me if Luke was responsible for leaving her on Jakku, but I particularly don't like the idea if they explain some of the rough edges away by saying he wiped her memory or something.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Of course I'm not suggesting they use that line from ANH.
The purpose that line accomplished in ANH? They needed some story element to do that same thing.
They needed to address that something happened, it was important, it was bad, and then move on. Good movies do this.
just watched it again and you're right. he does kick finn's ass literally right after he gets hit and rey runs for most of the fight. also forgot that he wanted to see if rey would join him so he wasn't going to kill her right away. thx for clearing that up.
Her vaporizing really stood out on rewatches. Great character and she's just noped out of there unceremoniously.
Unrelated: someone tell me there's a longer version of this, because it's amazing.
I was fairly engaged with the movie's promotion from beginning to end. and have now watched it twice. I still don't understand the connection between the New Republic, the Resistance, and the First Order. Like, is the First Order a rival organization maintaining control over a particular slice of the galaxy? Have the First Order and the New Republic been coexisting for the past ~30 years? What exactly is the Resistance, and why does it seem to be considered an entirely different organization from the New Republic?
It's a confusing dynamic, and I'm skeptical I'll ever get an explanation that makes it suddenly seem well developed.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I'm sure someone will write the book on how the First Order kidnapped a scientist with a theory based on the old Death Star, and how they managed to evade Republic weapons inspectors, and it'll be a big analogue for rogue states developing nuclear weapons.
I've already explained the technological progress using our own history. In addition, the First Order is partly the remnants of the Empire. So they already have the technological know-how of building a Death Star. Further, as said in the film, there are unknown and unexplored areas of the galaxy and in fact, I believe the First Order set up shop in those unknown and unexplained places. So it actually makes sense if you gave it some thought.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
-Leia.
-A resistance general discusses the implications
-Finn hears the news and asks what it means.
-The First Order brass gloat over their victory and what it means for them.
-a thousand other possibilities
An afternoon meeting at Lucasfilm would generate countless ways to deliver that necessary story beat.
Im sure there are people at Lucas right now who think the reaction to that scene needed more impact, and it probably got lost in the shuffle in the editing room.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Everything about the The First Order, New Republic and Resistance is so strange to me.
Like why not keep the type of conflict the same as the OT? All that stuff about not having army and a treaty is so dumb, especially when it's just gets wiped away in the movie.
Like why not keep the type of conflict the same as the OT? All that stuff about not having army and a treaty is so dumb, especially when it's just gets wiped away in the movie.
Because now it is like in the OT, it's the Resistance V the First Order without the Resistance having any backup.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Probably a bizarre compromise between needing the victory in ROTJ to continue to mean something, and the necessity to rehabilitate the brand by making a film that looks like the status quo of the OT.
excelsiorlef
Member
So you don't understand how Luke coming back could lead to him establishing the Jedi Order? And you don't see that as a big deal? Seriously?
You're right they could have kept the Senate except that's not the story they wanted to tell. Taking out the Senate and that fleet also puts Leia and Snoke's camps on more even ground numberwise, taking out most of the Republic fleet means that when in later films the First Order scores military victories against Leia's camp people can't say well that's bullshit the Republic Fleet should have steemrolled them because they are the ruling power and the First Order is relatively small (and it is relatively small, it's just what's left of the Empire).
As for the rest. Yes they could have changed everything if they wanted to. Finn could have never left, or died or never existed. Doesnt stop it from being fact that in this movie Finn sees the destruction of the Republic (a massacre of massacres) and decides enough running. It was a powerful moment for me.
And you're right it doesn't have much baring o the plot. Which I believe I already said as much.
Lool here's the deal I got into this argument because I said it's ridiculous to say the movie didn't make it clear enough that itvwas the Republic getting blown up.
If you got it but didn't like it each to their own. I was explaining why I liked it and why it worked for me but my majot point of contention is the number of people saying that things that were painstakingly stated vis exposition weren't clear enough.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
It was a rhetorical question, Boco. I wasn't actually looking for an answer from you (besides which, I already answered it. Maz is probably the best choice there, better than the ones you just offered, a couple of which actually happened in a later sequence anyway) but pointing out how the question being asked isn't "acting like it's real life" at all.
There are people you're responding to in that post who think that, and basically said as much in the post you're quoting.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
That's what I'm saying. When not keep it the same thing. It's already basically the same.
I mean they didn't beat the Empire at end of ROTJ, did they?
The prequels tried to have some visual symbolism too but obviously it wasn't as well done as in TFA:
"This was the last time they spoke as friends. Anakin is standing in the dark, Obi-wan is standing in the light"
Garbage compared to the Han and Ben confrontation in the 3rd act of TFA. Basic shot, and very simple light dark motif, but it worked. The light fading was a nice touch too.
Lucas really is a shit director.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Asking "who would deliver that line" is being fatalistic about the structure of the film as it appears right now.
The answer is "anyone the filmmakers want".
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