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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

kinoki

Illness is the doctor to whom we pay most heed; to kindness, to knowledge, we make promise only; pain we obey.
A thing I felt was different from this movie compared to the rest is that The Force felt like a character in the movie. It had a will. It was more present. It was an active actor in the events. In the previous movie it felt like a prop. The awakening both in Finn and Rey started events. The Force even took an active interest in Rey. I think people who dismiss Rey as a
Mary Sue
don't even take The Force into account as an acting force upon the character.
 
Uhh no The First Order didn't take over.
This is actually a brand new scenario there is a total power vacuum right now. It's politicsl chaos.

I'd like it if the films focus on a new war deciding the fate of the Galaxy between two equal factions (i.e. New Republic + Resistance vs First Order). Maybe have most of the worlds go neutral and wait for the dust to settle to see who becomes the ruling power in the galaxy to align with (a bit like the Clone Wars). It would be too much of a rehash if TFO becomes Empire 2.0 and the New Rep/Resistance go into hiding and have to fight covertly again.
 
I'd like it if the films focus on a new war deciding the fate of the Galaxy between two equal factions (i.e. New Republic + Resistance vs First Order). Maybe have most of the worlds go neutral and wait for the dust to settle to see who becomes the ruling power in the galaxy to align with (a bit like the Clone Wars). It would be too much of a rehash if TFO becomes Empire 2.0 and the New Rep/Resistance go into hiding and have to fight covertly again.

I'm hoping/guessing that's where they are going with it. Both sides gain allies from different systems other systems stay out of it
 
Garbage compared to the Han and Ben confrontation in the 3rd act of TFA. Basic shot, and very simple light dark motif, but it worked. The light fading was a nice touch too.

Lucas really is a shit director.

I don't think it's garbage at all. I like how it's a little less in-your-face than the Han/Kylo shot.
 

Newline

Member
A thing I felt was different from this movie compared to the rest is that The Force felt like a character in the movie. It had a will. It was more present. It was an active actor in the events. In the previous movie it felt like a prop. The awakening both in Finn and Rey started events. The Force even took an active interest in Rey. I think people who dismiss Rey as a
Mary Sue
don't even take The Force into account as an acting force upon the character.
I agree with you about Rey, but when does the force awaken inside Finn? He's not a force user.
 
I actually agree with you about Rey, but when does the force awaken inside Finn? He's not a force user.

There's some possible hints dropped early but not followed on in this movie.

Both Rey and Finn have the exact same reactions to their experience in the Falcon. Both express the same wonderment at how they achieved what they did.

That was for Rey the first sign of the Force being with her it may in later films turn out to be the same for Finn time will tell on that one.
 

Alx

Member
I agree with you about Rey, but when does the force awaken inside Finn? He's not a force user.

He must have something force-related, since he got Kylo Ren's attention at the very beginning, when he was still a Stormtrooper.
 
I don't think it's garbage at all. I like how it's a little less in-your-face than the Han/Kylo shot.

There are a lot of little bits of symbolism throughout the prequels (especially Sith).

In fact, I'd argue that Lucas got too bogged down in the overly subtle (such as the light/dark contrast in this particular scene) instead of focusing on the simple mechanical components of the movie (I.E. acting, dialogue).

Speaking of the bit in TFA, there's a really gorgeous wide shot right after Finn and Rey enter the room and the beams of light shoot from the door, through the hazy room, and right onto Kylo and Han on the bridge.
 

Newline

Member
There's some possible hints dropped early but not followed on in this movie.

Both Rey and Finn have the exact same reactions to their experience in the Falcon. Both express the same wonderment at how they achieved what they did.

That was for Rey the first sign of the Force being with her it may in later films turn out to be the same for Finn time will tell on that one.
To me those hints were put in by JJ Abrams so he could fool us a bit better with Reys lightsaber scene near the end of the film.

He must have something force-related, since he got Kylo Ren's attention at the very beginning, when he was still a Stormtrooper.
Wasn't that just the fact he was walking around all suspicious and shell shocked?
 

Creamium

shut uuuuuuuuuuuuuuup
Phasma can still be saved in Ep VIII. I'm okay with a regular trooper becoming the surprise hit, because he shows the generic drones can be effective too. I like that they seem less pathetic sometimes in this movie, Chewie got hit as well.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
I just want to say that the Before the Awakening book is a very interesting read. I finished Finn's story and I'm reading now Rey's and it kind of explains a lot of the doubts I saw expressed in these spoiler threads by some.
 
To me those hints were put in by JJ Abrams so he could fool us a bit better with Reys lightsaber scene near the end of the film.


Do you mean the Force vision when Rey finds the lightsaber or the force pull of the saber she pulls off in the Kylo fight?

If it's the latter....

Did you miss the force vision, Maz telling Rey the lightsaber chose her and the Jedi Mind Trick? The force pull of the saber was never intended to be a twist just the defining moment of Rey embracing her destiny.

If it's the former doubt it. The movie itself doesn’t play the whole Rey's the real jedi not Finn twist it was just the marketing for some reason.
 

zerotol

Banned
Saw it tonight for the first time. I'd seen gifs and spoilers and all that stuff because I don't really care about spoilers nowadays. I really liked it a lot. Finn ruled! Sorry if this has been asked countless times, but what was Maz saying about Finn's eyes?
 

Braag

Member
The real hero of the movie is that one random stormtrooper who kicked Finn's ass.
He's the only competent enemy stormtrooper in the entire saga. The rest of them can't hit you with a blaster even if they stood next to you.
 

UrbanRats

Member
The real hero of the movie is that one random stormtrooper who kicked Finn's ass.
He's the only competent enemy stormtrooper in the entire saga. The rest of them can't hit you with a blaster even if they stood next to you.

He's some Marauder Shields sort of guy.
 

JimiNutz

Banned
Cant see it myself.

I think for a start that considering they lost Ben to the dark side, then Leia lost Han to Ben, you would have to assume that Leia wouldn't want to risk Rey. Most likely scenario would be to try to keep her safe, not send her to someone who likely failed Ben who is also being hunted by the Sith.

You would also have to consider that some reference to another child would have been made between Han and Leia while talking about Ben

If they sent Rey and Ben at the same time then they wouldn't have lost Ben by that point.

There would be no reason for Leia and Han to be talking about their daughter either while they were talking about Ben - especially if she was long thought dead. Why would you bring up your lost daughter who you thought had been dead for over 10 years while talking about your still living son?

I'm not necessarily saying I believe the theory but it is certainly possible.
 

Alx

Member
Wasn't that just the fact he was walking around all suspicious and shell shocked?

Maybe, but I don't think that would be worth dedicating a few seconds to it. Unless it's supposed to be a red herring, maybe. And in a realistic scenario, it may not be that rare that young Stormtroopers have bad reactions, I suppose.
 

Palpable

Member
Why exactly did Ford want Han to die in Empire Strikes Back and/or RotJ? I heard he only agreed to do TFA if Han died. I don't get it. Han Solo and Indiana Jones are what made him famous, why would he want Han dead?
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Maybe, but I don't think that would be worth dedicating a few seconds to it. Unless it's supposed to be a red herring, maybe. And in a realistic scenario, it may not be that rare that young Stormtroopers have bad reactions, I suppose.

Actually they shouldn't have reactions at all. They are trained to be soldiers, any kind of doubt is seen as a weakness. Plus, Finn's story in the Before the Awakening book ends up with
Captain Phasma noticing already that Finn has big doubts and thinking that the Jakku mission is his last chance for him to prove that he can still be an adequate Stormtrooper
 

Ding-Ding

Member
If they sent Rey and Ben at the same time then they wouldn't have lost Ben by that point.

There would be no reason for Leia and Han to be talking about their daughter either while they were talking about Ben - especially if she was long thought dead. Why would you bring up your lost daughter who you thought had been dead for over 10 years while talking about your still living son?

I'm not necessarily saying I believe the theory but it is certainly possible.

Anything is possible in Star Wars, however the theory is highly unlikely. Every conversation between Han & Leia hinted at a one child family.

If Rey 'died' when Ren fell to the darkside, then you would have to presume they thought Ren killed her. Which is something which would have definitely come up in conversation about Ren. It also would have been such a tragic event you would have to question if they even wanted their Son back.

I still say that the most likely is she is Luke's daughter. All the evidence points to that. As Star Wars is a kids film, that is also watched by adults, they are not going to over-complicate the story too much. Some things really are that obvious
 

soulluos

Member
In the novel, Ren said 'It is you'. According to Pablo Hidalgo, it's basically: "There's been an awakening. Have you felt it?" / "It is you."
 

Kinokou

Member
Kylo also strikes me as someone stronger in the force than with a saber. And his constant struggle to actually stay AWAY from the light side makes me believe that if he focused more on the "light" side part of the force he would be a truly devestating 'force' (hehehe) to be reckoned with.

He throws severe temper tantrums but I think thats more of a side effect of trying to embrace the dark side too much to the point where acts how he thinks he should act if it'll draw him closer to the dark. But I've never heard of a dark side character actually deeply struggle with the light for long periods of time and with very little outside help (Anakin only felt it after he met Luke and it only really got strong in ROTJ where he kept referring to Luke as son). That plus he's not trained in the light side or at least wasn't trained very well.

Like imagine Kylo being trained by Yoda. Holy shit he'd be unstoppable. A calm, meditated Ren would slaughter. Meanwhile Rey definitely seems more of the fighter. I hope they focus more on her saber skills and on Kylos force skills for an awesome rivalry.

I pretty much agree on this.

Loved Rey even more the second time around but still think she has no chemistry with Kylo, especially during their last fight. It wasn't very good.

Oh come on, that scene sealed the deal for me. Her accepting to letting him teach her would have been the highlight of the movie for me if it were to happen, just because it would please my inner fangirl a lot.

Who is saying rejecting the lightsaber is out of character? That doesn't make much sense! It's ENTIRELY in character. She rejects it because she's afraid by embracing the lightsaber means she'll be giving up on her family.

Plus what she saw would scare just about anyone, as you said.

This, it's totally on point.

People don't watch movies anymore :(

I noticed. But then I forgot some myself so everyone catching everything must be pretty rare.

She fought off three randos trying to grab her robot not actually fight and she had a weapon, that's not impressive.

It's better than being told that Ren has skills. It's a movie, they should show us.

The score did what it was supposed to it gave more life to the movie without being in your face with its presence. That focus on score is fine for certain films but its not the be all end all.

I'm severly disapoitned by the score as not a single new thing made an impact. I can't hum any of the tunes after seeing the film. Outside of the flute stuff in Reys theme it is a really forgettable score.

A lot of people are dismissing Finns skills as "a stormtrooper in sanitation" in this thread. Read "Before the Awakening". Sanitation may have been his side duty, but he was in the top 1% of Stormtroopers in all his testing. Think about it, if he was a janitor in armour why would he be in the attack force. Nah, that sanitation line was just about what he did apart from troopering, he was still one of the best troopers.

So to the other recurring post of Kylo "losing to amateurs", he bested Fin, who was trained as an elite soldier from his kidnapping at ~5 (?), while he had a hole in him. I mean, he's still nooby compared to full sith lords, but he's not one yet, he's getting up there.

They got to be kidding. I don't buy that for a second. Unless all his testing was hand blasters only. He can't pilot, he is unfamiliar with ship cannons (but could work it out) and there is no evidence so far to support that he should have melee combat skills and he just had his first turn in active combat in this very film.

I can't wait until Episode 8 when it's revealed that Ren is really Rey's crazy lover stalker yandere type person. The love triangle is bound to happen because Disney.

Oh Disney and your terrible villains.

I wouldn't mind that, but I think it would be best to leave that to fan fiction.

The only problem with ending the movie with Rey finding Luke -- and then not seeing anything past that -- means that it puts Episode VIII in a tricky position. Because of the opening crawl, which always covers time that's passed between films, the movie has to start some time after the end of VII. Which means we'll miss Rey and Luke's first conversation there, and however their dynamic begins.

The only way around that would be if the crawl is just a recap of VII (boring and unlikely to happen) or if VIII starts in media res, as usual, and then we flashback to Rey and Luke's first conversation at the top of the steps -- also probably not likely, and kind of an awkward way to go about it.

Good point, hoping to see a real life timed time skip then.

That won't be good idea. Many Star Wars Fans will be probably pissed off if they didn't see Luke Skywalker in this movie. (I know but I am just saying)

I honestly didn't expect to see him at all.

I assumed they showed a normal trooper to establish that all Storm Troopers have training in hand-to-hand weapon combat, which explains why Finn can keep up with an injured Kylo.

You might not have noticed it, but your brain did.

Eh, I'm still skeptical. If they could why don't all storm troopers carry riot sticks? Why just this one? *

*I don't know if that's the case but Yoshichan(?) is going to report back on this after their next screening.

The only lady in the film was Rey, unless you count Old Leia who didn't do anything except look sad and worried in every shot.

You mean of the main cast, almost every instance of having multiple background characters had men and women.


There needs to be a 3rd faction so that the Resistance and FO combine forces to defeat them!

Or a stormtrooper outbreak fraction that Finn is secretly a part of, I hope.

There's some possible hints dropped early but not followed on in this movie.

Both Rey and Finn have the exact same reactions to their experience in the Falcon. Both express the same wonderment at how they achieved what they did.

That was for Rey the first sign of the Force being with her it may in later films turn out to be the same for Finn time will tell on that one.

Which again leads me to doubt that Finn is in the top 1% of stormtroopers.

How can she fly the Millennium Falcon and why is she such a good mechanic for example. Or why she has the reaction that she has when Finn grabs her hand.

I think the first two were well established/answered in the film. She must have mechanical skills to know which parts to get and how to not harm them when she gets them as well as knowing where they would be located. And by running at that quad jumper you get that she plans to use it for the escape, so even if she struggles a bit with the falcon at first it wasn't odd that she could manage. Then it's made clear that she has flown on the planet before and that she has been inside the falcon before. On top of that flying is likely a skill that could rise her social rank/payment on Jakku so it seems logical that she would try to learn if offered a chance.
 

Kin5290

Member
How can she fly the Millennium Falcon and why is she such a good mechanic for example. Or why she has the reaction that she has when Finn grabs her hand.
The Millenium Falcon is a YT-1300 light freighter, which is basically as "generic light cargo hauler" as you can get. The model is also old as fuck. Basically, Rey going from a newer light freighter to the Millenium Falcon is like if Luke had all of his flight experience on X-Wings before he was asked to hop into a T-16 Skyhopper.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
They got to be kidding. I don't buy that for a second. Unless all his testing was hand blasters only. He can't pilot, he is unfamiliar with ship cannons (but could work it out) and there is no evidence so far to support that he should have melee combat skills and he just had his first turn in active combat in this very film.

He is skilled in hand blasters and melee combat. There is nothing about having pilot training. Which make sense, as pilots should be training separately from stormtroopers.

I think the first two were well established/answered in the film. She must have mechanical skills to know which parts to get and how to not harm them when she gets them as well as knowing where they would be located. And by running at that quad jumper you get that she plans to use it for the escape, so even if she struggles a bit with the falcon at first it wasn't odd that she could manage. Then it's made clear that she has flown on the planet before and that she has been inside the falcon before. On top of that flying is likely a skill that could rise her social rank/payment on Jakku so it seems logical that she would try to learn if offered a chance.

The Millenium Falcon is a YT-1300 light freighter, which is basically as "generic light cargo hauler" as you can get. The model is also old as fuck. Basically, Rey going from a newer light freighter to the Millenium Falcon is like if Luke had all of his flight experience on X-Wings before he was asked to hop into a T-16 Skyhopper.


Oh, for me it was pretty obvious from the movie, but there were a lot of people in these threads insensitive to visual cues, so a nice read might suit them better.

Edit: follow the discussion people, I wasn't questioning that.
 
Saw it tonight for the first time. I'd seen gifs and spoilers and all that stuff because I don't really care about spoilers nowadays. I really liked it a lot. Finn ruled! Sorry if this has been asked countless times, but what was Maz saying about Finn's eyes?
I think she was implying she'd seen the eyes of a coward before and she could see them in him when he was ready to run off and escape Takodana.
 

Kinokou

Member
He is skilled in hand blasters and melee combat. There is nothing about having pilot training. Which make sense, as pilots should be training separately from stormtroopers.






Oh, for me it was pretty obvious from the movie, but there were a lot of people in these threads insensitive to visual cues, so a nice read might suit them better.

Then Finn, at least in the movie is the worst established character in how he shows some surprising skills.

For Rey, I just elaborated in case someone else would wonder about exactly how I thought they managed to establish these skills well.
 

Johndoey

Banned
tumblr_nzvxc51nlm1v2w3lfo1_500.gif


Come on dude. Look at this. Poe is thirsty for that Chocolate.
They're going waste all this delicious chemistry aren't they.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Then Finn, at least in the movie is the worst established character in how he shows some surprising skills. .

Finn is somehow a Kylo turning the other way around. He's also ruined by doubts, the books ends before Jakku with Finn
unable to finish a regular training simulation because he's still haunted by the fact that in his first real mission his team had to kill some miners who were on strike and thought they were brought to negotiate.
. Also in his first melee fight in the movie he must use a weapon that is new to him, but he already grasps it better the second time around, but still Kylo overpowers him when he decides to.
 

Johndoey

Banned
My biggest problem with Rey's skills is that she's better than Han and Chewie at working on the Falcon.
I wouldn't say better but Han is old and hasn't seen the old bird in a time and Chewie was off being a huge racist. More like equal footing with Solo.
 

Guy.brush

Member
I've already explained the technological progress using our own history. In addition, the First Order is partly the remnants of the Empire. So they already have the technological know-how of building a Death Star. Further, as said in the film, there are unknown and unexplored areas of the galaxy and in fact, I believe the First Order set up shop in those unknown and unexplained places. So it actually makes sense if you gave it some thought.

People who think there should be as much technological progress as in our world and times or any at all have cleary not understood the StarWars universe. This is a galaxy where the Republic has stood for thousands of years, where hyperspace travel, blasters, lightsabers, holograms and targeting computers have been around for thousands of years.
You should not expect any technological progress in 20 or 30 years.

Starkiller base is also not a direct technological progression at all.
The mass alone you would need to accumulate for something like this, you could probably build like 10 Deathstars easily. Nobody noticed?!
The Emperor had the plans for the death star during AOTC times already and Death Star II was just a slightly bigger and more powerful copy of those plans, like 25 years later. (and took multiple years to get to semi completed state).
Starkiler base is a planet with an atmosphere, trees and birds. HOW DOES IT MOVE THROUGH HYPERSPACE and maintain the atmosphere?
(EDIT: Also IF you can build up planets and move them around through hyperspace as a small splinter faction in the course of like 10-20 years, wouldn't that universe be full of artificial star systems? You could essentially just reconfigure systems how you want. A cold rocky desert world? Just move it closer to its sun! No problem. There would only be perfect worlds in such a universe. It just destroys so much of the lore.)
It also uses a completely different method to fire. It sucks suns empty for ammunition, something the Deathstar managed with its own reactor core and then fires 5 weirdly arcing and homing beams to destroy multiple planets at once. It is a terrible concept.
They could have just used a Death Star III that shoots at a sun and causes it to go Red Giant that engulfs its orbiting worlds but no, they went with the more fantastical "let the dark side suck in all the visible light" rhyming metaphor and imo it is absolutely impractical and terrible and not a direct technological progression.
It also makes no sense that the Resistance, after a brainstorming session of 2 minutes knows exactly how to blow it up with 8 X-Wings, when Death Star I and II both were practically invincible and could only be destroyed in last ditch efforts after construction blueprints were found or before the station was fully operational.
Starkiller base IS fully operational and it is still a cakewalk to destroy it. It invalidates the efforts in ANH and ROTJ.

The whole thing feels more like the script writers didn't really care for logic or lore (it is a space FANTASY!) and said "let's have the final lightsaber battle in a snowy dark, cold forest and we need a trench run! Where? Could we somehow combine the superweapon and this location? Yes! Let's do it!"
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
A thing I felt was different from this movie compared to the rest is that The Force felt like a character in the movie. It had a will. It was more present. It was an active actor in the events. In the previous movie it felt like a prop. The awakening both in Finn and Rey started events. The Force even took an active interest in Rey. I think people who dismiss Rey as a
Mary Sue
don't even take The Force into account as an acting force upon the character.

See when I read these all i think of is your can replace the "the force" with "the plot" and it would be very accurate.

Just reminds me of hero chosen by destiny (the plot) to save the world. It's neither clever nor new.
 

Kin5290

Member
I just didn't like that she seemed better at repairing the Falcon than Han or Chewie.
Was Han ever supposed to be a particularly skilled mechanic? The ship has been heavily modified, but I never got the impression that was Han's work.

Meanwhile, Rey has first hand knowledge of the work that's been done on the ship for all those years it's been sitting in Simon Pegg's possession. And having a high degree of knowledge regarding how starship parts work and how to keep them working is pretty much inherent in her job description.

Chewie might have know better how to repair the Falcon, but at the time he was a little indisposed.
 

Alx

Member
Chewie might have know better how to repair the Falcon, but at the time he was a little indisposed.

Wasn't Chewie known for repairing things by kicking them until they work ? That's how I remember him from the first trilogy anyway. I think he got the job done, but wasn't really a highly skilled mechanic either. :)
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
See when I read these all i think of is your can replace the "the force" with "the plot" and it would be very accurate.

Just reminds me of hero chosen by destiny (the plot) to save the world. It's neither clever nor new.

This analogy just doesn't work. The destiny is not the plot. The force is not the destiny. "Rey was more calm and once she was reminded the fact that she can use the plot, she used the plot to overpower Kylo who was too hurt both physically and mentally to be able to use the plot properly". Nope.

I think the force is rather a tool than a god. I don't agree that the force has a will of its own, because the whole "plot" of the Star Wars series is based on the struggle between the two sides of the force. With a will there won't be two sides. If the force has a will, there is no Star Wars.

I just didn't like that she seemed better at repairing the Falcon than Han or Chewie.

She spends months on Jakku to repair a Ghtroc 690 freighter.
 

Kin5290

Member
Wasn't Chewie known for repairing things by kicking them until they work ? That's how I remember him from the first trilogy anyway. I think he got the job done, but wasn't really a highly skilled mechanics either. :)
Yeah, that's what I got from the TvTropes page.

And Rey is a gearhead who built her own custom made airspeeder out of salvaged parts. I really hope she goes back to Jakku sometime to retrieve that.
 

Johndoey

Banned
Yeah, that's what I got from the TvTropes page.

And Rey is a gearhead who built her own custom made airspeeder out of salvaged parts. I really hope she goes back to Jakku sometime to retrieve that.
Apparently Skywalker's being good with their hands is genetic.
 

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
I assumed they showed a normal trooper to establish that all Storm Troopers have training in hand-to-hand weapon combat, which explains why Finn can keep up with an injured Kylo.

You might not have noticed it, but your brain did.

I'm gonna check it out today in 6 hours.
 
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