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[excelsiorlef]

I do agree the monomyth structure was way too apparent around Maz, including Rey rejecting the call to action and then being forced back. Though I don't think it's solely on Maz, just yeah kind of lazy writing. I was annoyed that she was too much like Yoda in a film that already had an overabundance of nods. In and of herself though, the character was well designed I thought.

The only thing that makes her like Yoda is she's old and knows something about the Force,

 

[Toxi]

I relate the light saber thing to 3PO's red arm, little jokes about the EU tradition of backfilling story for every extra and prop that appears on screen.

Wait till we learn that C-3PO's arm became Starkiller Base.

German. The word for platonic friend and boyfriend is the same

Ah. IIRC, the Argentina version kept the joke.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

I relate the light saber thing to 3PO's red arm, little jokes about the EU tradition of backfilling story for every extra and prop that appears on screen.

Will be just a couple of weeks, we will learn this in the comic that comes in February

 

[BocoDragon]

I have no idea why people are so fixated on this. The exact details of how Maz came upon Luke's lightsaber are completely irrelevant to the plot and the explanation is just going to be "Some guy found it."

Except this was clearly the result of a late re-write. TFA went into shooting with the intention that the whole plot was about coming into possession of Luke's lightsaber.

Maz's "a story for another time" is factually a seam in the filmmaking process. It is very literally "we have no way to explain how the lightsaber comes into the story at this point... But don't worry, we'll let the comics and novels figure it out for us".

 

[Squire]

what, For real? This was lost in translation... Oh shit.

To be clear, she says that, but she's joking around. She's clearly known Han and Chewie both for many years. It's just a little playful affection.

 

[Oidisco]

To be fair the house was crashing down on them.

If how she got it was really important beyond it being a guy found it and then someone else got it and then another person and then me then that dismissive answer would be an issue.

Also an old friend would imply a mystery that they might never resolve.

Oh yea a lengthy explanation definitely wouldn't have worked given the situation. As I said the lack of explanation is ok, it's just the way they avoided it didn't sit well with me. Honestly even if it's never resolved, I do think the line I suggested would've worked better.

 

[Loris146]

Haven't watched this yet, but some might be interested:

The Force Awakens and Star Wars Formula - Analyzed Movie Review

Oh my god those reviews about Episode V were trash back in 1980.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Oh yea a lengthy explanation definitely wouldn't have worked given the situation. As I said the lack of explanation is ok, it's just the way they avoided it didn't sit well with me. Honestly even if it's never resolved, I do think the line I suggested would've worked better.

And again I disagree because the line you suggested creates an expectation of a mystery that they might not have any intention of resolving.

 

[Toxi]

Except this was clearly the result of a late re-write. TFA went into shooting with the intention that the whole plot was about coming into possession of Luke's lightsaber.

Maz's "a story for another time" is factually a seam in the filmmaking process. It is very literally "we have no way to explain how the lightsaber comes into the story at this point... But don't worry, we'll let the comics and novels figure it out for us".

Considering this has nothing to do with the main plot of the finished movie, leaving the explanation on the cutting room floor was a good decision because it was completely unnecessary to what actually mattered to the movie.

 

[spekkeh]

The only thing that makes her like Yoda is she's old and knows something about the Force,

Yes, small impossibly old wise alien with an ET face that acts as the supernatural mentor who sets the hero on its journey to change.

 

[GhaleonEB]

what, For real? This was lost in translation... Oh shit.

The exchange was basically,

"Where's my boyfriend?"

"He's working on fixing the Falcon."

"I like that wookie."

The delivery is hilarious.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Care to explain how? If I was asked to genuinely describe his character in a way that would make him stand out from any of the other troopers without describing some physical feat it would be that he's perhaps slightly more brash?

You're getting a little silly now.

Just look at all the memes about him. His badass introduction and fight made him transcend the story of TFA. Meanwhile, no one ever talks about Maz aside from the current discussion.

 

[Oidisco]

And again I disagree because the line you suggested creates an expectation of a mystery that they might not have any intention of resolving.

Well the line that was used creates an expectation that it'l be explained too, or atleast it did for me. They literally say it'l be explained at another time, so if it goes unresolved the current line is worse. Atleast my suggestion is slightly closer to being an answer.

 

[BocoDragon]

Considering this has nothing to do with the main plot of the finished movie, leaving the explanation on the cutting room floor was a good decision because it was completely unnecessary to what actually mattered to the movie.

Maybe, but it's clearly a compromised story position.

They went into this film thinking the re-introduction of Luke's lightsaber should be a momentous event... I think their initial instinct was correct, it should be important. The way its swept under the rug is a casualty of their need to backpedal into a workable plot.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Oh yea a lengthy explanation definitely wouldn't have worked given the situation. As I said the lack of explanation is ok, it's just the way they avoided it didn't sit well with me. Honestly even if it's never resolved, I do think the line I suggested would've worked better.

I have a feeling the explanation was in the deleted scene after the attack; from the trailer Maz is shown handing the saber to Leia. Would have been a good point to touch on it.

 

[BocoDragon]

I have a feeling the explanation was in the deleted scene after the attack; from the trailer Maz is shown handing the saber to Leia. Would have been a good point to touch on it.

She most likely didn't start the movie with it, she was just passing it on. The movie originally began with the lightsaber tumbling through space.

 

[Toxi]

Maybe, but it's clearly a compromised story position.

They went into this film thinking the re-introduction of Luke's lightsaber should be a momentous event... I think their initial instinct was correct, it should be important. The way its swept under the rug is a casualty of their need to backpedal into a workable plot.

The introduction of Luke's lightsaber is an important moment in the movie.

But how some guy found it and gave it to another guy who gave it to another guy who gave it to another guy who gave it to Maz is not important at all to the introduction of Luke's lightsaber. That's what you seem to be missing. In the movie as presented in theaters, nobody gives a shit how Maz got the lightsaber, because the stuff important to the story is what happens afterwards.

She most likely didn't start the movie with it, she was just passing it on. The movie originally began with the lightsaber tumbling through space.

Stop focusing on what the movie originally was in production. In one of the original versions of Star Wars, the protagonist was named Mace Windy. But that's completely irrelevant to the finished product on the screen.

 

[GhaleonEB]

She most likely didn't start the movie with it, she was just passing it on. The movie originally began with the lightsaber tumbling through space.

Those were the rumors, but I don't put a lot of stock in them. Would have been an awful intro at any rate, the reveal was much better served being saved for later. Rey finding it was a great reveal.

 

[Angel_DvA]

Haven't watched this yet, but some might be interested:

The Force Awakens and Star Wars Formula - Analyzed Movie Review

Thanks for sharing, that was amazing, I was annoyed about the facts that I couldn't show to my friends that SW7 is something more than just a reboot and that dude is doing it better than I could have, really good analysis.

 

[Fencedude]

When I see retorts like this I struggle to figure out if the person is intentionally missing the point of the criticism or if they've genuinely never heard that sort of criticism before.

Edit-Just for the record I'm not even agreeing or disagreeing with his statement.

If the person I was responding to had used more than three words in their "criticism" I would probably have expounded on the point.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

She most likely didn't start the movie with it, she was just passing it on. The movie originally began with the lightsaber tumbling through space.

The art book hints at the lightsaber/space angle, I think it would have made the search for Luke thread stronger than what we actually got.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

Can someone link to the Artbook? There are a couple on Amazon and I want to buy the right

 

[BocoDragon]

Stop focusing on what the movie originally was in production. In one of the original versions of Star Wars, the protagonist was named Mace Windy. But that's completely irrelevant to the finished product on the screen.

It's not like I care whether the original plan was better or worse. But it means we can't pretend Maz's possession of the lightsaber is an inspired piece of plotting when it's a matter of record that it was a half-assed band-aid thrown on in mid-production.

Those were the rumors, but I don't put a lot of stock in them. Would have been an awful intro at any rate, the reveal was much better served being saved for later. Rey finding it was a great reveal.

It's been confirmed that the lightsaber was the original macguffin to find Luke during production, not the star map.

I don't think it was a great reveal... She found it in a random basement. It was wierd honestly. A blatant contrivance. But I'm sure the books and comics will clean it all up later...

The art book hints at the lightsaber/space angle, I think it would have made the search for Luke thread stronger than what we actually got.

Lightsaber is mythic.

Star map is paper thin.

I'd have preferred the lightsaber quest by far... But I can't say that their original plan for it was good, considering they opted to re-work it.

 

[Toxi]

It's not like I care whether the original plan was better or worse. But it means we can't pretend like it's a inspired piece of plotting when it's a matter of record that it was a half-assed band-aid thrown on in production.

It's not an "inspired piece of plotting". It's a mildly humorous throwaway line.

But the idea that it's flawed because it doesn't explain something that didn't need to be explained is silly.

 

[Fencedude]

See this kind of fan comics? You can do that with many characters in TFA because they have character and personality that go beyond "plot devices". You can't do that with Maz because, if you remove her monomyth-esque purpose of giving the heroes the Magic Item and feeding them information, there is nothing left.

Which, even assuming this is true, is fine?

Not every character in a work, especially a 2 hour movie, will have that sort of depth.

 

[BocoDragon]

It's not an "inspired piece of plotting". It's a mildly humorous throwaway line.

But the idea that it's flawed because it doesn't explain something that didn't need to be explained is silly.

In an ideal Star Wars it would have been explained. Indeed, Lucasfilm's first instinct to tell a new Star Wars film was "where is Luke's lightsaber and what story can we tell around it?". It seemed like such an elemental question in the SW universe that the entire reboot could have been based on it.

In this final movie? Well, I guess I don't care. The whole idea of it just sitting in some new character's basement is lame enough that I don't think any line of exposition would work for me.

 

[GhaleonEB]

It's been confirmed that the lightsaber was the original macguffin to find Luke during production, not the star map.

Got any links? I haven't read anything about major rewrites during production, and I've been reading a lot about the production over the past month since it came out.

I thought the entire reveal sequence was beautifully done. Not everything requires an instant explanation.

 

[Imperfected]

In an ideal Star Wars it would have been explained. Indeed, Lucasfilm's first instinct to tell a new Star Wars film was "where is Luke's lightsaber and what story can we tell around it?". It seemed like such an elemental question in the SW universe that the entire reboot could have been based on it.

In this final movie? Well, I guess I don't care. The whole idea of it just sitting in some new character's basement is lame enough that I don't think any line of exposition would work for me.

That's because EU Star Wars had scraped out the bottom of the barrel and created an entire salt mine underneath it with continued scraping. They had already created entire series of novels for every character that had the grace of being named in the original trilogy (and some that hadn't), and entire novels about half the insignificant props and pieces of costuming in scenes.

The EU is dead. People can tell actual stories instead of eulogizing the Inanimate Carbon Rod, now.

 

[BocoDragon]

Got any links? I haven't read anything about major rewrites during production, and I've been reading a lot about the production over the past month since it came out.

I thought the entire reveal sequence was beautifully done. Not everything requires an instant explanation.

http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplayl...pire-strikes-back-flashback-and-more-20151230

 

[Toxi]

In an ideal Star Wars it would have been explained. Indeed, Lucasfilm's first instinct to tell a new Star Wars film was "where is Luke's lightsaber and what story can we tell around it?". It seemed like such an elemental question in the SW universe that the entire reboot could have been based on it.

In this final movie? Well, I guess I don't care. The whole idea of it just sitting in some new character's basement is lame enough that I don't think any line of exposition would work for me.

It fell into a hole. Some guy found it. After changing hands a bunch of time, it ended up in the basement of a famous pirate.

Is that really necessary information for the story of The Force Awakens?

 

[GraveHorizon]

The red-head commander asshole is proof that

Spoiler

Star Wars is set in the distant future of the Harry Potter universe, where magic spread across the universe and the Weasley family line endured.

 

[Toxi]

The red-head commander asshole is proof that

Spoiler

Star Wars is set in the distant future of the Harry Potter universe, where magic spread across the universe and the Weasley family line endured.

Figures a Weasley would lead an army of muggles.

 

[GhaleonEB]

http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplayl...pire-strikes-back-flashback-and-more-20151230

Thanks for the link.

As they explain, "We only know what we’ve heard from our various sources, mixed with reports from other websites, and cross-checked with the narrative presented in the novelization and other tie-in books." So, it's been checked out, but at some point, it's safe to say they were part of the story.

This does not "confirm" anything, though.

That Rumored Lightsaber Opening: You might recall early rumors that said 'Force Awakens' would open with Luke Skywalker's lightsaber-clutching hand floating through space (though it might've just been the lightsaber — either way, it was his) and landing on a desert planet, where it's discovered by John Boyega and Daisy Ridley who decide to return the lightsaber to its rightful owner, starting a new adventure. Part of this is true. Apparently, there was a scene of the floating lightsaber, but it was cut out of the movie "late in the process." That surely would've been a bit on the nose in a movie already rich with callbacks, and it adds more mystery to how Maz Kanata came across it.

That said, this is more in line with what I had read before, that an opening shot may have been cut. You had made it sound like it was critical to the plot, but there's no mention of that in the link, and no mention of major rewrites, just a few edits.

Except this was clearly the result of a late re-write. TFA went into shooting with the intention that the whole plot was about coming into possession of Luke's lightsaber.

All the link mentions is one deleted scene early on that sets up the later reveal of the saber, not that it had a larger role in the story.

 

[BocoDragon]

It fell into a hole. Some guy found it. After changing hands a bunch of time, it ended up in the basement of a famous pirate.

Is that really necessary information for the story of The Force Awakens?

Or they could write it into the story in a way that mattered.

Kylo Ren seemed to like collecting Vader artifacts. That lightsaber is a Vader artifact. Maybe his quest for it, and the possibility that it could find Luke, is what launches it into the plot? Actually I think that was the original plan...

I don't care how it got into grandma's basement... It's already just act of God territory at that point...

 

[Lifejumper]

People not liking maz makes me sad

 

[DiipuSurotu]

That said, this is more in line with what I had read before, that an opening shot may have been cut. You had made it sound like it was critical to the plot, but there's no mention of that in the link, and no mention of major rewrites, just a few edits.

The "lightsaber scene" could refer to the deleted part of the Rey flashback when apparently we would have seen the lightsaber trade hands from Cloud City all the way to Maz.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Yes, small impossibly old wise alien with an ET face that acts as the supernatural mentor who sets the hero on its journey to change.

Luke was already on that course when he met Yoda.

And all you described is narrative functions. The characters themselves are completely different.

 

[BocoDragon]

Thanks for the link.



This does not "confirm" anything, though.


That said, this is more in line with what I had read before, that an opening shot may have been cut. You had made it sound like it was critical to the plot, but there's no mention of that in the link, and no mention of major rewrites, just a few edits.


All the link mentions is one deleted scene early on that sets up the later reveal of the saber, not that it had a larger role in the story.

I have read specifically that the lightsaber was the object around which the quest was based, rather than the star map, but no I can't find a link now, sorry. Of course it could be conjecture on their part.

The star map/R2 D2 waking up, etc does seem awfully thin, doesn't it? Is that really the original plan for a mythic quest? Sure sounds like a quick n dirty plot rewrite to me. But until I find a better link I'll just call that conjecture.

 

[Fencedude]

Or they could write it into the story in a way that mattered.

Kylo Ren seemed to like collecting Vader artifacts. That lightsaber is a Vader artifact. Maybe his quest for it, and the possibility that it could find Luke, is what launches it into the plot? Actually I think that was the original plan...

I don't care how it got into grandma's basement... It's already just act of God territory at that point...

This idea that EVERYTHING has to have enormous significance and be connected to everything else was the Number 1 thing wrong with the EU.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Or they could write it into the story in a way that mattered.

Kylo Ren seemed to like collecting Vader artifacts. That lightsaber is a Vader artifact. Maybe his quest for it, and the possibility that it could find Luke, is what launches it into the plot? Actually I think that was the original plan...

I don't care how it got into grandma's basement... It's already just act of God territory at that point...

How would a lightsaber Luke lost 25+ years ago be a key to finding him now. The map is a much more logical plot device.

 

[Toxi]

Haven't watched this yet, but some might be interested:

The Force Awakens and Star Wars Formula - Analyzed Movie Review

Huh, didn't notice the half and half lighting in the Han death scene before the light switches to all red. Neat.

In general, the Force Awakens is one of the nicest looking Star Wars movies, maybe even the nicest (Empire Strikes Back's theatrical release has some very iffy stuff like the original Wampa scene and how plain Cloud City looks).

 

[GraveHorizon]

I'm so glad that I stopped caring so much about minor plot inconsistencies and having unreasonably strict demands of writing "quality" in time for the newest Star Wars films. It was a fun film. Maybe I should rewatch the prequels.

Spoiler

Just kidding, it's already too late for those ones.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Luke's disembodied hand floating through space would have been hilarious

 

[excelsiorlef]

Haven't watched this yet, but some might be interested:

The Force Awakens and Star Wars Formula - Analyzed Movie Review

This was fantastic. He tackles the re-tread argument perfectly.

 

[BocoDragon]

This idea that EVERYTHING has to have enormous significance and be connected to everything else was the Number 1 thing wrong with the EU.

This statement baffles me, because it's exactly what they just did.

They just offloaded the explanation of how Maz got Luke's lightsaber to novels and comics. "A story for another time" is an advertisement for a comic book.

I want it to be something explained simply in the film so it isn't this big dumb open plot thread that's inevitably going to be explained to death in supplemental media.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

How would a lightsaber Luke lost 25+ years ago be a key to finding him now. The map is a much more logical plot device.

Originally, as the rumors/conjecture have it, the map was in the lightsaber, or allowed them to find Luke, but it was strictly tied to lightsaber.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Her blasting of into space in search of him would have been a far better ending than the one we got.

There was no real 'pay-off' in finding Luke, nothing that suggested the struggle to find him was a worthwhile one, it was just another check-box that had to be filled for JJ to reach his full 'You are watching a Star Wars film' quota.

Here's what would have made it better

1. Remove the Starkiller stuff. It was dumb. Just make the Rebellion storm the recently found First Order base
2. Move the ending Rey vs Ren fight to when she actually got captured. This time make it a standstill after TFO are given orders to retreat because Rebellion troops have been detected near their planet hideout. Finn still gets injured though and Han is still killed.
3. Have Rey instead have a force vision/maybe R2 seeing the lightsaber reactivate him to see where Luke is and have her set off to find him from that point, and have the rest of the movie maybe be a quick series of scenes of her landing on planets. Maybe have one in depth where there's some danger or next step to the puzzle. Then we could actually keep the same ending scene, but it'd be more significant.

 

[DrForester]

Haven't watched this yet, but some might be interested:

The Force Awakens and Star Wars Formula - Analyzed Movie Review

So, is his style just like the Plinkett reviews normally, or was it a running gag about ripping off previous things?

 

[Yoshichan]

Haven't watched this yet, but some might be interested:

The Force Awakens and Star Wars Formula - Analyzed Movie Review

This was incredible.

 

[Toxi]

So, is his style just like the Plinkett reviews normally, or was it a running gag about ripping off previous things?

That's what I was wondering LOL