There is a possibility that Marvel Studios and LucasFilm do focus tests, too.
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
There is a possibility that Marvel Studios and LucasFilm do focus tests, too.
I've only seen RotS twice when it came out, and just rewatched that scene now for the first time. In that final force lightning tussle Yoda was at a disadvantage going into it but you see he's stronger in the force and the growing determination/power in his eyes and he turns it around, the Emperor starts getting pushed back and you see the panic in his face, the explosion sends them flying with Emperor going back further but Yoda was positioned close to the edge so he also falls down.
So I'm thinking he should carry on and win. Then you see his empty cape floating down. I read this as during that final tussle Yoda got more in touch with the force and got more insight and realised he was going down the wrong path and needing to go down a fundamentally different path, the empty cape thus representing the death of Warrior Yoda. Thinking back I guess I subconsciously saw the cape as a reference to ANH when Obi Wan stops fighting and sacrifices his life and his empty cloak falls to the ground so this being Yoda going down that same path and putting his full trust in the force rather than his own abilities. I'm guessing I'm the only person in the world that saw it this way lol.
It's not all of feminism down to zero, it's Rey as a representative for feminism. You have this female lead and instead of fending for herself the whole entire force has to step in and be her knight in shining armour and save her without her even realising. Even at the end, Kylo's down, she's got a tough decision whether to kill him but then she's protected from making that decision. You had a pretty good character who you can see has overcome adversity in the past, but then she ends up not having to overcome adversity and in the end not doing much.
OT Leia helped get the plans to Tatooine despite being chased by a force user, wasn't intimidated by Chewie like most people, helped free Han and killed Jabba the Hut, and helped to take down Death Stars. OT Leia kicks the shit out of the failed mother and failed leader that is TFA Leia, the joke that is Phasma, and the hostage to external events that is Rey put together. If anything, TFA is insiduously harmful to feminism.
been getting hype for Rouge One recently. Been thinking all the cool thinks that can happen in this movie. Just 11 more months...
Vader def has to be in this movie. Being its a movie about stealing the Deathstar
One thing that worries me is that its the same director of Godzilla
i had no idea about that. that's disgusting, and apparently he wanted to kill off elena in uncharted 2 as well. that, plus how every major black character in the last of us
is killed off or infected,
been getting hype for Rouge One recently. Been thinking all the cool thinks that can happen in this movie. Just 11 more months...
Vader def has to be in this movie. Being its a movie about stealing the Deathstar
One thing that worries me is that its the same director of Godzilla
godzilla had good moments. the issue was more with the script than the direction.
the story should have been cloverfield-esque about bryan cranston trying to get his family out of san francisco while this fucking force of nature is just wrecking shit
PdotMichael
Banned
Because you are biased as fuck.
Star Wars was long before Disney the most commercialized franchise in the industry. And you can see it in the movies.
Again, I'm not going to justify why Rey worked and overcame adversity on her own will and effort, something that has been discussed to death and you can find those on your own if you're seriously willing to consider the argument against your points.
Instead, I will point out the irony that you, a male, has the right to define what is and is not an empowering figure for women. I'd love to see you go up to a little girl who idolizes Rey for being awesome, and lecture her on how Rey is harmful to her perceptions of empowerment because she's awesome in the wrong way. If women are finding Rey empowering....which many, many are. In this very thread in fact.....then who the fuck are you to tell them they can't or shouldn't because they don't match your standards for it?
Edit: okay, I lied, because I can't ignore this one part. "entire force has to step in and be her knight in shining armour". Since when was usage of the force seen as a fucking weakness of all things? By this logic, Luke is a weakling because the force helps him...do everything, basically. to argue this point, you would have to say Vader's a weakling because he only force chokes people, and a truly strong villain would strangle them with their own hands. And god, how pathetic is Yoda, openly admitting he uses the force to help him do shit like lift spaceships out of the swamp, what a wuss.
The force is both a tool and an ally. It controls you and you control it. It's a cyclical, symbiotic relationship. To say that it makes her weak to use it, but never make that same comment about Luke or Anakin or Yoda or the Emperor, basically has you saying a woman being a jedi is disempowering, since being a jedi is defined by being a user of the force. There has been a lot of bullshit spun to try and discredit Rey in various ways, but the idea that being able to do amazing and powerful things with the force is evidence of disempowerment is pure, utter nonsensical bullshit of the first caliber that requires Olympic levels of mental gymastics to actually put forth. And it's an argument that no one has ever made until Rey decided to use the force to her purposes.
Edit 2: And to add to this, I like how you decide to mention how Rey being self sufficient in so many other respects (fighting without the force, being a mechanic, etc) is irrelevant if she is suggested to rely on something outside herself in any way possible. The fact that one single failing in the narrative, as you see it, makes the entirety of her empowerment irrelevant is the kind of reductionist bullshit that is rooted in stereotyping. You're basically implying that she can NEVER be put in a position of true vulnerability or else that one instance is defined as a failure of her entire person. Again, no male ever suffers from this. No one has ever said that the fact that Luke needed both Han and the Force and Obiwan whispering in his ear discredits his achievements and capability. But Rey relies on the force and that renders everything else irrelevant. And in the same breath, you say OT leia is a far more empowering figure when her role is defined as being entirely suplementary for male figures achieving their goals. So women using a mystical, possibly sentient tool to help her achieve what her goals on her own is insidiously disempowering, but Leia constantly being a helper character whose sole contribution is aiding dudes do their jobs is empowering? The argument is so stupid, it defeats itself.
On the contrary, Neil Druckmann is precisely the kind of dude that's fit for the role he's in. That he used to have sexist tendencies is just the norm and the reason why our culture is changing for the better for having recognized the place we put women in our media. Frankly, nearly all of us have been in places where we've held wrongful believes of a class of people for one reason or another. I grew up in an environment that was hateful to gay people, and using "gay" as a derogative unthinkingly just because that was the culture at the time. Then I grew up and actually met gay people. It's silly to condemn people for being born into a culture that feeds these poisonous ideas into you. What the real problem here is the willful refusal to grow and change those perceptions. Neil Druckmann did that, and his understanding about gender roles is important for that. As I said, he didn't do it maliciously, which is why it's so hard to convince some people about how representation matters. They do harmful things to the psychology that aren't immediately evident. The important thing is that he learned and moved on from that position.
As for him killing off
black characters
Riley
It had it's moments but Gareth executed alot of scenes very poorly to where it leaves you wanting more during the movie, and at the end it doesn't deliver the way it should.
That's primarily why I'm worried.
at the very least, he has a lot of room to grow. henry and sam's relationship is more like a prop in the story to shine light on joel and ellie's, to provide a contrast. riley is important because she's important to ellie.
marlene is there to ultimately show joel's resolve, but with some rewrites could have easily been tommy, or maybe tess, which could have been actually more powerful in the end
riley, tess, sarah, and marlene all bite it. and while david, sam, and henry die too, all the white male 'good guys': bill, tommy, and joel, are alive at the end of the game.
sorry to get off-track there. it's a good point you're making and i'm glad to see more variety in entertainment. it means it will lead to more people growing up with these influences, and provide us with even more ideas that aren't stuck in the same general sense of privilege. i suspect that's where we'll actually find the next 'star wars.'
Eh, maybe. I would agree it's something he should be aware of, I guess. But a story doesn't necessarily have to be perfect in order to be good, representation wise. For example, consider the first tomb raider. It was essentially the first game that proved that a female player character that could maintain a successful megafranchise. Against it was the fact that Lara was highly sexually objectified, sure, but when the industry essentailly disbelieved in the very idea of a female protagonist, then Lara could be considered progressive. It'd be nice to say that progress ought to be made in leaps and bounds, but it's more often the case where it's small, incremental steps. And in this day and age, where overly sexualizing women would be viewed a bad thing, despite being in the p-position of empowerment, we have Lara, while continuing to be a highly attractive woman with a fantastic rack, is not sexually objectified despite this. The camera doesn't linger on her body in any inappropriate way and her character is the front and center of her depiction rather than her body (whether her character is well written is another debate, but it's undeniably the forefront of the tale). This has been found historically too. There were books and plays that could be said to embody feminism in the 17th century (though feminism as a movement didn't exist yet), but released today, they would be highly sexist for the fact that nearly all of them depicted women as defined by their sex and marriage potential. For all that, they gave those females dimensions and elements of power that they lacked in life. So, basically what I'm saying is that it's baby steps, and while I don't disagree that those might be potential problems to look into, the fact that he characterized them so well still makes them significant.
Also, not to quibble, but Bill
being gay makes him a minority as well,
Just to be clear, I was assuming the following:
This is not her using the force. This is the force using her. She doesn't even know what happened, therefore she's not in control. Not being in control is being disempowered. Luke, Anakin, Yoda and Emperor use the force but they do so deliberately. They've been trained to use the force, they've had to work for it. Their use of the force is partially a display of their relative self-mastery and it's a display of good qualities like discipline, endeavor and hard work.
The problem with Rey is it started out well, but they took her in a direction where external events are the determining factor. It's not a single failure in the narrative, there's multiple failures where's she's hostage to good fortune. OT Leia had to strive for everything she achieved(only to see it all collapse in TFA) whereas Rey ended up being given everything for free, that's why I say TFA is insiduously disempowering. If you want a lead feminist movie icon that's empowering then Alien and Ripley already got it right 30 years ago.
I'd love to see you go up to a little girl who idolizes Paris Hilton for being awesome, and lecture her on how Paris Hilton is harmful to her perceptions of empowerment because she's awesome in the wrong way. If women are finding Paris Hilton empowering....which many, many are. then who the fuck are you to tell them they can't or shouldn't because they don't match your standards for it?
The logical conclusion of what you are saying is that male teachers should be banned from teaching girls and fathers should be banned from talking to their daughters because they might corrupt them with their privileged male opinions.
uncelestial
Member
Before that, it was Titanic, which had a female lead, and Avatar, which was one of a million other movies with some kind of "couple" at the center of an adventure story. Frankly, I agree with the person you're responding to. There are other aspects to this movie that are more central to its quality for the vast majority of people. Branding everyone who isn't specifically heralding TFA's diversity as "privileged," just because they enjoyed a movie without thinking about this stuff so much, is simply hateful. Regardless of how you think you're being right now, I would rather hang with the person who just shrugged and said "yeah, it was great! I had a lot of fun" than the person saying "everybody who doesn't judge this film primarily on its casting choices is operating from a place of privilege."
There are plenty of shows and movies with diverse casts that suck. It's important to pay attention to other things in life. And I'm saying this as someone who is also glad to see that a movie with a diverse cast is being rewarded.
uncelestial
Member
Yep, lil Anakin was also a horrible character. Badly written, acted, and conceived. I doubt you'll find many TPM defenders here.
Again, moronic argument. By that token, any case where instinct occurs is not being empowering. Martial artists often describe their fights as not them being in control, but their bodies reacting in the correct way out of sheer instinct that a history of fighting has ingrained in them. Subconcious processses happen all the fucking time in everything you do, especially when it's something your familiar with. If you want an more mundane example, driving cars is one. After a certain point, you don't actually pay attention to the fundamentals of driving that you pay attention to when you're first learning. People often describe experiences where they have a destination in mind, but don't actually remember the specifics of driving there unless something unusual happens. That's your mastery of driving taking while your concious mind and attention is directed to other things, like holding a conversation with the passenger. Having a mastery of the force wouldn't make you more deliberate in it's employment, but less, assuming that it works like any other skill mastery process in the real world.
And, again, the force IS established to control your actions, but not in a way that invalidates your ability to control things. Rey wasn't forced to pilot the Falcon. She could have literally stopped at any moment. It would have resulted in her and Finn's deaths, but she could have done it. This is the same way Luke's actions were controlled in that training exercise that Obiwan had him do. The force made him place the sword where it was meant to go, but he wasn't in a position of disempowerment because of it. Another example in TFA is Kylo Ren's first scene. There was no way he could have sensed that blaster the way he did. He didn't 'deliberately' choose to stop it. The force acted through him with the correct response on pure instinct. Is Kylo Ren therefore disempowered? And the condition of doing it 'deliberately' still falls apart when everything aside from the piloting and visions that the lightsaber gave her WAS her deliberately using the force. She deliberately used the force to do the mind trick and beat down Kylo Ren, but you mentioned those as her failures to be empowered as well, so you're not even consistent in this argument.
And really, this itself is contradictory. Being aided by the force that is disempowering unless you mean to do it? Why? Wouldn't the fact that your relying on the force controlling you, deliberately or otherwise, still mean you are relying on an external entity to do the things you want done? How does the fact that you knowingly consent to it change the fact that you are dependent on it? Either way, by your definition, you're not being self sufficient or achieving things on your own merit and the only distinction you're making is whether you know it or not.
Stop digging this hole, seriously. The mental gymnastics required to put forth this argument are impressively flexible, but that doesn't make them sound.
Edit: Oh, and one last thing. Anakin himself did use the force instinctively like Rey throughout TPM, as he knew fuck all about it.
You misspelled "Strawman argument" as "Logical conclusion"
But I would allow them to look up to Paris Hilton pretty easily because I recognize I have no authority over what other people decide to look up to. I would offer my opinion on why you might be conscientious about certain aspects of a role model, but I would never say "your wrong for choosing who to view as empowering". You're not talking a father advising a child to be concious of role models, you're saying "This is bad for you" without even considering the rationale for why they might find it good for them and supplement your own. It's patronizing as fuck. If they choose to find Paris Hilton empowering, I would ask them why. Who knows, maybe they have a good reason for it. But supposing they didn't, I might offer my counter opinion, but that's all. What your describing is dictating who they look up to for them is by definition controlling, which you just defined as disempowering. Girls have to be able to choose their role models, and fathers should be teaching them to be able to think rationally about what they want and why. From there, they can choose to look up to on their own.
And honestly, comparing Rey to Paris Hilton? Christ...
I know my is not popular opinion here, but I don't think that Luke is a good character either, then again Hamill probably is main reason for this, while Rey is, it was first time in SW for me when the main character seems right, she's smart, cool and conflicted, she has a distinctive strong character, not to mention she's an adult already. I admit that Daisy is very big part of why Rey is so good.
Now, remaining two films can still ruin her, or make even better. I very much hope for the latter.
where do you people get those ideas about time travel? I'm yet to see any source for such rumours
so, you are saying VIII will be a spinoff?
Trigonometrize.
Member
I think it's literally just "Johnson directed a time travel movie in Looper, and is now making a space fantasy movie.... hmmm...."
uncelestial
Member
Nah, you're not alone. I always found Luke to be a little "aw shucks" and whiny and I never thought Hamill really had much gravitas in the role until Jedi when he shows much swag arriving at Jabba's place.
I bet Rey will have a great arc in the end. The mysterious past being filled in is going to explain a lot, I'm sure. On the second viewing, after the amazing evasive maneuvers she took with the Millenium Falcon, I noticed that during the excited Rey/Finn chattering scene that happens afterwards, one of the talking-over-each-other exchanges has Finn going: "How did you do that?!" and she says, "I don't know! I've flown a little bit but never..."
So in some ways, she's just as taken aback by her enhanced intuition as us. Episode 8 and 9 have a wide opening to bring this all together, and putting her in Luke's hands so that we truly pass the torch to her and make her a proper Jedi (and they finally let us see some of her pain/past) will finally make her human, vulnerable, and into someone who has earned their powers. It's gonna be fine.
WadiumArcadium
Member
JJ's said many times it was exactly the film he wanted to make and that there was no interference from Bob Iger and the Disney execs. Believe what you will.
If you don't knowingly consent to it then you are just a puppet. Completely disempowered.
If you knowingly consent then you have some control. You're empowered to some extent. Maybe not completely empowered, but that just means you should eliminate your ego and be humble and grateful.
The martial artist trains their instinct. The advantage their instinct gives them is earned. Seeing the martial artist with the trained instinct is empowering. You can relate "I can do that!" I can train and develop my fighting instinct. Or I can train and become a doctor or an astronaut or climb a mountain. The martial artist is an empowering role model. Not completely empowering because just like you they rely on their body which relies on oxygen and food and other externalities. But that just means they should eliminate the ego and be humble and grateful.
This is why people can relate to Luke, as he trains his abilities improve. He doesn't complete his training what happens?
It doesn't matter that Luke's taking advantage of the force. You can learn to take advantage of your body, mind and whatever other resources you have access to. But you can't be a female race driver and think I'm just gonna drive and some kind of force is going to wake up and help me win the race. Or I'm going to watch the martial artist and on the first or second attempt do what they do better than them.
I'm not dictating, I'm offering my counter opinion. And I'm not just giving my counter opinion, I've been giving the rationale behind it.
And your rationale is explicitly a sexist double standard
Is there some rationale behind this claim your making?
The fact that you are being, obviously, sexist?
Or maybe how, as Veelk said and you brushed off, you are holding Rey to standards that you aren't holding any male character in this franchise.
By this logic, there is no way to be wholly empowering, so it's a moot point. If everything that relies on having external influences diminishes your empowerment, then the only way to be empowering is to somehow exist outside the universe in a void.
But you said partially empowering. Okay, so your logic is that being aided by something unknowingly means you have no control (which is a horseshit way to frame it, as I established in the previous post, but lets ignore that for the sake of argument), but you have control if you deliberately trained your fighting instinct.
So, despite the fact that you establish that external factors beyond your consciousness influencing your ability to accomplish something is a form of disempowerment, the source of empowerment is to have the thing that controls your actions unconciously do it well. So your only role is to help the thing that takes away your control help take away your control more effectively.
Which is a nonsensical argument. Instinct doesn't take away your control. It's not a seperate force from who you are. It's just your unconcious processes helping you make the best choice you'd make anyway if you were able to take the time to process things faster. It's not controling you anymore than your eyes blinking on their own is disempowering your vision.
You're placing standards that are inherently contradictory. Empowerment isn't only legit by these moving goalposts (because the original argument was that she didn't use the force deliberately. Now it's that she wasn't trained in the force, which is something else), being empowered just means being able to accomplish what you want to do. It doesn't matter whether you do it by utilizing other people, or a mystical force, or your own body, the point is that you accomplish what you want to do. That is the route definition of the word, to be EMBUED with POWER. The how and why doesn't matter on a general level, the point is that you have it and it works for you.
And the grand kicker of it all? REY DID WHAT YOUR DESCRIBING. It's established that she has trained in fighting, piloting, and mechanics all before she got off Jakku. Rey did work on all those things, so her success isn't just because of the force, but it supplements her established training. But your argument before this dictated this was all irrelevant, while now your saying in the same breath that she needs training to make what she does believable. Compared that to Luke, who literally never did anything of the amazing feats he did in the movie except pilot a ship in a peaceful country environment that would in no way prepare him for what it would be like to fight in a space battle.
He blows up the fucking death star is what, coincidentally on his second attempt of ever using the force of his fucking life. But no, it's Rey who bullshits her way to the top....
Look, I know I'm being excessively rude to you. But I can't help it. These are, without any exaggeration, the poorest arguments to discredit Rey I've seen, and there have been a lot of them. You make these nonsensical premises that you self contradict in the very next paragraph, resulting in an incoherent nonsensical irrational 'rationale' as you like to call it, that is so asinine that it's impossible to not laugh it off. "They need to train and struggle to achieve mastery, now look at ol' Relatable Luke who masters it enough to perform the impossible shot without computers hours after he learned the force even existed" "Using the force isn't empowerment unless you know your doing it, but when Rey beats Kylo Ren knowingly using the force...uh, what i actually meant she needs formal training in the force!" "Even though Rey has all these other skills and accomplishments, there are a couple instances that I don't find believable, and I say I can zero in on those things to dismiss the character wholesale" "Leia is the real figure of empowerment, because she never did accomplished anything on her volition which translates in my mind to her putting in work!"
Maybe this crap makes sense in your head, but it doesn't on paper, and I can't find it in me to be kinder to someone who doesn't see these basic contradictions in the argument they're making. Other Rey arguments have been frustrating as well, but they often coherent enough not to trip over their own feet from the outset while making absurd claims like a single character who has been wildly successful is actually insidously damaging. So maybe i'm being a bit mean, but this....this is just dumb.
Nope. You don't get to play the 'it's just my opinion, man' card when you've established that you feel you're in the right to tell girls they're wrong for liking something you disapprove of, such as Paris Hilton. You don't get to backtrack out of that.
Besides, you're missing the overall idea here. It's not about you not being able to have an opinion on these matters. Obviously, you can. It's about taking into account and giving consideration to the value of women who probably have a better fucking perspective on what they need to see in an empowering figure than either you or me. If a girl or woman decides she finds Rey empowering simply for the fact that she's a badass, and you come in "Well, she's not legitimately badass by my inane standards" while ignoring all the heroes the general male population has idolized that suffer from exactly the same lack of struggle that Rey has had (including Luke Skywalker in ANH), you're being an asshole. You don't get to decide what other people find empowering, period, especially when you haven't heard their reasons for it, and especially when your own definition is as weak and riddled with double standards and lacking in clear definition as it is.
Both of your claims here seem clearly false to me. Can you provide a quote where I've held a male character to a lower standard?
Look at my reply, I have two instances of it right there. Before that, it's Anakin in TPM.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I skipped to the 54 minute mark, and it was an awkward looking dude completely missing the point of Ren killing Han Solo.
"I guess that was JJ saying that Kylo Ren is really evil."
There's something really annoying about watching people who absolutely do not understand storytelling try to "critique" a story.
It's like listening to creationists talk about science or conspiracy theorists talk about the government. Smug self assured confidence combined with blunt force ignorance is one of the most unlikable qualities you can find in people.
I think I'm on board with this – except:
1. I think hearing Obi-Wan's voice say "Rey" suggests more that she is a Kenobi, and
2. I didn't get the impression Luke was nearly in tears at the end. I got the sense he was just suppressing lots of pent-up emotions, which would happen even if he wasn't related to her. Like a sorely forgotten past rising up to meet you against your will.
= my lived experience on GAF
PS your posts at heidern have been great, Veelk
I've not posted anything about Anakin in TPM and I haven't made any claims about him being a good male role model in TPM. He's not relevant to what I've been posting.
Yes, that's right! I know it seems counterintuitive but it's right. If the choice is to either give away control and get a better result or not give away control and not get a better result then your power lies in the choice, not the result. If you have the choice then you can influence the result and thus you are empowered. If you don't have the choice then the result is out of your hands and you are effectively powerless, in other words disempowered. Making the choice may be a skill that you can develop. Encouraging development of that skill is helpful and empowering. Anything discouraging development of the skill is advocating laziness and is disempowering.
I've already explicitly stated that Rey started out well and the problems began once they got to the Millenium Falcon. My point is she started out as a positive role model but then they messed it up.
Luke doesn't blow up the Death Star using the force. He uses the force to help him fire an accurate shot at the previously discovered weak point which leads to the Death Star blowing up. Luke has also had training in the force. Deliberate training can accelerate progress a thousand times. He said before the Death Star run it's possible and alluded to his already developed(trained) marksmanship skills. Obi Wan explained the force, showed him some of it's use, Luke's first force training was on performing blind. He hears the voice of Obi Wan telling him what to do. This is effectively more training. Hearing a dead person's voice also would obviously also boost his faith and focus on the metaphysical and away from the physical. He switches off his targeting computer which is like a ritual of getting into state for switching off from the physical world. Han has given him encouragement. Leia and the others are willing things to go well for him which may boost the force. Everything is aligned to the shot going in and it goes in. That's why the scene is so good. Luke isn't the ultimate role model here and he doesn't get all the credit, but he did his part. The underlying messages are positive.
I'm not backtracking, you're aggressively throwing accusations at me. You've said yourself you might offer your counter opinion to people different to you. That's what all my posts are, my counter opinion. If I happen to offer my counter opinion to a girl that's my right. If she agrees or doesn't agree with what I'm saying, that's her right. There's no dictating involved.
You're under the misapprehension that I took the initiative in this. Other people brought this topic up and threw accusations, I was simply responding. Neither have I started a campaign promoting all the heroes the general male population has idolized that suffer from exactly the same lack of struggle that Rey has had, nor do I see one in this thread so it's reasonable that I ignore them.
I think this is a good enough reason for me to slot TFA into #1, too.
Star Wars: The Force Awakens is equally as important as A New Hope, but for totally different reasons. That is, not because TFA is a benchmark of effects and a new type of blockbuster like ANH was, but because TFA has proven a point about the sorts of characters audiences enjoy and has blown to bits pre-conceived Hollywood notions of protagonists and writing.
You could literally swap Rey and Finn's genders, races, etc., and nothing in the film would change. The writing is utterly non-biased. Which is a complete triumph.
The Librarian
Banned
What's the first thing Lando says to Leia?
heliosRAzi
Banned
What's the argument again?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It absolutely kills me. Your posts have been on point btw.
"How you doing Chewbacca? Still hanging around with this loser?"
Really weird he said that to Leia though.
Trigonometrize.
Member
Part of why I like ANH better than ESB is all the characters were at the top of their game personality-wise and it made sense for where they were at in their arcs. Han and Leia both had their off moments in Empire or Jedi.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
Biased how?
Well it's a good thing TFA is one of the two exceptions in Disney's arsenal even though this movie is about as safe as it can be, which is fine for the first of the trilogy. I remain a bit skeptical that it will remain the case if what JJ said is true. Is he a big SW fan by any chance?
Trigonometrize.
Member
I don't know for sure but I am guessing yes. He did a Ted Talk and was referencing A New Hope very positively when he talks about how to structure a movie and keep an audience engaged. He also has subtly made it clear he doesn't like some of the production decisions of the prequels, something a Star Wars fan would do IMO.
WadiumArcadium
Member
JJ's been a huge fan since he was a kid.
From a Vanity Fair interview a while back:
Grover Cleveland
Member
Humongous
I've said it before: the worst thing I can say about this movie is that it was made by a SW fanboy. And that's fine to me.
This was when you were suggesting examples of how the force is used 'correctly' and you're framing the discussion that someone is only empowering if they're doing 'right'. Swing ana miss, heidern.
No, it's an insipid way of framing what are underlying psychological processes that happen whether you're 'trained' in something or not. Instincts has nothing to do with your ability to choose anything. What 'training does' is develop certain instincts, but it doesn't have anything to do with 'choice', it's just about how you've lived your life that would shape your ability to do this. Rey didn't choose to live on Jakku, but her life there has forced her to develop in a certain way, so she is a fighter and mechanic and pilot. Rey has trained in the ways how to do the things she did before she, but when that's pointed out, you somehow cry foul when she fulfills the standards you literally just said, just not in the way you wanted them to for whatever reason. Especially when the past films establish that what is required for usage of the force is specifically belief in addition to a general physical regime, which she has demonstrated the capacity for both in the movie because of how she was raised. Rey's choice was in accepting the force and using it to win when she needed to. She did that. And as for the falcon example, she had a choice there too. If she hadn't gone into the zone, so to speak, the force wouldn't have been able to help her. But the fact taht she had training in piloting helped her get into the zone, which let the Force help, even if she didn't know it at the time. But it was her choices that lead her to this.
Swing and a miss.
Statement -> Immediate Contradiction. Swing. Miss.
Especially this part. Oh, he's had training, you say? You mean that single beginners training that he mastered in literally 30 seconds after beginning it? And that is supposed to help him guide the impossible shot?
The other stuff has been well trotted ground I will not repeat just out of sheer tedium. That Luke had other help doesn't change the fact that he used the force to make an impossible shot without using computer sensors after a single bout of beginners training. That other characters were helping him with the other aspects of the death star run is irrelevant to the fact that he's using the force like an expert with barely any introduction to it.
But I do find it notable how you are willing to contextualize the event using all the other factors that help him achieve that affect (even when the factors are so hilariously poor like "I used to snipe roadkill in by redneck backwater village, I can totally handle a military engagement"), while ignoring all the things that Rey got help with, acting like she literally defeated Kylo Ren on her own and no one else's efforts had an influence.
Miss. Swing. Miss.
Personally, I'd just wonder why the fuck I was hearing dead people. Also, you're confusing instructions with training. A guy telling you what to do as your doing it is not training.
The fuck, when was cheerleading established to bolster the force? Ugh, you're making so much shit up, I'm half convinced you dreamed Star Wars rather than saw it.
I'm throwing accusations at you because two posts ago, you were saying you felt it's right for someone to tell a girl who likes Paris Hilton she was wrong and framed it as absurd that a father would not be able to tell his daughter who to like.
It's backtracking.
And the fact that you think making an insipid argument is only possible in a initiatively lauched massive campaign is the kind of poor reasoning I am getting at. You're arguments in general are very, very poor. That they fuction as responses in a forum discussion doesn't take away that your rhetoric is riddled with double standards, contradictions, goal post moving, selective examples, and general nonsense that is both arbitrary and difficult to pin down and therefore discuss rationally.
And this is my last post on the matter. I have sunk way too much time into this. For what it's worth, I don't think you're malicious or anything. You're arguments reveal a significant lack of perspective both in debate tactics and lack of understanding of how sexism functions but I believe you believe you are being fair in your assessment and I am misunderstanding you on some level, and I don't really know how to effectively demonstrate to you how poor your arguments are without you feeling personally insulted and misrepresented. But the arguments are what they are and maybe at some point you'll look at them with a clear head and see that the faults I noted above are there.
QuantumZebra
Member
QuantumZebra
Member
It is interesting to me that these armchair feminist
mansplainers
Could it be ....
ethics?
No need for it to be anything like that. Just someone who is mistaken.
I'll admit to really enjoying ANH Leia's character. Even as she's being rescued she exudes a presence of power, as if she's in control of the entire Death Star much less a prisoner who needs rescued. All the while not coming off as the stereotypical "exasperated female" but instead coming off as a leader.
All of that said, I don't think Lucas did her any favors in ESB or ROTJ... which makes me think that her good (not great) characterization in ANH is more a lucky mistake than anything else.
Rey, in a great way, is diametrically opposed to Leia. The mirroring of her escape from Starkiller Base (compared to Leia's rescue from the Death Star) is beautiful to behold. Can't wait to see what else they do with her.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Leia was at her best in ANH. Han and Luke come to rescue her, and they do, but get trapped, and she ends up rescuing them.
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