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[Interfectum]

Probably because TFA didn't properly inform people of its importance. They mishandled that part.

For now it's mishandled. If they can pick up the fumble in Episode 8 then I think it will probably retroactively help TFA.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Yeah it's a good idea. It would be cool to see Anakin be the teenage boy that we'd all suspect we'd be if we had that power. Cheating at everything, using that power in a stealth way to get ahead. It sounds like it would have been a really fun movie to watch. A way to put ourselves right in Anakin's shoes. A great first act.

Like Peter Parker using his powers to make money. Goddamn, Lucas!

For now it's mishandled. If they can pick up the fumble in Episode 8 then I think it will probably retroactively help TFA.

That's if they pick it up. For now, it's like "they blew up Coruscant?!"

 

[Interfectum]

That's if they pick it up. For now, it's like "they blew up Coruscant?!"

Yeah... at least the deleted scene explaining some of that is most likely gonna be in the disc release of the movie.

 

[Interfectum]

Like Peter Parker using his powers to make money. Goddamn, Lucas!

Pretty much. It would be cool watching it knowing that guy is gonna be evil as fuck in his later years. They could sprinkle glimpses of that throughout. What could have been.

 

[Sesuadra]

Since this took me forever to type out (it's from a magazine called lightspeed, they didn't post the opening interview), I thought I'd post it in two places. It was a fun read for me so I thought others might enjoy it.

That would have been amaaaaazing

 

[Theodoricos]

Since this took me forever to type out (it's from a magazine called lightspeed, they didn't post the opening interview), I thought I'd post it in two places. It was a fun read for me so I thought others might enjoy it.

Thanks for posting this. It really makes me wish that the prequel trilogy had started like that instead of the way it did.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

I like the prequels and that sounds way, way better than Episode I. I don't think Lucas knew what made his original trilogy so appealing.

 

[heliosRAzi]

What could have been.

We got sand. Our Anakin was coarse, irritating, and he gets everywhere (in the trash).

 

[Figboy79]

Probably because TFA didn't properly inform people of its importance. They mishandled that part.

I mean, I guess. I just kind of gleaned it's importance from the movie itself. It was stated in the opening crawl, and in Hux's speech that the Republic was important to the Resistance. Without the Republic, the Resistance was fucked. Now that the Republic is gone, the Resistance is fucked. When Hosnian Prime got blown up in the movie, I was like, "Oh shit. That's not good."

The reason why the Resistance needed to destroy Starkiller base wasn't to "defeat" the First Order, but to save their own skins. The Resistance is on life support after The Force Awakens.

I didn't personally think you needed to have scene after scene of Leia lamenting the loss of the Republic, but I do think there could have been a bit of dialogue during the Starkiller mission briefing scene, where Leia stressed the importance of destroying the base, not for the sake of destroying it, but because the Resistance was now the only thing left to keep the First Order from wiping them out, and by extension, taking over the galaxy like the Empire did. But again, I thought that was implied already in the movie just by the context of the film itself.

 

[The Librarian]

Me and my wife will probably see it for the third time this weekend.

On another note, this is something that I've been really thinking about, but haven't seen much discussion on in this thread:

Despite Rey finding Luke, the ending of the film is really bleak and somber. More specifically, the Resistance actually lost a pretty decisive battle in the long run. The film is set up like this: The First Order is looking for Luke Skywalker, so they can eliminate him. They fear that if found, he can be the deciding factor against the First Order getting a stranglehold on the galaxy and becoming the next Empire (if not in name, then in function). Currently, there seems to be a truce/cease fire in effect between the First Order and the Republic (mentioned by Hux during his Hitler speech), that they believe the Republic is dishonoring by funding the Resistance behind closed doors. They use this as an excuse to nullify the treaty and launch an attack against the Republic.

The thing is, this attack isn't just an attack. The original Death Star's purpose wasn't really to destroy a planet, but to intimidate systems that tried to sass the Empire. It was a big stick they were brandishing. I don't think they'd have really used it unless they absolutely had to. It wasn't until the plans of the Death Star were stolen and delivered to the Rebellion that they used it to blow up Alderaan, in the hopes that it would deter Rebellion. The First Order actually used the Starkiller Base weapon to destroy their enemy. The Republic is gone. It doesn't exist anymore. The politicians, the soldiers, the fleet, it was all wiped out in one fell swoop when Hux issued the order to fire on them.

As it stands, the First Order is no longer opposed bureaucratically. And on the military end, their only opposition is General Leia Organa's Resistance, which, we saw in the movie, is rather pitiful. It seems to consist of a squad of X-Wings lead by Poe (and they lost a few members), and maybe some ground troops. Hardly enough to really put up a front against the First Order, which isn't as big as the Empire, but is significantly bigger than the Resistance.

For me, this sets up an incredibly dark, bleak, and grim tone for Episode's 8 and 9. Sure, the Resistance destroyed the Starkiller, which was more an act of self preservation than a decisive blow against the First Order like the Death Star's destruction was for the Empire (both Death Stars even), because if the Starkiller had destroyed their base, there'd be absolutely no one to oppose the First Order (Leia and all the other Resistance would have been destroyed had Poe's squad not succeeded).

But the point is that the Resistance is pathetically under-prepared to deal with the First Order's military might. The First Order doesn't actually need the Starkiller anymore, since it did it's job (wiped out the Republic). The only hope I see for the Resistance is for Leia to do some mega diplomacy with various Star Systems, in the hopes that they can be convinced to join her cause and strike out against the First Order. I can see episode 8 having Poe and his squad embarking on various guerrilla warfare style campaigns in First Order controlled systems, attempting to dismantle their power behind enemy lines, while Leia is trying to use the return of Luke Skywalker as a means to convince other star systems to fight with her against the Force Order.

I can see those systems being skeptical of Luke, a single Jedi, and an old, tired looking solitary Jedi, being any sort of tide turner for the Resistance. This is where Rey and Luke go on a potential journey to re-establish the Jedi Knights, or at least recruit promising Force Sensitives to train and fight. I can see Episode 9 being an incredibly desperate attempt by the Resistance and whatever allies they have amassed, and Rey and Luke to overthrow the increasingly growing First Order. They will also be fighting against whatever Snoke has planned with Kylo and the Knights of Ren.

This sets up this trilogy to be a lot different and grimmer, and grittier than the first two trilogies. I just hadn't seen a lot of discussion on how bleak the future films actually are in light of the destruction of the Republic in The Force Awakens. I think the obliteration of Hosnian Prime was way more a significant event than it gets credit for.

I, too, hope in the next movie they really get into the consequences of the destruction of the Republic capital. Huge missed story opportunity if they don't.

Though, historically, Star Wars has never handled the consequences of blowing up a planet well. So I wouldn't be surprised if they skipped over the fallout of the destruction of the Hosnian system.

 

[Theodoricos]

I didn't personally think you needed to have scene after scene of Leia lamenting the loss of the Republic, but I do think there could have been a bit of dialogue during the Starkiller mission briefing scene, where Leia stressed the importance of destroying the base, not for the sake of destroying it, but because the Resistance was now the only thing left to keep the First Order from wiping them out, and by extension, taking over the galaxy like the Empire did. But again, I thought that was implied already in the movie just by the context of the film itself.

I don't think that the lack of emphasis after the destruction is the problem, but more that we didn't get any scenes or references to that planet before it was destroyed, and thus its annihilation lacked the impact it needed.

By contrast, Alderaan was mentioned many times and was a clear goal for our heroes in ANH, so when the Death Star destroyed it, it resonated.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I mean, I guess. I just kind of gleaned it's importance from the movie itself. It was stated in the opening crawl, and in Hux's speech that the Republic was important to the Resistance. Without the Republic, the Resistance was fucked. Now that the Republic is gone, the Resistance is fucked. When Hosnian Prime got blown up in the movie, I was like, "Oh shit. That's not good."

I don't think its importance was conveyed all that well even if it was in the opening crawl. On page 1, the Republic is mentioned in the opening crawl. 50 pages later, Hux mentions it while talking to Snoke. Hosnian gets destroyed on 65. The planets destroyed didn't get named until page 74 and it happens so fast, people thought that the planet destroyed was Coruscant. Up until Hux talks about it, the Republic's presence isn't really felt. It was all about the Resistance.

Threepio talks about how they are doomed without the Republic's fleet, but I'm a fan of "show, don't tell." We are told of the fleet, but we never see it. We don't see how powerful it is, or its makeup, or anything like that. It's all relegated to a line.

By contrast, Alderaan was mentioned many times and was a clear goal for our heroes in ANH, so when the Death Star destroyed it, it resonated.

All of this.

 

[The Librarian]

One of the ways Star Wars has treated its female characters like shit was by forcing their emotional problems to take a back seat to that of the male characters.

Leia loses her home, her family, the places she grew up in, her people's history, her friends...

Luke loses an old man that he formed a (deep) friendship with for a few days, but SHE has to console HIM.

Leia loses so much more, but ANH refuses to spend time with her character about it.

Star Wars, man. Treating female characters like shit since 1977.

 

[Demoncarnotaur]

Since this took me forever to type out (it's from a magazine called lightspeed, they didn't post the opening interview), I thought I'd post it in two places. It was a fun read for me so I thought others might enjoy it.

Wow, this is interesting.

It could have led to some cool films, even if they were integrated with Lucas ideas.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Wow, this is interesting.

It could have led to some cool films, even if they were integrated with Lucas ideas.

Yeah, I think Jar Jar could even have been included in that version. If the rest is fun and full of personality, Jar Jar's presence wouldn't have been so egregious. I bet Anakin would be an asshole and bully to him, lol

 

[Boke1879]

I, too, hope in the next movie they really get into the consequences of the destruction of the Republic capital. Huge missed story opportunity if they don't.

Though, historically, Star Wars has never handled the consequences of blowing up a planet well. So I wouldn't be surprised if they skipped over the fallout of the destruction of the Hosnian system.

Yup. Alderaan didn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Sure we knew it was Leia's home planet but it was really just there to showcase the deathstar and some cool special effects to the audience.

 

[-griffy-]

I don't think its importance was conveyed all that well even if it was in the opening crawl. On page 1, the Republic is mentioned in the opening crawl. 50 pages later, Hux mentions it while talking to Snoke. Hosnian gets destroyed on 65. The planets destroyed didn't get named until page 74 and it happens so fast, people thought that the planet destroyed was Coruscant. Up until Hux talks about it, the Republic's presence isn't really felt. It was all about the Resistance.

Threepio talks about how they are doomed without the Republic's fleet, but I'm a fan of "show, don't tell." We are told of the fleet, but we never see it. We don't see how powerful it is, or its makeup, or anything like that. It's all relegated to a line.

We see the fleet get blown up along with the Hosnian system. The destruction of the Republic in the film is kind of just a means to an end to leave the Resistance a small and scrappy group for the end of the film. It's something that should (and hopefully will) have larger repercussions in episode VIII. Both the Republic and the First Order were kind of neutered by the end of The Force Awakens, so that should manifest in Episode VIII in some way.

 

[heliosRAzi]

We see the fleet get blown up along with the Hosnian system.

We do? I thought it was just the planets. Even then, we're seeing the fleet right before it is destroyed is inadequate.

The destruction of the Republic in the film is kind of just a means to an end to leave the Resistance a small and scrappy group for the end of the film.

Yeah, but it could've had some more weight to it than just resetting the playing field.

It's something that should (and hopefully will) have larger repercussions in episode VIII. Both the Republic and the First Order were kind of neutered by the end of The Force Awakens, so that should manifest in Episode VIII in some way.

I hope they do address it in 8 and 9.

By contrast, Alderaan was mentioned many times and was a clear goal for our heroes in ANH, so when the Death Star destroyed it, it resonated.

It was more than just a show of power, it was also the destination for our heroes. It was their goal: reach Alderaan and deliver the plans to Leia's father.

 

[Figboy79]

I, too, hope in the next movie they really get into the consequences of the destruction of the Republic capital. Huge missed story opportunity if they don't.

Though, historically, Star Wars has never handled the consequences of blowing up a planet well. So I wouldn't be surprised if they skipped over the fallout of the destruction of the Hosnian system.

That is true. They tend to gloss over the destruction of planets like it's nothing. I just think in the case of this new trilogy, the loss of the Hosnian system and the Republic is a lot more important. It'd be like if the Death Star managed to wipe out Yavin 4 in A New Hope, and only the fighters that attacked the Death Star were left alive. I 100% believe that we'll be dealing with the aftermath of the destruction of the Republic in Episode 8 and 9.

We do? I thought it was just the planets. Even then, we're seeing the fleet right before it is destroyed is inadequate.


Yeah, but it could've had some more weight to it than just resetting the playing field.


I hope they do address it in 8 and 9.


It was more than just a show of power, it was also the destination for our heroes. It was their goal: reach Alderaan and deliver the plans to Leia's father.

Yes, you see the fleet in the sky above the planet during the shot where the beams split and wipe out the big planet (it's the planet in the foreground of the shot, to the upper left of that is the fleet, you see all of the little ships explode; I think there's a gif of it a few pages back).

It was more than just "resetting the playing field" though. The playing field isn't even an even playing field. The odds are shifted considerably in the favor of the First Order. Before, the First Order was a small fringe group of the Empire that the Republic was able to keep in check because the Republic had become much bigger and more powerful than the First Order. By means we aren't aware of yet (at least in film; I have no idea if the new book series address this), the First Order was able to carve the Starkiller Base into that planet, and they used it to destroy their enemy, now making them much larger than the already smaller Resistance movement. The First Order went from a nuisance to a threat a real threat by the end of The Force Awakens, even thought they lost Starkiller Base. Snoke didn't seem particularly devastated that the base was destroyed. I imagine it has to do with whatever his ultimate plan is. I think he's using the First Order in the same way he's using Kylo Ren, we just don't know why yet.

Don't get me wrong, I understand your desire to feel the importance of the destruction of the Republic, but for better or worse, I think the filmmakers were just trying to set the stage for the state of this new Star Wars galaxy for the new trilogy, and I don't think they wanted to bog the pacing down too much by having cuts to the Republic, or scenes where the characters talk about the Republic. There were some cut scenes of just that, apparently. So maybe we'll get to see them on the Blu Ray release. In either case, I do think the next two films are going to expound on the events of TFA more, specifically what the Resistance is going to do now that they no longer have a Republic to offer them support.

 

[AdventureRacing]

Since this took me forever to type out (it's from a magazine called lightspeed, they didn't post the opening interview), I thought I'd post it in two places. It was a fun read for me so I thought others might enjoy it.

I definitely like the sound of that but at this point I'd rather not hear these things. I can't see the prequels getting remade so I've just accepted them for what they are.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

One of the ways Star Wars has treated its female characters like shit was by forcing their emotional problems to take a back seat to that of the male characters.

Leia loses her home, her family, the places she grew up in, her people's history, her friends...

Luke loses an old man that he formed a (deep) friendship with for a few days, but SHE has to console HIM.

Leia loses so much more, but ANH refuses to spend time with her character about it.

Star Wars, man. Treating female characters like shit since 1977.

Bullshit

it's 1977, so things aren't going to be perfect, but Leia was a drastic change from your typical damsel in distress.

Her home planet was used as a bargain chip, and she still was loyal to the greater good.

Not only that she helped save the people that were coming to save her by finding a way out of the holding cel.

Star Wars set up the opening act like a classic fairy tale story, where the hero goes to save the helpless princess. But before our heroes even manage to get to the princess, the story has already established that the princess is a capable loyal, strong minded woman (who resisted torture), who is more than capable of taking on the Empire as any man.

And she doesn't take shit from anyone. Not a smuggler, a rookie high ranking enemy general, or a Sith Lord.
Leia is a badass for women in 1977

 

[-griffy-]

We do? I thought it was just the planets. Even then, we're seeing the fleet right before it is destroyed is inadequate.

I in fact have gif proof!

 

[heliosRAzi]

Leia loses so much more, but ANH refuses to spend time with her character about it.

Star Wars, man. Treating female characters like shit since 1977.

In ANH's defense, Luke loses his parental figures of 18/19 years and after that, he doesn't mention them at all. And Leia wasn't the primary character of the movie.

Star Wars set up the opening act like a classic fairy tale story, where the hero goes to save the helpless princess. But before our heroes even manage to get to the princess, the story has already established that the princess is a capable loyal, strong minded woman (who resisted torture), who is more than capable of taking on the Empire as any man.

Actually, them rescuing the princess wasn't even their initial goal. They were only going to deliver the plans and that's it. But then they get trapped on the Death Star and that's when they learn that she is on it, so they go rescue her. Rescuing Leia was not on their agenda up until then.

 

[Figboy79]

I in fact have gif proof!

That's such a cool shot. I didn't actually notice the fleet until I saw the film a second time.


EDIT: I agree that Leia '77 is quite a step up from many other female leads in film (fantasy or otherwise), but Librarian's point still stands when you take into account Leia's complete arc in Empire and Jedi. She goes from badass Rebel to a giant ball of weeping emotions by Return of the Jedi. It's really disappointing. In Empire, she's just Han's love interest who nags him about his bucket of bolts ship, and then in Jedi, she prances around in a bikini and kills Jabba, then gets captured by Ewoks and does nothing for the remainder of the film until getting shot in the arm during the Rebel's attempt to disable the shield generator.

I love Leia with a passion, but her character does fall apart towards the end of the trilogy. I think it's why women and little girls are reacting so positively to Rey. She's doing the stuff that the boys in the previous 6 films got to do. It's awesome. She's also more than just an avatar for females to feel empowered by. She's a fully realized character, with her own pros and cons, ambitions and motivations. The Force Awaken's biggest takeaway is how well the three new characters (mainly Rey, Finn, and Kylo) are realized and integrate so well into the Star Wars universe, and existing characters. I'm really looking forward to seeing how Rey interacts with Luke Skywalker in Episode 8.

 

[Theodoricos]

Leia consoled Luke because both of them saw Obi-Wan die, and she knew he was important to him.

Luke, by contrast, had no idea who Leia really was and what her connection with Alderaan might've been before he met her in the prison block. And by then Alderaan had already been destroyed.

If anything, the fact that Leia remained strong after her homeworld was gone speaks volumes about her character. That's one of the reasons why she's badass.

Also, people are forgetting Leia rescuing Luke at the end of Empire and her saving Han twice in Jedi (stormtroopers on Endor, and the carbonite in Jabba's Palace). Though I agree that she's at her best in ANH.

 

[CloudyTuba]

Since this took me forever to type out (it's from a magazine called lightspeed, they didn't post the opening interview), I thought I'd post it in two places. It was a fun read for me so I thought others might enjoy it.

So did you play any part in Star Wars after Return of the Jedi? Did George Lucas ever reach out to you?

Kasdan:He did but you know, he wanted something completely different than before. I know he's been attacked for doing things for reasons such as selling his toys but he really was invested in the politics of the story. He called it the "boring bit". I was never interested in that and that would play a big part.

Were you curious at all?

Kasdan:Not really. I had my own thoughts but they were very different but it's his baby, I can't tell him what to do. His characters will do what they want and that's the story. I said a few things in passing, things I'll tell you, he never even considered to keep in any fashion. Vader would've been Luke's age, living with his brother and using his powers like anyone would. Winning fights, money, being the popular kid. Even if you hate him, you still love him. He's Luke, right, but KNOWS he's special. So I'd have Obiwan crash on this planet, meet this guy and see he's wasting this massive potential on winning money and fame in this desert wasteland. Very humorous you know? In a weird way, that's kind of a scary thought too, unchecked power. The characters can't see it but we as the audience know he's using the force. Using it to do the greedy, human things we'd do with it. The story came to my head because I imagined a scene right after they meet and Anakin is leaving the planet, they're attacked or something, he saves Obiwan's life using his power. They fly off but Obiwan is a bad pilot so in a cocky way, Anakin takes over. Obiwan doesn't thank him, he gets annoyed. That right there is what I would base the movies on, two friends who instantly become close but are going to go down completely different paths. Of course Obiwan acts more like a dad. This is all the first act, the start. The Jedi are also starting to disappear, they're being killed and this organization is bewildered how it's possible...

So you've got this teen, somebody who wants to control everything, he was always in control at home, he was always the kid on top because he had these powers no one knew about and he took advantage of that, why not use those powers to control the Galaxy one day? Jokes like that from him. Hints of that. This would all be done in the first act in part 1. George said it was too much.

George said it was too much. George said it was too much. These are the words I find myself dwelling on.

Sounds like a fantastic start to Episode 1.

 

[Brakke]

ANH Leia walked a fine line. During the escape she's gruff and in charge and orders the two dudes around and has good ideas (like going into the trash chute) but then also Luke carries her for the swing across the gap rescuing-the-damsel style. But also she's icing fools with a blaster. But also they discover her lounging all sexy-like.

Leia subverts some stuff but maybe not decisively enough to wipe out the fanservice-y stuff they use her for.

 

[The Librarian]

Bullshit

it's 1977, so things aren't going to be perfect, but Leia was a drastic change from your typical damsel in distress.

Her home planet was used as a bargain chip, and she still was loyal to the greater good.

Not only that she helped save the people that were coming to save her by finding a way out of the holding cel.

Star Wars set up the opening act like a classic fairy tale story, where the hero goes to save the helpless princess. But before our heroes even manage to get to the princess, the story has already established that the princess is a capable loyal, strong minded woman (who resisted torture), who is more than capable of taking on the Empire as any man.

And she doesn't take shit from anyone. Not a smuggler, a rookie high ranking enemy general, or a Sith Lord.
Leia is a badass for women in 1977

Using "it was the '70s!!!" as a defense doesn't work. Alien came out only two years later.

 

[MutFox]

Y-Wings were obsolete when they being used 30 years ago.

They were being replaced by B-Wing's, as they showed in the prior movie.
Those B-Wings would have been used in the Starkiller assault,
but they weren't even in the movie. (Maybe even updated B-Wings or a different bomber)

If you watch RotJ and TFA back to back, the tech went back to ANH in some ways.
Except that even in ANH, they had Y-Wings.

It's not like X-Wings are that new. The whole distribution of ships in the movie felt wrong, but that's me being a huge nerd for the old X-Wing and Tie Fighter games.

Yep, it's disappointing.
Feels the movie was made for casuals, not the hardcore fan.

Still can't believe there were no TIE Interceptors or TIE Bombers.
TIE Bombers would have probably been used on Jakku. (Or updated TIE vehicles, like the TIE Advanced)

I really enjoyed the new Star Trek films, but I'm not a Star Trek fan.
So maybe now I understand why Trekkie's didn't like JJ doing those films.

 

[ultracal31]

George said it was too much. George said it was too much. These are the words I find myself dwelling on.

Sounds like a fantastic start to Episode 1.

That's the thing that gets me as well, somehow this was considered too much for George who later would say "I may have gone too far in a few places" upon the first viewing of Episode 1...

 

[BocoDragon]

One of the ways Star Wars has treated its female characters like shit was by forcing their emotional problems to take a back seat to that of the male characters.

Leia loses her home, her family, the places she grew up in, her people's history, her friends...

Luke loses an old man that he formed a (deep) friendship with for a few days, but SHE has to console HIM.

Leia loses so much more, but ANH refuses to spend time with her character about it.

Star Wars, man. Treating female characters like shit since 1977.

You are clearly projecting gender politics onto what was a general failure to emotionally reflect on any of the losses in ANH.

Luke didn't give a shit about Owen and Beru dying.
Leia didn't give a shit about Alderaan being destroyed.
Luke gave a shit about Ben dying for a scene that is so short it's essentially designed to cleanse the palette before the next "woo-hoo! Don't get cocky kid" action scene.

On the gender point, Leia in ANH was such a feisty and self-determined character for 1977 that it feels rude to me to shit on it with Millenial gender-enlightened privilege.

 

[sphagnum]

Since this took me forever to type out (it's from a magazine called lightspeed, they didn't post the opening interview), I thought I'd post it in two places. It was a fun read for me so I thought others might enjoy it.

Anakin sounds even more insufferable in this to me than the end result. I'm glad Lucas stuck with his politics bent.

 

[heliosRAzi]

It was more than just "resetting the playing field" though. The playing field isn't even an even playing field. The odds are shifted considerably in the favor of the First Order.

That's what I meant by resetting. Resetting it to ANH's stellarpolitical stage of the big massive Empire and the small Rebels.

Don't get me wrong, I understand your desire to feel the importance of the destruction of the Republic, but for better or worse, I think the filmmakers were just trying to set the stage for the state of this new Star Wars galaxy for the new trilogy

I don't think they were. If they were setting it up, they would've devoted more time to the Republic. Of course, they can pick it up next movie and see where it goes, but I doubt they will.

and I don't think they wanted to bog the pacing down too much by having cuts to the Republic, or scenes where the characters talk about the Republic.

That's the reason why. They didn't want to hurt the pacing, but the pacing, in turn, hurt the impact of that scene.

 

[Driw3r]

Since this took me forever to type out (it's from a magazine called lightspeed, they didn't post the opening interview), I thought I'd post it in two places. It was a fun read for me so I thought others might enjoy it.

I really like that. It could have been good. Thanks.

 

[heliosRAzi]

You are clearly projecting gender politics onto what was a general failure to emotionally reflect on any of the losses in ANH.

Luke didn't give a shit about Owen and Beru dying.
Leia didn't give a shit about Alderaan being destroyed.
Luke gave a shit about Ben dying for a scene that is so short it's essentially designed to cleanse the palette before the next "woo-hoo! Don't get cocky kid" action scene.

Luke and Leia gave a shit about Owen/Beru and Alderaan, respectively. But it was only in the moment, like Luke giving a shit about Obi when he gets killed. After that, they don't reflect upon it.

But yeah, ANH glossed over emotional events pretty easily.

 

[Veelk]

You are clearly projecting gender politics onto what was a general failure to emotionally reflect on any of the losses in ANH.

Luke didn't give a shit about Owen and Beru dying.
Leia didn't give a shit about Alderaan being destroyed.
Luke gave a shit about Ben dying for a scene that is so short it's essentially designed to cleanse the palette before the next "woo-hoo! Don't get cocky kid" action scene.

On the gender point, Leia in ANH was such a feisty and self-determined character for 1977 that it feels rude to me to shit on it with Millenial gender-enlightened privilege.

The process of recognizing what was wrong in the past is part of having gender-enlightenment. It doesn't mean you necessarily have to hate on Leia, but there is no "It was only 1977!" justification.

Especially since progress isn't a linear progression. I took a film class and we analyzed a lot of really early films. And they had a surprising amount of females in positions of power. Women were CEO's and other leaders, and films that centered around questioning the value of looking on women as sexual objects rather than people. It was stuff that would be considered progressive even today.

So what happened? Well, moral guardians who felt the need to protect the public from the harms of nontraditional gender depictions and violence and sex and so on. It's a lot like the comics code, really. That's why you have the 1950's being a time where you depict idealized settings of the nuclear family. But back before the 1930's, film makers ran wild and wrote women Leia would be envious to be written as.

So there really is no excuse. As with most gendered discussion, malice isn't the culprit here. It's ignorance induced by the cultural poison of prejudice. All that's left to do is learn from past mistakes.

 

[BocoDragon]

Luke and Leia gave a shit about Owen/Beru and Alderaan, respectively. But it was only in the moment, like Luke giving a shit about Obi when he gets killed. After that, they don't reflect upon it.

But yeah, ANH glossed over emotional events pretty easily.

Yup. It's almost an excercise in how little you need to show someone in remorse before the next action scene.

Considering that film was designed to be a light-hearted retro pastiche of whizz-bang 1930s Saturday morning serials... It may have been a fine decision at the time.

Now that Its been dragged out into a 40 year old saga, it can be picked apart by critics with entirely different priorities than just having a gas at the drive-in

 

[Anton Sugar]

The process of recognizing what was wrong in the past is part of having gender-enlightenment. It doesn't mean you necessarily have to hate on Leia, but there is no "It was only 1977!" justification.

Especially since progress isn't a linear progression. I took a film class and we analyzed a lot of really early films. And they had a surprising amount of females in positions of power. Women were CEO's and other leaders, and films that centered around questioning the value of looking on women as sexual objects rather than people. It was stuff that would be considered progressive even today.

So what happened? Well, moral guardians who felt the need to protect the public from the harms of nontraditional gender depictions and violence and sex and so on. It's a lot like the comics code, really. That's why you have the 1950's being a time where you depict idealized settings of the nuclear family. But back before the 1930's, film makers ran wild and wrote women Leia would be envious to be written as.

So there really is no excuse. As with most gendered discussion, malice isn't the culprit here. It's ignorance induced by the cultural poison of prejudice. All that's left to do is learn from past mistakes.

 

[Tookay]

One of the ways Star Wars has treated its female characters like shit was by forcing their emotional problems to take a back seat to that of the male characters.

Leia loses her home, her family, the places she grew up in, her people's history, her friends...

Luke loses an old man that he formed a (deep) friendship with for a few days, but SHE has to console HIM.

Leia loses so much more, but ANH refuses to spend time with her character about it.

Star Wars, man. Treating female characters like shit since 1977.

The fact of the matter is that Obi-Wan was a character that the audience knew. His death impacts both Luke and the audience. It's no surprise that the movie dwells on that longer than some planet that we have no connection to.

Now, in real-world logic, it might make the movie seem callous to so casually dismiss the deaths of billions of people. I think there's an argument for that. But in terms of the emotional logic and that of the film's POV, which is grounded in Luke, it makes more sense to mourn Luke's loss than Leia's.

 

[BocoDragon]

The process of recognizing what was wrong in the past is part of having gender-enlightenment. It doesn't mean you necessarily have to hate on Leia, but there is no "It was only 1977!" justification.

Especially since progress isn't a linear progression. I took a film class and we analyzed a lot of really early films. And they had a surprising amount of females in positions of power. Women were CEO's and other leaders, and films that centered around questioning the value of looking on women as sexual objects rather than people. It was stuff that would be considered progressive even today.

So what happened? Well, moral guardians who felt the need to protect the public from the harms of nontraditional gender depictions and violence and sex and so on. It's a lot like the comics code, really. That's why you have the 1950's being a time where you depict idealized settings of the nuclear family. But back before the 1930's, film makers ran wild and wrote women Leia would be envious to be written as.

So there really is no excuse. As with most gendered discussion, malice isn't the culprit here. It's ignorance induced by the cultural poison of prejudice. All that's left to do is learn from past mistakes.

It's so easy to use the politics that we have inherited to beat old media over the head with. And yes, we've inherited it. If you're a 20-something millennial critiquing fluffy entertainment for its gender dynamics, you're not a special snowflake.. It's the basic toolset you've been given by the spirit of our age. And I believe it can be misapplied. We are just as blinded by our own cultural context as they were in 1977.

The lack of reflection on Leia's loss has nothing to do with gender and interpreting it as such is a bias of our era. That film is full of a lack of reflection on loss, afflicting both genders. It's an intentionally fluffy adventure that doesn't want to dwell on downer notes.

 

[The Librarian]

The fact of the matter is that Obi-Wan was a character that the audience knew. His death impacts both Luke and the audience. It's no surprise that the movie dwells on that longer than some planet that we have no connection to.

Now, in real-world logic, it might make the movie seem callous to so casually dismiss the deaths of billions of people. I think there's an argument for that. But in terms of the emotional logic and that of the film's POV, which is grounded in Luke, it makes more sense to mourn Luke's loss than Leia's.

The only problem with this argument is that Alderaan is relevant to LEIA. How she handles the loss of her world is extremely important to her character. We know Obi-Wan, yes, but we also know Leia.

Empire could've tried to rectify this and have her deal with the loss of her planet, but instead she was made into a love interest and given nothing to do.

Oh, Star Wars...

 

[Fencedude]

IIf you're a 20-something millennial critiquing fluffy entertainment for its gender dynamics, you're not a special snowflake.. It's the basic toolset you've been given by the spirit of our age. And I believe it can be misapplied. We are just as blinded by our own cultural context as they were in 1977.

Damn, and here I thought I was being special and wonderful for believing that women are people too!

 

[The Librarian]

It's so easy to use the politics that we have inherited to beat old media over the head with. And yes, we've inherited it. If you're a 20-something millennial critiquing fluffy entertainment for its gender dynamics, you're not a special snowflake.. It's the basic toolset you've been given by the spirit of our age. And I believe it can be misapplied. We are just as blinded by our own cultural context as they were in 1977.

The lack of reflection on Leia's loss has nothing to do with gender and interpreting it as such is a bias of our era. That film is full of a lack of reflection on loss, afflicting both genders. It's an intentionally fluffy adventure that doesn't want to dwell on downer notes.

My bias is my experience living as a woman.

 

[Veelk]

It's so easy to use the politics that we have inherited to beat old media over the head with. And yes, we've inherited it. If you're a 20-something millennial critiquing fluffy entertainment for its gender dynamics, you're not a special snowflake.. It's the basic toolset you've been given by the spirit of our age. And I believe it can be misapplied. We are just as blinded by our own cultural context as they were in 1977.

I don't disagree. I just don't see why that is cause to not critique it. I'm not beating SW over the head, I'm not saying it's shit or whatever. I'm simply pointing to the mistakes it's made from the perspective of someone from a generation that is aware they're mistakes now.

The whole point of progress is that the we are no longer using the standards we once did because ours are better. In 40 years time, I full expect the next generation to critique us for our lack of transgender representation. They'll be right to. In an generation that is making a push for the better treatment of various kinds of minorities, trans people other than the Catelyn Jenner incident are probably the ones getting the least push, and we're wrong not to do that. And in a hundred years time, when we create artificial intelligence, we'll have a lot of prejudice against that, before another hundred years down the line or however many, assuming they don't kill us all, that generation will be laughing at how dumb the previous generation was for having such biases against AI, while praising us for our forward thinking mentality today of having a fair balance of good and bad AI in our fiction because we don't actually have to worry about them killing us for now.

Welcome to progress. It's an up and down rollercoaster that gives us different perspectives as we go on, and we do well to learn from it. That doesn't mean we live in our own bubbles where what we're doing wrong can't be considered wrong. It's just how it all works.

The lack of reflection on Leia's loss has nothing to do with gender and interpreting it as such is a bias of our era.

And as far as the actual mourning of Alderan, I feel you're missing the point. True, everyone's tragedies just kind of get shuffled along.

But we still focus on Luke's journey and Han's Journey throughout the films. Luke's emotional catharsis is not just in losing Obiwan, but regaining him, and having him see him through on his Jedi journey. I don't think there is much to be debated that the story that isn't focused on Luke is focused on Han, who's emotional focus is his love of Leia.

Leia...is just flat out not that focused on. She rarely owns the scene she's in. Whereas Luke got that one scene of mourning Obiwan, she didn't get anything except a look of fear as her home got blowed up, but nothing afterwards. And in the final run of ANH, despite that she is supposedly a main character, she hangs back while Luke and Han participate in it themselves.

Which isn't to say she NEVER gets to own the scene, but it's rare. Much rarer than with Han or Luke. Or even Lando, if we're including RotJ. And that's the issue.

My experience as a human tells me that all of the reflections on loss in ANH are inadequate compared to real life grieving. I think it's bizzare to make it about gender when that quality of the film affects multiple characters of either gender.

Ah, the classic "I don't see color" argument, except for gender.

 

[BocoDragon]

My bias is my experience living as a woman.

My experience as a human tells me that all of the reflections on loss in ANH are inadequate compared to real life grieving. I think it's bizzare to make it about gender when that quality of the film affects multiple characters of either gender.

 

[LegendofLex]

The lack of reflection on Leia's loss has nothing to do with gender and interpreting it as such is a bias of our era. That film is full of a lack of reflection on loss, afflicting both genders. It's an intentionally fluffy adventure that doesn't want to dwell on downer notes.

The decision not to reflect on Leia's loss wasn't an intentional decision made by the creators of Star Wars because Leia was a woman, no.

But Leia comforting Luke when Obi-Wan died... you don't think that of all the characters in the film, she was chosen for this role because of her gender? Why is the female character the only one built up as being capable of being nurturing and comforting? Couldn't it have just as easily been 3PO or R2, even if Han and Chewie are seen as inappropriate?

And you don't think that isn't a gendered archetype that has been repeated across many many different pieces of cultural literature, in film and outside it? You don't think that women being constantly placed in positions where they are comforters to men, when the reverse is almost never true, represents some kind of systemic issue with the way gendered characters are wielded in storytelling?

That's ultimately the big problem with how Leia is depicted in the OT. She's more often than not:

- A woman to be sexually objectified by the male characters (Luke "she's beautiful", Lando "well, what have we here", the entire Jabba slave sequence)
- A woman who is ill-tempered, moody, and naggy toward the male characters (in this case, pretty much just Han, in both ANH and early ESB)
- A damsel in distress who needs to be saved by a man (Death Star in ANH, Hoth/Bespin in ESB, Jabba's Palace in ROTJ, Luke lashing out at Vader when he threatens her in ROTJ)

She has other traits that make her strong, but her position of importance as a driver of the story and the inter-character tension almost always boils down to one of those three gender archetypes.

 

[Tookay]

The only problem with this argument is that Alderaan is relevant to LEIA. How she handles the loss of her world is extremely important to her character. We know Obi-Wan, yes, but we also know Leia.

Empire could've tried to rectify this and have her deal with the loss of her planet, but instead she was made into a love interest and given nothing to do.

Oh, Star Wars...

But it isn't relevant to the audience.

From a storywriting and story economy perspective, there is a limited amount of screentime that can be devoted to mourning in a pulpy, fast-moving serial adventure. That time is better spent mourning the character we know (and that the main character also cares about), as opposed to the planet we don't.

This isn't a gender thing. It's about properly emphasizing emotional beats, pacing, and moving the protagonist's journey along. They made the right call to pause the film and focus its emotional weight on Ben and Luke, the mentor/protagonist, not the third most important character and her faceless home planet.

 

[Fencedude]

My experience as a human tells me that all of the reflections on loss in ANH are inadequate compared to real life grieving. I think it's bizzare to make it about gender when that quality of the film affects multiple characters of either gender.

You just can't help it can you

 

[heliosRAzi]

But it isn't relevant to the audience.

From a storywriting and story economy perspective, there is a limited amount of screentime that can be devoted to mourning in a pulpy, fast-moving serial adventure. That time is better spent mourning the character we know (and that the main character also cares about), as opposed to the planet we don't.

This isn't a gender thing. It's about properly emphasizing emotional beats, pacing, and moving the protagonist's journey along. They made the right call to pause the film and focus its emotional weight on Ben and Luke, the mentor/protagonist, not the third most important character and her faceless home planet.

Basically, the story isn't about Leia. It's about Luke.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

The only problem with this argument is that Alderaan is relevant to LEIA. How she handles the loss of her world is extremely important to her character. We know Obi-Wan, yes, but we also know Leia.

Empire could've tried to rectify this and have her deal with the loss of her planet, but instead she was made into a love interest and given nothing to do.

Oh, Star Wars...

Thats the thing, Alderan isnt relevant to the viewer. The viewer knows Obi and Luke. Alderan is literally a plot device used to show how evil the Empire is. Thats all to it. Just like The 5 planets blown up in TFA are a device to show how evil the First Order are. And despite the Republic being important to the rebels in TFA, time isnt spent dawdling on that point.

Likewise when Han dies, Leia is given a scene where she "feels" his death because like Kenobi and Luke, both Leia and Han are important to the audience.