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[Trigonometrize.]

The only problem with this argument is that Alderaan is relevant to LEIA. How she handles the loss of her world is extremely important to her character. We know Obi-Wan, yes, but we also know Leia.

Empire could've tried to rectify this and have her deal with the loss of her planet, but instead she was made into a love interest and given nothing to do.

Oh, Star Wars...

The destruction of Alderan was about establishing the Empire's character and not giving Leia something to deal with. It works much better at giving her even more motivation to leading the Rebellion to destroy the death star and then eventually the Empire altogether than as a genuine character moment given that Star Wars is about the characters we, the aduience know and care about, interacting anyway IMO. Leia and Alderan do not fall into that.

If Leia was a male character they would've handled this just the same. No one will connect with Leia grieving over Alderan like Luke grieving over Obi-wan, regardless of gender.

 

[Veelk]

But it isn't relevant to the audience.

From a storywriting and story economy perspective, there is a limited amount of screentime that can be devoted to mourning in a pulpy, fast-moving serial adventure. That time is better spent mourning the character we know (and that the main character also cares about), as opposed to the planet we don't.

This isn't a gender thing. It's about properly emphasizing emotional beats, pacing, and moving the protagonist's journey along. They made the right call to pause the film and focus its emotional weight on Ben and Luke, the mentor/protagonist, not the third most important character and her faceless home planet.

Basically, the story isn't about Leia. It's about Luke.

Thats the thing, Alderan isnt relevant to the viewer. The viewer knows Obi and Luke. Alderan is literally a plot device used to show how evil the Empire is. Thats all to it. Just like The 5 planets blown up in TFA are a device to show how evil the First Order are. And despite the Republic being important to the rebels in TFA, time isnt spent dawdling on that point.

Likewise when Han dies, Leia is given a scene where she "feels" his death because like Kenobi and Luke, both Leia and Han are important to the audience.

The destruction of Alderan was about establishing the Empire's character and not giving Leia something to deal with. It works much better at giving her even more motivation to leading the Rebellion to destroy the death star and then eventually the Empire altogether then as a genuine character moment given that Star Wars is about the characters we, the aduience know and care about, interacting anyway IMO.

What each of these replies are basically saying "The only representational character of women was marginalized for a storytelling reason".

This doesn't make much sense because SW isn't Luke's story, it's the story of everyone that appears in it. Luke is the focal point, but not the only point, because a story in which only one character matters is typically not a very good story. If this argument were true, why did Han get his own scene shooting Greedo? Why did we spend time with Obiwan confronting Vader instead of just getting Luke's last minute perspective of Obiwan being struck down? A 30 second scene of Leia looking longingly at the empty space that used to be Alderan would not have driven the movie off the rails by any means and it is ridiculous to argue so.

However, lets assume the excuse is legitimate. "Leia is marginalized for a nongender reason". You're still having to deal with the fact that women (or rather, the only woman) are marginalized in Star Wars. Which is the crux of sexism. It isn't about why it happens, it's that it happens.

 

[Surfinn]

Finn's confession is a fantastic track.

 

[MutFox]

Thats the thing, Alderan isnt relevant to the viewer. The viewer knows Obi and Luke. Alderan is literally a plot device used to show how evil the Empire is. Thats all to it. Just like The 5 planets blown up in TFA are a device to show how evil the First Order are. And despite the Republic being important to the rebels in TFA, time isnt spent dawdling on that point.

Likewise when Han dies, Leia is given a scene where she "feels" his death because like Kenobi and Luke, both Leia and Han are important to the audience.

Also in TFA, Leia hugs Rey at the end, only the 2 females feel the death of Han.
Leia should have hugged Chewie as they both lost someone huge in their life.

Though no, Chewie just walks by her as if nothing happened.

TFA is Speciest.

 

[LegendofLex]

Also in TFA, Leia hugs Rey at the end, only the 2 females feel the death of Han.
Leia should have hugged Chewie as they both lost someone huge in their life.

Though no, Chewie just walks by her as if nothing happened.

TFA is Speciest.

Chewie already reacted to Han's death by putting a bowcaster bolt in the perp's chest.

Chewie is a true American hero.

What each of these replies are basically saying "The only representational character of women was marginalized for a storytelling reason".

This doesn't make much sense because SW isn't Luke's story, it's the story of everyone that appears in it. Luke is the focal point, but not the only point, because a story in which only one character matters is typically not a very good story. A 30 second scene of Leia looking longingly at the empty space that used to be Alderan would not have driven the movie off the rails by any means.

However, lets assume the excuse is legitimate. "Leia is marginalized for a nongender reason". You're still having to deal with the fact that women (or rather, the only woman) are marginalized in Star Wars. Which is the crux of sexism. It isn't about why it happens, it's that it happens.

I think there's a simpler explanation: old Star Wars didn't make room for women to be the central character of the story, so the token women in each of the trilogies never wind up being explored with any of the depth given to the male characters.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

What each of these replies are basically saying "The only representational character of women was marginalized for a storytelling reason".

This doesn't make much sense because SW isn't Luke's story, it's the story of everyone that appears in it. Luke is the focal point, but not the only point, because a story in which only one character matters is typically not a very good story. A 30 second scene of Leia looking at the empty space that used to be Alderan would not have driven the movie off the rails by any means.

However, lets assume the excuse is legitimate. "Leia is marginalized for a nongender reason". You're still having to deal with the fact that women (or rather, the only woman) are marginalized in Star Wars. Which is the crux of sexism. It isn't about why it happens, it's that it happens.

I don't deny that Leia was weak across the whole trilogy and that that really sucks, just that no one would give a shit about Leia grieving over Alderan given that all Alderan was to us was a green ball that Leia grew up on. It isn't nearly as strong as Obi-wan teaching Luke about the force and then personally being killed by Vader and would look silly next to it.

 

[BocoDragon]

The decision not to reflect on Leia's loss wasn't an intentional decision made by the creators of Star Wars because Leia was a woman, no.

But Leia comforting Luke when Obi-Wan died... you don't think that of all the characters in the film, she was chosen for this role because of her gender? Why is the female character the only one built up as being capable of being nurturing and comforting? Couldn't it have just as easily been 3PO or R2, even if Han and Chewie are seen as inappropriate?

And you don't think that isn't a gendered archetype that has been repeated across many many different pieces of cultural literature, in film and outside it? You don't think that women being constantly placed in positions where they are comforters to men, when the reverse is almost never true, represents some kind of systemic issue with the way gendered characters are wielded in storytelling?

Oh.. I actually agree with this. Leia is used in that scene to comfort Luke because she's a woman. It's the shortest distance to communicate "Luke is consoled by someone.. Aaand battle scene". They'd probably pick her for the role even in the 2010s. Women are the go-to consolers in popular media. I'm sure that's something to be critical of. It'd also be hard to shed, given that it plays on motherly connotations of femininity.

But as to why there isn't a similar scene for Leia and Alderaan, I'd still point to Luke losing Owen and Beru. This movie doesn't care about remorse... Even for the hero of the story. Even Luke being consoled over Ben is merely a pallette-cleanser to say "yeah this hero died... Next action scene".

Damn, and here I thought I was being special and wonderful for believing that women are people too!

You just can't help it can you

Great contributions.

 

[Veelk]

I don't deny that Leia was weak across the whole trilogy, just that no one would give a shit about Leia grieving over Alderan given that all Alderan was to us was a green ball that Leia grew up on. It isn't nearly as strong as Obi-wan teaching Luke about the force and then personally being killed by Vader and would look silly next to it.

I disagree with that a lot, actually. It doesn't matter that we don't see Alderan, we see Leia. If we care about Leia, then her grief is palpatable to us. That's how empathy works. We don't need to care about what she cares about to want to not see her sad.

No, it probably wouldn't have been the most powerful scene in the movie, but it might have been as strong as Han shooting Greedo or Obiwan's private confrontation with Vader. Something to make a scene of Leia's own, so her fundamental character traits are depicted. It could have even been an empowering scene. She looks at an empty space, before one of her generals or whatever comes up to her. "Ma'am? What are our orders?...Ma'am?" Leia turns to him, her back straight, and she tells them their next course of action.

Something as simple as that. Shows us whats going on in Leia emotionally. It doesn't need to be the most powerful thing ever, it just needs to be something.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Also in TFA, Leia hugs Rey at the end, only the 2 females feel the death of Han.

Leia should have hugged Chewie as they both lost someone huge in their life.

Though no, Chewie just walks by her as if nothing happened.

TFA is Speciest.

This is okay though.

Chewie is following Finn, who was injured and who he was looking after; he carries him to the medical cart and then follows it. Finn took care of Chewie earlier in the film, Chewie was doing likewise. Later, Chewie is seen in the Falcon, mourning. He gets his moments of both rage and grief.

At that time, Chewie, Rey and Leia are the only characters who know Han is dead. Thus the poignant shot of everyone else celebrating while they embrace and grieve together - the victory is bittersweet in that moment for them, and only them. (Ren's observation from the mind control scene that Rey sees Han as someone who could be the father she never had adds context to her grief.)

 

[Tookay]

The decision not to reflect on Leia's loss wasn't an intentional decision made by the creators of Star Wars because Leia was a woman, no.

But Leia comforting Luke when Obi-Wan died... you don't think that of all the characters in the film, she was chosen for this role because of her gender? Why is the female character the only one built up as being capable of being nurturing and comforting? Couldn't it have just as easily been 3PO or R2, even if Han and Chewie are seen as inappropriate?

And you don't think that isn't a gendered archetype that has been repeated across many many different pieces of cultural literature, in film and outside it? You don't think that women being constantly placed in positions where they are comforters to men, when the reverse is almost never true, represents some kind of systemic issue with the way gendered characters are wielded in storytelling?

Because she's the only human character left in the ensemble at that point in the narrative to deliver empathy. Han is not emotionally available, Ben is dead, and the droids are robots (who, while expressing some human qualities aren't the best surrogates for human connection).

I'm confused what the point here is. Are we saying that any time a woman in media goes and comforts somebody in their grief that it's automatically part of a systemic trope that is (therefore) bad?

That's ultimately the big problem with how Leia is depicted in the OT. She's more often than not:

- A woman to be sexually objectified by the male characters (Luke "she's beautiful", Lando "well, what have we here", the entire Jabba slave sequence)
- A woman who is ill-tempered, moody, and naggy toward the male characters (in this case, pretty much just Han, in both ANH and early ESB)
- A damsel in distress who needs to be saved by a man (Death Star in ANH, Hoth/Bespin in ESB, Jabba's Palace in ROTJ, Luke lashing out at Vader when he threatens her in ROTJ)

She has other traits that make her strong, but her position of importance as a driver of the story and the inter-character tension almost always boils down to one of those three gender archetypes.

Except the movie often subverts each of these supposed archetypes.

For example, the ill-tempered/moody/nagginess is also reflected in Han, who exhibits much of the same behavior throughout ANH and especially ESB. It's part of each character's banter and chemistry. He's especially emotional and prone to mood swings, from the first conversation in the hallway on Hoth to the Falcon, where he's being completely unfair to Leia. I'm not sure why you decided to selectively pick up on Leia's characterization but ignore the person she's playing off of.

The "rescue" characterization is similarly undercut by the fact that Leia is resourceful and capable in almost all the situations where characters presume she needs rescuing. She takes charge in the ANH escape. She fights her way out of the ESB Cloud City escape. She kills Jabba when the plan has to go into effect.

And in the last two, they aren't even ostensibly about rescuing Leia anyway. Luke explicitly goes to Cloud City because his FRIENDS (plural, referring to Han AND Leia) are in trouble. The plan at Jabba's is to rescue HAN, not Leia.

 

[LegendofLex]

Oh.. I actually agree with this. Leia is used in that scene to comfort Luke because she's a woman. It's the shortest distance to communicate "Luke is consoled by someone.. Aaand battle scene". They'd probably pick her for the role even in the 2010s. Women are the go-to consolers in popular media. I'm sure that's something to be critical of. It'd also be hard to shed, given that it plays on motherly connotations of femininity.

This is why the go-to reaction for many people about the way Rey is wielded in TFA is that she's a much better female character than the creators ever aspired for Leia to be, and why so many people are violently against the idea that her character arc be somehow subverted so she's less of a hero than Luke was.

Because she's the only human character left in the ensemble at that point in the narrative to deliver empathy. Han is not emotionally available, Ben is dead, and the droids are robots (who, while expressing some human qualities aren't the best surrogates for human connection).

I've already expressed agreement about Han and Chewie.

Ben is dead but conveniently able to communicate with Luke at will despite this.

3PO and R2 both are wielded as sources of empathy in other films, so I'm not really sure why they couldn't have been here.

Except the movie often subverts each of these supposed archetypes.

For example, the ill-tempered/moody/nagginess is also reflected in Han, who exhibits much of the same behavior throughout ANH and especially ESB. It's part of each character's banter and chemistry. He's especially emotional and prone to mood swings, from the first conversation in the hallway on Hoth to the Falcon, where he's being completely unfair to Han. I'm not sure why you decided to selectively pick up on Leia's characterization but ignore the person who she's playing off of.

That's fair, but his mood swings are always brought about by the presence of an ill-tempered woman, which just adds another stereotype on top of things.

The "rescue" characterization is similarly undercut by the fact that Leia is resourceful and capable in almost all the situations where characters presume she needs rescuing. She takes charge in the ANH escape. She fights her way out of the ESB Cloud City escape.

And in the last two, they aren't even ostensibly about rescuing Leia anyway. Luke explicitly goes to Cloud City because his FRIENDS (plural, referring to Han AND Leia) are in trouble. The plan at Jabba's is to rescue HAN, not Leia.

Leia is always captured, and never begins to execute an escape until a male hero architects it (Luke opening her cell in ANH; Lando engineering their rescue in ESB; Luke causing chaos on the sail barge in ROTJ).

cf. Rey, who is always either capable of saving herself or is well underway at doing so before the male heroes show up.

 

[Anton Sugar]

This is okay though.

Chewie is following Finn, who was injured and who he was looking after; he carries him to the medical cart and then follows it. Finn took care of Chewie earlier in the film, Chewie was doing likewise. Later, Chewie is seen in the Falcon, mourning. He gets his moments of both rage and grief.

At that time, Chewie, Rey and Leia are the only characters who know Han is dead. Thus the poignant shot of everyone else celebrating while they embrace and grieve together - the victory is bittersweet in that moment for them, and only them. (Ren's observation from the mind control scene that Rey sees Han as someone who could be the father she never had adds context to her grief.)

Honestly, I would have been okay with the non-hug if Chewie isn't taking up, like, a third of the frame as he walks by Leia. The way it was framed, it really accentuates Chewie just ignoring Leia, whereas before she gave him a big hug upon seeing him.

 

[LegendofLex]

Honestly, I would have been okay with the non-hug if Chewie isn't taking up, like, a third of the frame as he walks by Leia. The way it was framed, it really accentuates Chewie just ignoring Leia, whereas before she gave him a big hug upon seeing him.

Yeah. I might have liked it better if Chewie and Rey were both following Finn's medical transport at first, but then Rey breaks down (or just freezes like she does in the film) and that's when Leia shows up.

As it stands Chewie might as well have not been in the scene and it feels like they've shoved him out of the grief-sharing equation.

 

[Tookay]

What each of these replies are basically saying "The only representational character of women was marginalized for a storytelling reason".

This doesn't make much sense because SW isn't Luke's story, it's the story of everyone that appears in it. Luke is the focal point, but not the only point, because a story in which only one character matters is typically not a very good story. If this argument were true, why did Han get his own scene shooting Greedo? Why did we spend time with Obiwan confronting Vader instead of just getting Luke's last minute perspective of Obiwan being struck down? A 30 second scene of Leia looking longingly at the empty space that used to be Alderan would not have driven the movie off the rails by any means and it is ridiculous to argue so.

However, lets assume the excuse is legitimate. "Leia is marginalized for a nongender reason". You're still having to deal with the fact that women (or rather, the only woman) are marginalized in Star Wars. Which is the crux of sexism. It isn't about why it happens, it's that it happens.

This doesn't make any sense, Veelk. It's Luke's story. Every quote from Lucas in that era makes it apparent that it's Luke's story (heck, it was going to be called the Adventures of Luke Skywalker at some point(. Luke is the one who undergoes the explicit Hero's Journey, not anybody else. He is the main character and undergoes the most character development. Han and Leia are important, but Star Wars is not their story.

To address the argument about "then why do they focus on Han when he shoots Greedo" or "Leia longingly looks at Alderaan," this is a completely disingenuous interpretation of what I'm saying. By saying that the story is Luke's, it is not an argument that you cannot have other characters or have the story ever shift over to them temporarily. It is saying that the vast majority of the focus, development, and emotional weight is on Luke. He is the POV character: our entry into the state of the universe, the Force, the moral message of the films, and the final confrontation with the Emperor, Vader, and the dark side. Everybody else is incidental. That's why it is HIS story.

If we applied your logic that Star Wars (at least the OT) was everybody's story to other films, ad absurdum, then every film would be everybody's story, as long as they intersected with the main character.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Honestly, I would have been okay with the non-hug if Chewie isn't taking up, like, a third of the frame as he walks by Leia. The way it was framed, it really accentuates Chewie just ignoring Leia, whereas before she gave him a big hug upon seeing him.

Yup. Chewie should've just got on the flatbed with Finn and it would've been fine. Chewie not only sees Han die but he tries to kill Kylo, Han and Leia's kid. Completely awkward he just casually walks by Leia.

 

[Alienous]

Kylo Solo.

Ben Ren.

I guess he really did have no other option than to change both names.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

Because she's the only human character left in the ensemble at that point in the narrative to deliver empathy. Han is not emotionally available, Ben is dead, and the droids are robots (who, while expressing some human qualities aren't the best surrogates for human connection).

I'm confused what the point here is. Are we saying that any time a woman in media goes and comforts somebody in their grief that it's automatically part of a systemic trope that is (therefore) bad?



Except the movie often subverts each of these supposed archetypes.

For example, the ill-tempered/moody/nagginess is also reflected in Han, who exhibits much of the same behavior throughout ANH and especially ESB. It's part of each character's banter and chemistry. He's especially emotional and prone to mood swings, from the first conversation in the hallway on Hoth to the Falcon, where he's being completely unfair to Leia. I'm not sure why you decided to selectively pick up on Leia's characterization but ignore the person she's playing off of.

The "rescue" characterization is similarly undercut by the fact that Leia is resourceful and capable in almost all the situations where characters presume she needs rescuing. She takes charge in the ANH escape. She fights her way out of the ESB Cloud City escape. She kills Jabba when the plan has to go into effect.

And in the last two, they aren't even ostensibly about rescuing Leia anyway. Luke explicitly goes to Cloud City because his FRIENDS (plural, referring to Han AND Leia) are in trouble. The plan at Jabba's is to rescue HAN, not Leia.

Couldn't have said it better.

It's like they read a wiki of the OT instead of actually watching them to see how they fully played out.

Honestly, I would have been okay with the non-hug if Chewie isn't taking up, like, a third of the frame as he walks by Leia. The way it was framed, it really accentuates Chewie just ignoring Leia, whereas before she gave him a big hug upon seeing him.

Maybe he felt responsible, or wish he could have done more, so he didn't feel like "hugging it out"? You wouldn't like me when I'm sad...

 

[heliosRAzi]

What each of these replies are basically saying "The only representational character of women was marginalized for a storytelling reason".

She's not the main character. It's not about her.

This doesn't make much sense because SW isn't Luke's story, it's the story of everyone that appears in it.

So it's Greedo's story? Uncle Owen's story? PORKINS' STORY?! I refuse to believe it's about Porkins.

 

[Theodoricos]

So it's Greedo's story? Uncle Owen's story? PORKINS' STORY?! I refuse to believe it's about Porkins.

Of course not. Clearly it's about the guy with the death sentence in 12 systems.

 

[Zabka]

She's not the main character. It's not about her.

So it's Greedo's story? Uncle Owen's story? PORKINS' STORY?! I refuse to believe it's about Porkins.

JJ fucked up. Grunberg should have been Porkins' kid. The whole saga is really about the Porkins family.

 

[Veelk]

This doesn't make any sense, Veelk. It's Luke's story. Every quote from Lucas in that era makes it apparent that it's Luke's story (heck, it was going to be called the Adventures of Luke Skywalker at some point(. Luke is the one who undergoes the explicit Hero's Journey, not anybody else. He is the main character and undergoes the most character development. Han and Leia are important, but Star Wars is not their story.

To address the argument about "then why do they focus on Han when he shoots Greedo" or "Leia longingly looks at Alderaan," this is a completely disingenuous interpretation of what I'm saying. By saying that the story is Luke's, it is not an argument that you cannot have other characters or have the story ever shift over to them temporarily. It is saying that the vast majority of the focus, development, and emotional weight is on Luke. He is the POV character: our entry into the state of the universe, the Force, the moral message of the films, and the final confrontation with the Emperor, Vader, and the dark side. Everybody else is incidental. That's why it is HIS story.

If we applied your logic that Star Wars (at least the OT) was everybody's story to other films, ad absurdum, then every film would be everybody's story, as long as they intersected with the main character.

You and others were using the argument that this being Luke's story means there is no way for the narrative to shift focus to look at Leia's perspective, when that's exactly what it can do. By your own admission, this is the case as the narrative is infact does shift to other characters when appropriate. And you're argument is that he's the only one whose feelings matter? No.

Saying it's Luke's story is just a shorthand way of saying Luke is the main character, but that in no way doesn't mean that he's the only character that has an arc or is important, and if he's not, then that means other characters deserve scenes to themselves to effectively communicate what is going on with their characters. Which, obstensively, the film agrees with. Obiwan gets emotional weight beyond his relevance to Luke. Even if the after math of Alderan's destruction doesn't get emotional weight, the threating scene of it does with Leia's panic. Therefore, having some scene of Leia mourning is not unreasonable to ask for. Being the main character doesn't mean that Luke is the only recipient of emotional weight. Again, if this were true, Obiwan and Vader would not have a conversation, because there is no relevance to their past and emotional resolution to Luke.

 

[Tookay]

I've already expressed agreement about Han and Chewie.

Ben is dead but conveniently able to communicate with Luke at will despite this.

3PO and R2 both are wielded as sources of empathy in other films, so I'm not really sure why they couldn't have been here.]

I think these arguments essentially amount to the fact that you have issues with the logic of the film, as it would apply in a real-world. True, Ben can speak to Luke seemingly whenever he wants. If this was not a movie, it might make sense he could talk to Luke while he's down in the dumps.

But it doesn't make narrative or emotional sense for Ben's disembodied spirit voice to comfort a character who needs a physical connection after a loss, or for the film to demonstrate that he can basically do it at any time (otherwise there's no sense of loss at all, because the audience expects that he will always be present - the mystery of when he will appear to guide Luke keeps tension in the narrative). Thus, Leia at that point in the film is best positioned to console Luke. Plus, it also enhances our understanding of her character, because it shows that she cares for and respects the main character. (And, yes, showing a protagonist - male or female - as warm, empathetic, and relatable is a desirable storytelling goal).

That's fair, but his mood swings are always brought about by the presence of an ill-tempered woman, which just adds another stereotype on top of things.

Leia is always captured, and never begins to execute an escape until a male hero architects it (Luke opening her cell in ANH; Lando engineering their rescue in ESB; Luke causing chaos on the sail barge in ROTJ).

cf. Rey, who is always either capable of saving herself or is well underway at doing so before the male heroes show up.

But in 2/3rds of those instances, Han is ALSO captured. In ESB, Han is captured on Cloud City, leading to Luke (initially, before he gets sidetracked by Vader) and Leia trying to rescue him. In ROTJ, Han is captured in Jabba, which necessitates the whole crazy plan to infiltrate his palace in the first place.

I'll give you ANH, but even then, the movie does smart things to show that Leia isn't helpless.

 

[Veelk]

But in 2/3rds of those instances, Han is ALSO captured. In ESB, Han is captured on Cloud City, leading to Luke (initially, before he gets sidetracked by Vader) and Leia trying to rescue him. In ROTJ, Han is captured in Jabba, which necessitates the whole crazy plan to infiltrate his palace in the first place.

When your looking at gender representation, you're not looking at merely the individual instances, but the whole population.

Of the named SW characters, there's Obiwan, Yoda, Luke, Han, Lando, Vader, Boba Fett,etc....making Han comprise lets say 5% of the male population, though it's probably less if we look at just every character that appears. So him getting captured isn't really representative of him as a man, because another man captured him, and another man is rescuing him, and there are a bunch of other men doing a bunch of other stuff. Leia, however, is representative of 100% of the female characters in the film. And she just gets captured. And she fails in rescuing him. See the issue?

TFA already would never have this problem even if things worked out the same exact way they did in ESP, simply because Rey is firmly established not to be the only female in the galaxy, so representation is not all on her.

 

[Tookay]

You and others were using the argument that this being Luke's story means there is no way for the narrative to shift focus to look at Leia's perspective, when that's exactly what it can do. By your own admission, this is the case as the narrative is infact does shift to other characters when appropriate. And you're argument is that he's the only one whose feelings matter? No.

Saying it's Luke's story is just a shorthand way of saying Luke is the main character, but that in no way doesn't mean that he's the only character that has an arc or is important, and if he's not, then that means other characters deserve scenes to themselves to effectively communicate what is going on with their characters. Which, obstensively, the film agrees with. Obiwan gets emotional weight beyond his relevance to Luke. Even if the after math of Alderan's destruction doesn't get emotional weight, the threating scene of it does with Leia's panic. Therefore, having some scene of Leia mourning is not unreasonable to ask for. Being the main character doesn't mean that Luke is the only recipient of emotional weight. Again, if this were true, Obiwan and Vader would not have a conversation, because there is no relevance to their past and emotional resolution to Luke.

It can do that. It can do a lot of things.

I'm arguing for the idea that, in a fast-moving zippy pulp sci-fi adventure film that doesn't linger on death for too long, the time best spent towards mourning - and therefore slowing down said zippiness - goes to Luke, the main character of the piece. Having two characters grieve back to back could have been done, but it would not have been done effectively, because the audience would be asked to put their emotional investment in some place that didn't matter, then subsequently on a person who did (or vice versa). The limited economy of a film's running time dictates that that energy is better spent in a handful of places, focused on the main character.

Look, I wish Leia had been a better character in some places. Han too. I wish all the characters could be fleshed out in infinite ways. But I also understand that this is a series of two-and-a-half hour movies and that, ultimately, the storytelling priority and emotional heft should go mostly toward the main character if it is going to have any lasting emotional impact, because he is our surrogate.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

When your looking at gender representation, you're not looking at merely the individual instances, but the whole population.

Of the named SW characters, there's Obiwan, Yoda, Luke, Han, Lando, Vader, Boba Fett,etc....making Han comprise lets say 5% of the male population, though it's probably less if we look at just every character that appears. So him getting captured isn't really representative of him as a man, because another man captured him, and another man is rescuing him, and there are a bunch of other men doing a bunch of other stuff. Leia, however, is representative of 100% of the female characters in the film. And she just gets captured. And she fails in rescuing him. See the issue?

TFA already would never have this problem even if things worked out the same exact way they did in ESP, simply because Rey is firmly established not to be the only female in the galaxy, so representation is not all on her.

She doesn't fail... It was part of the plan.

R2D2 had the lightsaber way before Leia even showed up.

Also Aunt Beru, Luke's friend in the cantina (cut scene), "Bothian spies died" commander in ROTJ etc...
She wasn't MADE as a representation of all females. But she was a play on the damsel in distress which was huge back then. Only Lucas made her a person, instead of just an object.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Of course not. Clearly it's about the guy with the death sentence in 12 systems.

I prefer to think it's about the Jawa that knocks Luke out. A true warrior.

You and others were using the argument that this being Luke's story means there is no way for the narrative to shift focus to look at Leia's perspective, when that's exactly what it can do. By your own admission, this is the case as the narrative is infact does shift to other characters when appropriate.

No one is saying that it can't shift focus. It very well could have, but it did not. The story really didn't necessitate it because Leia is not the focus of the story. Luke is the focus of it and the story barely lingered on the aftermath of Owen and Beru. It was an afterthought. That's just how ANH was. It could've been better if they did, though.

 

[Toxi]

She doesn't fail... It was part of the plan.

R2D2 had the lightsaber way before Leia even showed up.

The "plan" was basically contingency plan after contingency plan. First they tried to negotiate with the droids. When that failed, Leia and Chewbacca came to rescue Han. When that failed, Luke came to negotiate in person. When that failed, Luke finally got out his lightsaber to kill Jabba's goons.

If it was one singular plan instead of a bunch of contingency plans, then it was a dumb fucking plan.

 

[Tookay]

When your looking at gender representation, you're not looking at merely the individual instances, but the whole population.

Of the named SW characters, there's Obiwan, Yoda, Luke, Han, Lando, Vader, Boba Fett,etc....making Han comprise lets say 5% of the male population, though it's probably less if we look at just every character that appears. So him getting captured isn't really representative of him as a man, because another man captured him, and another man is rescuing him, and there are a bunch of other men doing a bunch of other stuff. Leia, however, is representative of 100% of the female characters in the film. And she just gets captured. And she fails in rescuing him. See the issue?

TFA already would never have this problem even if things worked out the same exact way they did in ESP, simply because Rey is firmly established not to be the only female in the galaxy, so representation is not all on her.

I'm looking at the "whole population" of main characters. Of which, there are essentially the big three (Luke, Han, and Leia) and everybody else. Excluding the Leia stuff, which we've already laid out, Han is in need of rescue in at least two of the three movies. Luke is ALSO in need of rescue, twice in ESB (from the Wampa and at Cloud City, after being beaten up by Vader) and arguably a third time in ROTJ (when he is being electrocuted by the Emperor).

Expanding this, Lando is also a captive in his own city in ESB, which is the subject of his deal with Vader. As for Vader and Boba Fett, they are villains of the series and are threatening the heroes; thus they are of course not going to be captured. However, EVEN HERE, Vader is somewhat a prisoner to the dark side and the Emperor, who Luke sets out to "rescue" and "free" from the Emperor (there's even language to this effect).

Almost all of the main characters are various states of capture, rescue, loss, and escape throughout the films. That is the nature of Star Wars pulp adventure storytelling. I don't think it's fair to single out Leia and act like it isn't constantly happening to the males too, and to mostly the same degree.

 

[Veelk]

I'm arguing for the idea that, in a fast-moving zippy pulp sci-fi adventure film that doesn't linger on death for too long, the time best spent towards mourning - and therefore slowing down said zippiness - goes to Luke, the main character of the piece. Having two characters grieve back to back could have been done, but it would not have been done effectively, because the audience would be asked to put their emotional investment in some place that didn't matter, then subsequently on a person who did (or vice versa). The limited economy of a film's running time dictates that that energy is better spent in a handful of places, focused on the main character.

And I disagree with that handliy as well. It would be one of the easier things to implement into the movie.

Specifically before the operation for the death star run starts. Her looking at a map where Alderan used to be would be her taking a brief moment to remember everything that she has gone through and lost, before turning with renewed resolve, making sure she'll destory that fucking abomination of a machine. It doesn't have to be a huge scene, just something to acknowledge that she remembers and feels for Alderan.

You can't seriously be arguing that that, a minor acknowledgement that could be done and over with in maybe 10 seconds if you were economical about it, would drag down the pace of the movie in any meaningful sense. Because if you really thought that, then you would in turn have to argue to cut a lot of material that is already in the movie. No Han shooting Greedo. No Obiwan and Vader confrontation. No Alderan destruction. Hell, how about cutting down the opening itself since it spends so much time on NonLuke stuff.

You have time for all that, but a single scene for the only woman of your 3 primary characters is out of the question? No.

 

[Metalmarc]

Heres my new theory on Snoke

Some people have theorized that snoke may actually be small and is projecting as a Huge blown up image of himself/herself in hologram form, also disgusing their real voice/image like wizard of Oz style.

Has lived for a long time, before the prequels

Knows who Han Solo is

Is cgi


The twist is that i think Snoke could be Maz Kanata.

Maz is:

Small

Has lived for more than a 1000 years

Knows who Han Solo is

Is Cgi

Who Knows what else she has hidden in the castle

Suddenly dissapears to god knows where for the rest of the film.


But chances are Snoke is just Snoke

 

[heliosRAzi]

I'm looking at the "whole population" of protagonists. Of which, there are essentially the big three (Luke, Han, and Leia) and everybody else. Excluding the Leia stuff, which we've already laid out, Han is in need of rescue in at least two of the three movies. Luke is ALSO in need of rescue, twice in ESB (from the Wampa and at Cloud City, after being beaten up by Vader) and arguably a third time in ROTJ (when he is being killed by the Emperor). Lando is also a captive in his own city in ESB.

Vader and Boba Fett are in no need of rescue because they are villains and are threatening the heroes. However, EVEN HERE, Vader is somewhat a prisoner to the dark side and the Emperor, who Luke sets out to "rescue" and "free" from the Emperor. Almost all of the main characters are various states of capture, rescue, loss, and ruin throughout the films. That is the nature of Star Wars pulp adventure storytelling. I don't think it's fair to single out Leia and act like it isn't constantly happening to the males.

Lando had to be saved in the beginning of ROTJ, too.

One of the ways Star Wars has treated its female characters like shit was by forcing their emotional problems to take a back seat to that of the male characters.

This is what started this line of argument. Leia's emotional problems take a back seat to Luke's because Luke is the main character. While it could've been there and made it an even better movie, ANH isn't hurt without it.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

I'm looking at the "whole population" of protagonists. Of which, there are essentially the big three (Luke, Han, and Leia) and everybody else. Excluding the Leia stuff, which we've already laid out, Han is in need of rescue in at least two of the three movies. Luke is ALSO in need of rescue, twice in ESB (from the Wampa and at Cloud City, after being beaten up by Vader) and arguably a third time in ROTJ (when he is being killed by the Emperor). Lando is also a captive in his own city in ESB.

Vader and Boba Fett are in no need of rescue because they are villains and are threatening the heroes. However, EVEN HERE, Vader is somewhat a prisoner to the dark side and the Emperor, who Luke sets out to "rescue" and "free" from the Emperor. Almost all of the main characters are various states of capture, rescue, loss, and ruin throughout the films. That is the nature of Star Wars pulp adventure storytelling. I don't think it's fair to single out Leia and act like it isn't constantly happening to the males.

After having rewatched, the OT recently... it's funny how you would not catch that in ESB that it's HAN [the man] who is constantly talking about feelings and wanting Leia to admit her true feelings about him, and it's Leia [the woman] who is trying to stay focused by getting the job done and staying on track, since they are at war.

Usually and especially back then, movies depicted women as the emotional ones in battle. In ESB, Han is the emotional one.

And what makes it even funnier is, once he gets his wish, and she finally admits her feelings, he plays it (literally) cool.

 

[Tookay]

And I disagree with that handliy as well. It would be one of the easier things to implement into the movie.

Specifically before the operation for the death star run starts. Her looking at a map where Alderan used to be would be her taking a brief moment to remember everything that she has gone through and lost, before turning with renewed resolve, making sure she'll destory that fucking abomination of a machine. It doesn't have to be a huge scene, just something to acknowledge that she remembers and feels for Alderan.

You can't seriously be arguing that that, a minor acknowledgement that could be done and over with in maybe 10 seconds if you were economical about it, would drag down the pace of the movie in any meaningful sense. Because if you really thought that, then you would in turn have to argue to cut a lot of material that is already in the movie. No Han shooting Greedo. No Obiwan and Vader confrontation. No Alderan destruction. Hell, how about cutting down the opening itself since it spends so much time on NonLuke stuff.

You have time for all that, but a single scene for the only woman of your 3 primary characters is out of the question? No.

Once again, it could be done. It could have done a lot of things, but I think that that wasn't where the narrative energies would be best spent.

Frankly, if, in an alternate universe, they had just decided to do a small (half-assed) scene where Leia grieves, I could easily see our alternate universe conversation play out like this:

(a) "Well, why didn't the writers spend MORE time with Leia grieving Alderaan? Why did the writers prioritize and devote more time to Luke, a male, and his loss, over a female and hers?" or
(b) "Isn't the fact that they showed a woman being emotional sexist?"

I don't think there is a way to completely or genuinely address your criticism without ultimately making Leia the protagonist. Regrettably, we don't live in that universe.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Also in TFA, Leia hugs Rey at the end, only the 2 females feel the death of Han.
Leia should have hugged Chewie as they both lost someone huge in their life.

Though no, Chewie just walks by her as if nothing happened.

TFA is Speciest.

Yeah that part was fucking weird. Chewie just walks by to gawk at whatever the crowd is looking at

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

Once again, it could be done. It could have done a lot of things, but I think that that wasn't where the narrative energies would be best spent.

But even if it had been done and they just decided to do a small (half-assed) scene, I could just as easily see the alternate universe conversation of this be go like this:

(a) "Well, why didn't the writers spend MORE time with Leia grieving Alderaan? Why did the writers prioritize Luke, a male, and his loss, over a female and hers?" or
(b) "Isn't the fact that they showed a woman being emotional sexist?"

I agree

I think her scene in the Death Star was enough.

Considering that she didn't give up the location of the rebel base, even at the cost of her home planet, showed how much determination she had in fighting the Empire.

She was still fighting the good fight, and the empire has and will continue to destroy more lives until her and the Rebels put a stop to them.

 

[prag16]

I still can't believe they didn't have straight up Force Awakens content in the pipes. We should have Takodana and Starkiller Base maps. Old Han, Chewie, Rey and Kylo Ren hero classes.

Limiting the game to the OT across the board, and not even making full use of the content that provides, is such a missed opportunity.

Yeah, they even went so far as to semiofficially say there will ONLY be OT content. That's insane. They must hate money.

How it is possible they're not doing a Takodana/Starkiller map pack, with Finn/Rey/Kylo/Phasma hero characters. Absurd.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Yeah, they even went so far as to semiofficially say there will ONLY be OT content. That's insane. They must hate money.

How it is possible they're not doing a Takodana/Starkiller map pack, with Finn/Rey/Kylo/Phasma hero characters. Absurd.

It would be badass to have a background where Starkiller is charging up, a sun that's slowly being drained away. A Starkiller map would be so badass

 

[Veelk]

I don't think there is a way to completely or genuinely address your criticism without ultimately making Leia the protagonist. Regrettably, we don't live in that universe.

That is REALLY not a reasonable conclusion to come to at all.

I am not talking about a story overhaul nor am I even talking about introducing an entire new story arc. I am talking about one scene that, if we're not being conservative about in any way shape or form, would go on for one minute of a 160+ minute movie.

You cannot argue with a straight face that takes away from Luke's journey and makes Leia the main character in any meaningful way. All it does is give her a scene that is her own. A small one, but still hers. That's all.

Frankly, if, in an alternate universe, they had just decided to do a small (half-assed) scene where Leia grieves, I could easily see our alternate universe conversation play out like this:

(a) "Well, why didn't the writers spend MORE time with Leia grieving Alderaan? Why did the writers prioritize and devote more time to Luke, a male, and his loss, over a female and hers?" or
(b) "Isn't the fact that they showed a woman being emotional sexist?"

This certainly is possible, but that's more because Leia is the only female in the whole movie. I wouldn't be having either conversation if there were more female characters in general. I don't mean major characters, just sprinkled throughout the series like TFA does. Just having an even divide in the Xwing pilots would be enough. You can't say they're playing on the stereotype of women being emotional if you have other female characters not being overly emotional.

 

[Eggbok]

Heres my new theory on Snoke

Some people have theorized that snoke may actually be small and is projecting as a Huge blown up image of himself/herself in hologram form, also disgusing their real voice/image like wizard of Oz style.

Has lived for a long time, before the prequels

Knows who Han Solo is

Is cgi


The twist is that i think Snoke could be Maz Kanata.

Maz is:

Small

Has lived for more than a 1000 years

Knows who Han Solo is

Is Cgi

Who Knows what else she has hidden in the castle

Suddenly dissapears to god knows where for the rest of the film.


But chances are Snoke is just Snoke

Is it a fact that Snoke has been around since before the prequels? Because after the Rebels Season 2 trailer I've started thinking that Ezra could be Snoke.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Is it a fact that Snoke has been around since before the prequels? Because after the Rebels Season 2 trailer I've started thinking that Ezra could be Snoke.

Snoke's supposed to have the seen the rise of the Empire. Ezra was born the day the Emperor announced the creation of the Empire. They're never going to make Snoke a character from an animated show regardless.

 

[Kaneda Shotaro]

Is it a fact that Snoke has been around since before the prequels? Because after the Rebels Season 2 trailer I've started thinking that Ezra could be Snoke.

Yes, confirmed in the books. In fact, he watched the Empire rise and fall (I believe that was close to an exact quote) and then made his presence known. There has to be a reason he waited and took his time. I'm thinking he didn't want to confront Palpatine and knew Sheev (lol) would fail one day so he could then swoop in.

 

[Eggbok]

Snoke's supposed to have the seen the rise of the Empire. Ezra was born the day the Emperor announced the creation of the Empire. They're never going to make Snoke a character from an animated show regardless.

Yes, confirmed in the books. In fact, he watched the Empire rise and fall (I believe that was close to an exact quote) and then made his presence known. There has to be a reason he waited and took his time. I'm thinking he didn't want to confront Palpatine and knew Sheev (lol) would fail one day so he could then swoop in.

Ohhh I didn't know that, amazing how someone can hide their presence from both the Jedi and the Sith.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Ohhh I didn't know that, amazing how someone can hide their presence from both the Jedi and the Sith.

The Jedi couldn't even detect Darth Sheev right under their noses.

 

[heliosRAzi]

.
You cannot argue with a straight face that takes away from Luke's journey

No one is saying that. TheLibrarian claimed that ANH treated Leia bad because her emotional event took a backseat to Lukes and we're explaining why it's taking a backseat to Luke.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

The Jedi couldn't even detect Darth Sheev right under their noses.

The Jedi, as shown in the PT and in their general beliefs, are backwards in many ways. They are the Republicans of the Star Wars universe until they were wiped out.

 

[sphagnum]

Snoke is Ken Palpatine.

 

[elrechazado]

Of course not. Clearly it's about the guy with the death sentence in 12 systems.

You'll be dead

 

[heliosRAzi]

The Jedi, as shown in the PT and in their general beliefs, are backwards in many ways. They are the Republicans of the Star Wars universe until they were wiped out.

Does that make Yoda Trump?

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Does that make Yoda Trump?

Yes. It also makes him a Cosmic Asshole as I delved into earlier.

 

[Alienous]

So Rey reads Kylo's mind to defeat him, right?

I think Kylo says something like "I could teach you". Then there's a pause where Rey is focusing; that's her looking up Kylo's lightsaber techniques so she 'learns' those and is able to beat him?

It wasn't clear.