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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
That's her closing her eyes and letting the Force in, like Maz told her to do earlier. Like Obi-Wan's ghost tells Luke to do in ANH. The key thing is that Kylo says "Force," which makes Rey remember what Maz said earlier about the Force, and let's her fully let it in.
JaseMath
Member
The Librarian
Banned
Wouldn't be as much of a problem if Leia weren't made out to be, like, the only woman in the galaxy. I mean, if you're gonna do that, at least give that one girl room to breathe.
Following these past three threads, it's been really fascinating reading how Star Wars' fans grapple with the series' sexist history.
I do also subscribe to the idea that Rey digging into Kylo's mind kind of opened her up to her abilities more too, ala The Matrix "I know kung fu." Though not quite that literally like, "I know Force Push," but it probably subconsciously helped her intuit the mind control on the guard and grabbing the lightsaber.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Room to breathe how? Everyone is fine with a little something to show that it affected her. Same goes for Luke in regards to Beru and Owen. It's just the way you phrased it, it seemed like you wanted it to be just as important as Luke's despite her not being the main character.
The Librarian
Banned
But she's a main character. If it wasn't addressed in ANH, which may or may not be understandable, it could've been addressed in Empire...
...because in that movie she was basically turned into a love interest, given nothing to do, and was basically harassed by Han throughout the film.
It's the least they could've done. Sadly...
One of the things I enjoyed the most about The Force Awakens is how much representation is present in the movie in small and large ways.
There are female X-Wing Pilots and First Order Soldiers. There are black men and women that work for the Resistance as well. There are Asian men and women in the Resistance. Some of them have speaking parts, some of them are background extras, but the point I'm getting at is that it was just so nice to see them there. In many other films, those extras, or small speaking parts would be almost exclusively white.
It was just cool to see the casting director of TFA populating the world with diversity. It reflected the fact that Star Wars is indeed for everybody. Star Wars is a worldwide phenomenon. It means a lot to a lot of people, male and female. Being included in the series in some capacity feels wonderful.
I'm hoping we'll see some people of middle eastern descent in future movies as well. Again, it's not about being main characters, or having heroic arcs or lines of dialogue, but it's about acknowledging, even on a subconscious level that the heroics in Star Wars aren't just always carried out by good old white boys with gumption.
It's why I love Rey and Finn and even Poe (his role is small, but he's great whenever he's on screen). It just feels good to see a hero that looks like me being heroic, even if he does get wrecked by Kylo Ren's light saber and is TKO'd for the rest of the movie. Seeing him stand up for himself, ignite that light saber, and try to fight someone clearly more experienced that him got me giddy. My wife felt the same about Rey. She audibly exclaimed "YES!" When the light saber flew into Rey's hand and she started to battle Kylo.
She's been a Star Wars fan since she was a little girl in the 80's, and as much as she loves Leia, Leia wasn't the hero. My wife wanted to be Luke and Han, because they got to do stuff. Use a light saber, fly the Falcon, have Chewie as a sidekick. They all got to grow and evolve into something great by the end of the movie (Luke became a Jedi, Han stopped being a selfish asshat, what did Leia evolve to? Luke's sister and Han's girlfriend?)
Rey being the hero of this story was like a dream come true for her. I know she's not the only female Star Wars fan that feels that way. It makes me happy to think that she's found a character she connects to like that, and who also happens to have girl parts. Sure, some people may take umbrage with Rey being so good and independent, but the truth is that she was written like many heroic males before her. There wasn't handling her with kid gloves because she's a woman. It's nice to see a woman going on a heroes journey that isn't just in her head (i.e., Alice in Wonderland, or Labyrinth). Rey actually gets to perform actions tha affect the story and the Galaxy. That's fricking awesome. Finn does too, which makes me happy too!
There are female X-Wing Pilots and First Order Soldiers. There are black men and women that work for the Resistance as well. There are Asian men and women in the Resistance. Some of them have speaking parts, some of them are background extras, but the point I'm getting at is that it was just so nice to see them there. In many other films, those extras, or small speaking parts would be almost exclusively white.
It was just cool to see the casting director of TFA populating the world with diversity. It reflected the fact that Star Wars is indeed for everybody. Star Wars is a worldwide phenomenon. It means a lot to a lot of people, male and female. Being included in the series in some capacity feels wonderful.
I'm hoping we'll see some people of middle eastern descent in future movies as well. Again, it's not about being main characters, or having heroic arcs or lines of dialogue, but it's about acknowledging, even on a subconscious level that the heroics in Star Wars aren't just always carried out by good old white boys with gumption.
It's why I love Rey and Finn and even Poe (his role is small, but he's great whenever he's on screen). It just feels good to see a hero that looks like me being heroic, even if he does get wrecked by Kylo Ren's light saber and is TKO'd for the rest of the movie. Seeing him stand up for himself, ignite that light saber, and try to fight someone clearly more experienced that him got me giddy. My wife felt the same about Rey. She audibly exclaimed "YES!" When the light saber flew into Rey's hand and she started to battle Kylo.
She's been a Star Wars fan since she was a little girl in the 80's, and as much as she loves Leia, Leia wasn't the hero. My wife wanted to be Luke and Han, because they got to do stuff. Use a light saber, fly the Falcon, have Chewie as a sidekick. They all got to grow and evolve into something great by the end of the movie (Luke became a Jedi, Han stopped being a selfish asshat, what did Leia evolve to? Luke's sister and Han's girlfriend?)
Rey being the hero of this story was like a dream come true for her. I know she's not the only female Star Wars fan that feels that way. It makes me happy to think that she's found a character she connects to like that, and who also happens to have girl parts. Sure, some people may take umbrage with Rey being so good and independent, but the truth is that she was written like many heroic males before her. There wasn't handling her with kid gloves because she's a woman. It's nice to see a woman going on a heroes journey that isn't just in her head (i.e., Alice in Wonderland, or Labyrinth). Rey actually gets to perform actions tha affect the story and the Galaxy. That's fricking awesome. Finn does too, which makes me happy too!
Count Dookkake
Member
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heliosRAzi
Banned
Not in ANH. And you're complaint seemed to be about ANH.
I think a short scene of her acknowledging its destruction would have been perfect, and would have elevated her role in ANH beyond just the snarky non-traditional Princess. Having her looking at a Star Map of the Alderaan system before the scene planning the attack on the Death Star would have been nice. She could have ran a finger over the empty spot where Alderaan was, and then squared her shoulders and did what needed to be done. She didn't need to cry, or wax poetic, but a visual representation of her grief besides her saying "No!" When it was destroyed would have really added to her character. it would have in no way affected Luke's journey, or the pacing of the film at that point. It would have been a calm before the storm scene, actually, then we lead into the Death Star briefing and attack. It would reiterated the stakes for the audience that destroying the Death Star was certainly good for the Rebellion, but it was also personal for Leia.
The Librarian
Banned
Well, not necessarily crying, but definitely grieving more showing it affected her in a way. In addition, to be less sexist, the film could've shown more women, have more female characters, have these female characters discuss a variety of topics between them, maybe form some friendships....
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Sounds like you're looking for a different movie then. The OT was mainly about Luke and his growth to being a Jedi. Leia, Han, Chewie were all side characters.
The Librarian
Banned
Your wife and I? We're sisters here. I had the exact same reaction.
I think what a lot of male Star Wars fans don't get, or at the very least have trouble understanding, is that when a MAJOR movie franchise pretends your gender doesn't exist except when needed (!), it gets to you. And this isn't just Star Wars, A LOT of movie franchises have this problem our culture as a whole does it.
Think about that for a second. The Star Wars franchise, up until 2006 TEN YEARS AGO almost always pretended like women didn't exist unless they were needed. That's horrible! That's not good at all!
And even so even so! you have some users in this thread shrugging this fact off by saying "I like Leia." Some refuse to even acknowledge the problem, others have their standards SO LOW that they're satisfied with Leia.
And that's a tragedy.
The Librarian
Banned
I mean, if by wishing the film and the franchise as a whole hadn't treated its female characters like shit means I want a different movie, sure! I wish it had been a different movie!
I thought it was intentionally framed that way so we could see he was taking care of Finn. That despite the mauling he gave Finn when he was getting fixed up, he did care about him. Thought it was a neat moment for Chewie. They followed up by showing his grief later on.
Yeah, this is something that I think is a bit overlooked sometimes in the diversity discussion. It's not just about having a lead or two to reflect a diverse world. If you populate the film world to reflect diversity, then it follows that a lot of your leads are not going to be white men. That's the approach they took with TFA, and I hope it carries through all the rest of the films.
Believe me, as a black guy, I understand exactly what you mean. Blacks don't exactly have the most useful track record in film beyond the magical negro kind. When we aren't being intimidatingly powerful and angry, we are betraying our friends to the Empire or being comic relief.
The fact that Finn, while still betraying the first order (lol. Of course) is given a heroic arc that is usually reserved for white male leads is just wonderful to me. He's a fully developed character with purpose and agency. He isn't just there to aid the white hero fulfilling his destiny. Don't get me wrong, he does help Rey accept her truth, but that's in addition to his own fleshed out journey. For minorities and women in film, this is pretty fucking rare, and yeah, that's a damn tragedy.
It must be really, really nice to have so much representation and differing portrayals of your gender/ethnicity that you can shrug off things like what TFA did, or find a character like Leia as presented in the OT as acceptable. Until Rey, all we had was Leia, and Padme, and Padme spent her final days pregnant and emotional, then she dies of a broken fucking heart. It's no god damned wonder Rey is resonating with women and little girls.
heliosRAzi
Banned
I don't think anyone is disputing that the movies could have had more representation.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Her in this case, is pretty much what Finn is in this movie. Not to mention the talk of bait and switch with the lightsaber and co-leads pre-release. I respect you opinion but damn if he didn't fall into the typical roles.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I don't know about that. It really is a team effort. They worked together, and neither would have made it without the other. In the end it was going to be a one-on-one battle with Kylo. I don't think Finn not being that person diminishes his role, or even puts him as second fiddle to Rey. They were both the leads in this film.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
This is "We Need to Talk About Kevin" levels of convincing casting. Love how similar they look.Saw this on Twitter:
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
The only time Rey and Finn really worked together was the Falcon escape on Jakku. Otherwise every other scene serves to undermine Finn by making him weaker in comparison, or being a comedic relief in a serious scene. Stuff like getting BB-8 dropped on him in cargo hold, getting pulled by the tentacle creature, he gets revealed as the space janitor, gets beaten by regular stormtrooper, Han has to tell him what explosives are (a soldier not knowing what a box of explosives are ?!?), and more with the end result of undermining him as a character. His sacrifice is even cheapened by the fact that the saber pull isn't the first time Rey uses the Force. Finn gets cut down and put into a coma to take him away from going to find Luke so Rey can go and train. Ultimately Rey's journey does come at the expense of Finn.
excelsiorlef
Member
It's funny you say this but Leia is the only major character to not have a heroic major climatic moment.
Han/Chewie come back and take out Vader's ship, Luke of course blows up Death Star 1 and defeats Vader, Vader kills The Emperor, Lando blows up Death Star 2, Obi Wan fights Vader and sacrifices himself and then as a force ghost guides Luke to blowing up Death Star 1 and Vader kills the Emperor.
Leia watches the Death Star 1 battle and does grunt work during Death Star 2
Closest she gets is killing Jabba who frankly is a tertiary villain and that's undermined by the ridiculous slave outfit.
Fact is Leia is only the second best female character in the Star Wars series because there's really only 3 that matter and the one that ranks third dies of a broken heart.
Saw this on Twitter:
Han is an angry Kylo Ren.
Has Daisy Ridleys delivery been discussed? It really annoyed me throughout the film and imo her inexperience showed. Felt like I was watching an actor acting rather than a character living which completely took me out of the moment.
Her comedy and banter with Finn were her strong points, but anything serious felt unnatural and forced and lacking a subtlety/fluidity. I really want to like her too!
Her comedy and banter with Finn were her strong points, but anything serious felt unnatural and forced and lacking a subtlety/fluidity. I really want to like her too!
You know, I'll be honest. Real people aren't like actors. Sometimes to convey a realistic person in a role, it's a good idea to cast some actor whose personal self comes through. For their first role, this can actually strengthen the character. It's also a good chance for the actor to grow themselves. I find the character really convincing for some of the aloof behavior that Rey displayed.
excelsiorlef
Member
You're one of the only one who has any issue with her acting.
She was phenomenal and everything you are saying is the exact opposite my what I saw. She has so many small moments that are beautifully and naturally acted, taking in the green on Maz's planet, the entire intro where she doesn't even say a word until running into BB-8, she was great.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Well, Leia saves Luke by making Chewie go back to save him while escaping, and yeah she also kills Jabba, which is something despite you trying to make it nothing. You're also underplaying that she helps lead the resistance on Endors moon, helping take out the shield along with Chewie and Han. Sure if you count them 1 by 1, none of them have equal actions(Well except maybe Chewie and Han being a team, except that one time Chewie and Leia help Han escape), but they each have actions done.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I found her acting, especially her expressions, to be phenomenal actually. That look she gives Kylo Ren's lightsaber for instance, sells it.
Similar? I dunno, Ford is one of the hottest actors ever, while Driver...
excelsiorlef
Member
I do count them 1 by 1, you just made the argument that one of her big heroic moments is convincing someone else to do something. Each important character gets a big solo or duo climax or leading to climax moment except Leia.
Fact is Rey had more solo heroic moments in TFA than Leia did in 3 movies. Hell she had more than Leia and Padme combined.
Leia's contribution to the ANH climax, the movie that shows Leia at her best and most important, is to sit and watch. There's a reason she's giving the medals and not receiving one.
Fact is Star Wars until TFA mistreated and unrepresented female characters at an astonishing level, it borders on embarrassing.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I mean....comparing Rey to Leia is a bit disingenuous. I'm not disagreeing that the original Star Wars trilogy could've used more female characters, but comparing a main character like Rey to Leia who is more of a side character like Han and Chewie(Which you continue to discount that she did in fact do things like help lead the rebellion on Endor, and kill Jabba by herself which you're just dismissing) is well...a bad argument. And she's giving medals because she's supposedly that last remaining monarch, so.....why would she give a medal to herself?
"Leia isn't as good as Rey". Well, Leia isn't the main character like Rey. Tit for tat, I suppose.
excelsiorlef
Member
Han had more moments than Leia too. She contributed as much in the Endor battle as a bunch if Teddy bears.
I'm saying she's the most overlooked character in OT. It's what makes the abject disaster if Padme so impressive, because it shouldn't have been hard to write a female character who does more than Leia.
Like I said that she spends the climax of ANH watching it is ridiculous.
It's still 3 movies vs 1. Rey in one did more than Leia in 3.
Trigonometrize.
Member
I don't know. It felt like to me Luke, Han, and Leia were the trifecta, with Luke receiving the most attention deservingly as the protagonist and Han and Leia having their own arcs... except they forgot about Leia.
Leia had heroic moments, but her character was lacking in meaningful conflict outside of the romance with Han, which while done well, is a romance at the end of the day. It felt like at the end of A New Hope they could really take this character places, but they didn't IMO.
Just saw TFA for the third time. Can really hear Obi-Wan's voice in Rey's dream, when you're listening for it. I do wonder if it's just a general call from someone who can call through the force to someone who can listen, though. Have watched The Clone Wars episode with Satine, and not sure if Kenobi could've had a child with her later. Only in the third season there, though, so maybe that changes later.
Rey's Awakening:
She starts off as a loner on Jakku. Force created by living beings (though can reach to non-living objects, too) and Jakku is a desert world. Maybe her connection to Fin helped prompt the Awakening as she's piloting the ship as it was the first close tie she's felt with another in a long time?
Also, when she gets to Maz's planet, she comments that there's more green there than she thought was in the whole galaxy. Green => life => more Force (possibly why Yoda chose such a life-filled planet for his exile, too) The leaving of Fin to the Outer Rim gives her feelings of abandonment like when her family left her on Jakku. Strong Feelings => more Force aware. That could be why she immediately starts hearing her own cries of "No, No!" from when she was abandoned on Jakku as the lightsaber calls out to her from Maz's basement.
In Rey's time with Kylo after leaving Maz's planet, he mentions that she's been having dreams of an island on an ocean. This is clearly Luke's location, so the question becomes is she having dreams of the future like Luke had in his time with Yoda? Possibly unlikely, in my opinion, as her time on Jakku wasn't filled with the Force, since she only started Awakening as she was leaving the planet. Another possibility is that Luke is sending the dreams out of his location like a beacon to any Force-aware Light users, so she starts having the dreams when she starts Awakening after leaving Jakku.
I didn't notice Kylo's comments about the dreams of the island on a huge ocean (i.e. Luke's location) until this time through, so wasn't sure if it was mentioned before. Anyways, just wanted to get these new thoughts (for me) out there!
Rey's Awakening:
She starts off as a loner on Jakku. Force created by living beings (though can reach to non-living objects, too) and Jakku is a desert world. Maybe her connection to Fin helped prompt the Awakening as she's piloting the ship as it was the first close tie she's felt with another in a long time?
Also, when she gets to Maz's planet, she comments that there's more green there than she thought was in the whole galaxy. Green => life => more Force (possibly why Yoda chose such a life-filled planet for his exile, too) The leaving of Fin to the Outer Rim gives her feelings of abandonment like when her family left her on Jakku. Strong Feelings => more Force aware. That could be why she immediately starts hearing her own cries of "No, No!" from when she was abandoned on Jakku as the lightsaber calls out to her from Maz's basement.
In Rey's time with Kylo after leaving Maz's planet, he mentions that she's been having dreams of an island on an ocean. This is clearly Luke's location, so the question becomes is she having dreams of the future like Luke had in his time with Yoda? Possibly unlikely, in my opinion, as her time on Jakku wasn't filled with the Force, since she only started Awakening as she was leaving the planet. Another possibility is that Luke is sending the dreams out of his location like a beacon to any Force-aware Light users, so she starts having the dreams when she starts Awakening after leaving Jakku.
I didn't notice Kylo's comments about the dreams of the island on a huge ocean (i.e. Luke's location) until this time through, so wasn't sure if it was mentioned before. Anyways, just wanted to get these new thoughts (for me) out there!
I thought she was amazing, among the best performances a film of strong performances (on par with Adam Driver), with good comic timing and excellent range. She gets put through a gauntlet in the film and nails every scene. The nuance she brings to the push back on the mind control scene is remarkable.
She was an incredible find.
there is literally one flaw with her from the whole movie, and it's not really her fault at all
when we first meet her she does the open canteen > drink last drops out of canteen > bang the side of the canteen a few times in a row to show that you're really thirsty and trying to get every last drop out
I hate that cliche
Trigonometrize.
Member
Plus her smile makes me smile. Very cute.
I do that in real life so...
Seriously who doesn't like a few trickles of moisture on their tongue when they are thirsty, that shit feels good.
Again, the problem isn't "why" it happens, but that it happens.
Look at the gamer gate incident. I'm not saying this is as bad as that, but look at the line of reasoning here. When Anita Sarkesian gave her examples games that use the Damsel in Distress trope, the response from her every critic and every of a game she used as that example was "Well, it makes total sense in context." I've seen a justification for atleast every single game she mentioned in her first video. I've seen mentions of "Well, guys get captured too" or explanations of how it couldn't have possibly happened any other way. Somehow, she missed the obvious excuse of each and every DiD she saw in each and every single game that made it totally okay to be a DiD.
There is always going to be a narrative reason for why the woman of the story is the one who is being treated within the confines of her gender stereotype. Always. But those reasons are always malleable because they only exist on the authors allowance. So Leia is a princess? Well, how about instead she just has a Royal Award Giver that isn't Leia and they all get medals from the PEOPLE rather than the royalty. Boom. Just like that, they all get recognition. Simple acknowledgement of Leia's character done in under a minute.
There is never a narrative defense for the depiction of anything within the narrative. It's always on the writer.
So I watched a bunch of TFA trailer reaction videos a while back, and Youtube keeps feeding me new ones and I sort of keep watching lots of them. In the 3rd one in particular, it seems like half the trailers end with people wondering, where's Luke?
And it occurred to me that while the trailers kept the plot well hidden, by not showing Luke they actually told people what the movie is about, in a meta sort of way. Even in the trailer thread on GAF, that was a common reaction. It's the central question of the plot, and by not showing Luke, they got everyone asking the same question the film opened with, we just didn't know it at the time. Where's Luke?
And it occurred to me that while the trailers kept the plot well hidden, by not showing Luke they actually told people what the movie is about, in a meta sort of way. Even in the trailer thread on GAF, that was a common reaction. It's the central question of the plot, and by not showing Luke, they got everyone asking the same question the film opened with, we just didn't know it at the time. Where's Luke?
Trigonometrize.
Member
JJ's mystery box was at work all along.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Rey is still the main character, along with Finn. Leia does things, yes, maybe not as many as Han, but I don't count them 1 for 1, complaining when one person did 3 and the other did 2.
I mean, if we're doing tit for tat, did Han have a meaningful conflict? He gets captured, he's a ship for Luke, he fights tie fighters, he has a damsel in distress arc like Leia did in the first movie, she kills Jabba and helps the trio escape from Jabbas palace...
Name an important conflict with Han Solo. Essentially saying that 'Oh she was just there' despite not being just there, she did things just like Han. Not as many as Luke, but she did things, like take a leadership role on Hoth for the rebels.
But she is the monarch, and having the monarch of the destroy planet that the rebels followed makes sense. She's also a general and leader for the rebels. It makes sense to have the leader give out the awards. Why would she give an award to herself? If they had written a 'Royal Award Giver' for a planet that didn't exist, essentially that means Leias character is telling her subject to give a medal to herself. Yes, they could've written I dunno, Kenobis zombie to give out awards, but then you just start getting contrived.
excelsiorlef
Member
Will I be a scoundrel and run away or be a hero and step up my game
BreezyLimbo
Banned
And Leia takes initiative to save Han.
Either way, both Han and Leia have their moments where they're down(Han running away, getting captured, Leia getting captured...multiple times.), but you really can't dismiss both times the characters are heroic, whether it's killing Jabba, leading the rebels, coming to the rescue in the Falcon, convincing the Ewoks to join them by telling Luke what to do(Those cuddly bears managed to capture Han, Chewie, and Luke mind you)
prag16
Banned
Yep. The ONLY remotely negative thing I could say is overuse of that toothy grimace face. But regardless, she was outstanding.
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