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[excelsiorlef]

And Leia takes initiative to save Han.

Either way, both Han and Leia have their moments where they're down(Han running away, getting captured, Leia getting captured...multiple times.), but you really can't dismiss both times the characters are heroic, whether it's killing Jabba, leading the rebels, coming to the rescue in the Falcon, convincing the Ewoks to join them by telling Luke what to do(Those cuddly bears managed to capture Han, Chewie, and Luke mind you)

You asked for a character arc. Han goes from scoundrel to hero. Leia goes from one of the rebel leaders to one of the rebel leader.

Also Jabba is like 30 min in the movie , Han deciding to be a hero is part of the climax of ANH.

They paid lip service to Leia being a hero but never really let her fully be one on her own.

She'd be great if she was a woman in the OT instead of the woman in the OT.

Think about it TFA is the first Star Wars movie to have two female characters speak to each other in a meaningful scene.

 

[Turin]

You're one of the only one who has any issue with her acting.

She was phenomenal and everything you are saying is the exact opposite my what I saw. She has so many small moments that are beautifully and naturally acted, taking in the green on Maz's planet, the entire intro where she doesn't even say a word until running into BB-8, she was great.

I love the part when she puts on what looks like Luke's helmet.

 

[Fencedude]

I mean....comparing Rey to Leia is a bit disingenuous. I'm not disagreeing that the original Star Wars trilogy could've used more female characters, but comparing a main character like Rey to Leia who is more of a side character like Han and Chewie(Which you continue to discount that she did in fact do things like help lead the rebellion on Endor, and kill Jabba by herself which you're just dismissing) is well...a bad argument. And she's giving medals because she's supposedly that last remaining monarch, so.....why would she give a medal to herself?

"Leia isn't as good as Rey". Well, Leia isn't the main character like Rey. Tit for tat, I suppose.

So the position now is that up until Rey, Star Wars had zero female main characters?

This does not make things look better.

 

[Fencedude]

God can you imagine the reaction if TFA actually REALLY had gender parity? There's an order of magnitude more women in this movie, and they are still hilariously outnumbered by men.

Can you imagine what it would be like if the tri-fecta in this movie was 2 girls and a guy? So much screaming.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I love the part when she puts on what looks like Luke's helmet.

Totally it's why I can't believe that persson is seriously arguing she lacked subtlety in her acting. Almost all her best scenes come from subtlety

 

[doby]

I found her acting, especially her expressions, to be phenomenal actually. That look she gives Kylo Ren's lightsaber for instance, sells it.

I had no problem with her expressions, like you say that saber reaction is killer. I just didn't like her delivery and my friend felt the same. I can't really place my finger on it, it just didn't sit right with me.

I was surprised to have that reaction too, considering I had read on the non spoiler thread how good her performance was.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

You asked for a character arc. Han goes from scoundrel to hero. Leia goes from one of the rebel leaders to one of the rebel leader.

Also Jabba is like 30 min in the movie , Han deciding to be a hero is part of the climax of ANH.

They paid lip service to Leia being a hero but never really let her fully be one on her own.

I asked for Hans important conflict, which wasn't all that memorable for me. "Jabba is like 30 min of the movie" is moving the goal post. She still takes the initiative to save Han and kills Jabba, it's a conflict for her. Character arcs? Coming to terms with Luke being her brother, and the romance arc being a dual arc for Han/Leia. Action arcs? She's the one who leads Han, Chewie, and Luke when she gets sprung from her cell in the first movie. Killing Jabba. The Endor scene.

She has arcs. But again you're counting them 1 by 1, and then saying 'This character doesn't have as many or what I deem to be as important as this side character!' At the end of the day both Han and Leia are still side characters. Comparing her to Rey was disingenuous to begin with.

So the position now is that up until Rey, Star Wars had zero female main characters?

This does not make things look better.

Yeah, Star Wars has been shitty with representation. But to downplay Leias character, and then compare her to a main character like Rey, is a bit disingenuous. Yes, maybe Leia wasn't the perfect female representation we would've wanted in the OT, but we are viewing it from a modern lens, whether you like it or not.

 

[doby]

Totally it's why I can't believe that persson is seriously arguing she lacked subtlety in her acting. Almost all her best scenes come from subtlety

Everything I said was referring to her delivery. By subtlety I meant the ability she has to play around with her tone rather than a generic shocked tone, concerned tone, happy tone. It all felt very by the book or perhaps lacked an emotive foundation in her voice to sell it properly. But yes I realise I'm firmly in a minority.

 

[Fencedude]

Yeah, Star Wars has been shitty with representation. But to downplay Leias character, and then compare her to a main character like Rey, is a bit disingenuous. Yes, maybe Leia wasn't the perfect female representation we would've wanted in the OT, but we are viewing it from a modern lens, whether you like it or not.

I'm really enjoying seeing you rebutt arguments that aren't being made.

And you're doing a good job of it! Now you just need to respond to the actual points being discussed. Not the ones you wish were being discussed.

The point is, Star Wars has been incredibly shitty about female characters. (and so has basically every other form of genre media, which is not an excuse) No amount of pointing out the things Leia did makes this not the case, and the movies being shitty about female characters doesn't mean Leia, as a character, is worthless.

Try this mental exercise.

Imagine Star Wars if EVERY character was female, except for one male who never got to really do anything.

Try really hard.

Its weird isn't it? Now imagine that being the case in almost EVERY form of highly popular media.

This is the world women and girls have ALWAYS lived in. And even with as great as TFA is in terms of representation, women still make up significantly less than half the total cast.

Its bonkers that suggesting this is an issue results in people flipping their shit, but look at these last few discussions on the matter.

 

[Figboy79]

Her in this case, is pretty much what Finn is in this movie. Not to mention the talk of bait and switch with the lightsaber and co-leads pre-release. I respect you opinion but damn if he didn't fall into the typical roles.

I think he had one of the most interesting arcs in the movie next to Kylo and Rey's. Finn was the heart of the movie. He was the character that the audience could connect to the most, because he was the most human. He was charming, funny, strong when need be, yet has his own plotline that was not dependent on Rey. He was always going to defect. He was always going to escape the first order. He was more than likely going to find BB-8 on Jakku, and take him to the Resistance base for Poe, because he's a good person, and forms attachments to people quickly (more than likely due to the lack of close relationships he had as a trooper for the First Order). It just so happened that Rey found BB-8 first, and then he met Rey, and since their goals intersected, they paired up.

There's actually nothing wrong with having the black character be the comic relief that helps the primary protagonist, but more often than not in fiction, that is their only purpose in the story. In the case of TFA, Finn was his own character first, and a friend and aid to Rey second. That's actually a pretty important distinction to make.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I'm really enjoying seeing you rebutt arguments that aren't being made.

And you're doing a good job of it! Now you just need to respond to the actual points being discussed. Not the ones you wish were being discussed.

The point is, Star Wars has been incredibly shitty about female characters. (and so has basically every other form of genre media, which is not an excuse) No amount of pointing out the things Leia did makes this not the case, and the movies being shitty about female characters doesn't mean Leia, as a character, is worthless.

Try this mental exercise.

Imagine Star Wars if EVERY character was female, except for one male who never got to really do anything.

Try really hard.

Its weird isn't it? Now imagine that being the case in almost EVERY form of highly popular media.

This is the world women and girls have ALWAYS lived in. And even with as great as TFA is in terms of representation, women still make up significantly less than half the total cast.

Its bonkers that suggesting this is an issue results in people flipping their shit, but look at these last few discussions on the matter.

Ok.

Like I said, Star Wars has been shitty with female representation. I also didn't suggest this:

Its bonkers that suggesting this is an issue results in people flipping their shit,

So dunno what you're on about on that point.(I've been arguing against Leias actions being downplayed and that she is in fact a side character who shouldn't be compared to Rey in the same vein, seeing as Rey is the main character)

 

[GhaleonEB]

Everything I said was referring to her delivery. By subtlety I meant the ability she has to play around with her tone rather than a generic shocked tone, concerned tone, happy tone. It all felt very by the book.

All her deliveries felt very authentic to me. It wasn't flashy, but that was a big part of her feeling like a grounded character. I like how her reaction to Finn swerves from threatening to trying to stifle her geeking out at meeting a Resistance fighter. Or how her tone builds from fearful to cool and collected when using the mind trick on the trooper. Dunno. I can't think of a single scene where she was anything but excellent.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I asked for Hans important conflict, which wasn't all that memorable for me. "Jabba is like 30 min of the movie" is moving the goal post. She still takes the initiative to save Han and kills Jabba, it's a conflict for her. Character arcs? Coming to terms with Luke being her brother, and the romance arc being a dual arc for Han/Leia. Action arcs? She's the one who leads Han, Chewie, and Luke when she gets sprung from her cell in the first movie. Killing Jabba. The Endor scene.

She has arcs. But again you're counting them 1 by 1, and then saying 'This character doesn't have as many or what I deem to be as important as this side character!' At the end of the day both Han and Leia are still side characters. Comparing her to Rey was disingenuous to begin with.



Yeah, Star Wars has been shitty with representation. But to downplay Leias character, and then compare her to a main character like Rey, is a bit disingenuous. Yes, maybe Leia wasn't the perfect female representation we would've wanted in the OT, but we are viewing it from a modern lens, whether you like it or not.

I compared 1 movie to 3. That's my point. And no I'm not just looking at her from a modern lense, Bonnie and Clyde came before, Ripley was right after.

Fact is Leia is the only character who sat out of the ANH climax.

Han's important conflict is growing from selfish asshole to hero. That's a huge conflict man. That's like the most important part of him. You accuse me of discounting things and then wave that way.

The Jabba scene is less impactful because they felt they had to sex her up. No one else had to look sexy in their "big moment"

http://www.amc.com/movie-guide/50-greatest-female-movie-characters

Ready for Leia's description

Carrie Fisher's Leia is a sci-fi geek's dream, the hottie who can slaughter a super-slug while dressed in a bikini.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I compared 1 movie to 3. That's my point. And no I'm not just looking at her from a modern lense, Bonnie and Clyde came before, Ripley was right after.

Fact is Leia is the only character who sat out of the ANH climax.

Han's important conflict is growing from selfish asshole to hero. That's a huge conflict man. That's like the most important part of him. You accuse me of discounting things and then wave that way.

The Jabba scene is less impactful because they felt they had to sex her up. No one else had to look sexy in their "big moment"

http://www.amc.com/movie-guide/50-greatest-female-movie-characters

Ready for Leia's description

Oh, her dress was definitely a problem. And weird seeing as Jabba is an alien and well...maybe getting the hots for someone is different in Star Wars. Either way though, she killed that fat fuck. And I didn't downplay Hans character arc, I just mentioned it wasn't as memorable to me that you had to remind me about it. Leia still had...a character arc. I thought you were counting 1 for 1 here? Which is the whole reason I asked you to bring up his character arc >_>

 

[excelsiorlef]

Oh, her dress was definitely a problem. And weird seeing as Jabba is an alien and well...maybe getting the hots for someone is different in Star Wars. Either way though, she killed that fat fuck. And I didn't downplay Hans character arc, I just mentioned it wasn't as memorable to me that you had to remind me about it. Leia still had...a character arc. I thought you were counting 1 for 1 here? Which is the whole reason I asked you to bring up his character arc >_>

Han being a scoundrel isn't memorable? He literally goes ftom selfish asshole to hero. How do you forget that? That's like the core of his character.

Leia doesn't really have an arc at all, she barely changes, she goes from one of the leaders of the Rebels to one if the leaders of the Rebels. Her biggest change is falling in love with Han or finding out she's Luke's sister which amounts to fuck all in the grand scheme of the OT.

Fact remains Leia is the only character of importance to not have a big hero moment in the climax of an OT Star Wars film.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Han being a scoundrel isn't memorable? He literally goes ftom selfish asshole to hero. How do you forget that? That's like the core of his character.

Leia doesn't really have an arc at all, she barely changes, she goes from one of the leaders of the Rebels to one if the leaders of the Rebels. Her biggest change is falling in love with Han or finding out she's Luke's sister which amounts to fuck all in the grand scheme of the OT.

I'll be honest, Han was never a character I liked in the OT. Like....I can barely remember most scenes with him, most memorable being when he gets iced into stone.. Luke, Leia, Darth Vader, even the Emperor were cooler for me back then. And how cool is it that Leia is a general? Yes, her arc goes from being General->General, but that's a head above a smuggler and a kid training to be a Jedi. And she's royalty!

But I understand how that would muddy my views in this discussion, seeing as I never cared for Han as a character.(I do like Harrison Ford the actor, though)

 

[MMarston]

My friend, who'd never seen SW before in her life, decided to give this a shot and watched with her dad. Anyway I asked her take on it and she said that while she pretty much got every reference and also understood how people enjoyed it, she just couldn't exactly *click* with any of it and found it pretty mediocre. She was surprised herself considering she never ever puts a lot of thought or critique into and enjoying most Hollywood blockbuster fare.

I think I get what she means. Having watched Mad Men for the first few episodes and dropping it like a hot potato despite admiring it, I think it's one of those instances where it's just not one's cup of tea.

EDIT: Didn't get a chance to ask her about the performances though.

 

[doby]

All her deliveries felt very authentic to me. It wasn't flashy, but that was a big part of her feeling like a grounded character. I like how her reaction to Finn swerves from threatening to trying to stifle her geeking out at meeting a Resistance fighter. Or how her tone builds from fearful to cool and collected when using the mind trick on the trooper. Dunno. I can't think of a single scene where she was anything but excellent.

Well all I can say is me and my friend made cringe faces at each other everytime she delivered a dodgy line. It was our first time seeing the film too. That's an instinctive, shared reaction but obviously not shared with anyone on here.

 

[BTM]

All her deliveries felt very authentic to me. It wasn't flashy, but that was a big part of her feeling like a grounded character. I like how her reaction to Finn swerves from threatening to trying to stifle her geeking out at meeting a Resistance fighter. Or how her tone builds from fearful to cool and collected when using the mind trick on the trooper. Dunno. I can't think of a single scene where she was anything but excellent.

Yea, Daisy definitely nailed it. It's hard to even think of a scene where she wasn't in top form. Hell, I can't think of one weak actor in TFA. Everyone was so damn good with Driver probably being my favorite.

Well all I can say is me and my friend made cringe faces at each other everytime she delivered a dodgy line. It was our first time seeing the film too. That's an instinctive, shared reaction but obviously not shared with anyone on here.

I respect your opinion man. Some times certain actors and the way they deliver their lines just don't always click with everyone.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'll be honest, Han was never a character I liked in the OT. Like....I can barely remember most scenes with him, most memorable being when he gets iced into stone.. Luke, Leia, Darth Vader, even the Emperor were cooler for me back then. And how cool is it that Leia is a general? Yes, her arc goes from being General->General, but that's a head above a smuggler and a kid training to be a Jedi. And she's royalty!

But I understand how that would muddy my views in this discussion, seeing as I never cared for Han as a character.(I do like Harrison Ford the actor, though)

Royalty doesn't make it better. Princess is practically a trope. She's not a general until TFA btw she's a princess throughout.

And yes if you don't like Han you're obviously going to be bias against his arc.

Reality Leia is memorable because Fisher was basically allowed to channel her natural feistyness into the character.

Original plan for her in ANH btw:

"I was hanging upside down with yellow eyes, like in The Exorcist ... Some form of radar torture was done to me and I was in a beam, bruised and beaten up, suspended in midair. The reason it was cut from the film was because I was unconscious and the Wookie would have had to carry me for, like, the next fifteen minutes."

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Royalty doesn't make it better. Princess is practically a trope. She's not a general until TFA btw she's a princess throughout.

And yes if you don't like Han you're obviously going to be bias against his arc.

Reality Leia is memorable because Fisher was basically allowed to channel her natural feistyness into the character.

Original plan for her in ANH btw:

She's still a leader to the rebellion, seeing as in the second movie(ESB) she's giving orders on Hoth. Sure not a general specifically, but a leader nonetheless. And of course I'm biased against Hans arc, it ended in the first movie, and it wasn't an appealing arc for him. Either way, the goal posts have been moved I supposed, seeing as this discussion started with the downplaying of Leias actions. I'm not here to judge Hans arc.

And yeah, that's great Fisher did a great job with Leia.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

I think he had one of the most interesting arcs in the movie next to Kylo and Rey's. Finn was the heart of the movie. He was the character that the audience could connect to the most, because he was the most human. He was charming, funny, strong when need be, yet has his own plotline that was not dependent on Rey. He was always going to defect. He was always going to escape the first order. He was more than likely going to find BB-8 on Jakku, and take him to the Resistance base for Poe, because he's a good person, and forms attachments to people quickly (more than likely due to the lack of close relationships he had as a trooper for the First Order). It just so happened that Rey found BB-8 first, and then he met Rey, and since their goals intersected, they paired up.

There's actually nothing wrong with having the black character be the comic relief that helps the primary protagonist, but more often than not in fiction, that is their only purpose in the story. In the case of TFA, Finn was his own character first, and a friend and aid to Rey second. That's actually a pretty important distinction to make.

This. Finn was the most relatable (and likable) character in the entire movie.

 

[MMarston]

So, I'm re-listening to the Dawn of the Planet of the Apes soundtrack and I think I finally realized something unexpected.


I do not want Michael Giaccino composing for these movies.

 

[excelsiorlef]

She's still a leader to the rebellion, seeing as in the second movie(ESB) she's giving orders on Hoth. Sure not a general specifically, but a leader nonetheless. And of course I'm biased against Hans arc, it ended in the first movie, and it wasn't an appealing arc for him. Either way, the goal posts have been moved I supposed, seeing as this discussion started with the downplaying of Leias actions. I'm not here to judge Hans arc.

And yeah, that's great Fisher did a great job with Leia.

Mon Mothma is also a leader. Just having a job doesn't make the character well treated.

To be fair both Han and Leia are strongest in ANH. Just happens that Han has an arc and a big moment and Leia has no arc and gets ti watch.

Talking about Han compared Leia in terms of arc and treatment is absolutely relevant and not a shifting of posts.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Mon Mothma is also a leader. Just having a job doesn't make the character well treated.

To be fair both Han and Leia are strongest in ANH. Just happens that Han has an arc and a big moment and Leia has no arc and gets ti watch.

Talking about Han compared Leia in terms of arc and treatment is absolutely relevant and not a shifting of posts.

Oh sure, when just talking about ANH. But Star Wars, the whole OT was invoked originally. Or maybe it wasn't, I've been discussing SW as the whole trilogy here.

And Mon Mothma was cool. Not as cool as Leia, but still cool.

(And when I'm talking Han/Leia, I'm talking throughout the 3 movies, not just ANH.)

 

[excelsiorlef]

Oh sure, when just talking about ANH. But Star Wars, the whole OT was invoked originally. Or maybe it wasn't, I've been discussing SW as the whole trilogy here.

And Mon Mothma was cool. Not as cool as Leia, but still cool.

(And when I'm talking Han/Leia, I'm talking throughout the 3 movies, not just ANH.)

Yeah but my point is it's downhill for Leia and Han after ANH, Han at least has a storyline and arc in ANH. Leia has nothing. Even being Vader's daughter is meaningless, she doesn't even get to face hin or deal with that, it's so blatantly a oh shit we have to reveal the other oh fuck it's Leia. They do nothing with it and she's almost worse for it because it means nothing.

Mon Mothma said like 4 words. She barely counts as a character.

 

[watershed]

So, I'm re-listening to the Dawn of the Planet of the Apes soundtrack and I think I finally realized something unexpected.


I do not want Michael Giaccino composing for these movies.

I've been saying this since Jurassic World. JW is the only composer for the job and I think, although it has its critics, the score for TFA has been really well received.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

There's actually nothing wrong with having the black character be the comic relief that helps the primary protagonist, but more often than not in fiction, that is their only purpose in the story. In the case of TFA, Finn was his own character first, and a friend and aid to Rey second. That's actually a pretty important distinction to make.

No there isn't anything wrong with the only speaking black character being a comedic role and being the "heart" of it. Though in the same breath Star Wars wants to beat it's diversity drums, they did bait and switch with Finn. They purposely got the media out that Finn would be equal to Rey in the story and had him with the iconic weapon of Star Wars. Instead we got a pretty typical plucky comedic sidekick. Even worse they had to go and make him the janitor (I cannot tell you how much I hate that joke). Star Wars is great for representing white women but let's not start praising the diversity when other minorities are only represented as the status quo. I'm half Jamaican and half Pakistani, I'm still waiting to see one South Asian character in the series.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Yeah but my point is it's downhill for Leia and Han after ANH, Han at least has a storyline and arc in ANH. Leia has nothing. Even being Vader's daughter is meaningless, she doesn't even get to face hin or deal with that, it's so blatantly a oh shit we have to reveal the other oh fuck it's Leia. They do nothing with it and she's almost worse for it because it means nothing.

Mon Mothma said like 4 words. She barely counts as a character.

Leia went from being just a princess who got rescued and handed out medals in ANH to actively participating and leading the rebellion by the end of RotJ.

Like I said, Hans solo arc ended in ANH. Throughout the films he was the cocky sidekick and aside from sharing a romance arc with Leia, his character remained static, he was a cocky pilot in the beginning of it and a cocky pilot by the end of the trilogy. Leia went from Princess to Leader.

 

[excelsiorlef]

No there isn't anything wrong with the only speaking black character being a comedic role and being the "heart" of it. Though in the same breath Star Wars wants to beat it's diversity drums, they did bait and switch with Finn. They purposely got the media out that Finn would be equal to Rey in the story and had him with the iconic weapon of Star Wars. Instead we got a pretty typical plucky comedic sidekick. Even worse they had to go and make him the janitor (I cannot tell you how much I hate that joke). Star Wars is great for representing white women but let's not start praising the diversity when other minorities are only represented as the status quo. I'm half Jamaican and half Pakistani, I'm still waiting to see one South Asian character in the series.

And by that you mean only TFA right?

 

[Kitschkraft]

No there isn't anything wrong with the only speaking black character being a comedic role and being the "heart" of it. Though in the same breath Star Wars wants to beat it's diversity drums, they did bait and switch with Finn. They purposely got the media out that Finn would be equal to Rey in the story and had him with the iconic weapon of Star Wars. Instead we got a pretty typical plucky comedic sidekick. Even worse they had to go and make him the janitor (I cannot tell you how much I hate that joke). Star Wars is great for representing white women but let's not start praising the diversity when other minorities are only represented as the status quo. I'm half Jamaican and half Pakistani, I'm still waiting to see one South Asian character in the series.

I agree with you that the sanitation background felt like a pretty big blindspot, especially for a movie being applauded for being progressive. Didn't like it, felt like "we" were being laughed at again.

 

[MMarston]

I've been saying this since Jurassic World. JW is the only composer for the job and I think, although it has its critics, the score for TFA has been really well received.

It's not even that I'm too clingy to Williams or anything. It's just that the themes of modern, post Medal of Honor MG seem to be "scit-scat jazzy beat" no matter what kind of tone he goes for. The truly melodic music is very few and far between. Even then, when he tries to utilize those for more quiet moody moments, the music can be way too damn light in instrumental usage.

I still love him, but he's sounding more and more inappropriate for SW the more I re-listen to his music.

If anything, James Newton Howard on his A-game is looking more and more to be an appealing replacement.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

And by that you mean only TFA right?

To be fair, all the female roles that had some semblance of importance in the OT, PT, and TFA have been white women, which is what I think hes trying to say

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

And by that you mean only TFA right?

Implied that and R1.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Leia went from being just a princess who got rescued and handed out medals in ANH to actively participating and leading the rebellion by the end of RotJ.

Like I said, Hans solo arc ended in ANH. Throughout the films he was the cocky sidekick and aside from sharing a romance arc with Leia, his character remained static, he was a cocky pilot in the beginning of it and a cocky pilot by the end of the trilogy. Leia went from Princess to Leader.

She was already a leader in ANH she was personally delivering the plans to the Death Star. She's a senator. She literally doesn't change.

Implied that and R1.

Fair. Though with R1 there's a possibility for some good racial diversity. We'll see

 

[BreezyLimbo]

She was already a leader in ANH she was personally delivering the plans to the Death Star. She's a senator. She literally doesn't change.

I dont know of many senators who participate in battle actively. Theres a difference between transferring plans, and holding a blaster and killing guys. Which she does by the end of the trilogy. Thats a change from the end of ANH where she just watches, to RotJ where shes helping take out the bunker.

 

[TheXbox]

I've been saying this since Jurassic World. JW is the only composer for the job and I think, although it has its critics, the score for TFA has been really well received.

I don't know why anyone would accept any other substitute. We're talking about John fucking Williams. Fifty Oscar nominations. The man who wrote the book and finished it - twice - on the longest running opera in cinema. But now TFA soundtrack doesn't have enough catchy pop tunes that people can instantly reproduce upon leaving the theater, so it's a time to cut him loose. No, this score is not as good as ANH or ESB; which is to say, it is not one of the top ten or top twenty greatest film scores ever composed. Tough shit. So long, Johnny Baby.

This is the franchise that allowed Geore Lucas to continue writing and directing Star Wars movies after Episode I. But let's fire John Williams because there's no Imperial March or Duel of the Fates here (except there is, and it's called Rey's Theme, but it wasn't heavily marketed so people don't know it). Even if we concede that TFA soundtrack is lackluster - which it isn't - hasn't John Williams earned a second chance?

Shit makes me mad

 

[aliengmr]

I agree with you that the sanitation background felt like a pretty big blindspot, especially for a movie being applauded for being progressive. Didn't like it, felt like "we" were being laughed at again.

That may have been a nod to Clerks. The idea that it wasn't Stormtroopers that built the second Death Star, but innocent contractors. "Does the average Stormtrooper know how to install a toilet main?"

 

[The Librarian]

Saw it for a fourth time last night.

Snoke says Kylo is the *last* of the Knights of Ren, pretty sure.

 

[Kilrogg]

Welp, Star Wars 7 just got me a date.

It's officially the best Star Wars movie ever as far as I'm concerned now.

 

[Prof. Bathtub]

One must wonder how the conversation about gender representation (in this series, and in tentpole movies as a whole) would differ if Lucas kept the idea of the Starkiller character being female. This is assuming the final story was otherwise similar to what made it onscreen, or at least enough to ensure the same degree of commercial success.

Would there be more equal-opportunity in action roles, or would Star Wars and Alien still be the relative outliers? One can never truly know in these what-if scenarios, but the fact is that one change could've shifted the perception that the OT had a lacking presence of women.

 

[Kin5290]

I agree with you that the sanitation background felt like a pretty big blindspot, especially for a movie being applauded for being progressive. Didn't like it, felt like "we" were being laughed at again.

It's not if you know anything about the military. If anything it outlines just how far he'll go to rescue Rey, in contrast to how he was willing to only run away from the First Order before.

 

[Messypandas]

Even worse they had to go and make him the janitor (I cannot tell you how much I hate that joke).

As much as I fault the writing of this film, there's nothing wrong with this. It feeds well into Finn's history as being a pacifist and not a fighter, makes it very believable the Empire would relegate him to "lowly" tasks until his first mission.

 

[Africanus]

 

[Ushojax]

Saw it for a fourth time last night.

Snoke says Kylo is the *last* of the Knights of Ren, pretty sure.

He called him the master of the Knights, not the last one.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Saw it for a fourth time last night.

Snoke says Kylo is the *last* of the Knights of Ren, pretty sure.

It's master. It says master in the novel too.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Fair. Though with R1 there's a possibility for some good racial diversity. We'll see

Eh not really. It looks like the same formula of a white lead and minority sidekicks (at least they are being honest with it). Then there is Ep 8,9, and the Han Solo movie. The only real chance is the rumored Bobba Fett movie (would prefer an Obi-Wan movie). Hell the only minority female has been a CGI alien. Hopefully they will resolve that in the future movies.

As much as I fault the writing of this film, there's nothing wrong with this. It feeds well into Finn's history as being a pacifist and not a fighter, makes it very believable the Empire would relegate him to "lowly" tasks until his first mission.

Finn isn't a pacifist. He is fighting from the escape forward and Phasma says his defection is his "first event." That "joke" comes to undermine his beat of helping the Resistance plan to destroy Starkiller and being useful to them. It is there to *again* undermine him as a character.

 

[QuantumZebra]

All her deliveries felt very authentic to me. It wasn't flashy, but that was a big part of her feeling like a grounded character. I like how her reaction to Finn swerves from threatening to trying to stifle her geeking out at meeting a Resistance fighter. Or how her tone builds from fearful to cool and collected when using the mind trick on the trooper. Dunno. I can't think of a single scene where she was anything but excellent.

People are running out of straws to grasp at.

 

[The Librarian]

So, some other observations from my fourth viewing:

- All the characters keep saying the map is a map to Luke Skywalker, when it's really a map to the first Jedi temple, it seems like. Leia was acting on the rumors — "those that knew him best" — that Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple. Find this Jedi temple, find Luke. That's why it makes sense for R2 to have the rest of the map — he doesn't necessarily have a map to Luke so much as he has a map to the first Jedi temple. R2 got this data from the Empire's databanks, and so did Kylo Ren. They're all looking for the first Jedi temple, where they assume Luke is.

— Assuming that Luke is at the location of the first Jedi temple, it means Rey has been there before. Kylo Ren, while probing her mind, recalls that Rey has dreams of an ocean, and from that he searches her mind, he goes deeper, and sees an island. What does this likely mean? Rey has been to the first Jedi temple. She has some connection with it. What that is, I'm not sure.

— I'm not entirely certain Han is convinced that he knows for sure who Rey is. He just doesn't have enough time to get that much information about her.

— The Jedi Mind Trick make sense. Right before Rey uses it, she hears a part of a communication from the soldier that's standing guard. Why would he be broadcasting that out loud? Here's the thing — that's Rey reaching out with her mind.

— Rey is not a Mary Sue. The movie gives more than enough justification for her being a pilot, an expert mechanic, and for winning the duel at the end. Anybody who says otherwise wasn't paying enough attention, at the very least.

 

[Kitschkraft]

It's not if you know anything about the military. If anything it outlines just how far he'll go to rescue Rey, in contrast to how he was willing to only run away from the First Order before.

Using real-world militaries to explain why ST could work in sanitation doesn't negate it being problematic for your sole black character being a janitor. The point wasn't that it doesn't make sense for them to have those jobs. Finn points out that he wasn't an engineer, and I'm sure they have cooks (Surprised they didn't give him this job /s), maintenance men, electricians, and everything in between, that's not a defense of his background. Neither is this negated by (maybe?) being a reference to another movie.