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[prag16]

They are conflating their confusion for poor acting or a character who makes no sense when he is anything but any of these traits. He is one of, if not the most, complicated character in the story and I think without blatant exposition, a lot of the layers were lost on these naysayers.

Agree. I really hate going with the "if you didn't like it, you just didn't understand it" route. I hate it when other people do that to me when I state dislike for, for example, things like David Lynch movies, and other pretentious masturbatory schlock.

But in this case the show may fit.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

I know, opinions and such, but the laundry lists of nitpicks people have been posting are almost more frustrating than the driveby "it sucked" type posts. (Almost.)

The pretentious critiquing that goes on just sucks all the fun out of the room. I should probably leave these threads.

Reminds me of this glorious post: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=190043169&postcount=432

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

I can see why Kylo's unveiling got laughs. Rey's interrogation is a bit of a silly scene, and his unveiling comes across like a clown saying , "look kid I'm a normal dude, don't be afraid." That's another point I have with the film is the unveiling should've been on the bridge scene. Would've had more of an impact.

 

[Sylas]

Rey's reaction even echoes what you just said. She was expecting a monster behind that mask.

I think people need shit spelled out for them anime style these days or some shit.

It's even more irritating because they do spell that shit out! The scene literally goes,

"Just give me what I'm after. This doesn't have to be hard."
"It's hard to be willing when speaking to a monster in a mask."
Kylo stares at her and does a little head-tilt and proceeds to remove his mask.
Rey stares at him like, "Oh shit, that isn't a monster. That's a guy. Oh shit."

And then Kylo proceeds to show that he's still a monster. He's goddamn violating her by saying, "I can take what I want," while literally breathing on her goddamn face. Like what the fuck, y'all.

 

[FloatOn]

Had my one and only viewing last night. You Driver haters need to step outside and get some fresh air, he turned in a great performance. I could have definitely lived without Finn existing in this universe, as he felt so contrived and forced the entire time.

In general, the movie was just A New Hope: The New Class with rehashed plot points and a ridiculous level of fan service, but I'm hoping all that is out of the way and we get two solid movies now. The table has been set, the nostalgia has been hung out to dry, and now it's time to take the series somewhere new.

Chewie was the best character by a landslide.

yes. I've been thinking about episode 8 for at least a week now. here's what I want:

- Revenge plot from Kylo Ren to kill Rey and Luke
- More political exposition to help people understand the resistance and first order
- More on Snoke
- Kylo Ren being taken to the next level via training - force lightning plz
- Rey being taken to the next level via hardship/training - I want to see her build a lightsaber or light staff
- Finn getting a sweet mechanical upgrade to repair his sliced back
- Finn becoming more of a leader within the resistance
- More stuff with Poe leading space battles
- Increased tension with Kylo Ren and General Hux
- Hux getting killed and replaced by Benecio Del Toro - Thrawn 2.0?
- Duel between Phasma and Finn - they are so obviously rivals at this point
- Maz aiding the resistance via a rag tag group of exotic aliens
- Ending duel with Rey and Kylo. Rey gets stomped but Luke jumps in and sacrifices himself to save her.
- Force ghost Luke
- Rey's origin

I think this is all pretty realisitic

 

[Boke1879]

They are conflating their confusion for poor acting or a character who makes no sense when he is anything but any of these traits. He is one of, if not the most, complicated character in the story and I think without blatant exposition, a lot of the layers were lost on these naysayers.

Some people won't like the movie and I get that. That said some people are voicing issues that shows they weren't paying close attention or they expected tons of exposition to lay everything out for them.

I followed the movie fine on my first viewing. The second viewing I noticed even more. By my third viewing I picked on a lot of subtle things. Everything is pretty much laid out for you. My biggest issue with the movie is R2 just waking up near the end. But that's something that doesn't even bother me.

 

[Anton Sugar]

I can see why Kylo's unveiling got laughs. Rey's interrogation is a bit of a silly scene, and his unveiling comes across like a clown saying , "look kid I'm a normal dude, don't be afraid." That's another point I have with the film is the unveiling should've been on the bridge scene. Would've had more of an impact.

Nah, I loved it. I actually think he kinda handsome in that scene and he plays it perfectly. Didn't hear any laughs or snickers in my three viewings.

 

[prag16]

Reminds me of this glorious post: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=190043169&postcount=432

Oh man, that IS indeed glorious. The blurbs perfectly capture the feel of the type of negativity we're seeing in these threads, as well as the obviously the type of negativity leveled at those particular games by vocal minorities.. 10/10 post.

 

[Daemul]

Of course he was. If he wasn't, Lucas wouldn't have written him that way. The problem is that this vision also happens to be incredibly shitty, and a bunch of writers had to come in and salvage that character with an animated series that is largely irrelevant to a lot of the people watching these movies.

Lucas had a major hand in the animated series as well, so I'm not sure whether the shitty movie protrayal was unintended or whether Dave Filoni was able to weed out Lucas' bad ideas somewhat when making the series.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

Rey's reaction even echoes what you just said. She was expecting a monster behind that mask.

I think people need shit spelled out for them anime style these days or some shit.

People forgot or never learned how to interpret visual storytelling.

If the greatest movie in cinematic history came out today and it didn't feature any spoken dialogue, people would call it shit.

 

[Falk]

Considering how often R2's turning on comes up and how often the official explanation has to be mentioned over and over again, they did a piss poor job at it. :|

“BB-8 comes up and says something to him, which is basically, ‘I’ve got this piece of a map, do you happen to have the rest?’ The idea was, R2 who has been all over the galaxy, is still in his coma, but he hears this. And it triggers something that would ultimately wake him up.

 

[Alx]

- Force ghost Luke

What's the canon rule about force ghosts by the way ? Can they stay around forever ? Should we expect to see Anakin, Obiwan and Yoda ghosts in the future ? Will the ghost plane become too crowded if all future jedis go there ?

 

[Sylas]

I haven't seen it a second time but about this point:

Remind me, did Rey show up in that scene? My thought watching it was: They make it a point to highlight how he shut down after Luke left, Rey shows up, he turns on...

Hmmmm.

It was either Abrams or someone on the production-end of things that said Rey showing up and R2 turning back on aren't related. He literally just took a while to wake up because he's an old droid.

BB-8 apparently asked him if he had any information during their earlier scene and he was just... bootin' up, I guess.

It's probably the only scene I really have a problem with as well--if only because it felt like they got to the end and weren't sure how to get the rest of the map into the group's hands. It would've been cool if they'd obtained it off of Starkiller Base somehow.

 

[gatti-man]

That's EXACTLY how Kylo Ren came across. Whiny and annoying with zero likeable qualities.

Episode VII was better than the OT, but the villains in the OT (Vader, Palps) are far superior

Sure I do. Good acting = Charlize Theron in Mad Max: Fury Road. Bad acting = whatever the hell Adam Driver was doing in Episode VII. I'd trade Captain Phasma for him in the next film tbqh.

It's time Star Wars gets a strong, female villain and Brienne of Tarth could have been it smh. A missed opportunity.

Adam driver might look a little soft/nerdy but his acting was spot on and wonderful. My only hope is he hardens up visually for the sequel. I think people aren't used to seeing him do this type of thing so they automatically reject his acting.

 

[ViciousDS]

so is it speculation that Kylo Ren is a really good force user and still isn't very good with a light-saber, hence the call back that he needs to return to his master to finish training.. Because that stormtrooper looked more adept at swinging something around then he did.

 

[Boke1879]

People forgot or never learned how to interpret visual storytelling.

If the greatest movie in cinematic history came out today and it didn't feature any spoken dialogue, people would call it shit.

I think the biggest problem is people are basing their dislike for Ren mostly on his looks. Which is stupid as shit. There is nothing wrong with him. Also when he takes off the mask is not an issue either. When he does that is the first moment The protagonist and Antagonist meet face to face.

And I think most people are upset that they didn't get Vader 2.0. Yet many of those same people complain this movie is a 1:1 remake of ANH.

That's the point though. Ren is not meant to be Vader and he never will be. Now we get to see his growth as a character and villain rather than him being some established badass.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

It was either Abrams or someone on the production-end of things that said Rey showing up and R2 turning back on aren't related. He literally just took a while to wake up because he's an old droid.

BB-8 apparently asked him if he had any information during their earlier scene and he was just... bootin' up, I guess.

It's probably the only scene I really have a problem with as well--if only because it felt like they got to the end and weren't sure how to get the rest of the map into the group's hands. It would've been cool if they'd obtained it off of Starkiller Base somehow.

All they needed was a zoom in on R2 after BB8 rolls away and a slight spark before cutting away.

 

[Falk]

R2 just needs to run CCleaner because that's a ridiculously long time to wake from sleep mode.

Christ.

edit: and before everyone piles on me, aliens in Independence Day used OSX.

 

[MadLaughter]

Saw people throwing around the designation TR-8R for that trooper, which is pretty good. I really want him to get a comic.

 

[Sylas]

All they needed was a zoom in on R2 after BB8 rolls away and a slight spark before cutting away.

Y'know, yeah. This would have solved that portion in my eyes.

Saw people throwing around the designation TR-8R for that trooper, which is pretty good. I really want him to get a comic.

Nah, the best is FN-B4D455.

 

[NumberThree]

So, how did nobody at Maz's place realize that the one First Order scout there was, well, with the First Order? She looked like a Sith! She might as well have been on one of those Covergirl Star Wars ads promoting the dark side!

She's not with the First Order, she's just a mercenary.

Half the creatures in that place are probably mercenaries.

 

[Boke1879]

so is it speculation that Kylo Ren is a really good force user and still isn't very good with a light-saber, hence the call back that he needs to return to his master to finish training.. Because that stormtrooper looked more adept at swinging something around then he did.

Go back to him being shot with Chewie's crossbow, being very emotional after killing his father. Now look at his fight with Finn. Initially he's just toying with Finn until Finn lands a blow on his shoulder. Then Kylo really ramps shit up and disposes of Finn quickly.

The first part of the fight with Rey. She's pretty much on the run most of time. Kylo is kinda swinging wildly but he also doesn't want to kill her. Remember Snoke tells him to bring her to him and he also mentions wanting to teach her the force.

Ren also underestimated Rey and how clear her mind is in letting the force guide her. This shocks and surprises him and it really shows like you said his training isn't complete.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

I think the biggest problem is people are basing their dislike for Ren mostly on his looks. Which is stupid as shit. There is nothing wrong with him. Also when he takes off the mask is not an issue either. When he does that is the first moment The protagonist and Antagonist meet face to face.

And I think most people are upset that they didn't get Vader 2.0. Yet many of those same people complain this movie is a 1:1 remake of ANH.

That's the point though. Ren is not meant to be Vader and he never will be. Now we get to see his growth as a character and villain rather than him being some established badass.

The fact that he is Han and Leia's kid makes me intrigued on what happen between them. Him looking like normal makes sense. And his scene with Han was awesome. I felt like he really was conflicted, even though you could knew what was ultimately going to happen later on. His acting, for a small period, gave you a small sliver of hope that maybe things might not turn out the way you thought they would.

But then the lights went out.

 

[Eidan]

I'm not sure how anyone could describe Kylo Ren as "whiny". Whiny about what?

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

I think the biggest problem is people are basing their dislike for Ren mostly on his looks. Which is stupid as shit. There is nothing wrong with him. Also when he takes off the mask is not an issue either. When he does that is the first moment The protagonist and Antagonist meet face to face.

And I think most people are upset that they didn't get Vader 2.0. Yet many of those same people complain this movie is a 1:1 remake of ANH.

That's the point though. Ren is not meant to be Vader and he never will be. Now we get to see his growth as a character and villain rather than him being some established badass.

This is a great post, I totally agree. I admit there were times when I wished Kylo was more like Vader, simply because Vader is one of the most iconic badasses in the history of fiction (if not the most), but Kylo is something new and different for the series which is exiting in its own way.

 

[ViciousDS]

Go back to him being shot with Chewie's crossbow, being very emotional after killing his father. Now look at his fight with Finn. Initially he's just toying with Finn until Finn lands a blow on his shoulder. Then Kylo really ramps shit up and disposes of Finn quickly.

The first part of the fight with Rey. She's pretty much on the run most of time. Kylo is kinda swinging wildly but he also doesn't want to kill her. Remember Snoke tells him to bring her to him and he also mentions wanting to teach her the force.

Ren also underestimated Rey and how clear her mind is in letting the force guide her. This shocks and surprises him and it really shows like you said his training isn't complete.

ok....because I was like damn.....this dude just looks like hes hacking away at anything. Like me swinging a sword in a sword fight.....I look like an idiot. Really hoping we get some chorography in the future two for a fight lol

 

[Future PhaZe]

I really hope they recast Kylo Ren in the next two movies. The casting for the rest of the characters is so spot on, so it makes it stand out even more how they botched the villain. Adam Driver's acting is Hayden Christensen level bad, but at least Hayden had good looks to soften the blow a bit. It's not a good sign when people in the theater giggle when Ren pulls off his mask for the first time. Yikes.

Worst casting decision since Mark Ruffalo took over as the Hulk.

I wonder if this kind of discussion about looks would be acceptable if directed towards a female.

I find it pretty disgusting to be honest.

 

[Boke1879]

The fact that he is Han and Leia's kid makes me intrigued on what happen between them. Him looking like normal makes sense. And his scene with Han was awesome. I felt like he really was conflicted, even though you could knew what was ultimately going to happen later on. His acting, for a small period, gave you a small sliver of hope that maybe things might not turn out the way you thought they would.

But then the lights went out.

Oh he was definitely conflicted and there was a small sliver of hope they maybe he wouldn't do it. But now that's thrown out the window. I think his descent to the darkside and to push out the light is complete.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

Go back to him being shot with Chewie's crossbow, being very emotional after killing his father. Now look at his fight with Finn. Initially he's just toying with Finn until Finn lands a blow on his shoulder. Then Kylo really ramps shit up and disposes of Finn quickly.

The first part of the fight with Rey. She's pretty much on the run most of time. Kylo is kinda swinging wildly but he also doesn't want to kill her. Remember Snoke tells him to bring her to him and he also mentions wanting to teach her the force.

Ren also underestimated Rey and how clear her mind is in letting the force guide her. This shocks and surprises him and it really shows like you said his training isn't complete.

add to that
Even though his movements seemed fine, you could see on his face (sweating, speech, etc...) that he was a wreck, compared to Rey.

He also was waiting for her to accept his offer of training her when she closed her eyes. Her sudden attack caught him off guard.

 

[The Lamonster]

I'm not sure how anyone could describe Kylo Ren as "whiny". Whiny about what?

Do you remember all those times he lost his temper like a teenage boy that was just told he is grounded?

 

[prag16]

Considering how often R2's turning on comes up and how often the official explanation has to be mentioned over and over again, they did a piss poor job at it. :|

Could be misdirection if there's a "real" reason that they won't reveal yet due to spoiler reasons (e.g. Rey being Luke's daughter).

But at face value as it stands now, the official explanation does suck.

 

[Wreav]

Do you remember all those times he lost his temper like a teenage boy that was just told he is grounded?

Impetuous and short-tempered isn't "whiny". There is an added dangerousness to Kylo with this side of him, coupled with his powers.

 

[Arthea]

getting back to Snoke for a bit.
What made you think he's not Sith? It never even occurred to me, I mean I was sure he's a Sith Lord.

 

[DragonSworne]

What was with Han and the coat? Why did Chewie keep giving Han the coat? Why didn't Han want the coat? JJ, you suck. Thanks for ruining my childhood again.

 

[Pagusas]

getting back to Snoke for a bit.
What made you think he's not Sith? It never even occurred to me, I mean I was sure he's a Sith Lord.

JJ specificially saying "they are not sith" many times. But in regards to the movie, nothing was specifically said "he's a sith" or "he isnt a sith".

 

[The Lamonster]

Anyone else think Snoke is going to be smaller than human size when we finally see him in person?

 

[Eidan]

Do you remember all those times he lost his temper like a teenage boy that was just told he is grounded?

That's not whining. It's like some of you feel that "stoic" is the only trait a worthwhile villain can display.

 

[Falk]

Anyone else think Snoke is going to be smaller than human size when we finally see him in person?

I am going to hate you so much if this doesn't happen.

 

[Arthea]

JJ specificially saying "they are not sith" many times. But in regards to the movie, nothing was specifically said "he's a sith" or "he isnt a sith".

That's odd... I mean why through the sith out of the window suddenly for no reason that I can see.

Anyone else think Snoke is going to be smaller than human size when we finally see him in person?

This thought did occur to me, I won't lie

Spoiler

that he's a midget

but it's probably not so

 

[The Lamonster]

Impetuous and short-tempered isn't "whiny". There is an added dangerousness to Kylo with this side of him, coupled with his powers.

Whatever you wanna call it, people don't want to sit though that. It's not fun or cool. I think everyone was hoping for a cool Vader or Palpatine-level villain and all they got was a poor man's Hayden Christensen Anakin character and a CGI I Am Legend-looking guy with zero back story.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

Oh he was definitely conflicted and there was a small sliver of hope they maybe he wouldn't do it. But now that's thrown out the window. I think his descent to the darkside and to push out the light is complete.

It's not.

Remember the beginning when he killed the old man.
That was someone he knew before being Kylo Ren, The old man says I know you and you can't deny your family.

Kylo then killed him.
Kylo descended further into the dark side at that point just as Poe tried to shoot him. That descent made him more powerful and he was allowed to stop the blast.


Fast forward to Han.

He was basically doing the same thing, but this time he thought he would be even more powerful because he was literally going to reject/deny his old self by killing his father. But, the act of killing his father had the opposite effect, (you can see it on his face) and this allowed Chewie to get a hit off him.

Kylo will definitely level up by the next movie, but his father's death didn't give him the boost he was looking for like it did in the beginning.

 

[Sou Da]

Anyone else think Snoke is going to be smaller than human size when we finally see him in person?

I'm hoping he's an actual giant so that him being cg makes sense.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

That's odd... I mean why through the sith out of the window suddenly for no reason that I can see.

Because they died with Vader and the Emperor?

Jedi and Sith aren't the only Force users in the galaxy.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

Do you remember all those times he lost his temper like a teenage boy that was just told he is grounded?

It's not like he sat down and started crying pitifully or something. Anger and a short temper are not synonymous with whininess.

 

[Alx]

Anyone else think Snoke is going to be smaller than human size when we finally see him in person?

Obviously.

Spoiler

Seriously, what kind of name is Snoke ?

 

[Sylas]

Whatever you wanna call it, people don't want to sit though that. It's not fun or cool. I think everyone was hoping for a cool Vader or Palpatine-level villain and all they got was a poor man's Hayden Christensen Anakin character and a CGI I Am Legend-looking guy with zero back story.

Except a shitload of people think it's super cool and a lot more fun than yet another big-dick swagswagswag villain.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

Whatever you wanna call it, people don't want to sit though that. It's not fun or cool. I think everyone was hoping for a cool Vader or Palpatine-level villain and all they got was a poor man's Hayden Christensen Anakin character and a CGI I Am Legend-looking guy with zero back story.

Everybody in theater I was at loved both scenes with Kylo venting

There was no way anyone could measure up to Vader.
They had to go another way or else we would be sitting here saying, hes just a carbon copy of Darth Vader.

 

[The Librarian]

That's not whining. It's like some of you feel that "stoic" is the only trait a worthwhile villain can display.

I don't know, but for some reason a lot of people who see this movie don't know the basic definition of very common words.

"Whiny" topping the list. That's a word meaning "complains a lot."

Nothing about that describes Ben Solo.

 

[Interfectum]

Do you remember all those times he lost his temper like a teenage boy that was just told he is grounded?

He's full of rage and hate and has no idea how to control it (yet). So when something doesn't go his way he's going to react badly. Teenagers can suffer from the same issues but it's not exclusive to them.

 

[bob_arctor]

My only problem with Kylo was that when he took off the mask, I was all "Oh, it's that asshole from Girls", and recognizing him as such took me out of the movie for a bit, but really, it's my fault for ever watching Girls at all.

I wish he had been an unknown actor who would have turned in a star performance, but that's just me.

Regardless, Driver did a fine job and I got over my initial reaction quickly. I like the idea of him eventually becoming the Vader-like badass he longs to be and that his emotional insecurity will be lessened by the next movie (though not yet entirely gone, hopefully). Killing his father goes a long way in that regard.