I think it's as likely that her dreams were preemptive, unconscious Force visions of the future too, rather than buried memories.
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
I think it's as likely that her dreams were preemptive, unconscious Force visions of the future too, rather than buried memories.
JaseMath
Member
Saw this on Twitter:
That's a neat photo, but let's be real: Adam Driver looks nothing like Harrison Ford.
WadiumArcadium
Member
Count Dookkake
Member
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Trigonometrize.
Member
Yeah. I, too, hate seeing the central characters in stories grow like real people. /s
The word itself can get a bit annoying, but it's there to pin down literally the ultimate point of characters. And for something like Star Wars, it's kind of a big deal.
Count Dookkake
Member
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The Librarian
Banned
I've seen the movie four times. I think that's really unfair to him. Yeah, he's funny, but Finn is far more than "the comedic role." His range far exceeds that.
Historically, it hasn't been. That's why TFA is so awesome.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
The one that was blown up? Also wasn't she in complete face paint the entire time?
Meant moving forward, TFA, 8,9, and R1.
Count Dookkake
Member
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The Librarian
Banned
And it's awesome!!
Trigonometrize.
Member
I hate the current obsession with "lol" as an argument.
Every character has an arc, you understand? Like, everybody starts out somewheres, then they do something or something gets done to them. Changes their life. That's called their arc. Take Richard Kimble...
no, that's no good. His arc is run, run, jump off a dam, run.
Count Dookkake
Member
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Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Yeah it's great for white women, but let's not beat the drums that Star Wars is being progressive for minorities. There is still a very long way to go.
You can't claim representation when it's completely masked. I wouldn't equate Asian representation with Nien Nunb for instance.
Kitschkraft
Member
It's not like a recipe, where you add more flour to even out the milk or something. You can't negate problematic aspects of a character by balancing them out with adding "range" on top of it. Hell, most black-sidekick characters are given something substantial along with the their typical caveats, that's not unusual.
Count Dookkake
Member
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The Librarian
Banned
actually, that is being progressive for minorities, given that we are a significant minority in TV/film.
What are the problematic aspects of Finn's character?
BreezyLimbo
Banned
If we start ranking it as a totem pole, White Men/White Women tower above everyone else. Yes, there's a huge gap between white men and white women, but there's just as big as gap between white women and everyone else.
So....if your definition of being progressive is white women getting as many parts as white men, then you're ignoring alot of minorities.
The Librarian
Banned
You're arguing something different from what I was saying.
The Librarian
Banned
Less than 12% is towering? http://variety.com/2015/film/news/w...vies-study-hunger-games-gone-girl-1201429016/
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Like I said, out of that 12%, over 70% of the roles were given to white women.
So yes, towering. But it seems you stopped reading at 'towering' instead of continuing to the part afterwards.(Granted my link is from 2014, but the stats should be similar)
The Librarian
Banned
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I question what you read of my post.
"There is a huge gap between white males given roles and white women"
"However, there is just a huge gap(Of about 70%) between white women and everyone else."
It's very rare I have to repeat myself. Of course you can cherry pick a few words and try to misrepresent my argument, but I don't play that game.
The Librarian
Banned
Dude, you took issue with me saying that having a white, FEMALE lead is being progressive and making progress in representation. Given the gender breakdowns you've been shown.
Holy moly!
I in fact have gif proof!
I never even noticed the ships in my two viewings, that's pretty neat.
I can't imagine the entire fleet was in just the current home system of the New Republic, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a good percentage of it though to put them on more equal footing with The First Order. They both were supposed to be guarding their own sections of the galaxy, I can't imagine the NR doesn't have fleets patrolling out there or that TFO has the only one capital ship we saw.
Part of me is hoping that there was just X-Wings because the Resistance is just supposed to be a small group using old Rebel tech, and that the Republic would be using something different. X-Wings I believe were supposed to be the most versatile ship the Rebel Alliance had.
I imagine the NR and FO will be at war at this point, so hopefully we will be going into the new films with some space battles which includes a host of new ships on either side.
I strongly disagreee.
Real people are messy and complicated. Arcs are fine for stuff like Star Wars but lets not elevate the idea to being some base requirement for exploring humanity.
Duke of Burgundy isn't about exploring character arcs. All this focus on arcs is actually fueled by an obsession with plot. Character studies don't necessarily need them.
Arcs are not a fundamental element to mature stortelling, but they really help sell a sequel or get you to binge watch a tv show.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Because you handwaived Dubbeds concerns for having diversity in ethnic females represented by essentially saying "a white woman is good for all minorities." when it is in fact good for white females.
Its making progress in white representation, yes you are right on that point. But like dubbed, I would like to see more ethnic female leads, being Mexican myself
How is it a bait and switch with Finn? I don't get that line of thinking. We don't know if Finn is force sensitive, but everything we saw of him in the trailers he did in the movie. It wasn't like Metal Gear Solid 2, where they actually inserted Snake as the playable character into scenes where in the actual game, it was Raiden, to keep the surprise.
Rey embracing her destiny was always the plot of the movie. Finn was always the secondary lead. Disney and Lucasfilm really wanted to keep Rey's big moment a secret because it's a pretty cool moment in the film.
Finn fighting Kylo and losing isn't a knock against his character. It actually highlights one of his major character traits and the point of his arc. He was running the entire movie. He kind of has the Han Solo ANH arc, in that he isn't particularly interested in the Rebellion/Resistance, but it's a means to an end (paying off his debt to Jabba/getting away from the First Order). Finn does a few key things in the latter half of the movie that cement his heroic arc:
1) he turns back from leaving Takodana after the Starkiller Base destroys Hosnian Prime. He could have just hopped on the ship. It was no longer his problem. He could have disappeared, and let the chips fall where they may for the Resistance and the First Order. Instead, he ran to Han to let him know it was the Starkiller, which up until that point, the Resistance didn't seem to know existed.
2) after the battle on Takodana, when Rey is captured by Kylo, Finn makes another brave decision: he informs the Resistance about Starkiller's whereabouts, and volunteers to lead a mission to disable the oscillators shield generator, so the Resistance can disable Starkiller. This is very important for Finn's arc, because this is the moment he decides to fight the First Order. I mean that in he's not fighting them becausentheybare keeping him from escaping. He's fighting them because they have to be stopped. He's no longer running, and once they arrive on Starkiller base, he is committed to the end, no matter what.
Han: Are you sure you're up for this?
Finn: Hell no.
3) when Kylo corners Finn and Rey, and Rey is incapacitated, Finn has another choice to make. He can hand over Rey and Anakin's light saber to Kylo, and maybe Kylo will let him escape on the Falcon with his life (ha! Not likely...), or he can, against a more experienced foe, stop running and face his fears. He bravely and awesomely chooses to fight for Rey and himself. He wasn't going to run anymore, and he wasn't just going to roll over and die. If he was going to fail, he was going to do so looking it in the eye. It was the defining moment of his character arc in this first movie. Him winning against Kylo wasn't nearly as important as him facing Kylo in the first place.
Finn was very much equal to Rey. He's the second primary character we are introduced to (Kylo was first, and Poe is a secondary character). We meet Finn, then we meet Rey. That's treating him on equal footing just by film standards. We pretty much always meet the most important characters first.
While Rey was piloting the Falcon, he manned the turrets. Without him providing cover, Rey would have been shot down. They both celebrate their victory. Finn has more screen time with the returning cast than Rey. You can argue he bonds with Han more than Rey did. They have more of a back and forth than Han and Rey, and they go on the Starkiller base mission together. He has more one on one time with Chewie, even if it's played up for laughs (and a throwback to Chewie choking Lando). Chewie carries Finn to the Falcon, as well as loads him onto the medical platform and follows him after they return from the mission, implying that Chewie feels for Finn in some way. Chewie only goes with Rey to find Luke because the Falcon needs a copilot, and I doubt R2 qualifies.
He got to wield the light saber and used it for more than just cutting open a tauntaun. He used it to fight both a first order trooper and Kylo Ren. He killed one trooper with the light saber, but got hit with the stun baton when fighting the second. He lost to Kylo, but I already explained why him winning that battle wasn't the point of the fight.
Besides, Finn's arc is far from over. He had to get from first order defector to hero in this first movie. The wounds he's sustained in this one will no doubt inform his character in episode 8. Much like Luke in ESB, Finn is probably going to level up. His force sensitivity is up in the air, but even if he's not, he's a fantastic character. There is nothing wrong with the hero character having a sense of humor. People love Spider-Man because he's the plucky Everyman that takes it on the chin. Victory mixed with defeat. Finn didn't lose every battle he was in, but he ultimately comes off as a hero, even if he didn't stand victorious over Kylo Ren (which wasn't either of their arcs in this first film. Kylo lost to Rey, and that's going to inform his character in episode 8 as well; my thoughts on it are that Rey isn't going to be so fortunate in their second encounter).
The sanitation thing I never got the hubbub about. Yes, when he worked on Starkiller base for a turn, he was in sanitation. And? At the start of the movie, he was a member of Captain Phasma's murder squad. He clearly isn't just a "janitor." Military men often have different jobs throughout their military careers. They start low, work their way up, and often they get kitchen duty, latrine duty, guard duty, etc. it's not all badass heroics and warfare.
They played his sanitation assignment for laughs, but again, so what? We've already seen that Finn was a capable soldier (taking out Tie Fighters with both Poe and Rey, killing some First Order troopers with a blaster and light saber on Takodana, being vouched for as not having any problems by Captain Phasma after his defection). I find the harping about a throwaway line of him being in sanitation completely over-reactionary. Most of the typical black men in film tropes in this movie are turned on their ear.
And the diversity and representation in this movie go way beyond just a white woman and a black man. As I mentioned before, this movie has many different people peppered throughout the film. There are female first order soldiers. There are black, Asian, Latino women and men working for the Resistance. Oscar Isaac, who plays Poe, one of the most popular characters in the movie, is Guatamalan.
For Star Wars films, which has been almost exclusively white men and aliens, this type of visual diversity is unprecedented. What I'm trying to say is; baby steps. The Force Awakens has opened the door. I'm black and Samoan. There's no Samoan people in the movie, but that's not the point. I'm just happy to see the casting director of the film not just defaulting to white, whether the role is big or small. It's very possible that in a future film there will be some Jamaican or Pakistani actors and actresses present. EDIT: I forgot the queen of Naboo in Episode 2 is Pakistani. I actually think Padme's right hand man in episode 2 is Samoan.
What TFA showed the industry is that a big blockbuster can star non-traditional leads, and bring in the audiences. Star Wars was always going to make money, but the dialogue happening around this movie is how much people love Finn, Rey, and Poe as characters. That's very cool.
Finn didn't need to be T'Challa to be a cool character that audiences can relate to. Hell, in the climate we live in, where the dehumanization of black men in the media is prevalent nearly every time a police officer kills one, I find it wonderful that the most relatable and human character in the film is a black man. Baby steps.
The Librarian
Banned
I didn't, actually.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Thats what you said in response to dubbed. Its great for representation of white woman, yes, but thats not what dubbed was arguing. You handwaived him by saying "actually that is progressive."
Its ignoring what he said, since thats not what he was talking about in terms of being progressive. Correct meif I misconstrued you, Dubbed.
Her accent is pretty noticeable at least. And to be a stickler, there's also Depa Bilabba, who is a member on the Jedi Council and has a significant role in the Kanan comics.
Indians and Asians are particularly bizarrely overlooked in Star Wars though for some reason. Especially since so much of the franchise is influenced by Buddhism and samurai.
The Librarian
Banned
No. This is the context of what we were discussing:
This is wrong. I'd be tempted to call it bullshit, even. Diversity isn't limited to race. It encompasses race, gender, sexual orientation...lots of things! Minorities, similarly, encompasses a great many things. If you want to argue that Rey isn't a step forward for *racial* minorities, okay. You're right.
But that's not what was said! Dubbed specifically said "diversity." In terms of diversity, Rey being a woman deserves praise. Because Rey is a WOMAN and the PROTAGONIST of the film, and the next three films, and given Star Wars' terrible history with women, as well as our culture as a whole, TFA DOES IT DOES deserve praise for its *diversity* here. Her being white doesn't negate her sex a sex that isn't represented well enough in TV and film. A sex that is the MAJORITY of the US population.
Holy crap.
bengraven
Member
I in fact have gif proof!
Holy shit, I thought it was just ONE planet...
So I don't get it and neither do most people apparently, is the Republic done for then?
Interesting thing I'm seeing where people are suggesting that TFA isn't diverse enough because Rey is white.
Which is silly.
Now, if they introduce more female characters (not main, but important secondary ones I'd assume, Lando level, for example), which they most certainly should, I would like them to be non-white.
But saying that because 70% of all lead female roles are held by white women means that this really isn't a triumph for diversity is ridiculous when only 12% of all lead roles are female to begin with.
And 70% of those roles being white, and 30% being non white is WAY closer to actually being representative of the makeup of the country than having 88% of all leading roles be male, and only 12% female.
Also, and this is the important part. The gender and racial makeup of TFA is a GOOD START, but it is not the "ultimate endpoint" of being actually equal in terms of racial and gender makeup.
As I said in my previous posts, a lot of people, male and female, really don't grasp just how pervasive the gender disparity in movies are. TFA has more speaking female characters than all previous Star Wars combined (probably, I haven't counted but I'll bet its super close. Allow me this hyperbole) but women STILL make up a minority of actual roles.
A truly gender-equal movie of this sort, where half the characters are male, and half are female, would come across to many, especially men, as being utterly dominated by women.
If we assume the major characters are Rey, Finn, Poe and Kylo Ren, imagine if one of those latter three was female. Can you imagine the screaming? That would be literal gender equality, and yet there would be people who would not be able to handle that concept.
Which is silly.
Now, if they introduce more female characters (not main, but important secondary ones I'd assume, Lando level, for example), which they most certainly should, I would like them to be non-white.
But saying that because 70% of all lead female roles are held by white women means that this really isn't a triumph for diversity is ridiculous when only 12% of all lead roles are female to begin with.
And 70% of those roles being white, and 30% being non white is WAY closer to actually being representative of the makeup of the country than having 88% of all leading roles be male, and only 12% female.
Also, and this is the important part. The gender and racial makeup of TFA is a GOOD START, but it is not the "ultimate endpoint" of being actually equal in terms of racial and gender makeup.
As I said in my previous posts, a lot of people, male and female, really don't grasp just how pervasive the gender disparity in movies are. TFA has more speaking female characters than all previous Star Wars combined (probably, I haven't counted but I'll bet its super close. Allow me this hyperbole) but women STILL make up a minority of actual roles.
A truly gender-equal movie of this sort, where half the characters are male, and half are female, would come across to many, especially men, as being utterly dominated by women.
If we assume the major characters are Rey, Finn, Poe and Kylo Ren, imagine if one of those latter three was female. Can you imagine the screaming? That would be literal gender equality, and yet there would be people who would not be able to handle that concept.
I believe so, yeah. It's like they blew up all of DC.
He's not a janitor, he's a soldier. He's introduced storming out of a troop transport as part of an airborne assault company, not mopping floors. It's funny that it's the people who claim racial stereotypes in Finn's character who are overly reductive in diminishing Finn's abilities and accomplishments in this movie.
Kitschkraft
Member
Being the "funny black guy" who seems out of place in the universe. It's meant to be in a "fish out of water" way... but it's such a thin line between that and "black people are like this no matter the circumstance" way, and there were simply too many times where that's how the role played to me. That's probably the cumulative way to put it, if I had to narrow it down. But there are specifics.
As I said on the last page, giving him a background in sanitation was pretty shitty to me. Black character in a space movie who is a janitor, played for a laugh...the kind of issue that might not have been apparent when they wrote the script, but that should have been pretty obvious after they cast the part.
There were other things that bothered me about the character. Can't speak any of the languages. Doesn't seem to have any mechanical skills. Can't fly. No FS (No internal power). He's made incompetent in his own universe. And before some point out that he was good with a blaster (A blink and you miss moment in the movie) or good on the tie/MF guns, sure, but those aren't really skills traditionally alluded as particularly important in SW, and the ship shooting moments are more about other characters flight skills anyways.
Yeah, all of this can be explained away by him being a ST, I know. But I personally don't think that I should be expected, or that anyone should be expected tbh, to continually use internal logic to justify problematic characterization. The film is about their world, but it only exist in ours. And that's for any piece of media, or any type of movie. So for instance, if you make a movie about inter-dimensional aliens harvesting human slaves (And more on this in a moment!), you have to be cognizant of the fact that if you have some black humans in this movie...you're rightfully going to be expected to handle this issue responsibly. Because we actually have a real-world history, even if this hypothetical movie isn't commenting on it.
I'd also point out that his story was bordering on being a runaway slave running from Space Nazis, and it was weird as hell for me to watch this! Is this a stretch? I don't know. We've had Anakin and his mother, so it's not thematically unusual to the universe. Still, him being named by another man was brushed aside so non-nonchalantly. Sweet moment between the characters, but the phrase that keeps popping into my mind is blind-spot.
Edit : Also could be seen as thirsting after Rey. I kinda disagreed, I thought they were both growing closer towards one another, and he did straight up leave her at one point. But plenty of people seemed to point this out, so maybe my own bias shielded me from this.
Ultimately, he felt all too familiar to me, in ways that I was just praying he wouldn't. I don't think that the Kevin Hart comparisons I've seen are too far off. Obviously the jive aspect was played up less, but he still had that role, even if Boyega brought as much dignity to it as he could. Doesn't help that Lando was somewhat similar in ESB. After all of this, Mace ends up being the black SW character I have the least issues with. He was boring as fuck, but at least he seemed like he fit into the world without any caveats.
Some of this is, admittedly, anxiety about the characters future. He was used pretty well as connective tissue for this story, and he did have an arc. But I was kinda left feeling like he doesn't seem to have a particularly important place in the universe now, kinda hard to feel like there was much care put into his character outside of moving the story along for TFA and possibly as a bait-and-switch trickery. If that coma isn't used for anything other than to separate him from Rey, or it was just meant as some sort of thematic "cost" that characters have to pay to show that the world is dangerous or something (Although, I don't see why the latter would be needed, they killed Han, so our characters already paid a cost), I'm gonna be pretty disappointed.
On the misdirection, this isn't necessarily about the character in the film, more of a marketing/societal thing, but it's worth noting. Although I wasn't "had" because I read the call-sheet, also bothers me a bit. Once again, it felt like a blind spot. It was great for a woman to get that role (And it would have been great for a gay character, or latino, or Indian, or any other typically marginalized group, the list goes on), but using us as the "bait" doesn't sit well with me at all. We're waiting for "our shot" in these movies as well! I'm concerned that so many were okay with that. And before someone cites posters and such, as stated, I followed spoilers, so I was already aware, regardless of what general audiences thought. That's really not the point. The point is that they thought it was responsible to telegraph this black character to audiences as being a certain way, and he ended up being more of the same.
I still enjoyed the movie, the same way I can enjoy any movie with problematic aspects to it, and Boyega did a good job with his material, but I still got the wind taken out of my sails. I'm hoping that the sequels mend my issues with the character.
Trigonometrize.
Member
We're in a Star Wars thread right now, so when I say they're pretty important and then specifically that they're pretty important to Star Wars I'm not talking about all of storytelling as a rule.
The Librarian
Banned
Yeah, the fact that 70% of female roles go to white women (30% non-white), isn't much of problem if any! in terms of representation and diversity. That's right around the actual racial makeup for the US.
Interesting there is a rewrite going on, reports they are pushing back filming
http://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2016...february-new-asian-actress-in-contention.html
http://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2016...february-new-asian-actress-in-contention.html
The New epublic doesn't solely exist on Hosnian Prime (which was only the current capital since the capital rotates with elections). It encompasses most of the galaxy.
So unless all the other member planets of the Republic are really crappy and disloyal - and I can't imagine that Chandrila and Mon Cala and so forth are, especially Mon Cala - then there's no reason to believe that "the Republic" has been destroyed, just dealt a severe blow. It's like if Washington DC got nuked by the Soviets - the US would still exist, but the leadership would be wiped out. Except in this case, most of the military was also stationed at the capital planet. However, since the New Republic member states have their own individual Planetary Defense Forces, they may be able to form a new military rather quickly.
If true then on the one hand "yay diversity." On the other hand, you just know people are gonna go "blargh Chinese market pandering."
Never really had a problem with the latter though, unless it's done in the most excruciatingly hamfisted way.
excelsiorlef
Member
Wonder if that's the same role Tatiana Maslany was reportedly up for
Wasn't Tatiana being eyed for the same role as the one being reported?
Kitschkraft
Member
It's just semantics at some point. He's a soldier that did janitorial work on the SKB and it's played for laughs.
Sure he had some skills and victories, as I said, that doesn't negate anything. Plenty of problematic characters, of any type, have their moments. "Padma was a Queen and then a Senator, she spent her youth ruling over naboo, before transitioning to the senate where she wrote and voted on legislation. She also took part in the Great Battle Of Geonosis where she...." blah blah blah.
Thanks for the elaboration. I'll reply not to be argumentative, but to note what I saw in the film. I haven't seen these issues raised against Finn before, so I find them interesting.
Finn's injury is important because he know the moment he stood up that he was outmatched, but he did it anyways. Had he gotten off with a minor injury it would have meant his sacrifice wasn't all that much of a sacrifice.
It's a fair question to wonder what his role in the story is from here. Poe is a pilot in the Resistance. Rey is going to get trained. We don't know Finn's future, but I think it's too early to say he doesn't have a role. Han was a smuggler who joined the Rebellion and became a captain. Finn found his purpose in the film, I suspect he follows that kind of a path, but they did leave it unresolved.
I can understand some disappointment that he didn't get to take the same arc as Rey - before release I wondered if Finn was going to be a jedi - but I don't think his character was diminished for it. He had a different role, not a less worthy one.
That's not his character, though. Every character had serious and funny aspects to their personality. Poe, Rey and Ren all generate laughs as well. Finn has some of the most serious moments in the film; "you don't know a thing about me" to Maz; his confession scene to Rey; facing Kylo Ren, etc. When he took up the saber against Ren, it wasn't the funny goofy guy fighting a force user. He was out of place - outmatched - in that fight, but there were zero laughs to be had in that conflict.
He's not a janitor, though. He's a storm trooper in Kylo Ren's division. That someone in the military once had a non-combat role is perfectly normal. The joke isn't that he is a janitor, specifically. The joke is he had a job that was as far removed from someone who would know how to take down the shield as possible. No one laughs when Finn says he was in sanitation. They laugh when Han flips his lid that Finn doesn't know how to lower the shields. That's the joke.
All of this is explained by his background. He says in the film, "I was raised to do one thing" - be a stormtrooper. But, at no point is Finn made out to be incompetent. In one of his very first scenes, he takes up something he's not done before - being the gunner on a Tie Fighter - and does it effectively. He uses a lightsaber for the first time, and while he loses, is not incompetent with it.
I guess I'd follow this if I though any of Finn's characterizations were stereotypical or problematic, but I'm not seeing it. He's a former trooper on the run. He's given a wonderfully fleshed out arc that serves as a foil to Kylo Ren, and a parallel to Rey. I'm not aware of any part of his role that you can pin back to stereotypical treatments of blacks.
Interesting interpretation of the name scene with Poe and Finn. I don't see the issue given how it played out and why, but perhaps I have a blind spot myself.
I don't know who Kevin Hart is, but I don't see the Lando parallel at all. Their role in the story, their issues to deal with, personality, etc. are dramatically different.
To be clear, there was no bait and switch trickery in the film. At no point are we led to think Finn is going to have Rey's arc, or vice versa. The marketing kept Rey's story partly buried, but that's because she was the lead of the film (and was marketed as such), and they kept most of the developments in the main story out of the marketing.
Finn's injury is important because he know the moment he stood up that he was outmatched, but he did it anyways. Had he gotten off with a minor injury it would have meant his sacrifice wasn't all that much of a sacrifice.
It's a fair question to wonder what his role in the story is from here. Poe is a pilot in the Resistance. Rey is going to get trained. We don't know Finn's future, but I think it's too early to say he doesn't have a role. Han was a smuggler who joined the Rebellion and became a captain. Finn found his purpose in the film, I suspect he follows that kind of a path, but they did leave it unresolved.
To be fair, the marketing had a tough charter. Disney wanted to 1) keep Rey's developments out of the marketing so as to not spoil a key development in the film, and 2) show lightsabers in the marketing. Finn uses a lightsaber in the film. So, they show him.
I can understand some disappointment that he didn't get to take the same arc as Rey - before release I wondered if Finn was going to be a jedi - but I don't think his character was diminished for it. He had a different role, not a less worthy one.
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