WadiumArcadium
Member
Yeah, pretty sure it's the same one. It's the role Mbatha-Raw was linked to as well.
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
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Yeah, pretty sure it's the same one. It's the role Mbatha-Raw was linked to as well.
I mean, she could be the one, but that depends on what the hell the role even is.
The Librarian
Banned
The wording is kinda confusing. So are there two, new female roles?
Also..."But I dont know if the Bel Powely thing will work out. I said before there were two young female roles, now I actually heard that the rewrite will make these roles smaller."
Hopefully not too much smaller. Are we gonna see Star Wars' first female-female friendship? At last?
The report says its someone from a small agency and not well known. Sounds like a new person.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
No, thats what dubbed meant when he talked about "other minorities". That is why he brought up his own ethnicity previously to the conversation. Dubbed is talking about ethnic diversity. It appears that has gone over your head though seeing your next comment..
Star Wars is arguably an international product. After all both main leads are not from the US but European. To cite the racial make up of the US, while the films leads are European, is a bit tone deaf. And its that kind of thinking that leads to unfortunate things, like the Oscars this year being primarily white, being "ok" because white people are a majority in this country. Thats a nasty way of looking at things when discussing racial diversity and being alright with how it is through twisted logic like "its ok if the majority female roles go to white women, thats just how it is!"
Its that type of thinking that sets back things like racial representation in popular media. Smh. I stepped in to argue dubbeds position, but I see its pointless now.
Frankenstrat
Member
Why do all the other wing types get no screen time? ;_; I just want to see my big screen Y- and B-Wings
I'd say 95% of leading female roles go to white women though.
WadiumArcadium
Member
The Resistance don't have access to a huge or varied fleet by the looks of it.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
When it comes to blockbusters like Star Wars, it does seem like that. The only big blockbuster movie I can think of that had a multi-ethnic cast(regarding both males and females) last year was Furious 7.
They definitely have A-Wings going by the cover for the first issue of Poe Dameron.
Frankenstrat
Member
This is true. It is mostly wishful thinking on my part anyways. I'm just hoping they all weren't blown up with that senate planet and whatnot.
The Librarian
Banned
Yeah it is. Even if Rian were to get a delay that's still ehhhhhh.
December release for ep 8!
I can totally see it being pushed back, im fine with that if its for quality.
I just came back from my second viewing and regarding that Daniel Craig trooper. He's got the voice of the german voice actor for Daniel Craig. Was there any new info released regarding that appearance of Daniel Craig as a trooper? Confirmation? Sorry for going off-spoiler-topic.
kame-sennin
Member
So much this.
Ultimately, Finn was the cowardly, silly, childish slave stereotype. It's something that's in waaaaay too many movies and it bothered the hell out of me. Black people are almost always portrayed as childish (or dangerous or oversexed) and Finn fit that stereotype perfectly.
Yeah, it's done for. I tried to start a discussion about the effect the loss of the republic could have on the plot in future films, but instead people took it as another opportunity to complain that the film didn't stress the importance of the loss of the Republic. I thought it was implied, but that's apparently not enough. The elimination of the Republic cuts the Resistance off from any future support, leaving them insanely vulnerable to the growing threat of the first order.
While I'm sure using only X-Wings was a decision to keep "confusion" to a
minimum, I also think it highlights that the Resistance is incredibly underfunded. They pretty much just consist of Poe's X-Wing Squadron, and maybe some ground troops. I think it sets up a very grim, gritty conflict in episodes 8 and 9. The Resistance is on life support, despite destroying the Starkiller base. Since the First Order succeeded in wiping out the Republic, they didn't need Starkiller base anymore anyway.
The bolded would seriously undermine this new trilogy, and give credence to those that say that this is simply the original trilogy redux.
I don't want to see yet again some rebels going against an Empire. It was fun in TFA, but I seriously hope we get something different.
I loved TFA, despite it's flaws and I'm not complaining about its overreliance on using "the bones" from A New Hope (using JJ's own words). But I don't want too much of that anymore in VIII and IX.
Not saying I want another superpower against a superpower like in the prequels, but I do want at least something bigger than the current Resistance to fight against the First Order, If only to see amazing space battles that aren't just X-Wings led by Poe against more TIE fighters.
I REALLY wish some awesome capital ships survived the destruction of Hosnian Prime and Leia rallies what's left of the Republic and gets an even match against the First Order, with Luke and Rey building a new Jedi power in the trilogy. There's some hints in the extra material (Databank entry on StarWars.com/books, comics) that sort-of hint there's going to be a Republic left after TFA, but we shall see.
Enter the Dragon Punch
Banned
wew lad
kame-sennin
Member
The power to name things has incredible significance to the history of white supremacy, colonialism, and racism. Historically, it's been whites - especially slave masters - who have determined what things are called:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMPFQo5V-lA
And if you get to name something, you get to define it. When you define something (or someone), you determine its place in the world. A white man giving a black man his name strikes a chord with people of color. That's the entire reason why Malcolm (and many others in the black power movement) changed his surname to X.
I felt extremely uncomfortable when that happened in that scene.
heliosRAzi
Banned
It's a weak implication. The movie didn't make the Republic's destruction dire. The Republic barely had anything to do with our two main characters. This misstep could be forgiven if it's brought up in the next movie.
Since the New Republic's constituent states have their own planetary defense forces, there's no reason to believe that we won't see capital ships and larger scale battles. Especially if the NR controls Kuat, which would mean they should be able to construct a new fleet.
Unless of course they want to really force the situation to make the heroes nothing but underdogs, which would be really annoying.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Actually, characters don't have to change at all. They can remain the same throughout the story. It's just that the more interesting ones do change or have some depth to them.
Does it make a difference if the actor playing Poe is Guatemalan/Cuban, as Oscar Isaac is? Or that the character of Finn was not written with a specific race in mind? Or that Stormtroopers of all races/sexes in the film have identification codes instead of names? Or that Poe is rejecting the inhuman treatment of the First Order when refusing to call him FN-2187, which itself was a "name" defining Finn as less than human, nothing but an expendable number, and his "naming" as Finn is the first time someone is defining him as an individual person? It's not as if Poe is taking away Finn's identity and heritage by robbing him of his birth name, he's literally showing Finn that he is a person which only strengthens Finn's existing desire to abandon the First Order.
I don't know what to make of this, and I'm a white dude so my perspective is obviously ill-informed, but this is the first time I've seen this argument against Finn, and I have to be honest it reads kind of like the whole "Mary Sue" thing leveled at Rey. Taking what is ostensibly a good thing and triumph of representation, and cutting it down for...reasons.
DarkJediKnight
Member
I just want my one-on-one, ship-to-ship destruction porn somewhere down the line.
EDIT: On that note, Leia vs. Hux needs to be a thing.
The Clone Wars show does this well, at least in the early seasons. EP3 starts like this too, over Corruscant
OricWindstar
Member
I'm more interested to see if she ever gets a significant scene with Kylo.
Yeah, but those battles were pretty much just for back-drop purposes. I want a battle that's the main event and primary focus. It would also put Poe, Leia, and Hux at the forefront.
Given their Force lineage, I won't be surprised if their scene may involve something akin to Luke and Vader in the aftermath of ESB's climax.
Yeah that well known bastion of non-white majorities, Europe.
What are you even arguing at this point
But it would be different. The first order isn't the empire. They're larger than the resistance, but still significantly smaller than the empire. Then there is the presence of Snoke. Personally, and this is just speculation, I don't think Snoke has any desire to set himself up as the emperor. I think he couldn't care less about the conflict between the first order and the resistance, but he is using this conflict as a tool to achieve his ends, whatever thy may be. He seems to only be legitimately interested in two things: completing Kylo Ren's training, and eliminating Luke Skywalker.
That already stages this new trilogy in different terms than the OT. The resistance/first order conflict is the "Wars" part in "Star Wars," but I think the meat of the story is the conflict stirring between Snoke/Kylo and Luke/Rey. The other battle is just the backdrop. I can easily see Snoke disposing of Hux and the First Order, or setting it up that the tiny Resistance defeats the first order when their part is over, then Snoke and the Knights of Ren swoop in and mop up the bloody resistance in the aftermath.
I can see the battles in this new trilogy being more about guerrilla warfare and tactics, not large scale space battles with resistance fleets vs first order fleets. Both numbers don't support that kind of warfare. The scale of the war is smaller than in the OT, but important because of what it could lead to. Leia is trying to keep the first order from growing, but the republic didn't see them as a threat worth keeping an eye on, and supplied her with some measly support. Then they got destroyed. I'm very intrigued how the resistance is going to dismantle the first order. I don't think we'll be seeing anymore super weapons in this trilogy, personally.
Planeswalker
Neo Member
If there's any progress, it's that TFA is a family friendly and one of the more kid friendly action films that has a female lead.
Sure there's things like the Hunger Games but those are for teens and up and probably less exciting to kids than Star Wars.
There were a few threads on toys and young kids merchandising and how there is a lack of female characters on anything boy related.
Rey being a female lead in a family friendly "and" kid friendly action film is huge.
Also this is unlike something like Tangled (for example) where you can clearly see Rapunzel being a princess (sure she is doing action stuff but she is probably mostly seen as a girl princess by most young kids).
Kids base their views from what they notice of their surroundings on a young age. There's a lot of different cultures and a lot of different views based on the culture. One reason why a lot of cultures are so different and stay that way even in the modern days of the internet is because of how ingrained a lot of things are when people view things as a kid. So this means for any culture to really change, something has to be drastically done or else it'll stay relatively the same.
When I was growing up, I didn't really have any bias towards any specific gender.
A reason I guess is because I was around a lot of females while I was growing up. So I wasn't afraid of playing as a girl character or playing with girl toys, etc or didn't really think positively or negatively of any gender even at a young age.
I agree that as a general film for progress, it could do a lot better for the under-represented. As a family friendly "and" kid friendly film, it's huge that there's a female lead though IMO.
With anything else (Avengers for example) you have male characters that do as much action as the female characters. For young kids, they can just separate which gender they want to really notice (for example) in toys or anything.
With TFA, it's basically unavoidable to notice that Rey is the main person doing all the action sequences. For a lot of young kids, they'll notice this.
As for Finn, I agree they could have done things better "but" it really depends on what they do with his character in the future films too.
Honestly, I would have liked if they had a black woman playing Rey (if she's Luke child, they'll can change it but honestly I think I'd like it more if she was unrelated to anyone from the previous films anyway; we don't really know if she is even related to someone at all yet). That's an under-represented gender being presented as a lead in a family action film and also an under-represented race being presented as a lead in a family action film both for one actor.
In fact, maybe they should for any of the new leads in the future (we're not only getting the main series but also spin offs and side stories too, so yearly Star Wars and more potential for more diversity in casting for a franchise that attracts many). We'll have to see in the future though.
Sure there's things like the Hunger Games but those are for teens and up and probably less exciting to kids than Star Wars.
There were a few threads on toys and young kids merchandising and how there is a lack of female characters on anything boy related.
Rey being a female lead in a family friendly "and" kid friendly action film is huge.
Also this is unlike something like Tangled (for example) where you can clearly see Rapunzel being a princess (sure she is doing action stuff but she is probably mostly seen as a girl princess by most young kids).
Kids base their views from what they notice of their surroundings on a young age. There's a lot of different cultures and a lot of different views based on the culture. One reason why a lot of cultures are so different and stay that way even in the modern days of the internet is because of how ingrained a lot of things are when people view things as a kid. So this means for any culture to really change, something has to be drastically done or else it'll stay relatively the same.
When I was growing up, I didn't really have any bias towards any specific gender.
A reason I guess is because I was around a lot of females while I was growing up. So I wasn't afraid of playing as a girl character or playing with girl toys, etc or didn't really think positively or negatively of any gender even at a young age.
I agree that as a general film for progress, it could do a lot better for the under-represented. As a family friendly "and" kid friendly film, it's huge that there's a female lead though IMO.
With anything else (Avengers for example) you have male characters that do as much action as the female characters. For young kids, they can just separate which gender they want to really notice (for example) in toys or anything.
With TFA, it's basically unavoidable to notice that Rey is the main person doing all the action sequences. For a lot of young kids, they'll notice this.
As for Finn, I agree they could have done things better "but" it really depends on what they do with his character in the future films too.
Honestly, I would have liked if they had a black woman playing Rey (if she's Luke child, they'll can change it but honestly I think I'd like it more if she was unrelated to anyone from the previous films anyway; we don't really know if she is even related to someone at all yet). That's an under-represented gender being presented as a lead in a family action film and also an under-represented race being presented as a lead in a family action film both for one actor.
In fact, maybe they should for any of the new leads in the future (we're not only getting the main series but also spin offs and side stories too, so yearly Star Wars and more potential for more diversity in casting for a franchise that attracts many). We'll have to see in the future though.
OricWindstar
Member
Oh yeah, that would be really cool.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Is there a point anymore, gotta keep that status quo.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Intersectionality.
Pretty much this. Poe giving Finn a name isn't a white man imposing an identity onto a black man, it's a good guy who is giving an identity to a man who previously did not have one.
When people say that Finn is nothing but a silly and cowardly comic relief character it makes me think that they believe that a black character must basically be T'Challa in order to be a good character.
The key difference is that Poe does give Finn his name, then immediately asks, "is that alright with you?!" And Finn says, "Finn...Finn...yeah, I like that!" He was nothing more than a number, a callsign, and he wasn't being defined by Poe. He could have easily have said, "no, I don't like that name, call me Bill instead." I didn't see a problem with Poe cheekily giving him a name that was already a play on the "FN-2187" designation.
And yeah, I totally understand and recognize the role stereotypical portrayals of blacks have played on films, butninpersonally don't think Finn fits those tropes. Marlon Wayan's character in GI Joe is a textbook example of the sambo esque caricature blacks are often saddled with in film in television. I think Finn subverts those tropes by actually being a well rounded and defined character, with his own heroes journey independent of Rey's.
Most of the time, we are portrayed as the plucky negro comic relief, and that is our defining characteristic and purpose in the film. That isn't Finn. Finn isn't defined by being the black dude of the party.
Finn is good natured. He shows resolve, loyalty, determination. He is brave as fuck. He is intuitive. He's affable. He's funny. He's basically the Han Solo of the film. And yet he is also given some important moments of drama: when his comrade is killed by Poe, leaving a blood smear on his helmet. When Finn refuses to slaughter innocents. When he tells Maz she doesn't n ow anything about him, and how dangerous the first order is, when he confesses to Rey that he's a Stormtrooper, when he hatches his plan to rescue Rey, knowing that he's more than likely not going to walk out of it alive. And the key defining moment of his character: when he stops running and being afraid, and faces off against Kylo Ren, knowing for a fact that he wasn't going to survive the encounter.
But if you want to see Finn as the bumbling black jackass, that's fine. I personally see him as the like able, relatable hero who does some awesome things in the movie, and also made me laugh (although, Rey, Han, Chewie, BB-8, 3-PO, Leia, Poe, and Kylo Ren also made me laugh and crack up during the movie, but I guess only Finn should have been perfectly stoic; ironically, another black male trope when we aren't the angry black man or silly negro).
Seeing so many different people come out of the theater talking about Finn and how much they liked him and thought he was great is heartening to see. I've talked about this movie with my co-workers, my bosses, all of them different ethnicities and genders, and every one of them is like, "Finn was a great character!" And he was.
fastford58
Member
Third time seeing it the other night.
I think Kylo Ren is now my most favourite Star Wars character ever. For the first time in a Star Wars movie, I like a baddie for something more than him just being a bad ass.
I think Kylo Ren is now my most favourite Star Wars character ever. For the first time in a Star Wars movie, I like a baddie for something more than him just being a bad ass.
Just finished listening to the DP/30 interview with two of the effects directors for TFA; it was posted earlier in the week but I just now had time to listen to it. Some tidbits:
Yeah, he's great. Easily the most interesting villain in the series to date.
- The instabread Rey makes was a practical effect. The guy that designed it was actually annoyed everyone thought it was CG. :lol
- JJ wanted the physicality of the practical props and sets for multiple reasons. Partly because they would feel more authentic for the audience, and more closely resemble the work done on the OT, but also for the actors. JJ was particularly worried about taking new actors (since they were casting unknowns for key parts) and dropping them into a green screen ocean. The more they could have to respond to on set the better. I didn't fully appreciate this until I heard it, but I think it has much to do with the quality of some of the performances (recalling Ian McKellan's frustrations on the set of The Hobbit, for instance - and he's a veteran).
- The effects workshop rolled directly from TFA to Rogue One, without much of a break. Lucasfilm (not named, but probably Kennedy) wants the films to carry that same feeling of physicality through all of them, so the big effects workshop built for TFA is a permanent institution of ILM now. They reminisced about how the spotlights shifted from practical to digital, and now there's been this realization of how they can work together better.
- They marveled at Daisy Ridley and John Boyega's stamina when filming in Abu Dhabi. Most of the crew would get winded or drained in minutes out in the sun, and they were running all over the place, often with explosions going off around them. The physical training they went through meant the crew wasn't having to sit around and wait for them to recover very often.
Yeah, he's great. Easily the most interesting villain in the series to date.
Me and my wife may see it tonight for the third time, and yeah, Kylo is a top tier Star Wars character, not just villain. He is fascinating, personally. A very different antagonist than we are used to, but unlike Vader, he isn't set up to have a redemption arc. His loss to Rey at the end of the movie cements that he's going to evolve into an even greater threat for the next two films. You don't have the villain in the first movie of a trilogy get defeated and survive, only to keep him neutered later.
Snoke is going to train him, and he's going to kick Rey's ass next time they meet. It's going to be the true low point of Rey's arc, and a high point of Kylo's arc. We don't get to see many antagonists at the starting point of their antagonistic journey. Anakin wasn't a main character in most of the prequel movies, so his rise and fall felt hollow to me. Kylo has an interesting backstory. An inversion of the "seduced by the dark side" trope the heroes face. He is a Skywalker seduced by the light side of the Force, and he's fighting agains it. Him killing Han was his version of Luke destroying the first Death Star in A New Hope. The first steps of his "heroes" journey.
Episode 8 will see Kylo become more versed on the Dark Side, as Luke became more versed in the Light Side. To further the mirroring of Luke's heroes journey, Kylo will best Rey, as Luke lost to Vader, and in Episode 9, Kylo will have Knights of Ren swagger like Luke had Jedi swagger in Return of the Jedi. This will be juxtaposed against Rey and Finn's arcs as our heroes. It's a really interesting take on an antagonist for a Star Wars film.
Yeah that is a great watch. I also like the bit talking about the squib for blaster shots hitting a wall, and them trying to figure out a new way to do that and shooting all kinds of tests, and watching about 50 versions with JJ with different variations, color, more sparks, etc. Then them both having the realization they should just stick to how they did it in A New Hope, since those already looked good and anything different wouldn't be right.
Also worth watching this one with the digital effects supervisors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0t7FHeqP_qk
They touch on some good stuff like thinking about where they would physically mount cameras to an actual X-wing to get shots while it was flying, to inform the camera positions and movements during those digital shots.
It's weird that you're taking guy's dissatisfaction / discomfort as adversarial. You say you don't know what to make of it and then instead of trying to understand what to make of it, you assume bad faith on guy's part?
Also "the character of Finn was not written with a specific race in mind" obviously doesn't make any difference at all. What matters is what makes it to screen.
Yea the whole janitor thing made me roll my eyes and chuckle, but there are so many positives regarding Finn's character that far outweigh the small gripes, imo. He is an all around great and relatable character with a lot of potential.
And I totally understand how Poe 'naming' Finn could come across in a bad light, but after dwelling on it some I feel Poe had good intentions, like some others have said. Finn could have easily rejected that name.They also became quick friends during that daring escape so it reminded me how friends would give each other nicknames for better or worse hah.
And I totally understand how Poe 'naming' Finn could come across in a bad light, but after dwelling on it some I feel Poe had good intentions, like some others have said. Finn could have easily rejected that name.They also became quick friends during that daring escape so it reminded me how friends would give each other nicknames for better or worse hah.
I'll just say the reason my post was largely phrased in the form of a question was because I was legitimately asking, in order to perhaps gain a better understanding of the argument.
I don't mean it as adversarial. I compare it to the Rey/Mary Sue thing because that's what it reminds me of, and I think much of that argument comes from people making surface level observations of Rey to inform their criticisms, and unintentionally ignoring other aspects of the character that the text provides, and it struck me that perhaps the same was being done to Finn in this argument.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Awesome.
Good Job Bob
Member
It is a reach.
FN-2187 is his slave name, Finn is the liberatory name suggested by his escape buddy that he was completely free to accept or not.
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