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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

Yoshichan

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Just came back from massive shopping. Current Ren collection:

ThXvNeE.jpg


Without the helm and just outside random houses, getting solid photos another day

l48gjJd.jpg

e0t5vqk.png

mCcpK8f.jpg
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SolVanderlyn

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Figboy79 said:
Me and my wife may see it tonight for the third time, and yeah, Kylo is a top tier Star Wars character, not just villain. He is fascinating, personally. A very different antagonist than we are used to, but unlike Vader, he isn't set up to have a redemption arc. His loss to Rey at the end of the movie cements that he's going to evolve into an even greater threat for the next two films. You don't have the villain in the first movie of a trilogy get defeated and survive, only to keep him neutered later.

Snoke is going to train him, and he's going to kick Rey's ass next time they meet. It's going to be the true low point of Rey's arc, and a high point of Kylo's arc. We don't get to see many antagonists at the starting point of their antagonistic journey. Anakin wasn't a main character in most of the prequel movies, so his rise and fall felt hollow to me. Kylo has an interesting backstory. An inversion of the "seduced by the dark side" trope the heroes face. He is a Skywalker seduced by the light side of the Force, and he's fighting agains it. Him killing Han was his version of Luke destroying the first Death Star in A New Hope. The first steps of his "heroes" journey.

Episode 8 will see Kylo become more versed on the Dark Side, as Luke became more versed in the Light Side. To further the mirroring of Luke's heroes journey, Kylo will best Rey, as Luke lost to Vader, and in Episode 9, Kylo will have Knights of Ren swagger like Luke had Jedi swagger in Return of the Jedi. This will be juxtaposed against Rey and Finn's arcs as our heroes. It's a really interesting take on an antagonist for a Star Wars film.
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This is why I like Ren so much. In many ways he is the highlight of his film the same way Luke was of his, despite being the villain. I know Rey is the "Luke" of the new trilogy but in many ways she comes across as a more capable Leia of the "new trio" of Finn, Rey and Ren. People rag on the movie for being too close to ANH but it inverts its inspiration in so many ways that it feels like an entirely new story (for the most part... Starkiller Base excluded). The parallels are evident, but also blurred. Rey could easily be compared to Luke, Leia or even Han. So could Finn. Ren is an odd mix of Vader and Luke.
 
Yoshichan

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Thanks guys, didn't expect the response considering the only official Kylo Ren item I was wearing was... well, the lightsaber and that's it :p I was so excited to try it out so I had to take a few quick pictures.

I'll take some decent photos of me in better clothing, including helm and an environment that actually fits (forest) in a few days when college calms down.

Thanks again ya'll

edit: oh and if someone's decent at photoshop, I would love the one who would Kylo'fy my avatar!


Source:
Pw0i6vY.png


Something like this but without the shit editing (I'm terrible at photoshop).

kmXJb54.png
 
prag16

prag16

Banned
-griffy- said:
Does it make a difference if the actor playing Poe is Guatemalan/Cuban, as Oscar Isaac is? Or that the character of Finn was not written with a specific race in mind? Or that Stormtroopers of all races/sexes in the film have identification codes instead of names? Or that Poe is rejecting the inhuman treatment of the First Order when refusing to call him FN-2187, which itself was a "name" defining Finn as less than human, nothing but an expendable number, and his "naming" as Finn is the first time someone is defining him as an individual person? It's not as if Poe is taking away Finn's identity and heritage by robbing him of his birth name, he's literally showing Finn that he is a person which only strengthens Finn's existing desire to abandon the First Order.

I don't know what to make of this, and I'm a white dude so my perspective is obviously ill-informed, but this is the first time I've seen this argument against Finn, and I have to be honest it reads kind of like the whole "Mary Sue" thing leveled at Rey. Taking what is ostensibly a good thing and triumph of representation, and cutting it down for...reasons.
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I'm assuming the bolded is sarcastic. If it's not, I think it's a pretty major problem if the perception is that only black people can have a valid opinion on this. Kind of like how The Librarian had been repeatedly assuming and/or pointing out that those disagreeing with her were male while discussing Rey/Leia. These types of attitudes are a way to shut down discussion and don't get us any closet to a more "enlightened" future.
 
E

excelsiorlef

Member
prag16 said:
I'm assuming the bolded is sarcastic. If it's not, I think it's a pretty major problem if the perception is that only black people can have a valid opinion on this. Kind of like how The Librarian had been repeatedly assuming and got pointing out that those disagreeing with her were male. These types of attitudes are a way to shut down discussion and don't get us any closet to a more "enlightened" future.
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Oh lord, no , it means that people who aren't part of the aforementioned group, especially if they are in the empowered majority group, are less likely to be as aware or pick up on things due to not having to consider representation the way minority under-represented groups do.
 
F

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
Me and my wife just got back about 10 minutes ago from seeing it a third time. This time in 3D, which was pretty good.

So many more things jumped out at me this time around, but the biggest to me was when the Starkiller Base destroyed Hosnian Prime. Finn is about to enter the ship to take him away to Takodana, and you hear the screams of women and men. The ship is nowhere near the people in Maz' temple, and most of them are inside anyway.

Finn then turns and sees the planets getting destroyed. I think the screams we hear, and the sound effects accompanying the scream are Finn sensing the destruction of the planet and turning around. He had no reason to pause and turn otherwise. I'm on the fence on whether he is force sensitive or not, but that moment among a few others really jumped out at me on this viewing.
 
prag16

prag16

Banned
excelsiorlef said:
Oh lord, no , it means that people who aren't part of the aforementioned group, especially if they are in the empowered majority group, are less likely to be as aware or pick up on things due to not having to consider representation the way minority under-represented groups do.
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In practice, it often seems to boil down to the same thing though. Right here in this thread it's been used to dismiss out of hand thoughtful and reasoned arguments. That's when it becomes problematic. What you're pointing out here is very often used in an ad hominem manner to shut down discussion.
 
F

Fencedude

Member
prag16 said:
In practice, it often seems to boil down to the same thing though. Right here in this thread it's been used to dismiss out of hand thoughtful and reasoned arguments. That's when it becomes problematic. What you're pointing out here is very often used in an ad hominem manner to shut down discussion.
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This would be true except its been demonstrated that unconscious sex-based or race-based bias makes a huge impact on how people see the world around them.

Yes, white dudes do need to check their privilege when entering discussions on these matters, because white dudes are the most catered to demographic on the planet, ESPECIALLY in the context of genre entertainment.
 
prag16

prag16

Banned
Fencedude said:
This would be true except its been demonstrated that unconscious sex-based or race-based bias makes a huge impact on how people see the world around them.

Yes, white dudes do need to check their privilege when entering discussions on these matters, because white dudes are the most catered to demographic on the planet, ESPECIALLY in the context of genre entertainment.
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Nevertheless, it's still an ad hominem that is used to avoid having to address valid arguments. That's a bad thing no matter how you slice it.
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
prag16 said:
Nevertheless, it's still an ad hominem that is used to avoid having to address valid arguments. That's a bad thing no matter how you slice it.
Click to expand...

It's just like how Librarian dismissed Dubbeds concerns of a lack of ethnic female leads, saying that it was a good thing for minorities(All of them, presumably) that Rey(Being a white woman) is a lead. It was a literal dismissal of the argument Dubbed was trying to make. And then there's the whole 'It's ok for most female leads to be white'. Rhetoric she spouted when the discussion sprouted from Dubbeds thoughts on the racial diversity(Which I picked up the mantle for since it interests me as well).

Not only that, but Librarian keeps interjecting on discussions and trying to make things about gender when people are discussing Reys character in a spoiler thread.(Like when I was talking about how neat it would be for Rey to go dark side in a future movie, apparently I was suggesting it because 'Rey is a girl.'). I'm not against having a discussion on diversity, but there are people in this thread coming off as rude and dismissive, that it's hard to hold a conversation.

That's all I'll say about this before the spoiler thread goes anymore off topic then it already has been.
 
M

Mr Cola

Brothas With Attitude / The Wrong Brotha to Fuck Wit / Die Brotha Die / Brothas in Paris
Jedi steps now my favourite music from all star wars

Then Yodas them

Then Yoda and the force

Then Binary sunset

and so forth
 
B

Boke1879

Member
Mr Cola said:
Jedi steps now my favourite music from all star wars

Then Yodas them

Then Yoda and the force

Then Binary sunset

and so forth
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Right after my first viewing I listened to this on the soundtrack because it was so damn good in the theater. It is my favorite track. The Jedi Steps and the finale blend so well.
 
prag16

prag16

Banned
Boke1879 said:
Right after my first viewing I listened to this on the soundtrack because it was so damn good in the theater. It is my favorite track. The Jedi Steps and the finale blend so well.
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Jedi Steps and Rey's Theme are probably the standouts for me.
 
F

Fencedude

Member
BreezyLimbo said:
It's just like how Librarian dismissed Dubbeds concerns of a lack of ethnic female leads, saying that it was a good thing for minorities(All of them, presumably) that Rey(Being a white woman) is a lead. It was a literal dismissal of the argument Dubbed was trying to make. And then there's the whole 'It's ok for most female leads to be white'. Rhetoric she spouted when the discussion sprouted from Dubbeds thoughts on the racial diversity(Which I picked up the mantle for since it interests me as well).
Click to expand...

Trying to discount Rey as step forward because she's not ethnic is a fairly low thing to try.

Look at the four new characters: White Woman, Black Man, Latino Man, White Man. Thats pretty good on racial diversity, ok at best on gender diversity, mostly because Rey is the main character.

Kylo had to be white because of his parents, and while a female Kylo Ren would certainly be interesting, that would probably result in a male version of Rey, so that would be a wash.

Either Finn or Poe's character would work just fine as a woman, though I really would wonder about the cries of MARY SUE we'd get from a female Poe. As for Finn, eehhh? It again doesn't actually matter what race or gender Finn is.

As for Rey, yes she's white. This does not mean that she is marginalising "ethnic" women by her existence. In fact there is a black woman who (while unnamed) gets a fairly decent amount of screen time as the First Order operator in charge of firing the Weapon, and one of the X-Wing pilots (who gets a lot of focus and is one of the 7 survivors) is an asian woman. Plus Phasma who we know is white, and the unknown female Stormtrooper (who shows that Phasma isn't just an exception, there are ordinary female stormtroopers as well).

This form of argument is basically saying that since this step forward doesn't make things perfect, its effectively useless. Its a variation on concern trolling.



Not only that, but Librarian keeps interjecting on discussions and trying to make things about gender when people are discussing Reys character in a spoiler thread.(Like when I was talking about how neat it would be for Rey to go dark side in a future movie, apparently I was suggesting it because 'Rey is a girl.'). I'm not against having a discussion on diversity, but there are people in this thread coming off as rude and dismissive, that it's hard to hold a conversation.
Click to expand...

The glee at which some people want Rey to go evil and Ren to become good does seem highly suspect and the claim that it would be "interesting" barely holds water. I don't blame her for getting upset about it.

That's all I'll say about this before the spoiler thread goes anymore off topic then it already has been.
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Is this discussion even actually off-topic?
 
B

Boke1879

Member
Fencedude said:
Trying to discount Rey as step forward because she's not ethnic is a fairly low thing to try.

Look at the four new characters: White Woman, Black Man, Latino Man, White Man. Thats pretty good on racial diversity, ok at best on gender diversity, mostly because Rey is the main character.

Kylo had to be white because of his parents, and while a female Kylo Ren would certainly be interesting, that would probably result in a male version of Rey, so that would be a wash.

Either Finn or Poe's character would work just fine as a woman, though I really would wonder about the cries of MARY SUE we'd get from a female Poe. As for Finn, eehhh? It again doesn't actually matter what race or gender Finn is.

As for Rey, yes she's white. This does not mean that she is marginalising "ethnic" women by her existence. In fact there is a black woman who (while unnamed) gets a fairly decent amount of screen time as the First Order operator in charge of firing the Weapon, and one of the X-Wing pilots (who gets a lot of focus and is one of the 7 survivors) is an asian woman. Plus Phasma who we know is white, and the unknown female Stormtrooper (who shows that Phasma isn't just an exception, there are ordinary female stormtroopers as well).

This form of argument is basically saying that since this step forward doesn't make things perfect, its effectively useless. Its a variation on concern trolling.





The glee at which some people want Rey to go evil and Ren to become good does seem highly suspect and the claim that it would be "interesting" barely holds water. I don't blame her for getting upset about it.



Is this discussion even actually off-topic?
Click to expand...

I think I've only seen one poster actually want Ren to become good. Most want to see Rey fall to the darkside simply because it would be interesting to explore. She can even redeem herself so to speak. No one is advocating her falling to the darkside because she's a woman. I would have loved to see luke do the exact same thing.

I agree with Librarian just like I agree with Breezy. But anyone who suggests Rey go to the darkside is immediately met with a post just saying they are wrong. Both people are viewing it from two different perspectives. Both people are right and just argue in circles.

On a side note. You have many people, myself included now. That Finn may potentially get pushed to the wayside. As a black man that would be very shitty. While I like Rey. Finn is my favorite. Easily identified with that character.
 
prag16

prag16

Banned
Fencedude said:
The glee at which some people want Rey to go evil and Ren to become good does seem highly suspect and the claim that it would be "interesting" barely holds water. I don't blame her for getting upset about it.
Click to expand...

I don't understand how it's logical for people to have ulterior motives there. I don't see how it's obviously "highly suspect". I don't personally want to see Rey go evil. But you really think those that do, want it in order to marginalize a potential female role model or some such shit? It seems like you're reaching, as were those who were pounding those drums a few days ago when the thread was last mired in that particular discussion.

Fencedude said:
Is this discussion even actually off-topic?
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I'd say kind of. At least some of the paths it has taken.
 
M

MMarston

Was getting caught part of your plan?
This is gonna sound cheesy fuck but I think I now want the trilogy to end using the FULL version of the John Williams Throne Room piece at the end of ANH.

Doesn't even have to be an awards ceremony scene. I can see Rey, Finn and co flying the Falcon into the sunset with that theme for some reason.
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
Fencedude said:
Trying to discount Rey as step forward because she's not ethnic is a fairly low thing to try.

Look at the four new characters: White Woman, Black Man, Latino Man, White Man. Thats pretty good on racial diversity, ok at best on gender diversity, mostly because Rey is the main character.

Kylo had to be white because of his parents, and while a female Kylo Ren would certainly be interesting, that would probably result in a male version of Rey, so that would be a wash.

Either Finn or Poe's character would work just fine as a woman, though I really would wonder about the cries of MARY SUE we'd get from a female Poe. As for Finn, eehhh? It again doesn't actually matter what race or gender Finn is.

As for Rey, yes she's white. This does not mean that she is marginalising "ethnic" women by her existence. In fact there is a black woman who (while unnamed) gets a fairly decent amount of screen time as the First Order operator in charge of firing the Weapon, and one of the X-Wing pilots (who gets a lot of focus and is one of the 7 survivors) is an asian woman. Plus Phasma who we know is white, and the unknown female Stormtrooper (who shows that Phasma isn't just an exception, there are ordinary female stormtroopers as well).

This form of argument is basically saying that since this step forward doesn't make things perfect, its effectively useless. Its a variation on concern trolling.


The glee at which some people want Rey to go evil and Ren to become good does seem highly suspect and the claim that it would be "interesting" barely holds water. I don't blame her for getting upset about it.


Is this discussion even actually off-topic?
Click to expand...

Is it off topic? Who knows at this point. Either way, what happened was Dubbed was concerned with a lack of ethnic leads-the Rogue One lead is white for instance. We do have Finn and Poe in a supporting role, and some people had criticisms of Finns portrayal(The naming argument). Either way, Dubbed's concerns interested me as well, seeing as I was most excited for seeing Poe(Being a Latino actor). And nobody is discounting Rey, this whole progression has been about the dialogue that opened through Dubbeds views(Which I jumped in to read and participate in.)


And the existence of Rey isn't marginalizing any ethnic women. I don't think that was an argument being made. When I jumped into the argument, it was to call out Librarian being dismissive of Dubbeds thoughts on it, which irked me. You're right that type of concern trolling exists, but at the same time when having a discussion, Dubbed(or myself), none of us was trying to change the topic or discussion happening at the time, since this whole discussion that was had sprung from concerns of wanting ethnic leads. The discussion stemmed from that. I suppose in reflecting upon it, Librarian took that as an attack on Rey..like...

...wanting to see Rey go dark side. For Star Wars, the OT and PT, the main character has gone dark side either slightly or fully. Luke, as mentioned, almost killed his father before proclaiming he was a Jedi to the Emperor, and Anakin...that was a disaster. To see Rey go through the same trials and tribulations isn't because she's a woman, but because it would be interesting to see, seeing as how TFA seemed to hearken to the OT in terms of not being as bad as PT.

As for Ren becoming good, there are hints of that seeing how insecure he is and how he keeps yearning his hate of the light inside to the Vader mask. As for Rey becoming Dark..well, I put my thoughts on that above.

But yeah, it stemmed from the discussion Dubbed was having, I came in because I disliked how Librarian was dismissive of what he was trying to say.

sphagnum said:
Rey's theme is a standout.
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Is that the one that plays when we're introduced to her? It's definitely the most memorable to me, because there's very little sound going on throughout that scene >_>;
 
T

The Librarian

Banned
Boke1879 said:
I think I've only seen one poster actually want Ren to become good. Most want to see Rey fall to the darkside simply because it would be interesting to explore. t
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Putting everything else aside, I still don't understand why, exactly, Rey falling to the dark side would be interesting.

Thankfully she won't ;)
 
B

Boke1879

Member
The Librarian said:
Putting everything else aside, I still don't understand why, exactly, Rey falling to the dark side would be interesting.

Thankfully she won't ;)
Click to expand...

That's all people are saying. It would be interesting. :)

That said. Ren is not coming to the light. We saw him literally kill his father to take the giant step to the darkside. He'll most likely kill Snoke and usurp the Supreme Leader title as well.

Kylo will die being fully immersed in the darkside. No redemption for him.
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
Boke1879 said:
That's all people are saying. It would be interesting. :)

That said. Ren is not coming to the light. We saw him literally kill his father to take the giant step to the darkside. He'll most likely kill Snoke and usurp the Supreme Leader title as well.

Kylo will die being fully immersed in the darkside. No redemption for him.
Click to expand...

Anakin killed a bunch of children, and he was able to redeem himself(retroactively...kinda..) and becoming a Light Side Force Ghost.

Canonically, only jedi can use that skill >_>; THEREFORE REN HAS SOME HOPE.
 
//ARCANUM

//ARCANUM

Member
My fiancé and I just saw THE BIG SHORT. It was so incredibly depressing that we decided the only way to feel good again was to get tix for Star Wars immediately. So we're seeing it in an hour from now. Will be our 6th time.
 
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