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[Veelk]

do you actually believe this though or are you just arguing that it could be justified?

Both, really, but technically the latter. I think both interpretations are valid and if you want to think it's a thumbs up, that's fine with me. I just choose to interpret it as a middle finger because that's funnier to me. I'm not arguing that anyone else has to think it's a middle finger, just I want to, and there's no reason anyone should be trying to dissuade me from that.

The force explains everything. Also, we have clear precedent for the emperor appearing as a hologram. Where is your proof that this was not the case? Nobody is observed touching either the emperor or Chewie at a time when either could not have been a hologram or have force teleported and then holo-replaced. That's my interpretation, all textually based. The power to destroy a planet, is, after all, insignificant compared to the force.

Considering chewy doesn't act like a hologram (transparent light flickering), it's still doubtful. Besides, we'd see the emperor making the transition. But let's be clear here: I'm not saying you can't believe this interpretation. Just that under scrutiny, the evidence doesn't really hold up. Thats the relevant thing to the discussion here. You aren't going to win this if you can't say how bb 8 giving the middle finger doesn't hold up.

 

[Liquidsnake]

Love may be too strong of a word but something of that nature is there that contributed to his jobberness.

Well like imagine you see someone doing something you think your good at, but they are so raw, and in many ways better than you, maybe more talented. Then make them someone you are attracted to.

Boooooom game over. The heart wants what it wants.

 

[elrechazado]

Why would he be?

She's a babe

 

[BreezyLimbo]

The BB-8 twists it's arm to bring the lighter facing up, clearly imitating the rotation of your wrist to make a thumbs-up.

Discussion over.

I'm rotating my wrist to flip the bird right now!

#BB8FlipsTheHate

 

[prag16]

I'm not arguing that anyone else has to think it's a middle finger, just I want to, and there's no reason anyone should be trying to dissuade me from that.

This is a very aggressive use of the death of the author concept, you're walking the line between that and total nonsense, and slipping more towards the latter.

It's an absurd interpretation.

 

[Veelk]

This is a very aggressive use of the death of the author concept, you're walking the line between that and total nonsense, and slipping more towards the latter.

It's an absurd interpretation.

I'm a very aggressive supporter of death of the author. It's inherently nonsensical to take the intention of the author over your own for no other reason that they're the author.

As for it being absurd, you keep saying that, but not how so.

 

[opoth]

Eh, I feel like this is taking for granted the twists, turns, and settings that make the movie special because it's so ingrained in our pop culture.

That's exactly right, the OT is viewed as unimpeachable by its original audience because all of our impressions of it were formed long before we had the internet and everyone was either a junior movie critic, or liked to quote a junior movie critic on their FB timeline. It sucks that some people can't enjoy anything anymore.

 

[phanphare]

I'm a very aggressive supporter of death of the author. It's inherently nonsensical to take the intention of the author over your own for no other reason that they're the author.

As for it being absurd, you keep saying that, but not how so.

well for one you're arguing that a droid flipped someone off in a star wars movie

a droid that is positioned to be a big hit with the kids

in a movie that is also intending to be a big hit with the kids


never mind that the movie makes it very clear that it's a thumbs up, as shown on the previous page

 

[OraleeWey]

well for one you're arguing that a droid flipped someone off in a star wars movie

a droid that is positioned to be a big hit with the kids

in a movie that is also intending to be a big hit with the kids


never mind that the movie makes it very clear that it's a thumbs up, as shown on the previous page

Spongebob is also aimed at kids

 

[Fencedude]

No, death of the author means what the author meant is irrelevant to what the content of the work is. If they say they meant to make it a thumbs up, I have no reason to disbelieve them. I just also don't have any reason to give that interpretation weight. That I see a middle finger outweighs whatever they say. So nyeh.

Thats not how Death of the Author works

 

[bigwinnerx]

"‘Star Wars’: BB-8’s Thumbs Up Moment Almost Didn’t Happen"

http://www.mtv.com/news/2727582/bb-8-thumbs-up-star-wars/

“One of the difficult things with animating something like that is you have to be very careful that it doesn’t look like he’s giving you some other sort of gesture! We moved all the pieces around to make sure it was very clearly a thumbs up over any other kind of ’salute.'”

 

[prag16]

I'm a very aggressive supporter of death of the author. It's inherently nonsensical to take the intention of the author over your own for no other reason that they're the author.

As for it being absurd, you keep saying that, but not how so.

It's all been said and you've dismissed it all. There's zero evidence for Star Wars containing as a concept obscene gestures of this nature. There's no evidence that BB8 has that in his nature (R2D2 maybe a little more likely).

Your case is paper thin. Maybe thicker than the emperor==chewie guy, but that doesn't say much. Besides, he just needs to specify that Palatine did a sith essence transfer AFTER he got tossed down the shaft, and your existing criticisms of the theory evaporate!

Thats not how Death of the Author works

Like I said, it at minimum a very aggressive interpretation of it.

 

[heliosRAzi]

All of this moaning about a different interpretation that doesn't really change the movie at all. Who cares if it's a thumbs up or the finger? Well, obviously, all of you care? But does it really matter?

 

[Veelk]

well for one you're arguing that a droid flipped someone off in a star wars movie

a droid that is positioned to be a big hit with the kids

in a movie that is also intending to be a big hit with the kids

It's called "getting crap past the radar"

never mind that the movie makes it very clear that it's a thumbs up, as shown on the previous page

It makes it clear it can very well be a thumbs up. Maybe even that it's likely to be. But There are room for other interpretations, and that's all that's needed.

 

[Liquidsnake]

"‘Star Wars’: BB-8’s Thumbs Up Moment Almost Didn’t Happen"

http://www.mtv.com/news/2727582/bb-8-thumbs-up-star-wars/

“One of the difficult things with animating something like that is you have to be very careful that it doesn’t look like he’s giving you some other sort of gesture! We moved all the pieces around to make sure it was very clearly a thumbs up over any other kind of ’salute.'”

 

[Mariolee]

I actually laughed at that scene because at first I thought it was a middle finger and that BB8 was stating this was an "uneasy" alliance. I definitely see that it's most likely a thumbs up, especially backed up by the novelization and context of the scene. However I'm not going to rag on people who think it's a middle finger.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I actually laughed at that scene because at first I thought it was a middle finger and that BB8 was stating this was an "uneasy" alliance. I definitely see that it's most likely a thumbs up, especially backed up by the novelization and context of the scene. However I'm not going to rag on people who think it's a middle finger.

No, you need to start ragging on them. It's the only way!

 

[Veelk]

Thats not how Death of the Author works

Do tell.

It's all been said and you've dismissed it all. There's zero evidence for Star Wars containing as a concept obscene gestures of this nature. There's no evidence that BB8 has that in his nature (R2D2 maybe a little more likely).

I meant from you, since you seem intent in stating how absurd it is. Honestly, if your going to argue that the middle finger gesture doesn't exist just because it hasn't been shown, why do you argue that the thumbs up has the American meaning? Because in Iran, the thumbs up means, ironically, the middle.finger here.

 

[Snake]

A few pages back I had begun to write about why I think it's understandable that a number of people thought it was a middle finger rather than a thumbs-up at first, based on the fast-paced nature of the scene. Understandable in a "just got back from the theater and haven't read anything about the movie yet" sort of way.

Then I finished reading the thread, and now I can only shake my head.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Um. It's a thumb's up. There's no possible interpretation in which BB-8 flipping off Finn makes any sense in the context in which it occurs. It's even framed in the same shot as Finn's thumb for association. Disney is running that exchange in TV ads right now.

The people that did the effects work call it a thumbs up.

“I think the reaction that BB-8 has to Finn would have been a practical effect that we shot on the Milennium Falcon, but the reaction to the thumbs up is something that definitely came later in the day,” Scanlan said.

“That thumbs up moment is exactly that,” confirmed Guyett. “I think it’s a real BB-8 and then we inserted a CG panel and its arm that came out. So all of his tools, if you like, when he fires his wires and he does that stuff, that’s sort of digital CG.”

 

[Jables Swan]

I'll be honest, I thought that was BB-8's penis.

 

[The Librarian]

y'all crazy

 

[The Outsider]

This fucking page. Why do I even come in this thread anymore?

 

[BreezyLimbo]

This fucking page. Why do I even come in this thread anymore?

For the BB-8/Finn Slash fiction.

 

[The Librarian]

This fucking page. Why do I even come in this thread anymore?

I can bring up another way Star Wars has badly mistreated women if you want!!!!!

 

[heliosRAzi]

BB-8 is a Mary Sue

 

[MMarston]

All of this moaning about a different interpretation that doesn't really change the movie at all. Who cares if it's a thumbs up or the finger? Well, obviously, all of you care? But does it really matter?

Hey man, this could be the Han Shot First of the new generation

 

[heliosRAzi]

Hey man, this could be the Han Shot First of the new generation

But did Han flick Greedo off by doing it?

 

[BreezyLimbo]

But did Han flick Greedo off by doing it?

Maybe with his penis. We don't know what went on under that table!

 

[heliosRAzi]

Maybe with his penis. We don't know what went on under that table!

Hmm, Han definitely shot first. The underside of that table must be rancid.

 

[bigwinnerx]

Now I just figure BB-8 is Iranian.

 

[BTM]

Only with Star Wars will we get 3 spoiler threads to dissect every frame of the movie including whether a freaking droid is giving the thumbs up or middle finger. Amazing

 

[KingSnake]

I don't think that's fair to Luke. Even when he's hanging upside down in the ice cave on Hoth, moments away from being mauled to death, he still struggles to move the saber because he's untrained. And that's the guy who is supposed to have the second greatest force potential of any force sensitive in history.

The way Rey is seen picking up the force at the rate she does is something we haven't ever seen in Star Wars movies. The closest we've gotten is Anakin being able to pass the simple Jedi tests before the council but that's not remotely comparable to overpowering a trained force user on two different occasions (mind reading, saber pull) or pulling off force persuasion on the second attempt.

Not because he's untrained, but because he doesn't believe. Yoda himself tells him that. Not to try, but to do it or not do it. That's why he fails, because he tries.That's the whole secret.

Even after he stands upside down in one hand with Yoda on top of him and he moved stones from one side to the other, the next scene he goes "No, I can't do it". He was shown how by both Obi Wan and Yoda and he has used the Forced several times already and he still goes spoiled brat on it. "I can't, boo hoo."

He's capable of focusing on the Force and use it properly without any issue when he's in danger or when he's in a matter of life and death (like destroying the Death Star in ANH or the duel with Darth Vader in ESB or when he calls Leia after). Like Rey.

 

[brandonh83]

Only with Star Wars will we get 3 spoiler threads to dissect every frame of the movie including whether a freaking droid is giving the thumbs up or middle finger. Amazing

It shouldn't even be a discussion. But I agree, it's amazing. Or something.

 

[The Librarian]

Rey > Luke

 

[KingSnake]

Rey > Luke

No, that's wrong too. Different characters with different background tormented by different things.

 

[guek]

Not because he's untrained, but because he doesn't believe. Yoda himself tells him that. Not to try, but to do it or not do it. That's the whole secret.

Even after he stands upside down in one hand with Yoda on top of him and he moved stones from one side to the other, the next scene he goes "No, I can't do it". He was shown how by both Obi Wan and Yoda and he has used the Forced several times already and he still goes spoiled brat on it. "I can't, boo hoo."

He's capable of focusing on the Force and use it properly without any issue when he's in danger or when he's in a matter of life and death (like destroying the Death Star in ANH or the duel with Darth Vader in ESB or when he calls Leia after). Like Rey.

Nah, I don't buy that. It's just not how the force has ever been depicted. It's not an automatic win button where you can do anything just by believing in it. It's not an on/off switch. Luke can't lift the x-wing because he doubts himself and is full of fear but the inverse isn't true for Rey. I find it hard to believe that she didn't have doubts or fear while using the force. Rey isn't a narcissist. She has no idea what she's doing when she uses the force and basically lucks her way through it. I don't think there's anything to suggest Luke believes in the force any less than Rey in ESB or that Rey believes in herself to such a degree that she gains instant mastery. Luke was able to use the force in the ESB duel with Vader because he was in danger, he was able to use it because he had been trained. He then continued to use it to contact Leia even after he loses. It seems like you want to be harsh on Luke just so you can praise Rey.

The point of training has never been just saber mastery. It's always been about meditation and knowledge. Otherwise, what's the point of her seeking Luke for training? Why not just keep winging it and get stronger and stronger by believing in herself? But again, the way she is able to use the force isn't something seen in any of the prior movies.

 

[dEvAnGeL]

movie was good but kinda ridiculous on how rey "powers" were handled, she goes from no training to defeating the bad guy that had previous training in an incredibly short amount of time, or im i missing something?

 

[KingSnake]

Nah, I don't buy that. It's just not how the force has ever been depicted. It's not an automatic win button where you can do anything just by believing in it. It's not an on/off switch. Luke can't lift the x-wing because he doubts himself and is full of fear but the inverse isn't true for Rey. I find it hard to believe that she didn't have doubts or fear while using the force. Rey isn't a narcissist. She has no idea what she's doing when she uses the force and basically lucks her way through it. I don't think there's anything to suggest Luke believes in the force any less than Rey in ESB or that Rey believes in herself to such a degree that she gains instant mastery. Luke wasn't able to use the force in the ESB duel with Vader because he was in danger, he was able to use it because he had been trained. He then continued to use it even after he loses by contacting Leia. It seems like you want to be harsh on Luke just so you can praise Rey.

The point of training has never been just saber mastery. It's always been about meditation and knowledge. Otherwise, what's the point of her seeking Luke for training? Why not just keep winging it and get stronger and stronger by believing in herself? But again, the way she is able to use the force isn't something seen in any of the prior movies.

Go and watch again the whole scene with Yoda, Obi Wan and Luke in ESB.

Yes, it's also about meditation, but meditation to find the calm and patience. To avoid being drawn to the dark side. Which is why also Rey needs training.

That's what the training is about, control. Not power.

 

[User 73706]

Great for the novel and the script. I saw the movie and that's the only material relevant to the conversation.

You aren't really explaining (using the actual movie content) why this interpretation is impossible.

"guys here's my opinion"

"no actually it's my fact"

"go ahead, try and disprove it, i dare you"

"oh, thought you could do that so easily? using evidence? well good thing i don't have to listen to you"

"no it doesn't work that way your example is just a strawman quit trying to disprove it"

"also come on now it's just an opinion not a fact"

"even though it's a fact that my opinion cannot be disproven"

It's like an ouroboros of shitheadedness.

 

[guek]

Go and watch again the whole scene with Yoda, Obi Wan and Luke in ESB.

Yes, it's also about meditation, but meditation to find the calm and patience. To avoid being drawn to the dark side. Which is why also Rey needs training.

That's what the training is about, control. Not power.

Yes, I agree, and I'm saying Rey shows a surprising amount of control over something she knows next to nothing about.

 

[Fencedude]

It's like an ouroboros of shitheadedness.

People using "death of the author" to be jackasses in discussions is pretty high on my list of Media Discussion Pet Peeves

 

[Veelk]

It's like an ouroboros of shitheadedness.

The discussion seems to have ended, but this is absolutely nothing like what any of what I was saying. My argument rested on one premise: It is the movie content itself that matters, and nothing else. What the writers, novelists, even director say they meant have no bearing on the actual scenes witnessed in the movie. If there isn't anything that disallows for a particular interpretation within the movie itself, there's no reason to say it's invalid.

That's my last word on it. I don't mind people walking away disagreeing with me, but I do mind it when they walk away with an inaccurate caricature of what my argument was.

People using "death of the author" to be jackasses in discussions is pretty high on my list of Media Discussion Pet Peeves

Being a jackass? The fuck did I do that was offense? All I did was insist that an interpretation is valid. In what was it that being rude to anyone? And you never did explain how I was misusing DotA. Feel free to PM me on this since the discussion seems to have passed, but wtf man

 

[Fencedude]

Being a jackass? The fuck did I do that was offense? All I did was insist that an interpretation is valid. Where did I insult anyone at all? And you never did explain how I was misusing DotA. Feel free to PM me on this since the discussion seems to have passed, but wtf man

Spending two pages fallaciously arguing that the Obvious Thumbs Up which is stated to be a thumbs up in numerous official sources and is just clearly so based on the events in the movie is actually a middle finger is somewhere between being a purposefully obnoxious and straight up trolling.

Death of the Author is useful for thematic elements, things that are somewhat subtextual but can have different interpretations that the author clearly never thought of consciously, but to use it in this sort of situation is what gives a lot of media crit a bad name.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Only with Star Wars will we get 3 spoiler threads to dissect every frame of the movie including whether a freaking droid is giving the thumbs up or middle finger. Amazing

Amazing is one word for it.

 

[Veelk]

Spending two pages fallaciously arguing that the Obvious Thumbs Up which is stated to be a thumbs up in numerous official sources and is just clearly so based on the events in the movie is actually a middle finger is somewhere between being a purposefully obnoxious and straight up trolling.

Again, not that the discussion should be started again, but this is basically saying "we're clearly right, why can't you just accept it" without actually engaging the argument being made. Again, this is a PM discussion if anything.

Death of the Author is useful for thematic elements, things that are somewhat subtextual but can have different interpretations that the author clearly never thought of consciously, but to use it in this sort of situation is what gives a lot of media crit a bad name.

It's been a while, but that's not how I remember the Barthes' argument going. Pretty sure the fundamental premise was that the political/social/etc idenity (and therefore intentions) of the author should not be viewed as indicative of the valid interpretation of the work and that it is impossible to truly determine what author's intent. It wasn't "oh, we can squeeze some interpretation here if we try since he didn't mean it". It literally sought to remove the authority from the word 'author' redubbing the creator as the 'sculptor', who does not explain the work on any level.

But even assuming that is what the original essay said what you say it said, why is using a more extreme version of that an invalid use of it? I have fully disregarded the authorial intentions of any work I've read for years (which, to be clear, is not to say I ignored them, but merely didn't give them inherent value), because that has been the most effective way of distilling what the work is actually made up of because I am actually evaluating the work itself, not the talk about the work, which seems like it'd be inherently more meaningful. Supposing it's not DotA originally was, why is this evolution not a valid use of it merely because it's stricter?

But yeah, we're dangerously into OT territory, so this is my last post unless you want to PM

 

[Trigonometrize.]

Did you miss the part that I still enjoyed it for the hundredth time and I still think it's the best?

Uh, no? How would it get ripped apart if it's so good? Real people don't judge movies based on how long its flaw list is.

 

[Figboy79]

I can bring up another way Star Wars has badly mistreated women if you want!!!!!

I'll gladly discuss this over the fricking lightergate we're experiencing now.

The fact that Rey being better than Luke is a topic is fantastic. My biggest fear going into this movie last December was that I wouldn't like the new cast. After leaving the theater, I had the hugest grin on my face, because I absolutely love them. Rey, Finn, Kylo, Poe, they are fantastic characters with amazing potential. They can legit take over the series from the old cast. They have already.

Luke is Luke. He's an iconic character. Rey has the potential to be as iconic, and in her own unique way than just "Luke with a vagina."

She is a wonderful character. And to add to the other conversation about Rey being adept in the Force in ways that Luke didn't demonstrate; Luke didn't believe, Rey did. That's all you need to explain it. When Luke trusted in the Force, shit happened. When he doubted himself and his abilities, he dropped a muppet on its head, and R2 too.

Rey's whole deal is that she's incredibly confident from the get go. Rey isn't a woman who doesn't know herself. She doesn't second guess her skills ("I can handle myself.") Luke never expressed that type of bravado outside of being confident in his piloting skills. Rey knows she can fight. She knows she can fly, and once she was told that the Force was real, she never doubted her ability to access it. Maybe she wasn sure if it would respond, but when her attempt to mind control the trooper failed that first time, she didn't pull a Luke and say, "I can't do it," she refocused, and tried again, and it worked. She attempted that mind control trick three times, with the third time actually working.

Luke probably would have been able to do that shit too if he wasn't such a Debbie Downer about himself.

 

[Ovid]

Rey > Luke

Nope.

In "The Force Awakens", Rey's highlight is that she fights and sort of defeats Kylo Ren.

In "A New Hope", Luke's highlight is that he blows up the Death Star.

As of Episode 7: Rey < Luke

 

[Etrian Oddity]

.