Ever read the Sword of Truth?
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
This.
The fact that the term seems more proliferated with this release makes me think it's more due to a "he said she said" spread of the issue too(COUGHMaxLandisCOUGH), and it's less likely to be an opinion that these people formed themselves.
EdibleExplosives
Member
I barely ever heard of Mary Sue, Deus Ex Machina, or general 'tropes' until I joined this forum, now I see them everywhere.
TheBlackMarvel
Member
Archaeopteryx
Member
Haha you've obviously never read The Kingkiller Chronicles or discussions about the protagonist. People seem to see him as the Mary Sues of Mary Sues, although I disagree.
I hate the term, personally. I'm glad discussion about it was taken from this thread and put into it's own.
On topic, I've seen the movie three times now and while I don't think I'll get a chance to see it in theatres again it's one of the best movie-going experiences I've ever had. It brought back everything I love about Star Wars. The humour, and sense of wonder. It remystified the Force and brought back the sense of adventure that was missing from the Prequels.
I'd rank it below Empire, but probably tied with A New Hope as my second favourite. The new cast was just fantastic, I think Daisey Ridley is my favourite. Oscar Isaac, John Boyega and Adam Driver were all fantastic as well though. Kylo Ren's struggle between the Light and the Dark is portrayed in such a way that it's a shame we never got to see it with Anakin in the prequels. Much more believable here, it really felt like he was struggling with his inner demons.
I'm sure everything I've posted has been discussed to death, but I thought I'd give my input.
Poe is the best Deus Ex Machina.
brickarts295
Member
Speaking of Kenobi vs Skywalker
This kinda but not really gives strength to the theory that Rey might be a Kenobi. How? its anyone's guest.
The thing that gave it away for me, was the clothing.
I mean I know the movies are meant to be about the Skywalker family, and they still are thanks to Grandson of the year. But every star wars movie also had a Kenobi, although I'm not sure if Ghost Kenobi counts, then again Ghost Anakin was meant to appear in this.
Similar? Kinda. Enough to prove the theory? NOPE
Never heard of this.
Yeah, I am sorry for everyone who cant enjoy movies anymore and only sees tropes everywhere.
Trigonometrize.
Member
I never heard them much before I got into My Little Pony, Mary Sue especially. Go figure.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Let me tell you about Sword of Truth.
Sword of Truth is about a main character who does everything. And he does everything. He speaks multiple languages, he knows all the powers, he's the main character. I remember an instance where he gets poisoned, and is extremely weak, and he leads some poor slave girl to make the antidote, and it is written into the book every damn detail. From all the turns the girl has to make in the potion, to the exact timing, to how many ingredients, despite the main character being extremely weakened that he can't see, he's able to tell the girl when to stop and continue making the antidote. There is an instance where the girl is about to do something incorrectly, and in the main characters weakened state where he is practically knocked out stops her just in time, in probably the most riveting paragraph ever written about an antidote being made. And it is all painstakingly written.
And then there's the fact that every female character just wants to get into the main characters pants. Because he's the most powerful whatever. And it is painstakingly written. He is the Maryiest of Sues, and it is hilarious.
I'm sure I got a few details wrong
Same. Made even more frustrating once the absurdity of the Rey argument was brought forward (but that's a topic for the other thread).
I wonder what Hayden Christensen thinks of Kylo Ren. And not, not in a "haw haw, let's trash Christensen!" way, but more of a, "Adam Driver's Kylo Ren feels a lot like what George Lucas wanted Anakin Skywalker to be in the prequels, but didn't execute it well" kind of way.
The moment Ben took the mask off, and Driver is giving his performance with his face, and not just body language, he just reminded me so much of what Anakin Skywalker should have been in the prequels. I imagine Christensen, given some better directing and script, would have put in a similar performance. Ben really is his grandfather's grandson, and I almost think that that is exactly what Abrams and Kasdan were going for. There are a few winks and nods to the prequel era, and I think the most overt is Ben himself. Named after Kenobi, temperament of Anakin.
I'm really looking forward to Kylo's entrance in Episode 8. I think he's going to be a very, very different character than he was at the end of The Force Awakens. I imagine there will be the usual time jump that all Star Wars sequels undergo, so I suspect he's been training and leveling up. I can't wait for us to get a teaser trailer, probably towards the end of the year, since it's releasing in May 2017.
EDIT: Yeah, I've been familiar with the terms "Mary Sue" and "Deus Ex Machina" for ages now. I'm not surprised to see the term cropping up in relation to Rey, unfortunately. It's absurd, and is probably going to be the new buzzword when "critiquing" capable, smart female characters in fiction going forward now. Show a hint of talent/skill? "Well, OBVIOUSLY, she's a Mary Sue!" ugh.
The moment Ben took the mask off, and Driver is giving his performance with his face, and not just body language, he just reminded me so much of what Anakin Skywalker should have been in the prequels. I imagine Christensen, given some better directing and script, would have put in a similar performance. Ben really is his grandfather's grandson, and I almost think that that is exactly what Abrams and Kasdan were going for. There are a few winks and nods to the prequel era, and I think the most overt is Ben himself. Named after Kenobi, temperament of Anakin.
I'm really looking forward to Kylo's entrance in Episode 8. I think he's going to be a very, very different character than he was at the end of The Force Awakens. I imagine there will be the usual time jump that all Star Wars sequels undergo, so I suspect he's been training and leveling up. I can't wait for us to get a teaser trailer, probably towards the end of the year, since it's releasing in May 2017.
EDIT: Yeah, I've been familiar with the terms "Mary Sue" and "Deus Ex Machina" for ages now. I'm not surprised to see the term cropping up in relation to Rey, unfortunately. It's absurd, and is probably going to be the new buzzword when "critiquing" capable, smart female characters in fiction going forward now. Show a hint of talent/skill? "Well, OBVIOUSLY, she's a Mary Sue!" ugh.
There was that Kasdan quote from several pages ago, where he talked about his own ideas for Obi-wan/Anakin in Episode 1, that Lucas didn't like. And the way their friendship came about in Kasdan's pitch very much reads similar to how Finn/Poe and Finn/Rey build their friendships in TFA, so I wouldn't be surprised if Kylo is also built from ideas Kasdan had about Anakin that never came to be.
Saw this for my second time last night, and not sure if I'm in the minority here but I absolutely loved Rey's vision again. It's so typical Abrams with so many tantalizing details and information but not nearly enough to put anything concrete together.
I cannot wait to find out more about the past bits it teases. Anyone think VIII (and maybe IX as well) will feature a couple flashback scenes (esp. considering Ford is supposedly set to be a part of both films still)?
I cannot wait to find out more about the past bits it teases. Anyone think VIII (and maybe IX as well) will feature a couple flashback scenes (esp. considering Ford is supposedly set to be a part of both films still)?
First I've heard about Ford being in the other films
but yeah I think we are for sure going to get some details on Rey's mindwipe
Yeah, I read that Kasdan interview. Some really awesome stuff in there that I'm sad didn't make it. His version sounds exactly like we all wanted the Obi/Anakin friendship-relationship to develop.
I'm pretty sure those ideas for Anakin trickled down into other characters. As an artist/writer myself, there are plenty of times where concepts/ideas for characters/arcs from older projects end up in the new stuff I've written/drawn, with whatever necessary tweaks or revisions I've come up with. It's fun to revisit those older stories/characters, and besides the embarrassment factor of, "Man, I can't believe I thought that was awesome back then," sometimes you can glean some compelling stuff in there that makes you say, "Hey, I can reuse this with a little more polish..."
I think this is ratcheting the response too far in the other direction. Being a Mary Sue isn't inherently a bad thing in fiction. Most main characters share traits reminiscent of the Mary Sue trope and not to those characters' detriment. Waving away all of the things that make Rey a good character because she might fulfill some of the Mary Sue trope is absurd, but so is discarding any and all criticism on the pretense that the trope can't be used poorly.
My response to Rey was...she could have been done better. That's blasphemy for some in this very thread but that was my honest immediate reaction. I found her journey underwhelming. Part of that is because of Abrams breakneck pace in TFA but part is definitely because portions of her journey feel unearned. I think that's what people who levy the Mary Sue critique at her are trying to say even if they can't quite articulate it properly. The issue with citing the trope though is it's not enough to say she's a Mary Sue. Like I said, those types of characters - Neo, Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker, Hermione Granger, Katniss Everdeen, Buffy - have varying degrees of effectiveness within the trope itself. Tropes aren't inherently bad, it's all about how they're used.
I can see him used in flashbacks to raising Ben, if at all.
User 73706
Banned
Or just the image of him haunting Kylo (or Rey and Finn even).
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Going to be the hologram AI for the Falcon like Crowe in Man of Steel.
greatestjediever
Member
I never paid particular close attention to it, but I do remember:
a) Han taking off his snow jacket and throwing it down in the elevator
b) Chewie picking it back up before they leave with Rey and giving it back to Han
c) Rey has Finn's jacket when they enter the oscillator and pull out the power converter to open up the doors for Han and Chewie, and when they go up the ladder to the top floor
d) During the Kylo and Han scene, Finn has the jacket again (I think?) which he keeps through the rest of the movie
Well, yeah, all that's true, but I was mostly referring to how he slaughtered a bunch of pacifists and the narrative framed it as a good and decent thing to do.
Showing these gifts together just highlights how much better the direction in TFA was compared to the prequel films.Speaking of Kenobi vs Skywalker
I'm pretty sure I saw somewhere that the forest was CGI, but it still follows the principle of "less is more" and contributed to a more atmospheric, compelling setting.
The Obi-Wan/Vader duel was always going to be in a volcanic environment ever since the 80s. That wasn't going to change.
Reading the thread and after seeing Star Wars yesterday I lean towards the Mary Sue camp, less because of her competence (because really, everyone in Star Wars is competent to an occasionally unrealistic degree) but more because everyone instantly knows she's a big deal (Han immediately warms up to her, Adam Driver goes apeshit as soon as he hears "a girl") and because she uses the force like a pro faster than anyone we've ever seen.
On the plus side, she's not whiny like Luke when we first meet her, though, which makes her far more enjoyable. So you win some, lose some.
I kind of feel like I'm in the Star Trek 09 camp again with this film. The new characters are fine, with the exception of Kylo Ren for me, I just wish the stuff around them was less copy-paste and more compelling. Also wish Finn got a little more character-building.
Yeah I think that's where the main fault lies with most of the film, whether it's cheating us on character time or the sudden apparent hand of the author (didn't see it in this thread, but is there any reasonable answer to why R2 suddenly decided to pop up and deliver the crucial remainder of the Plot at the end besides "the writers ordained it to be?")
And yeah, sometimes I feel like people arguing about Mary Sues are going on about likable, competent characters in general... and I think that's just something I can't get behind. I'm the guy who doesn't watch Breaking Bad because I find everyone detestable, though, so I'm probably on the other extreme from them.
On the plus side, she's not whiny like Luke when we first meet her, though, which makes her far more enjoyable. So you win some, lose some.
I kind of feel like I'm in the Star Trek 09 camp again with this film. The new characters are fine, with the exception of Kylo Ren for me, I just wish the stuff around them was less copy-paste and more compelling. Also wish Finn got a little more character-building.
Yeah I think that's where the main fault lies with most of the film, whether it's cheating us on character time or the sudden apparent hand of the author (didn't see it in this thread, but is there any reasonable answer to why R2 suddenly decided to pop up and deliver the crucial remainder of the Plot at the end besides "the writers ordained it to be?")
And yeah, sometimes I feel like people arguing about Mary Sues are going on about likable, competent characters in general... and I think that's just something I can't get behind. I'm the guy who doesn't watch Breaking Bad because I find everyone detestable, though, so I'm probably on the other extreme from them.
Trigonometrize.
Member
What do you mean?
The lava represents the fire in their hearts! The volcanic pressure that turns rock into magma is nothing compared to the thunderous yearning that transforms mortal men into mythology! These roaring flames cry out for the one thing that can end this struggle for the fate of the galaxy: the high ground!
That doesn't mean that fight still wouldn't have benefited from a less is more mindset.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/the-wizard-of-star-wars-20120504?page=8
George Lucas (August 25 said:
The Lamonster
Member
yeah I remember knowing about the volcano thing even when I was a little kid in the early 90s.
I did not imagine the lava surfing, however
I did not imagine the lava surfing, however
Trigonometrize.
Member
Obi-wan vs Anakin was probably more insane of a fight then when I had my Kim Possible toy fight General Grievous on my Rippin' Rocket Kinex set.
As a kid, I always imagined it was at the edge of a volcano, not literally inside and 2ft above bubbling magma
Sorcerer
Member
Kenobi talks to Luke about the duel in the Return of the Jedi novelization.
brandonh83
Banned
I loved the crazy. The dialogue however...
Great fight though. It lived up to my expectations. I wanted it to be long and over the top and got it. I also love the more sublime setting of the snowy forest at night in TFA.
Basically I hope Johnson and Trevorrow continue the great and interesting duel settings.
A Serious Man
Member
The forest was a set, with CG used for the planetary destruction elements.
freethought
Member
And obviously nothing about this scenario changed in the interim.
I guess we're just opposites in this regard lol. I actually don't mind the dialogue in that fight, aside from "Only a Sith deals in absolutes", it's the delivery of the lines that's off with some of them. The whole "you were my brother, Anakin" line is solid gold. The craziness of the fight just made me feel like Lucas has no idea what "epic" actually means.
I ended up liking Finn more than Rey and both of them more than Kylo.
speaking of Star Was 09, I was a bit shocked when I realized I liked it a smidge more than TFA
But was the fighting really that crazy? I've rewatched it a couple of times lately and tbh the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel really feels like two people that know everything about each other, that have been in countless battles together. These two are the best of the best, I mean I loved the Rey/Kylo fight but those two aren't on the same level yet, have not had a war to hone their skills. I know some will call it choreographed but it makes sense in the case of these two characters.
I love the first part of the Obi-Wan and Anakin duel. When the fight escalates to the tarzan swinging, fighting on falling apart structures, and then lava robot surfing while fighting, it just got too silly for me.
brandonh83
Banned
Yeah I meant a mix of the lines and acting like the POV line for example. I think the absolutes line is fine. The one you mentioned is great.
I thought the direction of the fight in terms of environments and acrobatics made sense. It was literally Anakin feeling invincible and leading Kenobi through a series of bullshit until he finally got his ass fucked up.
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