The mixing does seem really strange to me; sometimes the action is way too quiet. But honestly, watching it in IMAX, the soundtrack was booming and well mixed.
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
The mixing does seem really strange to me; sometimes the action is way too quiet. But honestly, watching it in IMAX, the soundtrack was booming and well mixed.
Lifejumper
Member
I wonder how the blu ray release will hold up.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
you let the hype get to you.
Like you said later, watching it again will allow you to watch it more clearly.
If I was about to die and some random guy saved me, and fulfilled my mission in my absence, that's a friend for life.
QuantumZebra
Member
1. Of all the bad news he just got - he doesn't force choke the dude until he hears "... there was a girl with them" - THAT kind of reaction wasn't warranted until that statement? Way too impactful to be coincidence.
2. Any strong force-user is going to be surprised when someone resists them - especially a girl who is clearly untrained in the Force.
3a. I think its safe to assume that *if* Kylo knew of Rey, and she was his cousin, he has likely been looking for her ever since the Temple slaughter. Just like he says to Rey at the end, he wants someone to train with him (to take on Snoke (just like all dark-side users try to usurp their masters)).
3b. So the mention of an unknown girl assisting in the escape of this droid with a map to Luke on it is something that to Kylo is likely to immediately make him go "WTF it better not be her"
I agree that (especially after repeat viewings) he knows who she is or at least has a very good idea. Lots of stuff was filmed intentionally to make us think this.
LegendofLex
Member
^ I think ultimately I just think most of the leaps you're making are unnecessary given the dynamics already at play in those scenes. You don't need Kylo to know Rey to be mad that a third player has entered the BB-8 pursuit equation. You don't need him to know her to want to train her (since dark side apprentices wanting to train their own secret apprentices is an established staple in the lore). etc. etc.
When he finally encounters her face-to-face, it's not clear she has any significance to him other than as a way to get to the map - all of their interactions start off as being about the map, and even his mind games are about making her feel helpless against his ability to pry into her mind (there's not even a dig at her real family when he remarks that Han would have been a disappointing father) - until she resists his mind probing and it becomes clear she's the source of the awakening he sensed earlier.
When he finally encounters her face-to-face, it's not clear she has any significance to him other than as a way to get to the map - all of their interactions start off as being about the map, and even his mind games are about making her feel helpless against his ability to pry into her mind (there's not even a dig at her real family when he remarks that Han would have been a disappointing father) - until she resists his mind probing and it becomes clear she's the source of the awakening he sensed earlier.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Yup he goes from capturing Poe, but the map in still on Jaku, then Poe escapes with the Stormtrooper he noticed on Jaku. Now Poe, the trooper, and the map are in Jaku. Finally the trooper and the droid have escaped after contact with a girl helping them.
Kylo was having a really shitty day, and now more people are helping to undermine him.
LegendofLex
Member
It probably doesn't help that Poe is entirely unaccounted for at that point. He might have expected Poe to have helped Finn escape; instead it's a completely unknown quantity. (And it turns out she causes more trouble for him than Poe ever did, too.)
I think it was filmed to lean more towards him knowing her, in my opinion, but also left open to interpretation like most other things introduced in the movie. I believe in the novelization Ren says something like "so, it is her" when she pulls the saber past him. But I'm not 100% on that. Will have to check.
LegendofLex
Member
Didn't the writers comment that this is about him recognizing her as the source of the "awakening" he and Snoke sensed earlier in the film, and ostensibly not about him recognizing her from his past?
I'd like a link; never heard that explanation. Seems like it's too specific for him to simply be referring to the awakening, but given the appropriate context, I could see it being explained like that. I could also see it (Ren knowing who Rey is) being cut from the film and saved for later but made it into the novelization.
Snoke/Ren never discussed anyone causing the awakening in the film, so if that's what the quote was referring to in the novel, seems pretty awkward.
LegendofLex
Member
Turns out it's from Pablo Hidalgo in the story group (not a writer), and he doesn't specifically dismiss the interpretation that Kylo knows her, but I think that's what he's referring to when he says he's "reading a lot made" of the line from the novelization. He's definitely telling us to refer back to the awakening line, though.
https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/680137218195734528
And, yeah, it was in the film but apparently was cut - he actually thinks it's still present, even though that's not true.
typical blockbuster seen in the last 10 years, unimaginative, unoriginal, has nothing to tell, nothing to bring to the lore, Rey is totally OP, Starkiller is lazy as hell, an unofficial reboot that has nice photography and a good apcing but some plot holes etc...
it's like nothing has changed for the last 30 years, Han Solo is still the same but older, the First Order is a weaker Empire, the rebels are still there even if they won the war, Phasma is a toy baited, Skywalker is missing too much etc...
i'll wait for episode 8, movie is overrated as hell.
it's like nothing has changed for the last 30 years, Han Solo is still the same but older, the First Order is a weaker Empire, the rebels are still there even if they won the war, Phasma is a toy baited, Skywalker is missing too much etc...
i'll wait for episode 8, movie is overrated as hell.
WadiumArcadium
Member
It would be a bit weird if Kylo did know Rey and he doesn't acknowledge it at all in his conversation with Snoke.
I still don't think he does but it's not entirely out of the question.
I still don't think he does but it's not entirely out of the question.
When does he say "it is you" in the movie? Seems to me like he's downplaying something that ended up cut from the movie, personally. EDIT: Just saw the end of your post. Seems like damage control for the next two episodes.
Seems to me the only thing he said along these lines in the film was "the girl I've heard so much about", which is TOTALLY different.
Either way, both of those lines suggest he knows who she is, in some significant way.
We may have only seen part of their conversation, edited in a way that only gives us specific information.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
I dont see what you guys are seeing. I dont think its filmed or shown that Ren knows her. He force chokes dude cause its the last straw of fuckups and a shitty day, not cause he knows her specifically. I never got this impression from multiple viewings that he knew her.
LegendofLex
Member
It probably came from the screenplay but was removed from the final cut, which if anything indicates that the line isn't hard evidence of anything since they intentionally left it out of the film. He's definitely wrong about it still being in the movie people saw in theaters.
"The girl I've heard so much about" is a reference to the intelligence he received on her from his lieutenant, since otherwise there's nothing for him to be referring to that he could have possibly "heard about" her. There's no evidence to point to it being a reference to anything else, least of all other lines revolving around the same initial reports of her involvement in BB-8's escape.
On the contrary, I think. They left a lot out of the film in general in which had a ton of significance, and I think the line was intentionally cut BECAUSE of its importance.
"it is you" from the novel seems like a pretty clear indication, which seems to have been cut from the movie. I think they're saving this info for a future episode.
QuantumZebra
Member
Its the little things - the force choke was a dead giveaway that he had an idea of who she might be, IMO. That is why it cuts right after he pulls the guy to him.
I found this snippet online, from the novel's analysis:
Too many coincidences.
Kylo wants to hide her identity from Snoke - that's clear as day. He wants her to join him so he can (imo) corrupt a Skywalker, something Vader couldn't accomplish (turning Luke) - and in his eyes, surpassing Vader.
Just found this other snippet:
He does say "The girl I've heard so much about...you, a scavenger." The emphasis he puts on the word "scavenger" is a little incredulous. He doesn't believe she's a scavenger, he can sense the Force in her, and it's very possible that he recognizes her in some way.
The truth is that the scenes were shot in a way that leaves it open to many interpretations, in case things change in future films. I think he began to suspect that she is someone he knows (maybe his younger cousin that he assumed was dead), but he isn't 100% sure. Maybe he's just reacting to the avalanche of shit that has been tumbling down onto him since the start of the movie. Either interpretation is valid.
I lean towards him knowing who she is by the end of the movie. Cinched when she force pulled the lightsaber to her hand at the end of the movie, but at that point, there wasn't much time to have a nice talk about their shared history. Especially since she started attacking him soon after igniting the saber. I'm very interested to see where they go with Rey in the next movie. So much story potential with this new universe.
The truth is that the scenes were shot in a way that leaves it open to many interpretations, in case things change in future films. I think he began to suspect that she is someone he knows (maybe his younger cousin that he assumed was dead), but he isn't 100% sure. Maybe he's just reacting to the avalanche of shit that has been tumbling down onto him since the start of the movie. Either interpretation is valid.
I lean towards him knowing who she is by the end of the movie. Cinched when she force pulled the lightsaber to her hand at the end of the movie, but at that point, there wasn't much time to have a nice talk about their shared history. Especially since she started attacking him soon after igniting the saber. I'm very interested to see where they go with Rey in the next movie. So much story potential with this new universe.
What indicates they have a history? Maybe by saying that it indicates he wasn't sure who had the "awakening" he felt earlier but suspected it was her. Analysis is always a tricky thing with ambiguous sentences.
QuantumZebra
Member
I... I just posted it, lol.
He says to her, when she grabs the lightsaber from him, "It is you."
I mean, I don't know what conversations you have, but that definitely indicates knowing who she is... that is literally what that sentence means. And the novel is canon, in case you doubted the truth of it.
He speaks to her in the novel
heliosRAzi
Banned
Not in the movie and the book doesn't count.
But, I think Kylo knows who Rey is. It's the only thing that makes sense after he trashes that room when that officer told him that Finn was accompanied by a girl. Unless it was some social commentary about the villain getting upset about a girl.
QuantumZebra
Member
Huh?
Maybe you're not familiar with how they're handling SW, but the book most definitely counts. It is Lucasfilm-approved canon. All the books are that came out after the acquisition.
This is nothing new - there were books approved of by Lucasfilm that tied into the PT and OT that were canon as well (but all that except the PT, OT, and Clone Wars got tossed post-acquistion).
heliosRAzi
Banned
That's cool, but the books aren't the movie. Kylo didn't say that line in the movie.
QuantumZebra
Member
Uh... what's your point?
If you're somehow insinuating the movie counts more or something, they cut a lot from the novel, and since most people won't read the novel too, they cut that so it wouldn't be overly in people's faces and saves the surprise (and it likely killed the flow of the scene).
heliosRAzi
Banned
My point is that this is a movie franchise, so whatever goes into the movie has more weight than anything else. They didn't greenlight a book, they greenlit a movie. The franchise flows from the movies. If stuff was cut, then it wasn't in the movie.
Can't it just mean he recognizes her as force sensitive woman he captured earlier, and not someone from an earlier past?
prag16
Banned
So none of the canon novels "count" then?
The story group isn't just throwing shit at a wall. They're coordinating everything. They may retcon things from some of that supporting material at some point if they feel they have to, but we have nothing else to go on at this point. What REALLY doesn't count is speculation and conjecture.
I see no rational reason why so many want so so so badly for Rey be essentially a random. That's not how Star Wars rolls, historically.
WadiumArcadium
Member
The 'Just a scavenger?" line could be interpreted that way. It could also be that he's surprised some random nobody is as powerful as him, the grandson of the 'chosen one'.
QuantumZebra
Member
That's not how it works, lol.
Anything in the novels is 100% canon. This is known and stated by Disney. It's not like some rogue writer was throwing in their own fanfic.
QuantumZebra
Member
That makes no sense at all. The dude isn't a goldfish lmao... he's clearly stating he now believes who she is/he thought she was.
crisdecuba
Member
No, it's way more than a movie franchise. What determines whether something counts or doesn't count is whether it's considered canon, and the novels are considered cannon. Of course, you can play by your own rules if you'd like, but you are pretty much playing alone then.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Didn't say that. I said that the movies hold more weight. Kylo didn't say "It is you" in the movie.
Ultimately, this is about the movie. I don't see people saying that the novelization of the Force Awakens is the best episode. I don't see a thread dedicated to the book. People aren't arguing over words on a page. They are obsessed over words spoken and actions taken and the spectacle and the music and the lighting and the VFX. The next movie isn't going to reference a cut line or scene or something only shown in the novelization. It's going to be an extension of the first movie and take its cues from that. They have to look at what TFA did and go from there.
If it matters in the grand scheme of the franchise, then it would be best to have the allusions, references, and whatnot in the movie. Even still, I think Kylo knows something about Rey initially.
There are two basic propositions on the table:
(1). ["There has been an awakening. Have you felt it?"] --> ["It it you."]
(2). [Kylo's theoretical previous knowledge of Rey] --> ["It is you."]
Option 1 is currently the more likely choice, but option 2 is not at all impossible. The real answer is that we don't know, and we will have to wait until December 2017 to find out (or even 2019 if we're really unlucky!). In the meantime we can do our best by explaining our preferences in circumstances like this rather than substituting those preferences for the actual truth of the matter.
(1). ["There has been an awakening. Have you felt it?"] --> ["It it you."]
(2). [Kylo's theoretical previous knowledge of Rey] --> ["It is you."]
Option 1 is currently the more likely choice, but option 2 is not at all impossible. The real answer is that we don't know, and we will have to wait until December 2017 to find out (or even 2019 if we're really unlucky!). In the meantime we can do our best by explaining our preferences in circumstances like this rather than substituting those preferences for the actual truth of the matter.
I don't think the film indicates Kylo knows Rey, though I can see why many have that interpretation.
That said, I think the "What girl?!" line as he strangles that one unfortunate officer is explained more easily by the context of the scene, than him knowing Rey. His day was basically one thing going wrong after another, and Rey was the cherry on top.
-Ren is sent to get the map, by Snoke. He also wants it for personal family reasons (take out his uncle/mentor)
-He arrives too late to get it from the old man on Jakku
-He identifies Finn as being a potential source of trouble on Jakku, but doesn't do anything about it
-He leaves the search for the droid up to Hux's men, thinking it would be simple
-Finn escapes
-Enter the officer with the unfortunate news of BB-8's escape:
---Hux's men fail to find the droid
---Oh, and it stole a freighter
---And the stormtrooper that that escaped? Hux's trooper than Ren ignored? He helped.
---...also there's a girl with them now *force choke*
It was Ren basically saying, "Fuck, now what?" IMO
Also, when Ren recoils from Rey's pushback in the interregation scene, he mouths "....you" clearly. I think that's his recognition that she's the one from the "awakening", not that he knows her.
That said, I think the "What girl?!" line as he strangles that one unfortunate officer is explained more easily by the context of the scene, than him knowing Rey. His day was basically one thing going wrong after another, and Rey was the cherry on top.
-Ren is sent to get the map, by Snoke. He also wants it for personal family reasons (take out his uncle/mentor)
-He arrives too late to get it from the old man on Jakku
-He identifies Finn as being a potential source of trouble on Jakku, but doesn't do anything about it
-He leaves the search for the droid up to Hux's men, thinking it would be simple
-Finn escapes
-Enter the officer with the unfortunate news of BB-8's escape:
---Hux's men fail to find the droid
---Oh, and it stole a freighter
---And the stormtrooper that that escaped? Hux's trooper than Ren ignored? He helped.
---...also there's a girl with them now *force choke*
It was Ren basically saying, "Fuck, now what?" IMO
Also, when Ren recoils from Rey's pushback in the interregation scene, he mouths "....you" clearly. I think that's his recognition that she's the one from the "awakening", not that he knows her.
I like Kylo Ren because he is the only person in all of the movies, in my opinion, to convincingly convey a deep, traumatic wrestling with the light and dark sides of the Force. Much light has been made of his demeanor (even by Adam Driver himself on SNL), but I think it's fitting. The guy is young and tortured by supernatural forces. A person like that wouldn't be stable.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Sibersk Esto
Banned
Finally saw it. It was good, just a hair away from being great. It was a little too fast for my liking, and I would have liked it to be slower so we could breathe in this new star wars setting.
It's a beautiful movie. Han and Kylo's confrontation looked like a painting.
Complaints about Kylo are overblown, I thought he was a great character. Complaints about Rey were also overblown, but I could see where they were coming from.
The movie was a bit too focused on being the first part of a new series. At least New Hope was mostly self-contained.
The plan from now on seems to be to have Kylo and Rei progress at the same time, which is cool. I feel Snoke (I hope I spelled that right) was hurt the most by the quick pacing.
It's a beautiful movie. Han and Kylo's confrontation looked like a painting.
Complaints about Kylo are overblown, I thought he was a great character. Complaints about Rey were also overblown, but I could see where they were coming from.
The movie was a bit too focused on being the first part of a new series. At least New Hope was mostly self-contained.
The plan from now on seems to be to have Kylo and Rei progress at the same time, which is cool. I feel Snoke (I hope I spelled that right) was hurt the most by the quick pacing.
Novelization is canon except where it contradicts the movie, or any future movie. Movies supersede all.
Now, to Kylo knowing or not knowing Rey, I feel like people are discounting or ignoring the obvious subtext that runs all throughout Rey's story, which is people continually underestimating her because she's a girl, and the way the movie actively plays against the usual tropes that female characters follow in the genre. You see it immediately when Unkar sends his goons after her, and Finn runs to her aid only she takes care of things before Finn event takes five steps. You see it when Finn continually tries to grab her hand and lead her to safety, pinning her as a damsel in distress, when she's ultimately the one who leads him to safety and escape. You see it when Han is surprised at her mechanical know how. You see it when the First Order soldier is scared to even mention the girl to Kylo, and Kylo's reaction that of all the shit gone wrong today, now a fucking girl is helping the droid get to the Resistance!? You see it when they leave her locked up with a single guard. You see it when Han, Chewie and Finn are trying to find out where she is so they can bust her out, and she's already escaped on her own. And you see it when Kylo quickly knocks her out before dealing with the guy at the end, and after taking care of Finn assuming that he could simply claim Anakin's/Luke's lightsaber, because why wouldn't he be able to? It belongs to him. He's a dude and Darth Vader's grandson so of course it would pick him. But it picks the girl.
The movie is kind of transparently subverting outdated tropes from start to finish with Rey's character, in a big, giant statement to start the new generation of Star Wars, and this stuff has as much to do with Kylo's reactions and interactions with Rey than anything else.
Now, to Kylo knowing or not knowing Rey, I feel like people are discounting or ignoring the obvious subtext that runs all throughout Rey's story, which is people continually underestimating her because she's a girl, and the way the movie actively plays against the usual tropes that female characters follow in the genre. You see it immediately when Unkar sends his goons after her, and Finn runs to her aid only she takes care of things before Finn event takes five steps. You see it when Finn continually tries to grab her hand and lead her to safety, pinning her as a damsel in distress, when she's ultimately the one who leads him to safety and escape. You see it when Han is surprised at her mechanical know how. You see it when the First Order soldier is scared to even mention the girl to Kylo, and Kylo's reaction that of all the shit gone wrong today, now a fucking girl is helping the droid get to the Resistance!? You see it when they leave her locked up with a single guard. You see it when Han, Chewie and Finn are trying to find out where she is so they can bust her out, and she's already escaped on her own. And you see it when Kylo quickly knocks her out before dealing with the guy at the end, and after taking care of Finn assuming that he could simply claim Anakin's/Luke's lightsaber, because why wouldn't he be able to? It belongs to him. He's a dude and Darth Vader's grandson so of course it would pick him. But it picks the girl.
The movie is kind of transparently subverting outdated tropes from start to finish with Rey's character, in a big, giant statement to start the new generation of Star Wars, and this stuff has as much to do with Kylo's reactions and interactions with Rey than anything else.
QuantumZebra
Member
I mean I agree fully with Rey flying in the face of tropes, but we're just discussing her possible lineage at the moment.
Any explanation for her being not Luke's daughter just lacks any real weight behind it, short of her being Kenobis granddaughter. Kathleen Kennedy stated the mainline movies are a story of the Skywalkers.
I know JJ loves a good bait and switch, but that was used on Finn being a Jedi. I think this is being setup purposefully.
QuantumZebra
Member
I guess you're new to the SW expanded universe, but even pre Disney EU was pretty careful to not tread on the PT or OT outside of some more ridiculous examples.
This new Disney EU is a billion dollar machine, you really think they aren't combing over every bit of new output with a fine toothed comb? There's a reason its canon.
Yes, but people are putting a lot of weight in the way Kylo reacts to hearing about a girl, and his interaction with Rey, as if they are evidence he knows Rey. I'm saying his reactions can more easily be explained by the subtext I outlined, and not that Kylo already knows Rey, and that somehow being evidence of her lineage.
QuantumZebra
Member
I think you're misreading that part. He doesn't say "a girl?!?!" ... he says "What girl?!"
It fits perfectly with the insinuation she is his cousin, as he has likely has been searching for her since the Jedi Temple slaughter. He wants to turn her to surpass Vader, as Vader couldn't turn Luke.
Seems obvious, IMO.
It also seems obvious to me that he's just incredulous there's now a girl involved on top of all the other crap. I think right now, that is as reasonable an explanation as anything else.
heliosRAzi
Banned
So Finn was sliced on his chest, not his back? Finn was the one who pulled the grate over the hidey-hole on the MF instead of Rey? The Jedi and the Force aren't myths? And Poe and Rey are being set up to be together?
QuantumZebra
Member
But again if that was the intent he would've said "A girl?!"
LIke I said I agree with the other tropes, but that part is clearly due to the fact that Kylo has been on a hunt for her for a while, and is hoping it is his long lost cousin.
That is why he says "It is you" when she pulls the lightsaber past him.
2 of those are continuity errors and the other 2 are just fleshing out what's in the movie.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
I understand stuff happens in the novel. But this thread is about the movie and what happens in the movie. On screen and what they said there. Right?
Or maybe he was literally just asking "what girl?" as a reply to "a girl".
I never understood why people assumed that what he said implied that he knew who she was.
I don't see how him saying "What girl" contradicts my read on the scene. The officer guy said "A girl helped them blah blah blah," Kylo makes a big show of Force pulling him over and choking him and asks, menacingly "What girl?" It's a logical question. He's pissed that a girl is involved, and nothing suggests it's anything more than that accept for pure speculation at this point.
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