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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

Halcyon

Member
I don't get the helicopter shot complaints.

I really, really don't. The shot structure you described, while it would -work-, is just super typical. I don't think it would have made the scene any better, and again I'm happy to see something different in these movies when it comes to shots/cinematography. And I think something about that shot reflected the... sort of confusing/ambiguous/what's ahead of these characters nature of the closing shot.

Of course you're absolutely entitled to your thoughts.

I think people have seen those complains somewhere from the initial reactions and have globbed onto it thinking it is a new idea.

The helicopter shot wasn't in any way jarring for me. I don't think people would have mentioned it without reddit comments.
 
They may call you the "Captain of the Blockbuster Defense Force," but I find myself agreeing with you 99.9% of the time. At least in the Jurassic World and Star Wars threads. Maybe I am just "Captain of the Defense Force for the Captain of the Blockbuster Defense Force."

You're more than welcome to be my Falcon co-pilot.
 
Luke is established as a good pilot by Obi-Wan during their first conversation. And he didn't "out-pilot" Vader, he caught a break because Han got a conscience and made a clean shot on Vader with the Falcon.

Luke mentions his skill, people are cool.

Rey mentions her skill, everybody wants proof of a scene of her actually flying something.
 

Daft_Cat

Member
It just feels out of place in a blockbuster movie like this. It felt more like how a tv show would end with a cliffhanger.

Really? It reminded me more of all those iconic helicopter shots from The Lord of the Rings - particularly the sweeping Rohan stuff from Two Towers.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
That's the internal conflict for him defecting, not for killing the people he has grown up with for the past whatever years. The beginning of Finn's turn was when one of his mates got shot and died in his muscly arms. Then almost immediately after that, he's killing more of his mates without a second thought. He's stabbing them with a lightsaber. It's a little too quick for my tastes. This is where Phasma could've been a lot more useful.

Yeah again people will try to justify that endlessly. But it really is what it is, it's not believable for the character considering how he's introduced, and the novel kind of tries to cover this better.
 

Cth

Member
I'd go with the latter. I dunno where people are picking up this Finn is force sensitive malarky from.

If I had to guess, presumably from the misguided idea that only Jedi's/Force Sensitives can activate lightsabers.

Also, I'd imagine that scene where Kylo stares at Finn.. some made it out to be him recognizing the Force.

All of that being said, there's the card game that shows Rey as Force Sensitive and Finn not.
 
I think people have seen those complains somewhere from the initial reactions and have globbed onto it thinking it is a new idea.

The helicopter shot wasn't in any way jarring for me. I don't think people would have mentioned it without reddit comments.

Mary Sue Mary Sue Mary Sue Mary Sue
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
Luke mentions his skill, people are cool.

Rey mentions her skill, everybody wants proof of a scene of her actually flying something.
The pilot thing is a weird complaint I've for Rey since she's shown flying the Falcon pretty shitty at the start and she's established as more of a mechanic. My problem is more with how she did force tricks that she's presumably never learned.

I think people have seen those complains somewhere from the initial reactions and have globbed onto it thinking it is a new idea.

The helicopter shot wasn't in any way jarring for me. I don't think people would have mentioned it without reddit comments.
What's up with this whole "any complaints that are made from more than one person = bandwagoning" thing I keep seeing here?
 
That's the internal conflict for him defecting, not for killing the people he has grown up with for the past whatever years. The beginning of Finn's turn was when one of his mates got shot and died in his muscly arms. Then almost immediately after that, he's killing more of his mates without a second thought. He's stabbing them with a lightsaber. It's a little too quick for my tastes. This is where Phasma could've been a lot more useful.

I guess I wanted something more from a defector.

Is it his mate? Or is it just a fellow soldier? The difference between that person who died and the other stormtroopers is they were all trying to kill him.

By the time he got the lightsaber he was not only defending himself but his newly found friends.
 

Interfectum

Member
Luke mentions his skill, people are cool.

Rey mentions her skill, everybody wants proof of a scene of her actually flying something.

Yup. The bush pilot manages to outperform every other X-Wing pilot and destroys the Deathstar without even looking cause a ghost tells him to. No probs.

A girl who's been on her own on a junk planet can fix stuff and fly aircraft as well... mary sue!!
 
That's the internal conflict for him defecting, not for killing the people he has grown up with for the past whatever years. .

You keep saying "people he has grown up with" like that intrinsically means anything. Firstly, there's like a million of those murderous motherfuckers scrambling all over the movie, so I doubt he has a huge connection to many of them, and secondly, even if there was, he just realized NONE OF THEM seem to have any problem with flat out murdering unarmed peasants.

Why would "Growing up with them" appreciably change his decision to do what he has to do? ESPECIALLY after he's witnessed his ex-organization take out five planets in one shot.

What's unbelievable is the idea that faced with the sort of murderous genocidal intent he was supposed to be a tool for, he's supposed to value his childhood friendships (that we don't even know he formed that tightly) with the faceless space nazis who have no problems being that tool, over his need to do the right thing.

What about his character as it's presented to us in the film suggests he'd waffle like that? Why is his need to do the right thing being framed as some sort of character flaw?
 

greycolumbus

The success of others absolutely infuriates me.
I think people have seen those complains somewhere from the initial reactions and have globbed onto it thinking it is a new idea.

The helicopter shot wasn't in any way jarring for me. I don't think people would have mentioned it without reddit comments.

I noticed it immediately. Arguably all of the final shots for the films are wonderfully composed. The helicopter shot stood out to me as lesser than and indeliberate. An odd sour note to end the film on.
 
So you believe that he left her on Jakku to keep her out of harms way and still she found her way to him?

I'd wager he left her on Jakku to avoid making the same mistake with her that he did with Kylo. Together with Han and Leia, he made the decision to train Kylo in the hope that he wouldn't succumb to the dark side. This wound up being a terrible strategy, just like it was with Anakin; Force training doesn't work very well when the trainer has their own agenda for their student, and their student is already heavily morally conflicted and has their own separate ambitions. The end result is that a wedge is driven between the student and the Jedi.

Luke ultimately chose Jedi training for himself - Obi-Wan had offered him an unconditional choice, and he made the choice after facing the consequences of his inaction.

This is very unlike Anakin, who went with Qui-Gon out of hope for a better life for himself and his mother and a belief that being a Jedi would let him live out his own personal crusade. ("I think [Qui-Gon has] come to free us. Why else would you be here?"; "It's what I've always dreamed of doing!"; "I will come back and free you, Mom, I promise.") He then had a great destiny thrust upon him by his teachers, one that ultimately conflicted with his own personal agenda. He didn't choose to be a Jedi because he realized the importance of training to become one to save the galaxy; he became a Jedi because he dreamed of using Jedi powers to make his personal fantasies come true.

We see in his conversations with Padme that this extends across his entire philosophy; he believes that the best way for peace and order to come about is for "someone wise" who can make people obey to come to power. Where Luke realized he needed to become a Jedi because he could no longer afford inaction; Anakin wants to become a Jedi out of wish fulfillment.

Likewise for Kylo: he was conscripted into Jedi training to try to put him on the path Luke/Leia/Han wanted for him. But it turned out he didn't see eye-to-eye with his father, felt like his family was a source of weakness, and inevitably rejected their wishes for him to pursue his own ambitions. (I'd wager he shares his grandfather's idealism that someone wise and powerful can bring peace to the galaxy by force and wants to be a vehicle to make this a reality.)

Luke also has stumbling blocks in his training that are very similar to those Anakin faced: the desire to save his friends and avenge his father overrides the instructions of his masters, and almost leads him to the dark side. But when faced with the reality that Darth Vader is his father, he realizes that justice isn't served through either offense or self-defense but through mercy; he discovers a kind of Middle Way. His father ultimately turns back to the light for much the same reason he took up Jedi training himself: when faced with the consequences of inaction, he was compelled to do what is right.

In the end, both of them achieve the most good by actually ignoring their training anyway; Luke wins by rejecting the opportunity to defeat Vader, and Vader wins by accepting the impulse to save someone he cares about. What allowed this to happen was the circumstances that led them to those definitive moments. That's something that can't be taught; that teaching in fact gets in the way of.

Rey is placed in more or less the same position as Luke. She's left on a desert planet with only hints of where she truly came from. She only leaves once faced with the immediate consequences of inaction. When she finally takes up the lightsaber, she also does so out of need, not out of an ambition for justice or a personal agenda or even because someone told her she should - remember that at first she recoiled from the Force and the saber, but only took it up when she was the only line of defense against Kylo. Once she accepts that destiny, she's able to allow herself to be guided by the Force, then she gets the information she needs to find Luke and begin her training.

She needed to be put in the position to choose to take "the first steps" to becoming a Jedi. And the best way to do that was to remove her from all the influences that would have pressured her to become one for reasons that were less than pure, or to follow an agenda that she didn't fully accept. The movie sets the audience up for what's going on with Rey by throwing the characters around her into similar situations: Finn's moment of realization that leaving the Order was "the right thing to do"; Finn deciding that he can't run away anymore after seeing the destruction wrought by Starkiller Base; Han going out of his comfort zone and appealing to his son; etc.

Could you imagine being the person who had to put her through that, though? Especially if she's kin? Especially after having lived it already himself and having to make all kinds of really difficult decisions to get where he was at the end of ROTJ? It'd be absolutely heartbreaking. At the same time, it's a terrifying decision that's fraught with its own risk - Rey could very well have rejected the saber completely, or turned to hate and utterly destroyed Kylo, leading her to the dark side.
 

Cth

Member
The pilot thing is a weird complaint I've for Rey since she's shown flying the Falcon pretty shitty at the start and she's established as more of a mechanic. My problem is more with how she did force tricks that she's presumably never learned.

Simple.

Kylo invaded her mind. She looked into his.

Basically, whatever he tried to absorb went both ways.

Kylo even specifies that the longer she's loose, the more powerful she'll become as she's testing these new abilities she has (stolen from Kylo's mind)

Besides, she's aware of Jedi's in general from her conversation with Han. Basic stuff like mind control (which she sees Kylo use), telekinesis (again, seeing Kylo having done so), etc.
 
Is it his mate? Or is it just a fellow soldier?

A good question. Movie, do you have an answer? No? Okay.

If it's his mate, who is he? What's his name? What is their friendship like? If it's a fellow soldier, why is that dude's death so impactful for him? Is it because it's his first time seeing someone die? If so, why was he so ready to kill more without a second thought.
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
Simple.

Kylo invaded her mind. She looked into his.

Basically, whatever he tried to absorb went both ways.

Kylo even specifies that the longer she's loose, the more powerful she'll become as she's testing these new abilities she has (stolen from Kylo's mind)

Besides, she's aware of Jedi's in general from her conversation with Han. Basic stuff like mind control (which she sees Kylo use), telekinesis (again, seeing Kylo having done so), etc.
I got the impression that she could tap into general force powers, not that she absorbed all of Kylo's. I'll take your word for it though.
 
The pilot thing is a weird complaint I've for Rey since she's shown flying the Falcon pretty shitty at the start and she's established as more of a mechanic. My problem is more with how she did force tricks that she's presumably never learned.

She says in the film that she's flown before, but never outside the atmosphere. It just took her a moment to get used to the falcon's controls.


Her ability with the force and the mind tricks were learned thru "Force".
Kylo being in her head and revealing her inner thoughts and fears forced her fight or flight to kick in. Luckily she was a force user and that allowed her to push him out. Having felt what it was like she quickly focused and turned the tables on him reading into his mind like he did to her.

Getting the storm trooper to free her, she was trying to replicate the feeling she had by using the techniques/stories she heard about the mythical Jedi. She was finally able to make the trick work on 3rd attempt when she was calm and focused.

Kylo is a good teacher.
 

Ophelion

Member
My problem is more with how she did force tricks that she's presumably never learned.

No one taught Luke to pull his lightsaber out of the snow on Hoth. Obi-Wan certainly didn't teach him that. People really strong in the force seem like they can spontaneously use force powers, especially in situations of extreme duress.

People will say it's different somehow, I'm sure, but to them I say, "No. No different. Only different in your mind. You must unlearn what you have learned."
 

Skinpop

Member
people actually think rey is a good character? I like the actress but the character is paper thin. she is perfect and that makes me root against her.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
You keep saying "people he has grown up with" like that intrinsically means anything. Firstly, there's like a million of those murderous motherfuckers scrambling all over the movie, so I doubt he has a huge connection to many of them, and secondly, even if there was, he just realized NONE OF THEM seem to have any problem with flat out murdering unarmed peasants.

Why would "Growing up with them" appreciably change his decision to do what he has to do? ESPECIALLY after he's witnessed his ex-organization take out five planets in one shot.

What's unbelievable is the idea that faced with the sort of murderous genocidal intent he was supposed to be a tool for, he's supposed to value his childhood friendships (that we don't even know he formed that tightly) with the faceless space nazis who have no problems being that tool, over his need to do the right thing.

What about his character as it's presented to us in the film suggests he'd waffle like that? Why is his need to do the right thing being framed as some sort of character flaw?
On that note, any time he's killing them it's because they are also shooting at him. The moment he tried to leave, they were trying to kill him in the Tie Fighter and elsewhere. Even if he had reason to have some affection for these random stormtroopers (and he didn't), that would cleanse the conscience real quick.
I got impression that she could tap into general force powers, not that she absorbed all of Kylo's. I'll take your word for it though.
Every force power she uses, she saw Kylo do (her last moment in the duel aside, which came from Maz). After Kylo was messing with Rey's mind, the first thing she ties is doing it on someone else. There's a subtext of Ren accidentally teaching Rey what she needs to know by example, as in the mind reading scene.
 

rekameohs

Banned
I think people have seen those complains somewhere from the initial reactions and have globbed onto it thinking it is a new idea.

The helicopter shot wasn't in any way jarring for me. I don't think people would have mentioned it without reddit comments.
Nah, the Mary Sue stuff seems to be exactly that, but I even made a note of the helicopter shot in my first post here without seeing anything else. It's more that it's just a shot that's never really been done in Star Wars before.
 

Halcyon

Member
On that note, any time he's killing them it's because they are also shooting at him. The moment he tried to leave, they were trying to kill him in the Tie Fighter and elsewhere. Even if he had reason to have some affection for these random stormtroopers (and he didn't), that would cleanse the conscience real quick.

I've only seen it the one time, but it seems like he was specifically enjoying shooting everything up. Like "whoa bro this is cooool" instead of "i'm under duress and just doing this to escape"

I may have that wrong though.
 

Interfectum

Member
I've only seen it the one time, but it seems like he was specifically enjoying shooting everything up. Like "whoa bro this is cooool" instead of "i'm under duress and just doing this to escape"

It's probably cathartic for him to do what he's doing. That's how I took it.
 

Ophelion

Member
I've only seen it the one time, but it seems like he was specifically enjoying shooting everything up. Like "whoa bro this is cooool" instead of "i'm under duress and just doing this to escape"

I may have that wrong though.

He's mostly elated at the fact he's making his shots and thus will get to go on living.

Later in the Falcon, there's something kind of cute about how he remarks, "I'm getting pretty good at this!"
 
You keep saying "people he has grown up with" like that intrinsically means anything. Firstly, there's like a million of those murderous motherfuckers scrambling all over the movie, so I doubt he has a huge connection to many of them, and secondly, even if there was, he just realized NONE OF THEM seem to have any problem with flat out murdering unarmed peasants.
I'm not the only one saying that, the movie is saying that. His arc begins with the other guy going all Cutting Crew on him, so clearly, his fellow Nazis mean something to him.


What's unbelievable is the idea that faced with the sort of murderous genocidal intent he was supposed to be a tool for, he's supposed to value his childhood friendships (that we don't even know he formed that tightly) with the faceless space nazis who have no problems being that tool, over his need to do the right thing.

Don't worry, they'll explain it all in the next movie.

What about his character as it's presented to us in the film suggests he'd waffle like that? Why is his need to do the right thing being framed as some sort of character flaw?
Lol, it's not a character flaw. I'm just saying that it would have been better if there was some internal conflict to him killing the people he grew up with. It would have been cool to see Phasma confronting him on Endor in TR-8R's place guilting him over killing his friends and whatnot and then he tells her to fuck off.

When I see the movie again, if there is a moment of hesitance before he starts blasting them away during his escape, I'll take it all back.
 
A good question. Movie, do you have an answer? No? Okay.

If it's his mate, who is he? What's his name? What is their friendship like? If it's a fellow soldier, why is that dude's death so impactful for him? Is it because it's his first time seeing someone die? If so, why was he so ready to kill more without a second thought.

He leans to the fallen storm trooper, but the death of the villagers is more impactful.
He literally is freaking out and the camera is clearly showing that (or the force).

Him lowering his weapon while they finish off the survivors shows he doesn't want to be apart of this. He literally stood there after it was all done, even staring down Kylo Ren.

They weren't fighting to bring any real kind of order. Seeing it first hand only showed that the FO will not hesitate to kill women, children or even him.

His internal conflict and wanting to leave the FO wasn't because one storm trooper he may have known marked his face.
 

SpyGuy239

Member
The pilot thing is a weird complaint I've for Rey since she's shown flying the Falcon pretty shitty at the start and she's established as more of a mechanic. My problem is more with how she did force tricks that she's presumably never learned.


What's up with this whole "any complaints that are made from more than one person = bandwagoning" thing I keep seeing here?

or did she learn them.....?!!?? dum dum dum
 

MMarston

Was getting caught part of your plan?
ok, I guess characters with no flaws are good characters then. makes for interesting drama..

She keeps lying to herself that her family will come back for her.

She tries to convince Finn to stay but ends up bailing herself after encountering the Force at Maz's place.
 
I've only seen it the one time, but it seems like he was specifically enjoying shooting everything up. Like "whoa bro this is cooool" instead of "i'm under duress and just doing this to escape"

I may have that wrong though.

Because it is cool. It's Star Wars. He's getting to use his training on people who DESERVE to be on the business end of it, while hanging out with a guy who instantly likes him. It's not too far removed from Luke mourning Ben for 2 minutes tops before climbing into the belly gun of the Falcon and having a party killing people for the next 5 minutes.

What is it about Finn that makes people believe we need to see him constantly, consistently second-guessing himself with regards to killing representatives the film's clear-cut genocidal maniacs?
 

GhaleonEB

Member
I've only seen it the one time, but it seems like he was specifically enjoying shooting everything up. Like "whoa bro this is cooool" instead of "i'm under duress and just doing this to escape"

I may have that wrong though.

His duress was written all over his face and body language - he was terrified during the entire escape sequence. He got excited when he shot down the turrets on the ship during the escape, and later the tie fighters chasing he and Rey in the Falcon, both of which were trying to kill him. Kinda understandable that he's be excited to take them out, since it meant he could keep living, IMO. (And be with his new BFF Poe.) And it was kinda cool, particularly given the duress of the situation.
not really

It sure isn't a demonstration of the perfection she's constantly accused of having.
 

Veelk

Banned
The thing I want to ask is is there a skill that Rey has that we can just take on faith. Luke was believed as being capable of fighting a space ship battle just because he claimed he was a good pilot the moment before he needed to be a good pilot.

If there was a situation that required someone good at X, and Rey was like "oh yeah, I do X all the time", would the audience just roll with the convenience?
 
I've only seen it the one time, but it seems like he was specifically enjoying shooting everything up. Like "whoa bro this is cooool" instead of "i'm under duress and just doing this to escape"

I may have that wrong though.

He only cheered when he took out the turrets on the ship. Not actually killing everyone in the hangar.
 
people actually think rey is a good character? I like the actress but the character is paper thin. she is perfect and that makes me root against her.

How is she perfect? Her main concern was getting back to Jakku to wait for whoever left her there, doesnt care about anything else for a while. She doesnt seem to trust anyone at first. She "runs" from Kylo during the first part of their battle int he forest instead of charging like a hero.

There might not be a lot of flaws, but shes far from Superwoman or some other perfect hero.
 

Halcyon

Member
Nah, the Mary Sue stuff seems to be exactly that, but I even made a note of the helicopter shot in my first post here without seeing anything else. It's more that it's just a shot that's never really been done in Star Wars before.

I can see that.


I think maybe it just didn't bother me. I thought they tried a handful of new shots and techniques that were new to the star wars universe.
 

Skinpop

Member
The fact her first instinct is to run after witnessing the force vision is a flaw, isn't it?

it doesn't say anything meaningful about her personality and no I wouldn't call it a flaw, it's just plot. a meaningful flaw would be something that relates to her motivations, or how she interacts with other characters.
 
How is she perfect? Her main concern was getting back to Jakku to wait for whoever left her there, doesnt care about anything else for a while. She doesnt seem to trust anyone at first. She "runs" from Kylo during the first part of their battle int he forest instead of charging like a hero.

There might not be a lot of flaws, but shes far from Superwoman or some other perfect hero.
adding to this

She runs from Kylo because she saw his scary M[ass]k in her vision.

She is afraid of him. You can see it in her eyes when she wakes up and sees him staring at her in the interrogation room.

Only when she realizes she can use the force, by being calm like she learned when she mind tricked the card does she let go of her fear and fight the way she has that allowed her to survive so long on Jakku.
 
I'm not the only one saying that, the movie is saying that. His arc begins with the other guy going all Cutting Crew on him, so clearly, his fellow Nazis mean something to him.

Or maybe that SINGLE PERSON did. Or maybe he thought he was down to do this until he saw that he was attacking a village full of tents, and saw someone bleeding out directly in front of him, and all the bullshit he's had drilled into his head about the glory of the First Order became super-apparent when a guy who also bought into that bullshit smeared his blood all over Finn's head before kicking rocks.

This seems like a pretty safe direction to go, right?

I'm just saying that it would have been better if there was some internal conflict to him killing the people he grew up with.

There we go with this shit again. In the face of witnessing, firsthand, that your childhood friends (again, who? How many? All of them indiscriminately share the same super-tight familial bond, just as a matter of fact? really?) are perfectly cool with being genocidal maniacs, how much weight should a character in a Star Wars movie place on "I grew up with... some of you million or so assholes"
 
just got out. What a mess. What a terrible shot in the water...

never I got lift, never I felt like I was transported in their universe. It's fucking star wars and nothing felt new or compelling, everything was a remake a retake or something we already seen thousand times... Nothing works but Rey character's.

Only interesting and new setting is the dark snowy forest in the final light saber duel.

World caracterisation went through the windows. My god, sure the movie sound better and is paced better than Lucas's prequels but I miss his obscension to detail and world building.

What a waste
 
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