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[lawnchair]

They talk about it in the movie. It's brief but it's all you really need. Star Wars had enough political bullshit in the prequels.

i've only seen it once, maybe i missed it. but i left the theater wondering what was going on with the situation with the republic, etc. many other people did too. what you consider "political bullshit" is considered to be important stuff by many people ..

 

[Blader]

I wish the audience discovered that Poe survived at the same time as Finn. It was pretty obvious, but would have made for a better moment.

But then for the rest of the time we're on Jakku, we'll keep thinking, "Okay, now when does Poe show up to save them?" It sets up a false expectation of something happening because the movie showed us that Poe survives. Or, alternatively, we could watch Poe survive and then escape Jakku on his own to return to the Resistance, but then that means following a third narrative alongside Rey/Finn/Han and Kylo Ren/Hux, which kind of mucks things up a bit.

 

[Guy.brush]

That article is absolute shit. "I made a movie once, and it was a complete mess, so I can tell when other filmmakers are having problems too!"

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the movie was always slated to end with Rey finding Luke. And Skellig Michael is a remote and heavily restricted location, it makes sense that they could only shoot three days there and only got that much out of it. Three days is not a very long time when you consider how difficult just setting up those shots must have been.

The number of deleted scenes that are more than filler supports the article though.
http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-the-force-awkens-deleted-scenes/

 

[Halcyon]

Imagine you are Poe. You have just captured a crucial piece of intel from an important Resistance ally, in a peaceful village. That village is then attacked, everyone slaughtered, prisoners executed, that Resistance ally murdered in cold blood. You are captured, brought to space Nazi base, and tortured. You are thinking you are probably going to die here when they are done with you. Then a random guard grabs you and helps you escape. Poe is rightfully ecstatic.

Now you are Finn. You've just realized your whole life is fucked, you've been raised since birth to be a part of the bad guys. If you go along with it, you are probably going to give your life for this bullshit. When you show human emotion after the Jakku mission, you are reprimanded and ordered to not remove your helmet. To suppress your humanity. If you fight it you are going to be re-indoctrinated or executed. You need to get the fuck out of there, but you can't fly. Your one hope is this Resistance pilot, someone you now recognize is part of the "good guys." Dude is so happy to get a chance to escape he gladly goes along with the plan. Dude gives you your fucking name. Dude is the first person in your life to treat you like a person rather than an expendable, faceless drone.

Poe and Finn are bros for life after that.

I'll probably be on your side after I see it a second time. I think that's been my main issue. Need to watch it another 5 times like the rest of you people.

 

[ProudCanuck]

When FINN bolted it was his first mission. He wasnt a fully operative stormtrooper. technically he never killed anyone innocent because he refused to fire on the town folks

 

[WadiumArcadium]

That article is absolute shit. "I made a movie once, and it was a complete mess, so I can tell when other filmmakers are having problems too!"

"Oh and please buy the movie I've repeatedly called a mess before you leave too!"

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

so i'm a dum dum because I was confused about why princess leia is once again the leader of a scrappy resistance movement even though her side won the war against the empire? many people seem to share the same confusion. are we all dum dums?

FO is after her brother and killing villages and anyone in their way to find his location.

Leia forms the Resistance to find her brother and to stomp out the last remaining remnants of the Empire.

Sure we want more details, but the basic motivations are there. All spelled out in the beginning.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

and this is the problem. by introducing that backstory it just doesn't work anymore.

It works just as well as it always did. Dunno why it wouldn't.

Maybe someone can post a super-convincing argument for why we should care about Finn killing stormtroopers in this film (all of whom are trying to kill him, and his friends, with their sun-destroying, solar-system killing superweapon), and we can split it out into its own thread called "Sympathy for Space Nazis: How The Force Awakens Mistreats Slaves"

 

[Brakke]

What were they supposed to do, march in and make a proclamation that all Stormtroopers who don't stand for this shit anymore should get off Starkiller Base before they torch it?

Your scope is wrong here. The unsettling thing isn't Finn's actions per se, but roll all the way back to the decision to create Finn in the first place. Because:

This whole line of conversation is kinda baffling, especially if you actually do have any familiarity with the conventions of this film series.

This movie broke a major convention: this was the first time we ever saw a Stormtrooper without a helmet on. The movie broke the convention and then didn't stop to consider what doing so meant. It's ok to kill Stormtroopers in the OT because they literally don't have faces, they don't have interior lives. They may as well be robots, we can happily assume they're all gung-ho for the Empire, whatever we want to do. Once we care about Finn, we shouldnt suspend that any more. It may still be necessary to kill redeemable, victimized Stormtroopers, but we need to have a little remorse at least.

Don't be a clown like this. You know I'm familiar with these movies.

Yes, and this isn't a contradiction. You don't hesitate to shoot space Nazis because one space Nazi defected.

Why not? Hesitation is cheap. We probably still blow up Starkiller, we can at least display some remorse about it. Presumably when we beat the Empire, a bunch of Imperial draftees went home to their moisture farms and their kids.

In the real world when we beat the Nazis, we didn't execute everyone who ever wore a Nazi uniform.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I actually don't disagree with the idea that Finn's sudden detachment from his fellow stormtroopers comes off a bit weird, especially when the film opened with him anguishing over not just the death of the villagers, but also the death of one of his fellow stormtroopers, who then marked him with his bloody hand. It seemed to me he was against any deaths, not just the villagers

That was my interpretation as well.

However, this is also the same series that has Luke see his family die and never let him get it down again. Same thing with Ben. It's the same series where Leia doesn't angst any after the scene of Alderan being destroyed, and no one is bothered by slaughtering stormtroopers by the dozens.

He just wanted to get some of those power converters at Toshi station.

Star wars characters are very plucky and not inclined to the mountains of psychological trauma they'd be experiencing if they were real people. Consider Finns response a flaw if you will, but it's one shared by many OT characters.

Fair enough.

Dude, I get what your saying... But the bolded are one and the same. You can't separate them.

My problem, I guess, is that I want morally grey characters in a series that doesn't really have them. It's either good or evil. Which is totally fine, but I want something more besides the usual good versus evil.

But he grew up with them!

It's a sticking point for NO REAL REASON THAT HE CAN ELABORATE UPON!

Dude, calm down. It's just a movie. Anyway, I don't elaborate on it because I feel it doesn't need to be elaborated on. He has been with these people for all of his life. It is literally his life. So him turning around and killing more of the people like him, the people he has spent all of this time with just seems weird.

But, like I keep saying, if he shows duress during his escape, I'm fine with that.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Dude, calm down.

I love when people do this, like it's going to help them somehow.

 

[Megalosaro]

Your scope is wrong here. The unsettling thing isn't Finn's actions per se, but roll all the way back to the decision to create Finn in the first place. Because:



This movie broke a major convention: this was the first time we ever saw a Stormtrooper without a helmet on. The movie broke the convention and then didn't stop to consider what doing so meant. It's ok to kill Stormtroopers in the OT because they literally don't have faces, they don't have interior lives. They may as well be robots, we can happily assume they're all gung-ho for the Empire, whatever we want to do. Once we care about Finn, we shouldnt suspend that any more. It may still be necessary to kill redeemable, victimized Stormtroopers, but we need to have a little remorse at least.

Don't be a clown like this. You know I'm familiar with these movies.



Why not? Hesitation is cheap. We probably still blow up Starkiller, we can at least display some remorse about it. Presumably when we beat the Empire, a bunch of Imperial draftees went home to their moisture farms and their kids.

In the real world when we beat the Nazis, we didn't execute everyone who ever wore a Nazi uniform.

But we damn near try, which is why we are still hunting down Nazis

 

[lawnchair]

FO is after her brother and killing villages and anyone in their way to find his location.

Leia forms the Resistance to find her brother and to stomp out the last remaining remnants of the Empire.

Sure we want more details, but the basic motivations are there. All spelled out in the beginning.

are you referring to this?

With the support of the REPUBLIC,
General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE.
She is desperate to find her
brother Luke and gain his
help in restoring peace and
justice to the galaxy.

that doesn't cut it for me.

 

[Guy.brush]

It works just as well as it always did. Dunno why it wouldn't.

Maybe someone can post a super-convincing argument for why we should care about Finn killing stormtroopers in this film (all of whom are trying to kill him, and his friends, with their sun-destroying, solar-system killing superweapon), and we can split it out into its own thread called "Sympathy for Space Nazis."

I think the argument is similar to the one people had when Matrix hit in 1999.
"We need to free humans from the terror of the machines! Lets arm ourselves to the teeth with guns and then kill two dozen security guards that are just doing their job!"
I found that moment to be a way bigger blunder though than the stuff in TFA. The timing and "whooooo" during the Tie escape is not perfect but it is far from the biggest problems the movie has.

 

[Blader]

The number of deleted scenes that are more than filler supports the article though.
http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-the-force-awkens-deleted-scenes/

Every movie has plenty of material cut, often for pacing or redundancy reasons. And certainly none of the deleted scenes listed here indicated a troubled movie that JJ had to salvage in editing.

And as is usually the case, I expect a fan edit that restores these scenes back into the movie to be far inferior to the actual film for exactly those reasons.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

Harrison is so great in this movie. I can't believe JJ got him to act. Last time Harrison looked like he gave a damn was The Fugitive

 

[GhaleonEB]

Why not? Hesitation is cheap. We probably still blow up Starkiller, we can at least display some remorse about it. Presumably when we beat the Empire, a bunch of Imperial draftees went home to their moisture farms and their kids.

In the real world when we beat the Nazis, we didn't execute everyone who ever wore a Nazi uniform.

Where exactly were the Rebellion or other good guys executing prisoners? Everyone who was ever killed on the New Order side was killed in self defense, to rescue others, or to stop them from slaughtering others. It was war.

There is no plausible moment when anyone should have hesitated to do so. You're looking for conflict when there's no reason for there to be one.

Harrison is so great in this movie. I can't believe JJ got him to act. Last time Harrison looked like he gave a damn was The Fugitive

I was really surprised at how easily he slipped back into character, and how much depth Ford gave him. It was Han, but we could see the toll the years and everything that happened had taken on him.

 

[QuantumZebra]

How is she perfect? Her main concern was getting back to Jakku to wait for whoever left her there, doesnt care about anything else for a while. She doesnt seem to trust anyone at first. She "runs" from Kylo during the first part of their battle int he forest instead of charging like a hero.

There might not be a lot of flaws, but shes far from Superwoman or some other perfect hero.

There's an agenda here that doesn't involve her actual character, trust me.

Luke's origin story is WAY more improbable than Rey's, but that is totes ok.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I love when people do this, like it's going to help them somehow.

That wasn't my intention. My point is that this is a harmless discussion about a movie about space wizards and space nazis and getting emotional about it isn't going to do anything. If I'm reading you wrong, then I am sorry.

 

[Skinpop]

It works just as well as it always did. Dunno why it wouldn't.

Maybe someone can post a super-convincing argument for why we should care about Finn killing stormtroopers in this film (all of whom are trying to kill him, and his friends, with their sun-destroying, solar-system killing superweapon), and we can split it out into its own thread called "Sympathy for Space Nazis."

because now stormtroopers are legitimate victims in their own right.
Before they were just faceless soldiers behind masks who we didn't know anything about. The whole thing breaks Finns character, he is all nonsense really.

There's an agenda here that doesn't involve her actual character, trust me.

Luke's origin story is WAY more improbable than Rey's, but that is totes ok.

I don't know what totes mean, but it's not an issue of improbability. Luke is whiny and kinda weak. we are shown how he progressively learns more about the force. Rey is a master martial artist, fencer, mechanic, pilot, linguist. She also learns to use the force in about five minutes, and she's compassionate, everybody likes and trusts her, she is brave.. the list goes on.

 

[LegendofLex]

Your scope is wrong here. The unsettling thing isn't Finn's actions per se, but roll all the way back to the decision to create Finn in the first place. Because:

This movie broke a major convention: this was the first time we ever saw a Stormtrooper without a helmet on. The movie broke the convention and then didn't stop to consider what doing so meant. It's ok to kill Stormtroopers in the OT because they literally don't have faces, they don't have interior lives. They may as well be robots, we can happily assume they're all gung-ho for the Empire, whatever we want to do. Once we care about Finn, we shouldnt suspend that any more. It may still be necessary to kill redeemable, victimized Stormtroopers, but we need to have a little remorse at least.

This is certainly the intention of the decision to give the Stormtroopers helmets instead of faces, but I think the audience internalizes the fact that Stormtroopers (and Imperials/First Order officers that don't wear helmets) usually represent a clear and present threat within the logic of the movie's universe, simply by virtue of what the Stormtroopers are usually doing when we see them die on-screen.

No one would hesitate to blow up a giant planet-destroying weapon that's pointed at them, regardless of how many human beings lived on it. The Star Wars universe is tidily free of the MAD doctrine for a reason, after all.

Even within the movie, the marker of a good guy Stormtrooper is "one who takes his helmet off to communicate."

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

are you referring to this?

With the support of the REPUBLIC,
General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE.
She is desperate to find her
brother Luke and gain his
help in restoring peace and
justice to the galaxy.

that doesn't cut it for me.

Of course not, that's why they show you why the resistance is needed.

 

[injurai]

Yup.


It's like the NeoGAF threads on GamerGate... stuff like this usually roots out people who have prejudice in their hearts.

Farm boy blows up impenetrable planet destroying space station while effectively blind = legit

Scavenger girl with more experience overall (being a lone survivor/fighter/mechanic/pilot) beats a guy who is bleeding out from a fucking bowcaster wound and has already fought someone else and killed his own father = mary sue

Thank you!

 

[Brakke]

Actually, I think we redeem Finn because he saw what the Order was doing and made the moral decision to leave, while every other stromtrooper is fine enough with being complicit in mass slaughter. Not because "it wasn't his fault."

People talk a lot of mess about not letting ISIS volunteers back after they defect. They set Finn as a brainwashed kidnappee so we don't think "well what the heck did he expect he was enlisting to do".

You make it sound like he was killing an army.

Other than stopping the troopers from killing him in the tie fighter and in the Millennium Falcon. Fin killed 3-4 Stormtroopers man to man on screen. And both times it was defending himself in the middle of battle at Maz's place.

He did kill an army. He's the reason the Resistance managed to blow up Starkiller.

 

[Guy.brush]

A nice first list of some of the bigger references to ANH and ESB this movie had:
http://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2015...owed-from-the-original-star-wars-trilogy.html

This is not counting the smaller bits like the chess game, the smuggling boards, the wait until the Falcon door is breached, the Falcon doing the tunnel run and many many others.

Is there a full list of every "rhyme"?

 

[LordOfChaos]

The movie doesn't do a very good job of explaining it, but I don't think it's that hard to conceive of:

After the events of ROTJ, the overall regime that administered the state [The Empire] collapsed and was taken over by the Rebellion, re-forming as a new Republic. After which the [still heavily armed] loyalists of The Empire re-consolidated their power in a significant amount of territory to form a new state, The First Order. The Republic and the First Order were then locked in a sort of cold war, where both sides made ostensible military concessions to prevent another full scale war. Amidst this "peace," The Resistance popped up to challenge the First Order within its own territory. The Resistance, while officially independent of the Republic, is clearly composed of key members of its founding organization (the Rebel Alliance), which likely makes diplomatic relations between the Republic and the First Order all the more shaky. This is the political situation leading into The Force Awakens.

That makes me curious as to First Order proxies within the New Republic. Surely there must be some.

 

[The Librarian]

Even with the implications of Stormtroopers being the way they are because it isn't their fault, there's no contradiction when shooting them when the times. Our heroes aren't going to stand there and let those soldiers shoot them.

C'mon.

 

[heliosRAzi]

People talk a lot of mess about not letting ISIS volunteers back after they defect. They set Finn as a brainwashed kidnappee so we don't think "well what the heck did he expect he was enlisting to do".

They're playing it safe.

Even with the implications of Stormtroopers being the way they are because it isn't their fault, there's no contradiction when shooting them when the times. Our heroes aren't going to stand there and let those soldiers shoot them.

C'mon.

Somewhere, the message got all muddled. I don't need him or anyone else to be 100% pacifist. I just want a tiny little morsel of something that shows some hesitance with killing [there's that shit again] between his turn and his escape. If, like Ghaleon said, there was some hesitance there and I missed it, then I'm okay with that.

 

[The Lamonster]

Even with the implications of Stormtroopers being the way they are because it isn't their fault, there's no contradiction when shooting them when the times. Our heroes aren't going to stand there and let those soldiers shoot them.

C'mon.

I was actually surprised to see how many stormtroopers were killed in this movie (and in the OT). It's kind of refreshing.

 

[Brakke]

There is no plausible moment when anyone should have hesitated to do so.

That's the problem. Not that the chatacters made morally bankrupt decisions, but that the film did. Why wasn't there a scene where anyone had the opportunity to be remorseful? Why did the film choose to put a face to Stormtroopers in the first place?

 

[Cth]

This is not counting the smaller bits like the chess game, the smuggling boards, the wait until the Falcon door is breached, the Falcon doing the tunnel run and many many others.

Wait.

They played chess in TFA?

Hilarious web page.. thanks for posting!

I haven't seen reaching like this since that Fantastic Four movie

 

[lawnchair]

Of course not, that's why they show you why the resistance is needed.

if you take the opening scroll, then watch the movie, a mountain of questions remain. if they would've answered some of these questions in the movie it would've been a better movie.

why does the support of the republic amount to a handful of x-wings?
why does the resistance carry the burden of fighting the first order?
where is the new republic? why are they seemingly uninterested/uninvolved in this conflict?
why are the resistance and the republic separate entities? wouldn't it make sense that after the fall of the empire leia would be at the top of the power structure of the republic? why isn't she?

i would've liked for the movie to explain some of these things. like i said, i've only seen it once (and i did quite like it) but just a liiiiiiiiiiiittle bit more exploration of the above questions would've been nice.

feel free to call me a dum-dum head if you think i'm wrong.

 

[Glass Shark]

.

 

[Guy.brush]

Wait.

They played chess in TFA?

Hilarious web page.. thanks for posting!

I haven't seen reaching like this since that Fantastic Four movie

Just so you know, that site is absolutely positive about TFA not trying to tear it down. it was the Starwars7 news site.

And yes, the holochess game was activated by Finn when he sat down.

 

[Skinpop]

Wait.

They played chess in TFA?

Hilarious web page.. thanks for posting!

I haven't seen reaching like this since that Fantastic Four movie

it's the reason people call this a real star wars movie. they just put everything in the original movie into this one when they made it.

 

[QuantumZebra]

No one is asking for sympathy for his poor Nazi friends. I just expect him to be more at odds with killing the people he grew up with. (There's that shit again). These people were his entire life up until that moment. There's going to be some internal stuff going on with him regarding that.

Do any of you people criticizing Finn realize how military structure works? Did you pay attention to his background??

Finn worked in SANITATION. Jakku was his first mission on a combat detail. It is 99% certain that his "pals he grew up with" (if he had any to begin with) are in a completely different battalion, company, platoon, etc...

Smdh between this and the "Rey is perfect she sux" I want to bash my head through a wall.

 

[LegendofLex]

That's the problem. Not that the chatacters made morally bankrupt decisions, but that the film did. Why wasn't there a scene where anyone had the opportunity to be remorseful? Why did the film choose to put a face to Stormtroopers in the first place?

Because we needed a proper foil to Kylo Ren.

Kylo is someone who chose to follow the dark side and join the First Order.
Finn was conscripted into the First Order at a young age.

When he first removes his mask, we learn that Kylo is terrified he won't be as powerful as his grandfather.
When he first removes his mask, we see that Finn is traumatized by how ruthless the First Order is.

When given a chance to turn back from the dark side, Kylo chooses instead to murder his father.
When given a chance to turn back from the First Order, Finn chooses to rescue Poe.

This film isn't supposed to leave us in suspense about whether it's possible to turn from unspeakable evil; that's literally the opening scenario of the film. When you multiply that effect across everything this movie is trying to give us, that's probably why it feels so eerily familiar; it's trying to bring new audiences up to speed with the thrust of the entire original trilogy (stakes, moral dilemmas, and all) within one movie.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

People talk a lot of mess about not letting ISIS volunteers back after they defect. They set Finn as a brainwashed kidnappee so we don't think "well what the heck did he expect he was enlisting to do".



He did kill an army. He's the reason the Resistance managed to blow up Starkiller.

First of all, He was more concerned with destroying the weapon that just murdered fucking planets with billions of people on it.

2nd, its not like they just sat there why the planet fell apart.
They had a chance to leave as they showed.

 

[OricWindstar]

I love when people do this, like it's going to help them somehow.

It's not really a film thread until someone tells you to calm down.

 

[MrPressStart]

and this is the problem. by introducing that backstory it just doesn't work anymore. stormtroopers aren't faceless murderers anymore but are now victims of brainwashing, child abuse and kidnapping. it was a huge mistake to mess with this stuff.

I disagree... it was obvious the clones had issues, but even more obvious that the Republic had to rebuild its army some how.. it really is no different than Al Quadi (spelling) or certain groups in 3rd world countries that do the same thing.

 

[The Librarian]

it's the reason people call this a real star wars movie. they just put everything in the original movie into this one when they made it.

Well, not everything.

Female characters aren't treated like shit.

 

[Brakke]

Because we needed a proper foil to Kylo Ren.

This is all fine. We just paid a real high cost to get it.

First of all, He was more concerned with destroying the weapon that just murdered fucking planets with billions of people on it.

Actually he was "more concerned" with rescuing Rey at any cost.

 

[LegendofLex]

This is all fine. We just paid a real high cost to get it.

What's the cost? People were writing up stuff about how Luke Skywalker was just a terrorist because the Empire was just a bunch of normal people going about their lives and trying to be space police for years before this movie came out.

Newsflash: villains in good vs. evil tales are still human, even though they're also villains. They already unmasked Darth fucking Vader in the last film and all three of the prequels; I don't think the franchise is making any bones about this dilemma at this point.

Besides, for all we know humanizing the villains is going to leave its mark on the stories of future episodes anyway.

 

[GhaleonEB]

This is all fine. We just paid a real high cost to get it.

There was no cost whatsoever for it; you're trying to find something that simply isn't there.

 

[OnPoint]

I was really surprised at how easily he slipped back into character, and how much depth Ford gave him. It was Han, but we could see the toll the years and everything that happened had taken on him.

I was harsh on his performance the first time I watched it. The second time around, I picked up on a lot more from his performance.

 

[MrPressStart]

it's the reason people call this a real star wars movie. they just put everything in the original movie into this one when they made it.

That is a bit of an overstatement. Planet combat with x wings was new... Kylo Ren was new... Star Killer was a great idea (but I wish they would have left it alone until movie 8.)
Yes it had references to the old movies... but to be honest.. after the prequels it needed those references. Remember a lot of the new Star Wars fans (kids and yound adults) have not seen the original movies.... They only know the prequels.

I thought it was damn near perfect considering the fact that no matter what they did... people would complain.

 

[MrPressStart]

What's the cost? People were writing up stuff about how Luke Skywalker was just a terrorist because the Empire was just a bunch of normal people going about their lives and trying to be space police for years before this movie came out.

Newsflash: villains in good vs. evil tales are still human, even though they're also villains. They already unmasked Darth fucking Vader in the last film and all three of the prequels; I don't think the franchise is making any bones about this dilemma at this point.

Those people never saw the prequels that explains how the empire came about and all of the innocent people they killed.

 

[Skinpop]

Well, not everything.

Female characters aren't treated like shit.

is this a joke? leia was a great character, especially considering when the original trilogy was made.

 

[LegendofLex]

Those people never saw the prequels that explains how the empire came about and all of the innocent people they killed.

Good; even for someone who hasn't seen the prequels, in the new film they've been fast-forwarded into the present-day condition of the universe and recapped "the moral lessons so far" in one film. Wasn't that the point of all the callbacks?

 

[MrPressStart]

I was harsh on his performance the first time I watched it. The second time around, I picked up on a lot more from his performance.

Ford deserves praise for his role in this movie. He really did a knock out job. Gave the movie everything it needed and died trying to save his son. A tragic death for a Star Wars icon... what more could you ask for?