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[LegendofLex]

it doesn't say anything meaningful about her personality and no I wouldn't call it a flaw, it's just plot. a meaningful flaw would be something that relates to her motivations, or how she interacts with other characters.

I would think that running away from the first sign that she actually needs to be a long-term participant in the fight against the First Order, after having exhibited hesitation to do anything to help beyond getting BB-8 - who had been a source of tremendous anxiety and constant threats for her up to that point - safely to the Resistance, demonstrates that she isn't particularly motivated to be a good guy during the first two acts of the film (and most of the third) beyond what serves her interests in the immediate term. She just wants to get the danger off her back so she can go back to waiting for her family to pick her up someday.

That's a pretty deep character flaw in a saga about good vs. evil.

I'm not the only one saying that, the movie is saying that. His arc begins with the other guy going all Cutting Crew on him, so clearly, his fellow Nazis mean something to him.

I can distill how I felt about that to a single sentence:

"Why should I stick around to die for the cause that's willing to butcher a village?"

 

[TUSR]

Nothing works but Rey character's.

?

 

[Brakke]

Why would "Growing up with them" appreciably change his decision to do what he has to do? ESPECIALLY after he's witnessed his ex-organization take out five planets in one shot.

Because he knows exactly the kind of conformity training they've been subjected to. Because he knows none of them have anything worth living for, no families, no identities. It should be hard to hate a slave.

Even if he had reason to have some affection for these random stormtroopers (and he didn't), that would cleanse the conscience real quick.

Killing someone in "self defense" doesn't necessarily cleanse the conscience. PTSD can happen, justified homicide or not.

They do an OK job with Finn reluctant to fight. His haunted monologue in Maz's about wanting to run is good. It is super weird that he never once shows any sympathy to a Stormtrooper after he takes off his helmet though.

...except Phasma? The officer, the person who orders his re-education, who ordered him to massacre the villagers, the person above rank-and-file, who maybe isn't a kidnapped brainwashed baby: Phasma gets a goofball exit while enslaved grunts get savagely stabbed and blasted.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

I would think that running away from the first sign that she actually needs to be a long-term participant in the fight against the First Order, after having exhibited hesitation to do anything to help beyond getting BB-8 - who had been a source of tremendous anxiety and constant threats for her up to that point - safely to the Resistance, demonstrates that she isn't particularly motivated to be a good guy during the first two acts of the film (and most of the third) beyond what serves her interests in the immediate term.

She also didn't want to abandon him, which calls back to her own insecurities of being abandoned.

Her face, when she thought about selling off BB-8 or when trying to convince Finn to stay and help deliver BB-8, shows her motivations if you look close enough.

 

[Blader]

I've never heard the expression "a shot in the water" before.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

it doesn't say anything meaningful about her personality and no I wouldn't call it a flaw, it's just plot. a meaningful flaw would be something that relates to her motivations, or how she interacts with other characters.

It does relate to her motivations though. She wants to run back to Jakku, she decides to get the hell out of there after seeing the vision.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Because he knows exactly the kind of conformity training they've been subjected to. Because he knows none of them have anything worth living for, no families, no identities. It should be hard to hate a slave.

They're brainwashed genocidal murderers and he's not Jesus. It's not hard to hate someone firing shots at you for having the moral fortitude to not kill unarmed innocents. Especially not in a Star Wars movie.

They're still stormtroopers, after all.

It's not super-weird that he kills bad guys. It's super-weird that his acting like a hero is somehow being used as a character flaw or example of bad writing.

 

[LegendofLex]

She also didn't want to abandon him, which calls back to her own insecurities of being abandoned.

Her face, when she thought about selling off BB-8 or when trying to convince Finn to stay and help deliver BB-8, shows her motivations if you look close enough.

Don't get me wrong; she's a good person beneath the loner facade and her preoccupation with reuniting with her family.

But there's no way you can give this film an honest viewing and come away with the conclusion that she was anything but afraid, anxious, and initially self-interested every time she had to make a tough call.

 

[Halcyon]

There we go with this shit again. In the face of witnessing, firsthand, that your childhood friends (again, who? How many? All of them indiscriminately share the same super-tight familial bond, just as a matter of fact? really?) are perfectly cool with being genocidal maniacs, how much weight should a character in a Star Wars movie place on "I grew up with... some of you million or so assholes"

Because that counteracts what we observe about human nature. They don't think of themselves as the bad guys. He's been in a system for his entire life following rules. Even if it's his first deployment and he has had major reservations about the whole thing, there's part of his being that is part of that community. That's part of being brainwashed.

What I think is implied through his actions is that he's special in some way not described in this movie. Like he's not just a normal stormtrooper, but has the force or some such and resisted all the brainwashing.

But if it's as simple is stormtrooper realizes he's on the wrong side of this battle and wants to be a good guy, i'm fine with that too because it's a movie. I just don't think that's the best crafting of a character.

 

[UnluckyKate]

?

Finn doesn't work. Maybe I'm sick and tired of hero's initiative journey, going through bravery but not too much to cowardly behavior but ultimately hero action when going to save the girl, but I never felt sympathy for him.

Poe was nice but disapeared and brought back magically... Too bad Han totally stole the show in the mean time. Hux oh my god wtf where they thinking and WTF is Snoke ? They had to have another Palpatine in the dark for later but it doesn't work

Her, in the mean time, had an amazing character introduction (also, world building) and just enough back story teased to give her a motivation and balance her will to board the falcon. In the end she's more interesting, more relatable, more competent (credible actress too, the mind struggle scene against kilo is very convincing and mustn't have been easy to do)

and that's without even mentioning her relation to the force.

I'm glad it's her who got the force and not Finn because if we had to have another movie around Finn not doing what to do with Luke and the force, it would suck. I have better hope of training scene and initiative journey with Rey.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Or maybe that SINGLE PERSON did.

We don't know because the movie doesn't dwell on it at all.

Or maybe he thought he was down to do this until he saw that he was attacking a village full of tents, and saw someone bleeding out directly in front of him, and all the bullshit he's had drilled into his head about the glory of the First Order became super-apparent when a guy who also bought into that bullshit smeared his blood all over Finn's head before kicking rocks.

This seems like a pretty safe direction to go, right?

Sounds great. Put it in the movie. As it stands, we see him in the middle of his change. For me, I think it would've been cool to see Finn doing some janitorial work before being called up to go down to Jakku. Personally, I would've liked to see him be "Ra ra, space Nazis" and then have his change of heart.

In the face of witnessing, firsthand, that your friends are perfectly cool with being genocidal maniacs, how much weight should a character in a Star Wars movie place on "I grew up with... some of you million or so assholes?"

I'd expect something besides nothing. Still, if he was under duress during the escape, I might be completely fine with that. It's been a while since I've seen the movie so it's not as fresh in my head.

 

[Glass Shark]

.

 

[LegendofLex]

Literally everyone in this thread needs to read Before the Awakening before posting anything else.

So many posts speculating on stuff that is confirmed canon.

The thing about film franchises is that it's a really bad idea to have the answers to people's questions arise from media that isn't film.

 

[lawnchair]

wanted to go see it for the 2nd time, but ALL of the showings at my local theater of choice are SOLD OUT for the day. damn you star warzz

 

[MMarston]

Literally everyone in this thread needs to read Before the Awakening before posting anything else.

So many posts speculating on stuff that is confirmed canon.

Okay I enjoyed the movie, but I think most here agreed that having to rely on external material doesn't really help the movie's case for those who didn't like it.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

Because he knows exactly the kind of conformity training they've been subjected to. Because he knows none of them have anything worth living for, no families, no identities. It should be hard to hate a slave.



Killing someone in "self defense" doesn't necessarily cleanse the conscience. PTSD can happen, justified homicide or not.

It is super weird that he never once shows any sympathy to a Stormtrooper after he takes off his helmet though.

...except Phasma? The officer, the person who orders his re-education, who ordered him to massacre the villagers, the person above rank-and-file, who maybe isn't a kidnapped brainwashed baby: Phasma gets a goofball exit while enslaved grunts get savagely stabbed and blasted.

Then you can say that about all the characters then, not just Finn. Seems like you are focused on calling out Finn for not having PTSD, while he is still in the thick of things.

Maybe him not having any remorse should tell you that they aren't friends. Again Finn does care, him running to a fallen soldier proves that, but at the same time, these stormtroopers arent like him. They are following orders no matter what and he is in the line of fire. Finn has shown that he values his life and the life of his new friends more than his ex fellow soldiers.

Remember Finn worked in sanitation and Jakku was his first mission.
The people who are likely to be "friends" would be the people on guard duty or slave labor. Not the elites performing raids and slaughtering villages, and oh yeah... trying to kill him.

I picture a fan fiction with Traitor trooper as an instructor though, who is like "FN-2178 was my best student, I'll deal with him"

 

[Ophelion]

Not everyone has to be Batman levels of fucked up in order to be a compelling character. Rey is fine. She's a country girl who wants to do good, but isn't sure how she's going to do that. She has minor flaws, but mostly a big mass of skills and is morally upstanding. Pretty much she's Luke. Luke by himself is kind of boring too, but he's a great foil for Han and their interplay is always fun to watch. It'll be like that with Rey too, whether she keeps playing off Finn or if they throw Poe in the mix those characters will pop more because they're playing off Rey.

Stories take all kinds. There is no right way to put together a person. Would it enhance this story in any way if we found out that Rey had to murder more than a few people to survive on Jakku or that she was a little bit racist since all the shitty people on Jakku who were terrible to her were aliens and all her new friends who are nice are human?

I don't think so. It's just not that kind of story. And that is fine.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

But if it's as simple is stormtrooper realizes he's on the wrong side of this battle and wants to be a good guy, i'm fine with that too

Then why is this still even a discussion anyone's having? You summed up the obviousness of the thing in a single sentence.

I'm just sorta baffled at how you watch a Star Wars movie and see Finn shedding (literally - he's walking through the desert and shedding his identity as a Stormtrooper, piece by piece) that old life and go "yeah, but what about his poor Nazi friends!"

They're fuckin NAZIS in a space fairytale about evil wizards trying to subjugate an entire galaxy.

Fuck 'em.

Sounds great. Put it in the movie.

Considering how much obvious shit is flat-out displayed as plainly as possible in the film (which isn't subtle in the least) I'm not entirely sure this super-simple suggestion you're making would actually help any.

 

[Veelk]

Because that counteracts what we observe about human nature. They don't think of themselves as the bad guys. He's been in a system for his entire life following rules. Even if it's his first deployment and he has had major reservations about the whole thing, there's part of his being that is part of that community. That's part of being brainwashed.

I actually don't disagree with the idea that Finn's sudden detachment from his fellow stormtroopers comes off a bit wierd, especially when the film opened with him anguishing over not just the death of the villagers, but also the death of one of his fellow stormtroopers, who then marked him with his bloody hand. It seemed to me he was against any deaths, not just the villagers

However, this is also the same series that has Luke see his family die and never let him get it down again. Same thing with Ben. It's the same series where Leia doesn't angst any after the scene of Alderan being destroyed, and no one is bothered by slaughtering stormtroopers by the dozens.

Star wars characters are very plucky and not inclined to the mountains of psychological trauma they'd be experiencing if they were real people. Consider Finns response a flaw if you will, but it's one shared by many OT characters.

 

[Glass Shark]

.

 

[lawnchair]

Okay I enjoyed the movie, but I think most here agreed that having to rely on external material doesn't really help the movie's case for those who didn't like it.

that's kinda where i'm at. ANY reliance on material outside the movie can't be used to explain away issues with the movie itself..

 

[LegendofLex]

Star Wars transcends film.

I'd say for the vast majority of people who have experienced Star Wars, their only point of entry has been the film universe.

The fact that other stuff exists is great, but the logic of the film universe shouldn't depend on it.

 

[MMarston]

Star Wars transcends film.

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that we need to judge this film as a film.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Then why is this still even a discussion anyone's having? You summed up the obviousness of the thing in a single sentence.

I'm just sorta baffled at how you watch a Star Wars movie and see Finn shedding (literally - he's walking through the desert and shedding his identity as a Stormtrooper, piece by piece) that old life and go "yeah, but what about his poor Nazi friends!"

They're fuckin NAZIS in a space fairytale about evil wizards trying to subjugate an entire galaxy.

Fuck 'em.

No one is asking for sympathy for his poor Nazi friends. I just expect him to be more at odds with killing the people he grew up with. (There's that shit again). These people were his entire life up until that moment. There's going to be some internal stuff going on with him regarding that.

 

[-griffy-]

Finn gets upset by the space Nazi dying and smearing blood on him because he realizes that could be him. He doesn't necessarily give a shit about the one who died, or that his "buddies" are dying around him, it freaks him out because in that moment he realizes they are all being asked to give their lives for the cause, a cause he is seeing first hand is fucked up and involves indiscriminately slaughtering innocents and executing prisoners. That moment is him realizing his life has been a lie, his "buddies" are cool with dying for the First Order, have no problem killing anyone for any reason. The blood represents his potential death for a cause he doesn't believe in, so he wants the fuck out, and takes his first opportunity to do so.

 

[Glass Shark]

.

 

[Brakke]

They're brainwashed genocidal murderers and he's not Jesus. It's not hard to hate someone firing shots at you for having the moral fortitude to not kill unarmed innocents. Especially not in a Star Wars movie.

They're still stormtroopers, after all.

It's not super-weird that he kills bad guys. It's super-weird that his acting like a hero is somehow being used as a character flaw or example of bad writing.

It's trying to have its cake and eat it. We try to redeem Finn by saying his participating in the Order wasn't his fault. But we also say it's ok to slaughter Stormtroopers by the planet-load because they participate in the Order?

A major theme of the OT is that nobody is beyond redemption. Vader, total villain, is allowed a face turn. Luke insists to the last on giving Vader that opportunity. Finn, a Stormtrooper with a rich interior life, doesn't even stop to consider that other 'troopers might have their own interior lives.

If Stormtroopers are literally faceless then murdering them isn't so bad: they signify not-humans, dramatically: they're barely-sapient hurdles for heroes to leap. When you make them abused victims worthy of wearing a hero's (literal) mantel, the signifiers change.

 

[Veelk]

No one is asking for sympathy for his poor Nazi friends. I just expect him to be more at odds with killing the people he grew up with. (There's that shit again). These people were his entire life up until that moment. There's going to be some internal stuff going on with him regarding that.

Dude, I get what your saying... But the bolded are one and the same. You can't separate them.

 

[Jonm1010]

just got out. What a mess. What a terrible shot in the water...

never I got lift, never I felt like I was transported in their universe. It's fucking star wars and nothing felt new or compelling, everything was a remake a retake or something we already seen thousand times... Nothing works but Rey character's.

Only interesting and new setting is the dark snowy forest in the final light saber duel.

World caracterisation went through the windows. My god, sure the movie sound better and is paced better than Lucas's prequels but I miss his obscension to detail and world building.

What a waste

This is pretty hyperbolic overall but I do agree the film failed to deliver the sort of world building I was hoping for.

The prequels didn't have much going for them and their execution was even worse, but at least Lucas put real effort into building the Star Wars universe from a visual stand point.

Those little awe moments with well shot cinematography are what makes films like LoTR so immersive. Done wrong you get crap like the prequels, done right you gets things like LoTR, Star Wars OT, Avatar and Mad Max. What we got with TFA was really not much effort at all.

I still think the film was very good on reflection but if I had one critique outside of no breathing room it was the lack of visual world building.

 

[LegendofLex]

No one is asking for sympathy for his poor Nazi friends. I just expect him to be more at odds with killing the people he grew up with. (There's that shit again). These people were his entire life up until that moment. There's going to be some internal stuff going on with him regarding that.

We straight-up have no idea based on the film how connected Finn was with any of his fellow Stormtroopers, including the one whose death rattles him on Jakku. We can vaguely sense some tension between him and Phasma, which given that every other Stormtrooper seems to be on board with the program couldn't possibly have lent itself to tight ties between him and his fellow troopers.

It's telling that he goes off inside a lander to freak out in isolation right after returning from Jakku instead of confiding in someone else.

It's trying to have its cake and eat it. We try to redeem Finn by saying his participating in the Order wasn't his fault. But we also say it's ok to slaughter Stormtroopers by the planet-load because they participate in the Order?

What were they supposed to do, march in and make a proclamation that all Stormtroopers who don't stand for this shit anymore should get off Starkiller Base before they torch it?

They needed to get rid of Starkiller Base because Starkiller Base was an imminent threat to the Resistance (i.e. weapon confirmed to be charging and aimed at them), which was standing up against a clearly rampaging First Order, regardless of how many Stormtroopers happened to be on it.

People hold Finn up because when faced with the brutal reality of what his contributions to the First Order would mean, he refused to contribute.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Dude, I get what your saying... But the bolded are one and the same. You can't separate them.

But he grew up with (absolutely all of) them!

It's a sticking point for NO REAL REASON THAT HE CAN ELABORATE UPON!

But we also say it's ok to slaughter Stormtroopers by the planet-load because they participate in the Order?.

It's okay to slaughter Stormtroopers because they're stormtroopers. This is basic Star Wars. Have you ever questioned, at any point, why nobody else on the good guy's side, in ANY previous Star Wars movie, had zero problems murdering agents of a genocidal, planet-killing regime?

This whole line of conversation is kinda baffling, especially if you actually do have any familiarity with the conventions of this film series.

 

[PopeReal]

just got out. What a mess. What a terrible shot in the water...

never I got lift, never I felt like I was transported in their universe. It's fucking star wars and nothing felt new or compelling, everything was a remake a retake or something we already seen thousand times... Nothing works but Rey character's.

Only interesting and new setting is the dark snowy forest in the final light saber duel.

World caracterisation went through the windows. My god, sure the movie sound better and is paced better than Lucas's prequels but I miss his obscension to detail and world building.

What a waste

I find the "I miss Lucas" narrative the most interesting in these types of posts.

Sorry you didn't like it but it feels like Star Wars to me and I can only hope the movies stay as good as this one.

 

[Halcyon]

Then why is this still even a discussion anyone's having? You summed up the obviousness of the thing in a single sentence.

Because I'm really bored at work. I love The Force Awakens. I just remember a few story bits being a little off and I'm in the camp of Finn's backstory and motivation being a little wonky.

I also think him and Poe's immediate bromance was how you'd expect them to act in movie 2 and not movie 1.

 

[GhaleonEB]

It's trying to have its cake and eat it. We try to redeem Finn by saying his participating in the Order wasn't his fault. But we also say it's ok to slaughter Stormtroopers by the planet-load because they participate in the Order?

Yes, and this isn't a contradiction. You don't hesitate to shoot space Nazis because one space Nazi defected.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

Okay I enjoyed the movie, but I think most here agreed that having to rely on external material doesn't really help the movie's case for those who didn't like it.

Haven't read any of the material, I've just seen the movie a hell of a lot times, because of friends and family so I've been able to catch little things here and there.

My only gripes with the film (even though I understand why they were made) was it mirroring ANH and the lack of info on the Republic.

Enjoyed the movie despite this, but a lot of the character complaints I see in here, stem from missed or overlooked information that was presented through visuals instead of needless exposition.

 

[Perfect Cha0s]

No one is asking for sympathy for his poor Nazi friends. I just expect him to be more at odds with killing the people he grew up with. (There's that shit again). These people were his entire life up until that moment. There's going to be some internal stuff going on with him regarding that.

If we want to dive into the realm of theoretical pasts we aren't actually informed of, he could just as easily have never seen any other trooper's face, and thought his missions were going to be daring acts of heroism, not slaughtering villagers for simply living in the same place as a guy who had something your boss wanted.

 

[The Librarian]

it doesn't say anything meaningful about her personality and no I wouldn't call it a flaw, it's just plot. a meaningful flaw would be something that relates to her motivations, or how she interacts with other characters.

Did you watch the movie? The whole reason she runs away after the vision, after what Maz tells her, is because embracing her future would mean, definitively, giving up on the best hope she has of meeting her family. The only hope that kept her going for so long. Deep down, she knows whoever left her there isn't coming back, but at that point, she's not ready to give it up.

 

[Guy.brush]

Am I the only one that believes it to be super cool that we got a Star Wars ending scene that played out like a silent film, full of ambiguity to the point where we can speculate but won't fully understand until later?

IMO this was JJ at his most developed, experience wise. It still wasn't perfect, but it was close, and he made some very interesting and artistic choices for this film. I think when we look back on it all in the future that we'll appreciate some of these choices more, at least if Rian and Colin really come in and justify them further.

I can say without a doubt that this was the most interesting episode when it comes to shaking up the formula, even despite the complaints of it copying ANH's plot points at times. I guess that's why it didn't feel like ANH to me beyond surface level comparisons.

They shot for 3 days on Skellig island, I think they left at least 1-2 scenes on the cutting room floor. That last helicopter shot, the whole scene feels like another bandaid solution to whatever problems they were having because Iger wouldn't give them another 6 months.
You can feel these seams everywhere in the movie and it is the most frustrating feeling.
Seeing this new charismatic cast and what could have been if they would have cooked the script and planning for XIII and IX longer before starting to serve it.

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/12/28/star-wars-storytelling-and-fixing-it-in-post

 

[Ophelion]

It's trying to have its cake and eat it. We try to redeem Finn by saying his participating in the Order wasn't his fault. But we also say it's ok to slaughter Stormtroopers by the planet-load because they participate in the Order?

A major theme of the OT is that nobody is beyond redemption. Vader, total villain, is allowed a face turn. Luke insists to the last on giving Vader that opportunity. Finn, a Stormtrooper with a rich interior life, doesn't even stop to consider that other 'troopers might have their own interior lives.

If Stormtroopers are literally faceless then murdering them isn't so bad: they signify not-humans, dramatically: they're barely-sapient hurdles for heroes to leap. When you make them abused victims worthy of wearing a hero's (literal) mantel, the signifiers change.

What was Finn supposed to do? They were trying to kill him. It's not like he's had an opportunity to try to explain himself, to justify his actions to any of these people. He's been outnumbered and outgunned every time he runs into his fellow Stormtroopers and the moment they see him it seems like someone basically screams, "Kill the traitor!"

Then the blaster bolts start flying and your choices are lay down and die or kill you some space Nazis. Seems like a pretty easy choice in the moment. We haven't really seen enough of Finn not directly in the shit to see if it bothers him after the fact.

It would be really cool to see him involved in the interrogation of New Order prisoners though. It would actually be really great if he became instrumental in programs started by the Resistance to try and unbrainwash New Order POWs.

 

[Blader]

It's trying to have its cake and eat it. We try to redeem Finn by saying his participating in the Order wasn't his fault. But we also say it's ok to slaughter Stormtroopers by the planet-load because they participate in the Order?

Actually, I think we redeem Finn because he saw what the Order was doing and made the moral decision to leave, while every other stromtrooper is fine enough with being complicit in mass slaughter. Not because "it wasn't his fault."

 

[QuantumZebra]

Yup. The bush pilot manages to outperform every other X-Wing pilot and destroys the Deathstar without even looking cause a ghost tells him to. No probs.

A girl who's been on her own on a junk planet can fix stuff and fly aircraft as well... mary sue!!

Yup.


It's like the NeoGAF threads on GamerGate... stuff like this usually roots out people who have prejudice in their hearts.

Farm boy blows up impenetrable planet destroying space station while effectively blind = legit

Scavenger girl with more experience overall (being a lone survivor/fighter/mechanic/pilot) beats a guy who is bleeding out from a fucking bowcaster wound and has already fought someone else and killed his own father = mary sue

 

[-griffy-]

Because I'm really bored at work. I love The Force Awakens. I just remember a few story bits being a little off and I'm in the camp of Finn's backstory and motivation being a little wonky.

I also think him and Poe's immediate bromance was how you'd expect them to act in movie 2 and not movie 1.

Imagine you are Poe. You have just captured a crucial piece of intel from an important Resistance ally, in a peaceful village. That village is then attacked, everyone slaughtered, prisoners executed, that Resistance ally murdered in cold blood. You are captured, brought to space Nazi base, and tortured. You are thinking you are probably going to die here when they are done with you. Then a random guard grabs you and helps you escape. Poe is rightfully ecstatic.

Now you are Finn. You've just realized your whole life is fucked, you've been raised since birth to be a part of the bad guys. If you go along with it, you are probably going to give your life for this bullshit. When you show human emotion after the Jakku mission, you are reprimanded and ordered to not remove your helmet. To suppress your humanity. If you fight it you are going to be re-indoctrinated or executed. You need to get the fuck out of there, but you can't fly. Your one hope is this Resistance pilot, someone you now recognize is part of the "good guys." Dude is so happy to get a chance to escape he gladly goes along with the plan. Dude gives you your fucking name. Dude is the first person in your life to treat you like a person rather than an expendable, faceless drone.

Poe and Finn are bros for life after that.

 

[lawnchair]

It's not "explaining away" anything. It's spelled-out reinforcement for dum-dums who can't pick up on things the film clearly implies.

so i'm a dum dum because I was confused about why princess leia is once again the leader of a scrappy resistance movement even though her side won the war against the empire? many people seem to share the same confusion. are we all dum dums?

 

[Truant]

I wish the audience discovered that Poe survived at the same time as Finn. It was pretty obvious, but would have made for a better moment.

 

[Glass Shark]

.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

It's trying to have its cake and eat it. We try to redeem Finn by saying his participating in the Order wasn't his fault. But we also say it's ok to slaughter Stormtroopers by the planet-load because they participate in the Order?

A major theme of the OT is that nobody is beyond redemption. Vader, total villain, is allowed a face turn. Luke insists to the last on giving Vader that opportunity. Finn, a Stormtrooper with a rich interior life, doesn't even stop to consider that other 'troopers might have their own interior lives.

If Stormtroopers are literally faceless then murdering them isn't so bad: they signify not-humans, dramatically: they're barely-sapient hurdles for heroes to leap. When you make them abused victims worthy of wearing a hero's (literal) mantel, the signifiers change.

If they had their own lives they would do like he does and not slaughter innocent people.
Again, Finn is a newcomer to entering the battle, where the Stormtroopers on Jakku could be veterans. Plus its an army, he isn't automatically supposed to like everyone. Hell I can't stand people I work with.

read this post

Finn gets upset by the space Nazi dying and smearing blood on him because he realizes that could be him. He doesn't necessarily give a shit about the one who died, or that his "buddies" are dying around him, it freaks him out because in that moment he realizes they are all being asked to give their lives for the cause, a cause he is seeing first hand is fucked up and involves indiscriminately slaughtering innocents and executing prisoners. That moment is him realizing his life has been a lie, his "buddies" are cool with dying for the First Order, have no problem killing anyone for any reason. The blood represents his potential death for a cause he doesn't believe in, so he wants the fuck out, and takes his first opportunity to do so.

You make it sound like he was killing an army.

Other than stopping the troopers from killing him in the tie fighter and in the Millennium Falcon. Fin killed 3-4 Stormtroopers man to man on screen. And both times it was defending himself in the middle of battle at Maz's place.

 

[The Librarian]

Yup.


It's like the NeoGAF threads on GamerGate... stuff like this usually roots out people who have prejudice in their hearts.

Farm boy blows up impenetrable planet destroying space station while effectively blind = legit

Scavenger girl with more experience overall (being a lone survivor/fighter/mechanic/pilot) beats a guy who is bleeding out from a fucking bowcaster wound and has already fought someone else and killed his own father = mary sue

Well, yeah, because Luke shot space rats

 

[LegendofLex]

I also think him and Poe's immediate bromance was how you'd expect them to act in movie 2 and not movie 1.

Poe's a charismatic and experienced leader; Finn's a disillusioned and disgraced Stormtrooper who wants to do the right thing but doesn't really know what he's doing.

I think it's totally natural that they'd bond over the shared experience of escaping the clutches of the First Order together, Finn getting the chance to do some good for a change and Poe encouraging him as he settles into his first real combat situation.

It's in Poe's character to be encouraging and positive; it's in Finn's character to be excited when he's being encouraged and doesn't have Phasma breathing down his neck for a change.

 

[Skinpop]

It's okay to slaughter Stormtroopers because they're stormtroopers. This is basic Star Wars. Have you ever questioned, at any point, why nobody else on the good guy's side, in ANY previous Star Wars movie, had zero problems murdering agents of a genocidal, planet-killing regime?

This whole line of conversation is kinda baffling, especially if you actually do have any familiarity with the conventions of this film series.

and this is the problem. by introducing that backstory it just doesn't work anymore. stormtroopers aren't faceless murderers anymore but are now victims of brainwashing, child abuse and kidnapping. it was a huge mistake to mess with this stuff.

 

[Blader]

They shot for 3 days on Skellig island, I think they left at least 1-2 scenes on the cutting room floor. That last helicopter shot, the whole scene feels like another bandaid solution to whatever problems they were having because Iger wouldn't give them another 6 months.
You can feel these seams everywhere in the movie and it is the most frustrating feeling.
Seeing this new charismatic cast and what could have been if they would have cooked the script and planning for XIII and IX longer before starting to serve it.

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/12/28/star-wars-storytelling-and-fixing-it-in-post

That article is absolute shit. "I made a movie once, and it was a complete mess, so I can tell when other filmmakers are having problems too!"

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the movie was always slated to end with Rey finding Luke. And Skellig Michael is a remote and heavily restricted location, it makes sense that they could only shoot three days there and only got that much out of it. Three days is not a very long time when you consider how difficult just setting up those shots must have been.