NaDannMaGoGo
Member
Which one would that be complimenting? I tapped out in Transformers 2 roughly an hour in...and I wish I had done the same in Clannad.
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Spring Anime 2015 |OT| The Disappearance of YEAARRT!
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Which one would that be complimenting? I tapped out in Transformers 2 roughly an hour in...and I wish I had done the same in Clannad.
No, I definitely agree with you there. I actually hate when the subjectivity argument is taken to ridiculous lenghts just to argue for the sake arguing.
It's more about the fact that quite a few posters with aligning tastes have been banging on the Clannad drum hard enough that I deem it warrants checking out, and going by what I've seen of your comments, you are a good bit pickier on what you consider to be good.
Eh, I don't know. Maybe I was just venting. I'm having a stupidly frustrating moment at work atm. Sorry if that came out like an attack, but your comment does have a whiff of that very criticism of taste. I doubt anyone could argue that there is anything *really* wrong in thinking that Clannad is a good anime, whatever his/her opinion on the series would be.
Jex
Member
That's fine. I certainly won't deny that people have enjoyed the show in the past and are currently enjoying the show now.
I would also point out that it's a work which has been widely and decisively decried as bad and to be avoided.
At the same time, you raised a question (presumably, a hypothetical) and I simply responded. I'm certainly not looking to engage in any opinion shaming, just to state that substantial criticism of the work suggests.
names2hard4you
Member
Clannad After Story ALL FINISHED
This was quite the trip, goddamn. I don't think I can do another show like this in a good while lol, emotions ran waaaay too deep. I was confused with what I thought was the end on episode 22, but then after watching episode 24, and reading a synopsis online that
everything made sense.
I laughed, I cried, I really enjoyed my time with the show, I'll definitely remember and keep the experience with me for a good while. Thanks guys, really! Now I have to avoid another one of these for the next while!
This was quite the trip, goddamn. I don't think I can do another show like this in a good while lol, emotions ran waaaay too deep. I was confused with what I thought was the end on episode 22, but then after watching episode 24, and reading a synopsis online that
talks about the VN gameplay mechanic of collecting the orbs of light in different timelines, something that is in the show but never really explicitly explained,
I was just happy to see everyone alive an well in the end.
R_thanatos
Member
Shinji matou fans , exist ??????
Seriously ?
Both anime and movie did all they could to try to make him as unsympathic as possible and the guys is a *ss in the games. There is , like no redeeming point for this character.
Does those fans even played heaven feel ?
You're on a good path , just remember to bow to *god* whenever you can.
SliceSabre
Banned
I have to say I've always heard Clannad talked of in a positive light rather than a negative one.
Jex
Member
With regards to just general forum chatter, the participants of this particular thread (obviously not the current ones) have tended to be fairly anti-Key decrying it as cheap melodrama and trauma porn.
The field of "anime criticism" is populated by amateurs and bloggers so you can certainly find plenty of people who defend the show. Outside of that, pretty much every "Anime Reviewer/Commentator" that I personally follow has crapped on the show, whether that's the cast of AWO, Dynamite in the Brain, Fast Karate for the Gentlemen (ostensibly a comedy podcast) among others.
This one of the reasons that I work hard to find good, critical reviewers to follow because most people who write about anime do a piss poor job of critiquing it.
That tore me up so much.... So much... Oh god, thinking about it is... unbelievable.
Fushigiboshi no☆ Futagohime (Twin Princesses of the Mysterious Star)
I can’t believe it’s over now. My first Magical Girl show and I seriously think it’s the best there is already. Princess Fine and Princess Rein are incredible girls with hearts that know no bounds, big and beautiful, full of compassion, love, kindness, caring and sincerity.
51 Episodes passed by so quickly; I really need to watch the sequel, I’m so happy a sequel even exists. The story is great, it starts off very slow, but it picks up and then keeps on rolling. Solving issues with the Prominence or sometimes even without, never gets old. I love the transformation scenes and I love the Prominence power, fantastic stuff.
I love Princess Fine and Rein’s dancing they do, it’s so adorable. The seiyu are amazing too, listening to the two of them speaking at the same time, it’s like a harmony; a beautiful duet. The Princesses are all really amazing, even
Altezza
Pearl-Chan and the Sea Kingdom
Pearl
As great as the story was though, I still can’t believe the Kings and Queens of the Kingdoms would believe
Bright-sama
The Opening and Ending of the show (Both ED's), are seriously awesome. So upbeat and catchy, especially the second ending, I love listening to them and just kind of dancing to the tunes, really great stuff.
The art is great, it's very happy and bright, just like a Magical Girl anime should be, loved to watch it, loved to listen to it!! =)
Episode 51 though, I can’t believe they tried to pull what they did, caused me to shed tears because I couldn’t see Princess Rein or Princess Fine lose Poomo, he was so brave for what he did and thank goodness the last
Grace Stone
I love Fushigiboshi no Futagohime, it's a fantastic Magical Girl anime with the cutest girls ever. Their dancing, their voices, their personalities, the way they handle situations, it's all so well done!
ultimatemegax
Member
I'll also add that Clannad/After Story was the last of the trilogy of works from Key adapted by Tatsuya Ishihara/Fumihiro Shimo and the medium of visual novel adaptations had been expanding heavily at the time of release, so there is a bit of a "tireness" of that type of work at play too.
I'd theorize that people who watch Clannad first before the others tend to think more positively on it than Kanon/Air and vice-versa. That's not saying there's not flaws in all three, but I think the mindset to find them and become annoyed by them is more present when you're watching the third or fourth adaptation than the first.
I watched Clannad first and though there are some flaws (the transition from Fuko to Kotomi's arc is awkward as are the parts left out of S1 and put at the start of S2 due to not knowing if they'd do S2), I still enjoyed it (and still enjoy it). It's on my to-watch list this summer after I finish Haruhi again.
Cornbread78
Member
Kanon ep. 22-END:
OK, someone please explain it to me like I'm 10 years old. What was that ending? What was the
What just happened? I am so cunfused.
So confusing. There was basically no ending, no closure, no nothing. Is there a short film to accompany this? WTF.
OK, someone please explain it to me like I'm 10 years old. What was that ending? What was the
final wish?
Mikoto was a fox that dissappeared, but she was real too, with the same likes? Ayo was a ghost, but we knew that, she was also the narrator, but we knew that as well.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
This is definitely a big issue with the state of "anime criticism". There's simply no real strong outlet for it, so you're limited to searching for individuals who have decent taste and the ability to articulate what makes something good or bad. Sadly, these people seem to be like a needle in a haystack, and the majority of people reviewing anime have little interest in doing more than saying what they like and praising Key and Okada for "the feels". One value this thread has offered, despite its flaws, is generally allowing for more critical discussion between people who want more from their anime. Sadly there doesn't seem to be much of a market for it elsewhere. Even the maligned field of games journalism makes anime criticism look like a joke.
Congratulations, you made it further than I did! As far as I'm aware, there's nothing more to Kanon other than the anime, unlike Clannad. The VN might provide more closure, but I'm not sure.
names2hard4you
Member
I speak as someone that enjoys slices of life and anime in general. I never watched any of their other works so Clannad was my first (and will probably remain to be the only one for a while, can't deal with this type of shows). Now I really enjoyed it, and sure some of you might really care about stellar writing, story, characters, etc and so do I. But how many times have you watched a show or played a game that reviews deem as mediocre while you enjoy it a ton? I always try to form my own opinions So I avoid looking at critics before I watch a show or buy a game. I'll read a little bit about it, and watch it for myself. But anyway, did I have some problems with Clannad? I sure did.
For one,
They do show up everywhere in the show, but you don't really know what they are, and when episode
drops, you are left thinking "Uh, so magic happens". There's more of course, like how the first season's tone was completely different from the second, how tropes were pretty much used from start to finish, but that doesn't matter. Everyone has their own opinion, some like some stuff that other's don't and that's okay. I liked it.
For one,
like I mentioned before, the light orbs were critical parts of the VN mechanics, you were required to collect them in order to achieve the true ending. Tomoya gathers these across multiple realities by bringing someone happiness.
22
Cornbread78
Member
That emotional roller coaster is shy you really need to watch those final episodes back to back. It would be hard to carry over some of those emotions from day to day if you had to.
The orbs symbolized all of the good deads Tomoya had done throughout S1 and the After story helping everyone else, these build towards him being granted his miracle, and when he choose not to forget about meeting Nagisa that was the final step for the miracle to occur. Usio's name was a symbol for the entire series as a whole and by him accepting his current fate, he was able to move on with the miracle. This is why each little detail that you didn't notice while watching S1 comes back into play in S2, especially the orbs of light and that stupid damn Dango song that makes you cry when they all sing it together in the After Story. The pictures of Tomoya, Nagisa and baby Ushio were awesome! , as you can see many do not appreciate, having the "miracle" option there as the ending, but I felt it was great in a sense of closure and being rewarded for all the good deads he had done. He learned from his mistakes and accepted fate, but was still able to get a new fate. Yes, contridictory, but it works with the story in my mind..
You're going to need to read the wiki to understand the Makoto arc a little better. For Ayu... the way I believe it is,
is that because of her coma, she was able to create a spirit to continue living out her life as a little girl, waiting until Yuuichi came back so that they can be united again. Makoto is a fox, or a Yuoko as they call them. There is totally an ending.... Yuuichi was able to remember why he blocked his past away, he thought Ayu died when she fell from that great tree, but instead she was in a coma. The closure is that Ayu and Yuuichi can now live a life together. For the Older Makoto girl, that's the Makoto that Yuuichi had a crush on when he was young, the young Makoto girl took that name because Yuuichi talked to the fox about her all the time, the wiki expands on this.
http://kanon.wikia.com/wiki/Makoto_Sawatari For the wiki
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=161158561&postcount=7978 < My Kanon review =)
I know, right? I got out of that faze many, many years ago.
names2hard4you
Member
Yeah doing it the way you told me was definitely the best way. I wouldn't have been able to deal with the bumps on the road that come on the second half any other way. I think they dealt with the story quite nicely. This whole thing was connected from start to finish, but it was definitely meant to be seen in VN form in my opinion. I feel like if I had read the many arcs leading up to the True End, having to achieve it myself, would make for even more impact on me. Regardless, I really enjoyed my time with it. Like I said earlier, I will have to give myself a break before watching another one of these.
iRAWRasaurus
Banned
If you do have any good critic reviewers, let me know.
Personally beliefs, there is something wrong with everything and noting is ever perfect. And to actually understand the positives, you have to look at the negatives as well.
Cornbread78
Member
I feel I missed an episode or something, bucause,
They showed her falling out of teh tree, but never anything about her being in a COMA, it skips all of that after he remembers, if she is in a coma, how can they be together? I must have missed an episode in there somehow.... unless they did not have it in the anime...
Jex
Member
Well, I mean, you kind of have to if you ever want to know what anime to watch. How else are you supposed to find out that information?
Why not? Who cares if they're called an anime "reviewer" or "blogger", if they can speak eloquently about something and analyze accordingly, why wouldn't you take them in a serious light? I get that finding a person like that is a needle in a haystack, but I don't know why you'd need to make such sweeping generalizations about everyone who writes about anime in that format. For instance, Ben Ettinger of Anipages is one such uncommon person (who posts irregularly), but when he speaks I listen and I'm not sure why anyone would neglect that for the sake of being jaded.
Which version of Kanon are you watching? MikeHattsu told me to watch 2006 version, 24 episodes.
Cornbread78
Member
Crap, Episode #23 said "Finale"
Oh god..... =( I feel like I just ruined everything.
Cornbread78
Member
my own falt... damn. Watching #24 now.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I just think that tendency (whether DTL is being serious we'll never know, its DTL) to excuse the bad traits of irredeemable assholes to portray them as sexy bad-boys has unfortunate implications.
JK Rowling used to get really upset at people who would perform the titular "Draco in Leather Pants" trope - that was where fanfics would gloss over the fact that Draco Malfoy is consistently a racist asshole in order to write slashfics where he hooks up with Hermione. Because, you know, he's clearly a horrible asshole and you shouldn't want to date a person like Draco.
UltraGunner
Banned
Fate/Stay Night UBW 18
I kinda felt the big reveal was pretty obvious, since they have been heavily hinting at it since the first few eps.
I kinda felt the big reveal was pretty obvious, since they have been heavily hinting at it since the first few eps.
So sorry, I'm so sorry. I should have been more intelligent in checking if you watched everything =(...
Jex
Member
I also enjoy reading https://camonte.wordpress.com/ for short pieces on individual artists.
I follow @br1anwuzhere for cinematography analysis.
I listen to http://www.awopodcast.com/ primarily for their discussion or older titles and broad knowledge.
Etc etc.
I follow @br1anwuzhere for cinematography analysis.
I listen to http://www.awopodcast.com/ primarily for their discussion or older titles and broad knowledge.
Etc etc.
PshycoNinja
Member
While I don't bemoan anime reviewers, I personally don't really let someone else paint a picture of positivity or negativity before I go and watch a show. I go into a show just betting on it being good.
I prefer to take the positivity route. I try not to go into any show thinking I am going to hate it. Because then what's the point?
So I watch PV's and read summaries on shows to see if it peaks my interest and then do the 3 episode thing.
I don't need an anime reviewer to re-enforce an opinion I have. If I like something, I like it. If other people like it than we have something similar to talk about and discuss.
I know what I like and don't like. So personally I don't need an anime reviewer or blogger to tell me otherwise.
If your argument against "taste relativism" is limited free time, the general reception suggests that Clannad is in fact a (more than) safe time investment for a ridiculous portion of anime watchers.
Even assuming "there are clearly good and bad works", heaps of anime watchers' view of which category Clannad belongs in differs from yours. Their view may be less educated, less critical, less sensible, less experienced, less academic, less Correct, but that should not devalue the good times people have had and will have with it.
It's important that critics voice their opinion, so that people can have a preview of whether something popular actually fits in with their preferences, but when you assertively tell a specific someone that "watching Clannad is a poor choice", your assertion becomes wrong the moment that specific someone ends up liking Clannad. These kind of assertions can be made when you know that the person's preferences (call them The Correct Preferences) match your prediction, but I don't think it's time-efficient or nice to blindly turn people away from Clannad, or anything else. Maybe you should just say you think Clannad is a bad work, explain or quote why, and let people decide what to make of it...
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
My wife had no clue at all. She was genuinely shocked and confused about the implications. Also, she was confused why Archer did all sorts of the things he did throughout the series based on Archer's apparent goal.
Cornbread78
Member
No worries at all; It's my own fault completely.... The episode titles were misleading dammit, I should have paid more attention to MyAnimeList...
PshycoNinja
Member
I am looking forward to it. I hope you enjoy.
I am so glad you liked it. I know some don't agree but it's nice to see others find the beauty in Clannad's storytelling and message. I am glad you let us have some of your time to watch the show. And go for a break, I agree. Maybe watch a comedy or two like Bala & Test.
Thanks for taking the journey and I hope you will share your experience with others.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I applaud anyone who has the strength to sit through a KEY show because I would probably explode like Corvo if I had to watch that much bullshit melodrama
I like it, a lot. Melodrama and all, the emotions are amazing to feel, the situations and everything. I'd love to watch all of the KEY shows some day, I think they're quite well done. Poor sensitive me though.... need to take a break after watching them because of the feels.
names2hard4you
Member
I am so glad you liked it. I know some don't agree but it's nice to see others find the beauty in Clannad's storytelling and message. I am glad you let us have some of your time to watch the show. And go for a break, I agree. Maybe watch a comedy or two like Bala & Test.
Thanks for taking the journey and I hope you will share your experience with others.
Well of course, but I watched it for myself too since like I said, for years I had been always waiting for that push from someone that would get me to watch it aha. And yeah, I'm actually gonna go back to playing Xenoblade since I haven't finished, and just watching this season's weekly stuff. I will definitely check Charlotte out next season, since I really enjoyed Angel Beats in the past and now Clannad. It'll be interesting to see what they do with it.
Jex
Member
I broadly understand your point, but I fundamentally disagree with it for a number of reasons.
First and foremost, there's practical considerations to take into account. I physically cannot 'test' every piece of art in existence to see whether it's worth investing my time/money in. No-one can. So, we turn to critics (in all forms) to steer us towards the best content.
Also, the procedure of 'testing' a show in such manner has it's flaws. Plenty of shows go awful half way through despite a really strong start. Other works may appear weak in the beginning but grow stronger later (even though this is much more unusual). Between those two extremes you have 'slow burns' which reveal their quality slowly over time and so cannot be judged in such a short amount of time.
Beyond that, deciding what to watch based on PV's and summaries will only take you so far. Most PR material is designed to make a work look good and is therefore often deeply deceptive. Moreover, if you decided to watch something based on whether it looks good from the marketing you're going to end up missing a ton of great content that has poor/unappealing marketing.
In addition to that, deciding what to watch based off of your own preconceived notions of what will interest you is extremely limiting. You're unlikely to run into challenging or different works that force you to consider your own tastes. Without encountering such challenge you're unlikely to grow as a consumer of media.
On top of all that you have to add in all the anime which have ever been made over the last few decades. How are you supposed to know which of those works are worth checking? What about great works that no-one in the current scene talks about, you'll probably be missing out on those because they aren't part of popular discourse.
Finally, the you seem to misunderstand the purpose of reading criticism. It's not to affirm your own tastes. It exists to break down and understand the art we consume. Great critics will enrich your understand of a movie, or a book, or an anime. They'll place it within the context of the history of the medium. They'll pull open and explore it's thematic and social implications. They'll breakdown how a masterful director manages to invoke emotion within the audience, or force an audience to consider an idea that they hadn't engaged in before.
I don't feel like the art of criticism, diminished as it may be by internet populism, needs much defence.
Understanding that the world is filled with other individuals who possess experience and insight that you do not is an important developmental phase. One day you will look back at things you previously found enjoyment in and question the merit the old you had ever attached to the work. The path of ignoring and avoiding clashing opinions and alternative perspectives holds its small-mindedness close to bigotry and anti-intellectualism, all while easily adopting the role of victim.
something something anime. my arms hurt. art is nice. be open minded. i haven't been following this conversation and i have never watched anything related to key. i'm going to go shitpost in other places.
NaDannMaGoGo
Member
Give Katawa Shoujo a try then. Has feels and is actually competently written with characters that are human beings with ambitions of their own. None of this "hero MC solves all the problems of mentally retarded moe blobs just because" with the major characteristics of these blobs being 'cute'.
Though it's a VN, but you can get it for free.
And if you want good romance anime with feels, there's KareKano for instance.
edit:
That is, unlike you literally require melodrama. Then forget about these and, dunno, take a look at Your Lies in April.
Cornbread78
Member
Kanon: End
So it makes a littel more sense now, I skipped an episode because of the way ep. 23 was titled, don't call the second to last episode the "Finale" It's totay garbage. the episode was cute, but you can tell they strugled to fit it all into the 24 mins alloted and skipped many visual moments that could have really driven home the point. I guess, I'll go back to watching Kill la Kill and start watching Honey and Clover on Hulu. This could be fun.
Is Honey and Clover a good love story or is it more slice of life/drama? I think I need another Cross Ange to watch right now.....
So it makes a littel more sense now, I skipped an episode because of the way ep. 23 was titled, don't call the second to last episode the "Finale" It's totay garbage. the episode was cute, but you can tell they strugled to fit it all into the 24 mins alloted and skipped many visual moments that could have really driven home the point. I guess, I'll go back to watching Kill la Kill and start watching Honey and Clover on Hulu. This could be fun.
Is Honey and Clover a good love story or is it more slice of life/drama? I think I need another Cross Ange to watch right now.....
names2hard4you
Member
Eagerly waiting for a sequel to this, which is apparently almost done localizing. This VN was brilliant in my eyes. Got so many goosebumps out of so many scenes.
Not really. I didn't have to check a review for any of the shows I've seen, or games I've played or movies I've seen for that matter. I don't expect a pat on the back mind you, everyone's different, and since reviews are commonplace, with many aggregator sites out there, I guess it's obvious that they are of use to many people. I've never bothered with them myself. I've always known what I've wanted to watch straight away. Call it love at first sight, but I've always either taken a liking to something from the first moment Ive seen an image of it, or the OP or a piece from the soundtrack, and when I haven't taken a liking to it, I never really pursue it further.
In the end, I like the show to speak for itself. A review will just set the tone, spoil the surprise, or at best tell me what I want to hear. I see plenty of people dishing out crap scores to shows I live and die by like Patlabor, but I just ignore it, because I know I want to watch it, otherwise I wouldn't be looking at it in the first place. In that instance, a positive review just reaffirms my position and a negative review just makes me disregard that person.
I find that when I do have a quick gander at a review, it just becomes a game of lets see if that person agrees with my stance and if they don't, then...they don't. I guess it's more of a "I love this show, lets see if any like-minded people are around here so we can chat about how awesome the show is", you know, the coveted scenario we all find ourselves in.
I guess being a more touchy feely person, words never do much for me. If I'm interested in a show, I just watch the opening and usually that will grab me. That's how it is for me anyways.
I've just never liked reviews or found them to be of any help, I guess their opinions play a more pivotal role to peoples decision than I thought. I find it a fools errand to try and read/listen to one, as I find with anime people can be very definitive about how they describe them. This show is bad, this one is good. When somebody goes in depth about the inner workings of a show, I like that, but thats more of a post-mortem.
In general, my mind is made up at the first moment and a review will just tell me what I want to hear, or its disregarded anyways, because I wouldn't want a few paragraphs to deter me, especially when I've liked stuff others have shown their disdain for in the past. Even my own stupid ass reviews are stupid. Have I ever convinced anybody to pick up a show or film with one of them? Nope, but thats fine because thats never been my intention, I just like to ramble and I guess writing my feelings down in words makes me feel slightly less crazy.
I guess the concept for anime reviews has never worked for me, or reviews in general so I always snicker at the notion of them. Dumb of me I know, but I can't help it. I don't need to see a review to know I'm going to be buying Splatoon day one, and I don't need one to tell me that I'm going to watch Romeo's Blue Skies.
You said exactly what I wanted to say, but without sounding like a crazy person, thanks
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